Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

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Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:44 pm

Hi Jimbo

Two things occurred to me as I was reading the above:
(1) Barbara Jean (who calls herself "Mart2542" on the Reddit message board) says that her grandfather remembered the address of Red McNamara’s house (290 Loudon Avenue) and remembered shooting birds from the turret window. Should not that be enough to link him to the Red McNamara family? The only doubt for me is whether that information was reliable; it was given to her by her grandmother, most likely, as she herself was only 9 when her grandfather died - her grandmother had also given her some other information which Barbara had later found to be incorrect.
(2) John McNamara’s mother was Mary McCoy, but it had never occurred to Barbara Jean that aunt Laura and Uncle Will might be McCoys (not McNamaras). It falls to “Puhalalu” on the message board to tell her that h/she that has found a William R McCoy owning a plot in the Jackson map just south of Campbelltown. Barbara Jean gets back to puhalulu and says “Thank you! etc, etc ” So it seems “aunt” Laura and “uncle” Will really were her grandfather’s aunt and uncle.

Anyway, Barbara Jean will be delighted to hear that she can look at the St. Paul’s baptism register without going to Lexington. That was a great find.

Thanks for explaining the confusion about the ages reported for Bridget Williams McNamara. You haven’t said how you got back to Dromcolliher. Did Percy French whisper in your ear?: https://dromheritage.ie/PercyFrench.html

Your mention of the border states between north and south in the Civil War reminded me that William Henry Hurlbert seemed to see some similarity between them and Ireland, but his explanation is too difficult for me. If you go to “Ireland Under Coercion: The Diary of an American,” by William Henry Hurlbert, Vol. II (1888): https://www.gutenberg.org/files/14511/1 ... 4511-h.htm and scroll down to “Epilogue,” you will see that he starts the epilogue by saying, “Not once, but a hundred times, during the visits to Ireland recorded in this book, I have been reminded of the state of feeling and opinion with existed in the Border States, as they were called, of the American Union, after the invasion of Virginia by a piratical band under John Brown …”

Sheila

P.S. I haven’t watched Downton Abbey at all.

Jimbo
Posts: 591
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:43 am

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Tue Jul 26, 2022 4:53 am

Hi Sheila,

Yes, I agree that the reliability of the information provided to Barbara Jean about her grandfather John McNamara (≈1884 - 1947) might be an issue. In that regard, when you state that "John McNamara's mother was Mary McCoy", it would be better to state "John McNamara's mother was reported to be Mary McCoy on his Social Security application and railroad retirement paperwork". And the fact that John McNamara consistently gave a birth date of 30th of April on various records doesn't make it true until a birth or baptism record can be found to prove it. And so on with the other information provided.

The McCoy angle is very good. It is not stated in the posting that you referenced, but William R. McCoy was married to an Emma, not a Laura. However, it might point us to whose farm(s) John McNamara might have been working on in Preble County. I forgot to mention in my last posting, that Barbara Jean had made a third separate posting on the same topic only 1 month ago (the posting history is available if you click on her username). It doesn't provide any new information (actually less), and the 40 plus comments are pretty much the same as the prior postings, but it does appear that the identity of "uncle Will" and "aunt Laura" still has not been resolved:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Genealogy/comm ... ggestions/

My approach was to research the McNamara families of Lexington, and put aside for the moment the various stories handed down about John McNamara (≈1884 - 1947). Sheila, let's not swap horses in midstream. The reliability of the evidence is an important issue, but so is the availability of records in Fayette County. The baptism and marriage records for St. Paul's Church in Lexington are readily available on-line, which is great, but how about other records?
A HEAP OF BLACKENED RUINS
Is Fayette's Court House, Which Together With Valuable Treasures, Is Destroyed by Fire Yesterday, Starting in the Belfry Stairs,
THE FLAMES MAKE QUICK WORK OF THE EDIFICE

One of the most disastrous visitations of fire that Lexington has ever experienced, and one that for a time threatened destruction to the best part of the business district of the city made its appearance about the middle of the forenoon yesterday and before the flames had spent their fury the Court House, with some of its most valuable treasures, had been reduced to ruins.

The awful transformation was the work of less than an hour, and today only blackened wall enclosing the disfigured basement and second floor remain to remind one of the beautiful and costly edifice that stood on its foundations yesterday.

. . . [many paragraphs later] . . .

With the first alarm of fire the clerks and various officials had either carried out the valuable records or put them in vaults, and except private losses by Judge Parker and others, all valuable papers were saved.
. . .

The Morning Herald, Lexington, 15 May 1897
Were all valuable papers saved or only the most important? Unlike in Ireland where civil birth, marriage, and death records are centrally located at the irishgenealogy website, in the USA you have to often go to each individual county, and their helpfulness varies greatly. "Our office does not do research" is the first sentence on the Fayette County Clerk's genealogy page. Death certificates are commonly located at a county clerk's office, but the helpful Fayette County Clerk doesn't say boo about their availability:

https://www.fayettecountyclerk.com/web/ ... search.htm

The Kentucky Department of Libraries and Archives website is much more helpful about the availability of pre-1911 death records:

https://kdla.ky.gov/researchers/vitalst ... ofilm.aspx

However, it is bad news. Death certificates for Lexington are only available starting 1894, and for Fayette County starting 1896. Perhaps during the fire of 1897, the Fayette county clerks didn't save all the old death records after all? The City of Louisville has death records back to 1866. Microfilm roll numbers are provided, but these records are also available on the ancestry website ($). FamilySearch (free) has Kentucky death records (1911-1967), here is the 18 September 1912 death record for Mathew McNamara, Jr. :

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NSDT-WRZ

We don't know the parents of John McNamara (≈1884-1947), but we know he was an orphan. If Lexington and Fayette County death records were available for the late 1870's and 1880's, it would be possible to search for any McNamara's who died at a young age (say, age 18 to 40's) in search of John's father and mother. There are not that many McNamara's in Kentucky compared to New York City. Would also have to keep in mind that a child could be sent to an orphanage when only one parent was deceased, and the child could not be cared for by the surviving parent. Or perhaps even both parents were unable to care for their child.

I'm purposely ignoring every story that has been passed down to Barbara Jean about the parents of John McNamara (≈1884-1947) and keeping an open mind to all possibilities. Including that John McNamara was not born in Lexington.

I discovered that the Lexington death records were missing when trying to obtain one for Mathew "Red Mack" McNamara. He was buried at Calvary Cemetery in Lexington, but no year or date of death was chiseled into the small "Father" marker which surrounds the large McNamara headstone edifice, photos available on the findagrave website:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/175 ... w-mcnamara

The contributor has a date of birth of "25 Dec 1822" for Mathew McNamara, but no source for this information, so likely bogus. For the "Mother" headstone, belonging to Bridget Williams McNamara, findagrave has 1825 as a year of birth which is plumb crazy. Among their children, there are two Mathew McNamara's listed on findagrave; the one with dates "1876-1876" should be eliminated. So it's difficult to trust that Mathew "Red Mack" McNamara died in 1887 based solely on what is being reported on findagrave. Luckily, however, there is support in the comments: "Mathew McNamara, 64, dies at home at Spring and Main." according to "June 29, 1887 Lexington Daily Transcript p. 1 col. 7".

Searching the newspaper archives, I was able to find additional support for the timing of his death:
Mrs. Mathew McNamara has qualified as executrix of the will of Mathew McNamara, deceased. The estate is worth about $40,000.
The Courier-Journal, Louisville, Kentucky, 8 July 1887
The above article is from a Louisville newspaper. Searching Lexington newspapers for the same time period, there were zero search results. Why? The Lexington newspapers included in on-line newspaper archives, that I have access to, all start in 1888 (there are a few early 19th century papers). I also checked Library of Congress, Chronicling America, but the newspapers listed appear to be on microfilm at various libraries, not digitized and available to search on-line. Also, the collection at the Lexington Library (links in prior posting) appears to be mostly the early decades of the 19th century, none in the 1880's.

That is more bad news as far as searching for the parents of John McNamara (≈1884 - 1947). If he was indeed orphaned in Lexington, the local newspapers would have covered the possible death of his mother or father. The death records for Fayette county don't appear to exist for the 1880's, the issue is not one of on-line availability. For Lexington newspapers from 1880 to 1887, it is not very clear if they will be digitized and available on-line in the future.

This is of importance, of course, only if you believe that John McNamara (≈1884 - 1947) was born in Lexington. It is interesting on his Social Security application that John apparently was not aware that Lexington was located in Fayette county (from a reddit comment).

With regards to Preble County in Ohio, where John McNamara (≈1884-1947) had worked on the farm of uncle Will and aunt Laura, the newspaper archives only had the period 1847 to 1887. However, across the state border in Richmond, Indiana, the local news of Eaton, Ohio was included in a social column:
EATON, OHIO.
Eaton, O., Aug. 30.—Mr. and Mrs. Harry G. King are home . . .

John McNamara was here from Cincinnati visiting friends.

The third consecutive defeat for the Eaton ball team was tendered them Sunday at the South Side park by the Cincinnati Pirates. The score stood 4 to 2. The game was one of the most interesting played here this season, both team playing good ball. . . . The game was witnessed by the largest crowd of the season.

Palladium-Item, Richmond, Indiana, 30 August 1909
In 1909, John McNamara was still single. One year later in 1910 he returned to Eaton with his wife and child (as BJM mentioned in reddit postings). Pity that the local Eaton newspaper for the period of John McNamara's time there (say, 1898 to 1905) as there could be references to who he was living with.
Mr. and Mrs. John McNamara and child of Cincinnati spent Saturday and Sunday in Eaton with friends.

Palladium-Item, Richmond, Indiana, 30 August 1910
Sheila, thank you very much for the link to the Dromcolliher song by Percy French. That was great, wasn't expecting to hear from him again. It was an interesting article with its mention of Anthony McAuliffe. In the Griffith Valuation for the town of Dromcolliher, Bridget Williams at plot 17c was on Pound Street; a Richard McAuliffe at plot 4 on Market Place, and a John McAuliffe at plot 9 on Chapel Street. On google maps, for the village of Dromcolliher, if you are at the Tasty Chinese Takeaway at "The Square" and head southeast (on R522), you'll come upon the Charleville Road turnoff (a Y), verge right following the sign for "Henry's Cafe" and this is "Pound Street" where Bridget Williams lived in the 1850's. Henry's Cafe on the left has a large Irish tricolor flag out front, a beautiful old stone building. The houses on Pound Street look very old, but have no idea if they would have been around in the 1850's. Curious how the widow Bridget Daley Williams of Pound Street, her sister Elizabeth Daley, and brother Patrick Daley, all from Dromcolliher, ended up in Lexington, Kentucky.

Sheila, to discover their baptism records at Drumcollogher, I simply searched on the ancestry website for any Williams born in Ireland to a father named Thomas Williams and mother named Bridget Daly. This led to probably two names, as I remember, and had to tweak various spellings of Daly and Thomas to obtain the four Williams that I did. The marriage record was then easy to find, as well as the GV report. I wasn't expecting to find any results but having the parents, and sibling names from USA records it ended up being very easy (but would never have attempted this if I had to pay for each individual search as required in the past). The missing James Williams, or Jacobus, might still be in the parish records, hidden in a strange transcription.

To be continued,

Sduddy
Posts: 1826
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:08 am

Hi Jimbo

Thank you for that swift reply! It brings home to me just how much you work you have done, in spite of the difficulty with records, i.e. lack of records, or unavailability of records online.

You’ve also done a good job with locating the home place of Bridget Daley Williams (in Pound Street, Dromcolliher).

McCoy is not a Clare name (the only McCoy in Co. Clare in 1901 is from Co. Limerick), but the name is to be found in Co. Kerry and Co. Limerick. I found a William McCoy in Griffith’s Valuation as the Lessor of a vacant house and garden in Pound Street, Dromcolliher. Bridget Williams is listed on the same page. William McCoy has Lot 19, while Bridget Williams is leasing Lot 17c from a Patrick Fitzgerald. I suspect William McCoy is leasing from someone else, and is subletting the vacant lot.
This William McCoy might be uncle Will, but we will never know, of course.

Sheila

Jimbo
Posts: 591
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:14 am

Hi Sheila,

Interesting that William McCoy was a lessor in Dromcolliher and so close to the plot that Bridget Williams was leasing. Is it possible to know the month and year when this Griffith Valuation for Dromcolliher was taken? The timing is very important for the Daley & Williams families who based upon their marriage records appear to have arrived in Kentucky in the early 1850's.

Something to consider, and I don't believe this was mentioned in any of the reddit postings, but John McNamara (≈1884 - 1947) in census reports always stated that both his father and mother were born in Kentucky. As John did here in 1910:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M2D1-3Z2

So the William McCoy of Dromcolliher would be a bad fit to be "uncle" Will, unless his parents later moved to Kentucky and a daughter, Mary, was born there. And McCoy in Kentucky might typically be more Scottish than Irish. I reckon Barbara Jean's reddit posting below might be going in the direction of McCoy's who were of Scottish descent:
Like you, I do believe my grandfather was the child of one of Red Mack's sons with one of the saloon girls. . . . The McCoys were poor mountain people in Kentucky. Maybe one young girl made her way to Lexington to work in one of Red Mack's saloons!
For me, and I reckon many Americans reading the above, the suggestion that the "McCoys were poor mountain people in Kentucky" was a reference to the Hatfield and McCoy Feud. Sheila, not sure if you would have heard of this famous feud being in Ireland. You certainly would have if the movie "Roseanna McCoy" (1949) ever made it to the Irish cinema or television. However, from the movie poster it may have been a little too spicy for conservative Ireland of the 1950's:

Roseanna McCoy, 1949 movie poster.jpg
Roseanna McCoy, 1949 movie poster.jpg (71.29 KiB) Viewed 47382 times

The Hatfield's lived in West Virginia and McCoy's across the river in Kentucky, their family feud is part of American folklore and got its start in the American Civil War. Most of the men from both families fought for the Confederacy, but Asa Harmon McCoy fought in a Kentucky unit for the Union. When Asa returned home, he was murdered, and so started a whole slew of murders lasting decades. Asa Harmon's brother was named Randolph McCoy, who married their first cousin, Sarah McCoy. They were the grandchildren of a William McCoy (born 1750), of Scottish descent, not Irish. Randolph and Sarah McCoy ended up having 17 children together. Many of their sons were murdered in the feud. One daughter, Roseanna McCoy ended up falling in love with a Hatfield which kicked off more bloodshed. According to the family tree on the wikipedia biography, of the 17 children, one daughter was a Mary McCoy born in 1858.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatfield% ... McCoy_feud

Did Mary McCoy leave the rural mountains of Kentucky for the city of Lexington to become a saloon girl at the Palace Hotel owned by Red Mack? Unlikely, of course, but if we pretend she did, it would be inconceivable that one of her McCoy brothers left their Kentucky home, to settle north of the Mason Dixon Line (the broader definition, not the technical one), to settle in Ohio (the home of "uncle" Will). The Mason Dixon Line, I reckon, is an incredibly important clue in solving the true identity of the mysterious John McNamara (≈1884 - 1947).

Getting back to researching the Daley family, the fact that Lexington death records start in 1894 is disappointing and was not easy to determine. The ancestry website has a collection "Kentucky, U.S. Death Records, 1852 -1965" whose title can be misleading. For source information, they list the microfilm numbers but don't provide any dates. Not too many people would know that microfilm roll #7011804 are Lexington death records which start in 1894. I noticed the same issue when searching for Will and Probate records in Tennessee, the ancestry date range was quite broad, but most their records I recall were from Memphis, and none for Knoxville.

To determine the parents of the three siblings from Dromcolliher it would have been good to obtain the death record for Mary Daley Williams (who died after 1881) and Patrick Daley (who died between 1870 and 1875). Elizabeth Daley Riley died in 1905 in Lexington. Unfortunately, what is available is a "Copy of Death Record" with only abbreviated information which doesn't include the names of the parents of the deceased. I discovered this also for her niece, Catherine Williams Sullivan, who died in 1902, and only a "Copy" was available in on-line records. The informant for Elizabeth Riley was likely her only son, Judge John Riley, who as an informant for other death records (e.g., James Williams in 1907) was pretty clued in on his family history. The original death records might be available somewhere.

Another way to determine the parents of the Dromcolliher siblings was the naming of their children. Unfortunately, both sisters had only one son, who if under Irish tradition would have been named after the paternal grandfather of the child. Patrick Daley had seven children, but two children are unknown including a possible first born child. Assuming that Timothy Daley, born about 1859 (no baptism record found), was their first born son, it's possible that the father of the Dromcolliher siblings might be a Timothy Daley?

In the 1870 census for Lexington, there is a Timothy Daly, age 70 (born ≈1800), born in Ireland, occupation "at home" (retired?), living in dwelling #38 by the census taker count. In the prior census page, in dwelling #37 is Mathew "Red Mack" McNamara as well as his wife Bridget Williams McNamara (""age 45"'), the daughter of Bridget Daley Williams. Timothy Daly had real estate valued at $6,000 and personal property of $200, so was quite well-off or "living in high cotton". Dwelling #38 is not your typical household, and not sure what to make of it. Timothy Daley is listed last in the household of 7 individuals, all of whom were reported to be Black except for the Irish born Daley. Two young couples and two children; the men's occupations were "Hand in Hemp Factory" and "Stable Hand". The census taker may have made a mistake, and Timothy Daley really belonged in dwelling #37, and when this page ran out of reporting rows, he got put in with dwelling #38 on the following page.

#37 McNamara: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MX71-FWX
#38 Timothy Daly: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MX71-K2H

Was this Timothy Daley, born about 1800, according to the not so reliable 1870 census taker, the father of the three siblings from Dromcolliher? No, he appears to be their brother. The 1880 census includes a supplementary mortality schedule of those who died in the prior year. Timothy Daley, single, a pike contractor, age 70, so born about 1809, died of consumption in Lexington in August 1879; he had been a resident of Fayette County for 27 years. Since he was single and likely much younger than reported in the 1870 census (similar to Bridget Williams McNamara's age being overstated), he could not be their father, but likely a brother. Timothy Daley had a considerable estate of $6,000 in 1870, his probate or will records might prove this family relationship. Also, if Lexington newspapers for this time period become available on-line in the future, Timothy Daley's obituary might list his siblings.

1880 Mortality Schedule: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:H3F1-JC2M

The fire at the Lexington Court House brought the local fire department under a lot of ridicule in the newspapers with many comparisons to the better prepared Cincinnati fire department. To their defense one city leader noted that "while it has developed that thousands of people knew how to put out the Court House fire, he noticed that nobody but the abused firemen made any effort to do it" (The Morning Herald, Lexington, 20 May 1897).

William T. Sullivan (1865-1949), the son of Catherine Williams Sullivan (1836-1902), and grandson of Bridget Daley Williams, was reported as a fireman and living with his mother in the Lexington 1900 census. Given his age, he was also likely a fireman at the time of the Lexington Court House fire of 1897. The reputation of the Lexington fire department continued to suffer ridicule by the press. In July 1901, it was William Sullivan who was driving the fire truck that broke its axle and never made it to the fire — the grocery and home of his mother Catherine Sullivan of Davis Bottom in Lexington (see article in family tree).

William T. Sullivan (1865-1949) was counted twice in the 1900 census, both at home with his mother and at the fire house with his colleagues. The cause of this double counting was occupational; when his brother James Sullivan was double counted in the 1870 census as living with his mother (on 19 August 1870) and with his aunt (on 5 July 1870), it was due to timing.

1900 Home: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M949-WPT
1900 Fire House: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M94M-RRK

Sheila, in a recent post you mentioned the double counting in the Irish census, and I had looked into this a few years back. The 1901 census was "For members of this family and their visitors, boarders, servants, &c, who slept or abode in this house on the night of Sunday, the 31st of March, 1901." I believe, based upon a small audit sample, that there was considerable double counting in the 1901 Irish census in certain occupations, namely "cattle dealers". The root cause of this census double counting, a topic hitherto not well researched, was the popularity of Irish fairs held on the 1st of April. Below is the Waterford and Limerick Railway advertisement listing all the upcoming April Fairs for 1889 (other years had consistent dates), notice how many were held on the 1st of April:

The_Waterford_News_Sat__Mar_30__1889_.jpg
The_Waterford_News_Sat__Mar_30__1889_.jpg (239.48 KiB) Viewed 47382 times

Cattle dealers in order to attend a Fair on the 1st of April would have had to frequently travel a day or so in advance. Sheila, I noted this during your long thread on Michael G. Considine and Daniel O'Connell:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6831&start=75

Michael Considine, born in 1866, was the son of Patrick Considine and Elizabeth Rickards, and a prosperous Ennis cattle dealer (family tree on page 6 in above link). Not to be confused with his first cousin, and likely double first cousin, Michael Considine, born in 1861, the son of John Considine and Susan Rickards. Sheila, you will recall that it was the elder Michael Considine cousin who as a young victualler on 9 July 1882 was returning to Ennis by car (horse & buggy) having made a delivery at Cullane House, then being boycotted (tsk, tsk), when about 3:20 pm he came upon the scene of an injured and bleeding John Doloughty lying on the road very close to Knockanean School (see page 22 and 23).

Michael Considine, born in 1866, at the time of the 1901 census was in Doonbeg for the April Fair. And his wife Elizabeth Considine, married, accurately did not report her husband as living with her:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... g/1078484/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... t/1070033/

However, Michael Considine in Doonbeg was boarding with another Ennis cattle dealer named John Miller, age 53, married. I'm fairly certain that he was the same as the "John Millar", age 53, married, occupation victualler, living at house 14 Cloughleagh Road in Ennis; thus double counted in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... d/1069248/

So 1 out of 2 cattle dealers / victuallers, granted a rather small audit sample, were double counted in the 1901 Irish Census. Fortunately, it would be possible to expand the sample size as boarding in the Thomas Considine household of Doonbeg were an additional seven cattle dealers:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... g/1078389/

I suspect that the cattle dealer Michael Considine would have made annual visits to the April Fair in Doonbeg, as his father Patrick Considine (≈1830 - 1887), also a cattle dealer, would have done before him. This would account for the random bit of news from County Clare reported in the Irish World newspaper of New York:
Patrick Considine of Ennis donated £10 towards the erection of the Doonbeg Catholic church.

Irish World, New York, 18 December 1875, page 2

Sduddy
Posts: 1826
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:59 am

Hi Jimbo

According to the Irish genealogy toolkit site, Griffith’s Valuation for the county of Limerick was published in 1851-52: https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com ... ionmap.pdf

As for William McCoy, who was lessor of a vacant site in Dromcolliher, I think he is probably the William McCoy whose death was registered in Newcastle Union (Co. Limerick) in 1867, aged 71 (the image is not yet available online). You are probably right in thinking that “uncle” Will McCoy was a descendant of Scotch-Irish early settlers. Thank you for the story of the Hatfield-McCoy very bloody feud. No, I never heard of the feud, or the film. I saw no film until about 1960. I remember “The Ten Commandments” and “The Song of Bernadette” and another one about a first Holy Communion. That last one was preceded by a shorter film on the ascent of Mount Everest by Hillary and Norgay, which was truly terrifying (a climber disappears down a snow-covered crevice).

By the way, the buildings you noted in Dromcolliher are the old creamery and the courthouse. The creamery is of historical interest as it was the first co-operative creamery set up by Horace Plunkett (in 1889). The building was restored about 35 years ago and is now the National Dairy Co-operative Museum and Plunkett Heritage Centre (plus Henry’s Café). According to this architectural survey, most of the original building still remains: https://www.buildingsofireland.ie/build ... r-limerick. It is quite likely that some old houses were demolished in order to make space for the original building. If you have plenty of time, see this video which explains the workings of the creamery at the turn of the 19th century: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6o0uBjYVuw.

I would say that there are many much older buildings in Dromcolliher, as some of the two-storey shops we see today began life as one-storey thatched houses – dating from anywhere in the 19th century, or even before. For anyone interested, this article on roofing in Co. Clare: https://www.clarecoco.ie/services/plann ... hitecture/ includes a link to another article, “Vernacular architecture in Doonbeg, County Clare,” by Risteard Ua Cróinín, in which Ua Cróinin gives us a good clue as to how to detect such a building:
Many of the commercial buildings in the area, including shops, post offices and public houses tend to be two-storey, gable-ended buildings of three, four or five bays. Although many were originally constructed as two-storey buildings during the late 19th or early 20th centuries, it is obvious from the asymmetrical arrangements of the chimneys that many were originally constructed as single storey traditional cottages which were extended upwards at a later time.
I was disappointed to see that Ua Cróinín makes only one mention of galvanized iron, and disappointed that he does not explain that it was often used in the 20th century to cover an old thatched roof. Maybe this was not done in Doonbeg. The galvanize, in time, turned to a rusty colour. It can still be seen all over the place. It was often used for an outhouse, but also for old thatched dwelling houses. The galvanize roof holds a very humble position in Architecture, even in vernacular architecture, but it is a reliable indication of an old building. So I was pleased to see that galvanize is mentioned by Martin Perrill in connection with a dwelling house - see in his article, “The Heritage of Loughnehellia – Exploration of a Holding”: https://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/cocla ... heilla.htm.
The farm house dating from before 1840
The original dwelling-house was a low, thatched, structure comprising a room and a kitchen. The site was cut into a hill with a trench around the foundation to take the water. Notable features include thickness of the walls and the large size of the stones that were used to build them. At some stage, a second, smaller, bedroom was grafted on to the west gable. The roof was lower than that of the existing building. The house was re-roofed with galvanize in 1964 but, by then, the roof of the annex had collapsed and was not replaced. Other features of the house are the small size of the two windows to the front and the low height of the door. The traditional half-door is still there.
Paddy Casey, also, mentions the galvanize, but as “corrugated iron,” and credits it with keeping the house of his ancestors intact: see topic “ Very Rev. Lord Fitzgerald and Vesey listed in Griffiths 1855”: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=59:
'family seat' sounds grand, doesn't it. It is a small abandoned 3-room farmhouse in a muddy field next to the river. Its thatched roof is long gone and has been replaced by corrugated iron which, fortunately, has kept the house intact and prevented it ending up like all the cabhals roundabout.
Jimbo, in one month this thread has made its way from galvanized soldiers to galvanized roofs, but it will make its way back again to the galvanized soldiers, I’m sure.

Sheila

smcarberry
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Location: USA

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by smcarberry » Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:23 pm

Sheila,

Ah, yes, corrugated iron roofs -- as someone who grew up in farm country, I remember those. Sturdy, no-nonsense building material -- gets the job done. Part of the fabric of my formative years.

However, I actually chime in to pass along a somewhat-contemporary (1897) local account of the Hatfield-McCoy feud:
Front page, 2nd column from the left
mention of Randolph McCoy Jr, killed at age 18
1896 wedding of Aaron Hatfield to Mary McCoy
https://archive.org/details/xt7jm61bn47 ... y+mccoy%22

I have a personal connection to Kentucky and that era, in the person of my former mother-in-law, now deceased, who didn't speak much of her childhood years in KY but she didn't hesitate to trash-talk the Hatfield patriarch whom she called "Anse" which she said meant "devil." I guess she was solidly in the McCoy camp, which must have still been a thing decades after violent hostilities cooled down. My m-i-l was born a May, with a Slone mother, in the 1920s, not related to either side so far as I know.

SMC

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:46 am

Hi Jimbo

I see that Griffith’s Valuation shows a Timothy Daly leasing a small parcel of land in the townland of Carroward East in the parish of Dromcolliher. It is in Carroward East that both the creamery and the courthouse are situated.
I was interested to see that there is a neighbourhood called Limerick south of the city of Louisville, Kentucky. One explanation is that many Limerick people came to Louisville in the 1850s: https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/ance ... k-kentucky

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:33 am

Hi Sheila,

Thank you very much for providing the link to the useful map of when the Griffith Valuation was published by Irish county. Pity that County Clare was published so late, in 1855, since many lease holders would have left Ireland in the early 1850's. Would the publish date reflect when the survey was actually taken or could it reflect, say, one year prior?

And thanks for the discovery of Timothy Daly of Carroward East in the parish of Dromcolliher, which would indeed be the townland where the creamery and current museum would be located. I see now that I misinterpreted where Bridget Williams of Carroward West was living in Plot 17c. In Carroward West, Plot 1 consisted of the southern section of the town of Dromcolliher, divided between Chapel Street and Pound Street, with many individual houses (including the vacant house #19 of William McCoy). Plot 2 was south of the town. Plot 17 was over 118 acres leased by Patrick Fitzgerald, of which Bridget Williams in Plot 17c had a tiny plot of land. Within the townland of Carroward West, Plot 17 was on the border of County Cork, and being in the southwest corner of the townland it was a good distance from Pound Street.

This mistake did lead to the interesting Dromcolliher history of the first co-operative creamery set up by Horace Plunkett in 1889. Sheila, thank you for providing those links. To arrive at the Plunkett Museum you must have ignored the instructions I gave, and took a left at the "Y" intersection.

The short history of the Limerick neighborhood in Louisville was interesting. In addition to the Louisville & Nashville Railroad, some Irish would have also gotten work on widening and maintenance of the Louisville and Portland Canal, built to bypass the falls on the Ohio River.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisvill ... land_Canal

Mary Williams Sexton, the eldest daughter born in Dromcolliher to Thomas Williams and Bridget Daley, appears to have lived in Louisville her entire American experience. There is a good chance that the entire Daley and Williams clan were initially in Louisville prior to settling in Lexington. Also there is a greater likelihood that they first arrived in New Orleans than New York, and travelled up the Mississippi & Ohio rivers to get to Kentucky. There was an anti-Catholic immigrant (Irish and German) riot, called "Bloody Monday", in Louisville on 6 August 1855. This Saturday will be the 167th anniversary. If the Daley and Williams families of Lexington had indeed first settled in Louisville, the rioting may have contributed to their decision to move to Lexington.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Monday

Hi Sharon, thank you for the link to the 1896 newspaper article and useful newspaper website. I spent a short time looking for Lexington newspapers in the 1870's and 1880's, but will have to try again another day. The Hatfield-McCoy feud would be well known by everyone in the region and throughout the United States, much more so than it would be today. In trying to find the mysterious "uncle" William of the mysterious John McNamara (≈1884 - 1947), I also came upon a more recent account of the Hatfield-McCoy feud:
Not All Killed Yet.
Nolan, W. Va., Oct. 6.—William McCoy, a young member of the McCoy family, shot and mortally wounded Everett Thompson, a son-in-law of the Hatfields. The tragedy is the outgrowth of a feud which has existed for twenty years.
The Richmond Item, Richmond, Indiana, 6 October 1903
With regards John McNamara (≈1884 - 1947), who was orphaned at a young age according to his family history, I'm surprised that he would know the maiden name of his mother. Mary McCoy was reported twice as his mother, both times late in his life, on his Social Security application and railroad retirement paperwork. But his mother's name was left blank by family members on his detailed funeral contract (an attachment by a reddit contributor in latest posting). Unless John McNamara lived with a McCoy uncle, how would he know the maiden name of his mother? There is a strong possibility that when faced with a railroad retirement or social security application question, and not wanting to answer "I don't know", he simply made up a response, and was twice consistent in doing so. Especially if he wanted to manufacture a family history with roots south of the Mason Dixon Line, the name "Mary McCoy" would be a very good choice as such a well known Kentucky name.

One response to Barbara Jean's latest reddit posting provided a link to the Fayette County Death Register, 1886 - 1902. This is a death register and not individual death records which start in Lexington in 1894. The beginning years are incomplete. 1886 has only 4 entries. 1887 has none, thus no information for Mathew "Red Mack" McNamara. It really starts in 1888. There is a column for names of parents, but for Irish immigrants the response was typically "don't know"; it was mostly completed when children died. In later years, there was no attempt to complete parental information for anyone (death records are available for these years). The register has not yet been indexed by the Family Search website, which is why I didn't come across it when searching for specific names, but it is easy to search this document over a period of years:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cat=222614

The mother of John McNamara (≈1884 - 1947) died when "he was young", but along with his birth year, it would be difficult to pinpoint what year she died. If "Mary McCoy" died in Lexington prior to 1888, then she would not be reported in the Fayette County death register. And if John McNamara (≈1884 - 1947) was not born in Lexington, and his mother was never in Kentucky or even south of the Mason Dixon Line, then she would also not be reported in the Fayette County death register.

To be continued.

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:03 am

Hi Jimbo

Well, I’m not at all confident of the reliability of that tool-kit information on the publication dates, by county, of Griffith’s Valuation. This Wikipedia entry on Griffith’s Valuation gives different dates for publication – scroll down to “Contemporary use of and dates of Valuation": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffith%27s_Valuation
I have some books on the making of the 6 inch Ordnance Survey map (often called the 1842 map), but only one book on Griffith’s Valuation: The Archives of the Valuation of Ireland 1830-1865, by Frances McGee (Four Courts Press, 2018), and that book brought home to me how very difficult the subject is. The long period of years taken to complete the Valuation meant that various Acts*, introduced during that period, changed the rules governing the process of valuation. One major change, which caused a great deal of revision, was the change from valuation of the whole townland to valuation of each tenement.
In Chapter 2, “Development of the system and the work of valuation,” McGee says,
In the initial valuation, the work always took place in four stages: (1) field work in which the data was collected, (2) office work in which the field data was used to prepare a preliminary valuation for appeals, (3) appeal hearings and follow-up work, and (4) production of a final valuation that was applied to taxation…. See Appendix C for the dates of the work in each county. (The Archives of the Valuation of Ireland 1830-1865, by Frances McGee (page 38))
Appendix C gives the years 1847-1852 for Co. Limerick. The Valuation started in the northern counties of Ireland and ended with the most southern counties. Most counties have two sets of dates. Co. Clare, for instance, has 1845-1848 in italics and also 1850-1855. The dates in italics are for Townland Valuation, whereas the dates 1850-1852 are for Tenement Valuation. The change from Townland Valuation to Tenement Valuation had come into effect before the process of valuation had begun in Limerick, Kerry, Cork, Tipperary and Waterford, so there is just one set of dates for each of those counties.
Anyway, what’s clear is that the process from (1) to (4) took some years in each county, and I don’t know at what stage the names of the tenants holding each lot were decided and recorded. I imagine that there was a lag of a couple of years, at least, between recording and publishing.

*Here is a sample showing the complexity of the process:
The 1846 act attempted to reconcile the different strands of theory and practice and is the most challenging text of all the valuation acts. In addition to making an important alteration in the content of the valuing work, it changed the relative importance of the organs of local government, although for the moment the old and new systems operated in parallel. The grand jury, the high constable of the barony, the churchwarden and select vestry of the parish as well as the grand jury-appointed committees continued to have a role. However, under this act new responsibilities were given to the boards of guardians of the poor law unions in a process controlled by central government that presaged the expansion of their activities into other local functions as the century progressed. (The Archives of the Valuation of Ireland 1830-1865, by Frances McGee (page 35))
Jimbo, you have given a lot to time and work to the Red McNamaras in Kentucky, but there are also the other McNamara families that Barbara Jean mentioned but did not explore. She dismissed them on the grounds that her grandfather was reported as describing her as the first girl born to the family in five generations. Your examination of the Red McNamara family sprang from this newpaper notice:
Oliver Springs, Nov. 4 [1910]. Mr. C.J. Jones is in Knoxville this week. —Mr. John McNamara has returned to Kentucky after spending a few days with home folks. —Mrs. Lindawood, of Wind Rock, was here Thursday.—Rev. Mr. Morton of Kentucky, preached in the Presbyterian church Sunday morning and evening.—Miss Mary Wiley had the misfortune of falling Monday and dislocating her hip.— . . .

Knoxville Sentinel, Tennessee, 5 November 1910
Might not John L McNamara of Oliver Springs, Tennesee, have been visiting one of those other McNamara families in Kentucky?
In the same posting, you mentioned finding a Thomas McNamara in the 1870 census, possibly the father of John L McNamara, and possibly the galvanized Yankee. In that 1870 census, he is aged 32 and living in a boarding house with about 20 railroad workers in Hunnewell Furnace in Greenup, Kentucky. I looked to see where Hunnewell is, and find it is a long way from both Louisville and Lexington. But, if his stay there was connected with the railroad, it was probably just temporary, and not worth further exploration.
I can see that your work on the Red McNamaras has helped you to discover what records are available for Kentucky and this knowledge will be helpful to other readers. Thanks, as always, for including links to interesting reports of notable events, such as the 1855 riot in Louisville.

Sheila

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:37 am

Hi Jimbo

Barbara Jean mentions the “Black” McNamaras, so named in order to distinguish them from the Red McNamaras. I (foolishly) googled “Black McNamaras Lexington Kentucky” and came upon this reference to the Red McNamaras (I think): "Focusing on the McNamara saloon building, a cold storage warehouse, and black tenements on the lot at the corner of West Main and South Spring Streets, the reformers accused the Klair machine of padding registration rolls with the names of floaters, repeaters, and “phantoms who had no existence"". This quote comes from a preview of Bossism and Reform in a Southern City: Lexington, Kentucky 1880-1940, by James Duane Bolin (page 49). Does it appear that the McNamaras owned some tenements and that the 1870 census record you found for Timothy Daly might be correct?

The book is about Billy Klair, a “Boss” in Lexington politics, who had been preceded by a “Boss” called Dennis Mulligan. According to findagrave.com, Dennis Mulligan was born in Co. Longford, Ireland, in 1818. I was interested to see that Mulligan’s wife was a McCoy: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/970 ... s-mulligan.
Klair’s familial connections proved politically advantageous. On 15 November, 1900, Klair married Mayme Slavin, the daughter of Patrick and Mary Slavin, who were Irish grocers in the city. Through his marriage, Klair, at the beginning of his political career, gained an entrée into a very influential segment of Lexington’s population, a segment on which Dennis Mulligan had depended. (Bossism and Reform in a Southern City: Lexington, Kentucky 1880-1940, by James Duane Bolin (page 37))
Sheila

P.S. . “Old Houses of Lexington”, by C. Frank Dunn: http://sites.rootsweb.com/~kyfayett/dunnhouses.htm includes the house of James Hill, which was at nos. 316-318 North Upper Street. The history of the house is given here and mentions a Matthew McNamara. There is an interesting note regarding the adjoining building, no. 314 , in connection with set of the film, “Gone with the Wind”: https://sites.rootsweb.com/~kyfayett/du ... _james.htm:
Rust, of Boone County, Ky., sold to Robert Harper, of Butler County, Ohio, in July, 1854, and Harper and wife conveyed it in April, 1864, to Chas. S. Bodley, son of Gen. Thos. Bodley. Three months later Bodley and wife, Frances G., split the property and sold No. 314 to Matthew McNamara and Nos. 316-318 to Wm. Monaghan.
(The adjoining house, No. 314), is said to have furnished locale for a part of "Gone With the Wind," though a long way from Georgia.)

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:51 am

Hi Sheila,

Gone With The Wind was mostly filmed at a Hollywood movie studio and other California locations. The suggestion that 314 North Upper Street in Lexington was used as a GWTW location has a very tiny footprint on the internet, only the one article you quoted, and is not credible. And not because it "was a long way from Georgia", but because it was a long way from Hollywood.

https://www.movie-locations.com/movies/ ... e-Wind.php

A more interesting and believable GWTW myth is that Margaret Mitchell got the inspiration for the character of Belle Watling, the madam of an Atlanta brothel, from a famous Lexington madam named Belle Brezing. Her first "bawdy house" was at 194 North Upper Street in the Lexington red light district, and not too far from Mathew McNamara who purchased 314 North Upper Street in 1864.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belle_Brezing
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/8573/belle-brezing

Belle Watling of Atlanta and Belle Brezing of Lexington both had a child that was sent away to be raised by others. Sheila, below is the conversation (much abbreviated) between Melanie Wilkes and Belle Watling from Gone With The Wind when Belle talks emotionally about her son. An important clue perhaps in the true identity of the mysterious John McNamara (≈1884 - 1947)? Sheila, I'm assuming if you've never read the book you would have at least seen the movie, perhaps many times, so no further introduction is required:
"You were wonderful before the provost marshal today, Mrs. Watling! You and the other—your—the young ladies certainly saved our men's lives."

"Thank you kindly, Miz Wilkes. It was a pleasure to do it. I—I hope it ain't goin' to embarrass you none, me sayin' Mr. Wilkes come regular to my place. He never, you know—"

"Yes, I know. No, it doesn't embarrass me at all, I'm just so grateful to you."

"I'll bet the other ladies ain't grateful to me." said Belle with sudden venom. "And I'll bet they ain't grateful to Captain Butler neither. . . . I'll bet you'll be the only lady who even says thanks to me. . . . I wouldn't of minded if all their husbands got hung. But I did mind about Mr. Wilkes. You see I ain't forgot how nice you was to me durin' the war, about the money for the hospital. There ain't never been a lady in this town nice to me like you was and I don't forget a kindness. And I thought about you bein' left a widder with a little boy if Mr. Wilkes got hung and—he's a nice little boy, your boy is, Miz Wilkes. I got a boy myself and so I—"

"Oh, you have? Does he live—er—?

"Oh, no'm! He ain't here in Atlanta. He ain't never been here. He's off at school. I ain't seen him since he was little.
I—well, anyway, when Captain Butler wanted me to lie for those men I wanted to know who the men was and when I heard Mr. Wilkes was one I never hesitated. I said to my girls, I said 'I'll whale the livin' daylights out of you all if you don't make a special point of sayin' you was with Mr. Wilkes all evenin'."

"Oh!" said Melanie, still more embarrassed by Belle's offhand reference to her "girls." "Oh, that was—er—kind of you and—of them, too."

. . . "Well, I got to be goin'. I'm afraid somebody might recognize this carriage if I stayed here longer and that wouldn't do you no good. And, Miz Wilkes, if you ever see me on the street, you—you don't have to speak to me. I'll understand."

"I shall be proud to speak to you. Proud to be under obligation to you. I hope—I hope we meet again."

"No," said Belle. "That wouldn't be fittin'. Good night."

Gone With The Wind, Margaret Mitchell, 1936, chapter XLVI
scene from the film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsp0wRAJa4Y

Was the mysterious John McNamara (≈1884 - 1947), rumored to be the son of a saloon girl, sent away from the red light district of Lexington to be raised on a farm in Eaton, Ohio? Or might there be a far more logical explanation?

Sheila, thank you very much for the further explanation of the timing of Griffith Valuation and the link to the wikipedia article. Given the lack of Irish census records, it states how it is helpful "know the precise dates when the individual county components of the survey were completed". Wouldn't it be more helpful to know when the fieldwork was completed? Below is a good example from County Cork which raises many questions about the timing between when the fieldwork and final survey were completed. This is Dennis McNamara, who, with 99% certainty, was the father of the "Black McNamara's" of Lexington, Kentucky:

Valuation Fieldbook, Mountshannon, Barrymore, Cork, dated 13 July 1846.jpg
Valuation Fieldbook, Mountshannon, Barrymore, Cork, dated 13 July 1846.jpg (100.34 KiB) Viewed 47048 times

The fieldwork for the townland of Mountcatherine in the civil parish of Kilshanahan in County Cork was completed on 13 July 1846, as per above. It provides both the leaseholder and a brief description of the quality of the land. Unfortunately, the fieldbooks for County Clare, also available on ancestry, did not include the leaseholder's name for each plot (I only viewed a few pages for Clare). The information provided on 13 July 1846 for Dennis McNamara is nearly identical to the final Griffith Valuation except the valuation amount is slightly off.

https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith ... arishname=

The Griffith Valuation report for County Cork was completed on 20 July 1853 (per the wikipedia article) or 1851-1853 from the Irish genealogy toolkit. That is possibly up to seven years after the fieldwork was signed off for Mountcatherine townland on 12 July 1846. Can we be certain that Dennis McNamara, who was reported in the finalized Griffith Valuation, was still alive in 1853? Can we even be certain that the family of Dennis McNamara was still living in Ireland in 1853? Or had they already moved to Kentucky?

Sheila, I agree with your comment that the family of the "Black" McNamara's of Lexington should have been investigated more thoroughly. Barbara Jean's grandfather stated that she was the first girl born in five generations. I reckon this comment was a kindly grandfather letting his granddaughter (and daughter-in-law) know how special she was to him. To have knowledge of five generations would mean that John McNamara (≈1884 - 1947) had knowledge of his own grandparents and their siblings. Doubtful, I reckon. Plus, "Red Mack" had two daughters, so it would be inconsistent to not research Patrick H. McNamara of Lexington, who Barbara Jean identified as a "Black" McNamara, only because he was the father of two daughters.

Upon further research there were actually four "Black" McNamara brothers, who along with their mother left Watergrasshill Catholic parish in County Cork for Kentucky in the early 1850's.

To be continued.

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:30 pm

Hi Jimbo

I’m afraid I haven’t read Gone with the Wind, but I have a vague memory of seeing the film and I know that it is a classic and the theme music is familiar and the line “Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn,” of course. So I got the book from my local library this morning. There are 1001 pages of very small print, so God alone only knows when I will finish it. I know that the film is very controversial now, and I suppose the book is also controversial, but, keeping all that in mind, I expect I will learn a lot about those times and the civil war.

The note about no. 314 providing locale for Gone with the Wind can be dismissed, I agree, but it tells us that the house had kept its old-fashioned look, I think.

About Griffith’s Valuation and the difficulty with deciding when exactly the tenants listed were actually residing in the tenements, I have no very useful answer. As you say, in Co. Clare the field notes seem to be confined to types of soil, but I think there must be some parishes with information about the tenants living there at the beginning of the process (abt. 1846). I noticed that in his book, The Parish of Inchicronan (Crusheen), Thomas Coffey includes a chapter on Field Notes, and these notes give the names of the tenants present in the various townlands in the parish at that time. There were guidelines as to the information to be included in field notes, but ultimately it was at the discretion of the officers in the field how much they wrote. They were writing the notes in the evening after work, by candlelight, so it’s understandable if they did not include very much.
The Valuation Cancellation Books that I have looked at in the Valuation Office in Dublin show that the first revision of Griffith’s Valuation came very soon after the first valuation. Very often the first book showed me that the first (recorded) tenant had died, and that his son - I assumed it was a son if the name was the same – had taken over. Occasionally, someone of a different name had taken over, and this suggested to me that the preceding tenant had either died, or left, or gone to the Workhouse.
The Valuation of the Munster counties (apart from Clare) must have been a fairly straightforward process, since the problems besetting the system of valuation had been ironed out by then. Bringing the other counties, already evaluated under the old system, into line took some time and that process seems to have reached the north of Ireland as late as 1864. I read somewhere (but where?) that notes made during this re-evaluation show that tenants had been enlarging their farms* to include extra fields – presumably fields which had once been tenanted by people now dead or gone away, or in the Workhouse. In many cases, probably, the farmers taking those fields had already been paying head-rent for them for some years, so the landlord would not have been affected financially. There must also have been many small farms surrendered under the Gregory Clause by people seeking shelter in the Workhouse – these farms were now subsumed into other farms, or else consolidated by the landlord in order to attract the kind of better off tenant who could be relied on to pay the rent.
Anyway, a look at the Cancellation Books for the first revision of the valuation of the townlands of Carroward East and Carroward West might be interesting.
* I seem to remember that the examples given were from Co. Mayo.

I fully agree with you that John McNamara’s comment on the birth of Barbara Jean was just his way of expressing how welcome she was into the family.
Barbara Jean mentions a Patrick McNamara in connection with the Black McNamaras. Is he the Patrick McNamara who is occupying the house next to Timothy Daly in the 1870 census: #38 Timothy Daly: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MX71-K2H? If so, I think he must be connected to Mathew McNamara at No. 37. As far as I can make out, his occupation is Grocer. But, really, I don’t know how we can find out who it was that John McNamara of Oliver Springs was visiting in Kentucky. Looking again at the notice in the paper, and noticing that John is given as just “John” and not “John L.”, I wonder if it was a John McNamara from Kentucky who was visiting John L. in Oliver Springs, and who was now returning again to Kentucky.

Sheila

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:42 am

Hi Jimbo, again

This is a bit more from Frances McGee's book on Griffith's Valuation, showing (1) that there was a time-lag of at least two years between recording and publication; (2) the importance of the first book of the Cancellation Books in the Valuation Office.

Chapter 6, ‘Appeals against the Primary Valuation,’ (p 157 of The Archives of the Valuation of Ireland 1830-1865, by Frances McGee), explains that there were two sets of appeals (just as there had been two systems of valuation: Townland and Tenement):
The principle of appeal was established with the Valuation Act of 1826, and the Tenement Valuation Acts of 1846 and 1852 continued this, allowing for appeals against the Primary Valuation. The appeals were the last stage of the work in establishing the valuation and the appeal documents are the last series of archives of the initial valuation. They provide the link between the archives made in the initial valuation and the updated valuation in the manuscript cancelled books, created as the documents of record, and still held in the Valuation Office. The appeal procedures under the two acts were different and the documents are in two series.
McGee goes on to explain that the first cancelled book (held in the Valuation Office) is an important book:
The appeal books (and the revising surveyor’s books) were also used to carry out important corrections to the Primary Valuation in matters that did not concern appeals, thereby creating a final copy of the text, ready for its transcription as the first cancelled book. This included updating the information on tenements, boundaries and houses that were said to have been knocked ‘down’. With a time lag of at least two years between the field work and the Primary Valuation, it was inevitable that some of the information was out of date by the time the book was printed. In addition large-scale changes in occupation took place at this period in many parts of the country. (p. 160)
Sheila

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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:57 am

Hi Sheila,

My edition of Gone With The Wind has only 719 pages, I checked, since I was very slow to pick up that "1001 pages" was an example of the Irish love of hyperbole which might fly right past Americans. I reckon you'll enjoy the novel Gone With The Wind, which has many more Irish and Irish-American references and themes compared to the film. As an example, I don't recall the film ever mentioning that Gerald O'Hara, the father of Scarlett, was forced to flee Ireland because he had murdered the rental land agent in County Meath who had insulted him by whistling the opening bars of "The Boyne Water". If you tire of the book at least read until chapter three.

Upon further research into the "Black McNamara's", Patrick H. McNamara was one of four brothers living in Lexington. In order of birth: Thomas, John, Michael, and Patrick. Their sibling relationships were documented in several obituaries. The baptism and marriage records of St. Paul's Church in Lexington provided further clues to their relationships since they were often marriage witnesses and baptism sponsors for each other's family members. Many uncle / aunt and cousin relationships of the "Black" McNamara's were also revealed in the "visiting" news found in every newspaper of the South. Sharon found one such snippet which she noted in her first posting about the McNamara's of Lexington. Sheila, you previously mentioned having American relatives from Northern cities visit in Ireland, and, after reading the below description, no doubt feel quite fortunate that your relatives were not from the South:
When a Southerner took the trouble to pack a trunk and travel twenty miles for a visit, the visit was seldom of shorter duration than a month, usually much longer. Southerners were as enthusiastic visitors as they were hosts, and there was nothing unusual in relatives coming to spend the Christmas holidays and remaining until July. Often when newly married couples went on the usual round of honeymoon visits, they lingered in some pleasant home until the birth of their second child. Frequently elderly aunts and uncles came to Sunday dinner and remained until they were buried years later. Visitors presented no problem, for houses were large, servants numerous and the feeding of several extra mouths a minor matter in that land of plenty. All ages and sexes went visiting, honeymooners, young mothers showing off new babies, convalescents, the bereaved, girls whose parents were anxious to remove them from the dangers of unwise matches, girls who had reached the danger age without becoming engaged and who, it was hoped, would make suitable matches under the guidance of relatives in other places. Visitors added excitement and variety to the slow moving Southern life and they were always welcome.

Gone With The Wind, Margaret Mitchell, 1936, chapter VIII, page 104 of 719

The census reports also reveal that the mother of the four "Black" McNamara brothers, Honora Anne McNamara, also lived in Lexington. The death record for Patrick reported his mother as "Honora Sheehan", but his father only as "Mr. McNamara".

There is no USA record stating the name of the father of the four McNamara brothers nor their Irish county of birth. However, each of the four brothers had a son named "Denis", and he was the first born son of two of the four (for whom the baptism sponsor was grandmother Honora McNamara). One first born son, named Francis Xavier, was perhaps born sickly and did not survive, allowing flexibility perhaps in Irish naming traditions. Their second born son was named after his maternal grandfather, and third born son named Denis, after his paternal grandfather.

Searching via the ancestry website for a McNamara born to a father named Denis McNamara and mother named Honora Sheehan led to the baptism records for the youngest two sons, both perfect matches, in the Catholic Parish of Watergrasshill in County Cork. No specific townland was reported in the Watergrasshill baptism records. However, Denis McNamara, the only Denis McNamara in County Cork in Griffith Valuation, was living in Mountcatherine townland in the Civil Parish of Kilshanahan, as noted in last posting, which falls within the boundaries of Watergrasshill Catholic Parish. One neighbor in Mountcatherine, Garrett Cotter, was the baptism sponsor for Michael McNamara baptized in 1836. There is no indication that Denis McNamara ever left Ireland; nor is there any evidence from Irish civil records or census, that his wife or two known sons (born in 1837 and 1844) remained in County Cork. If "Denis" had been a "Patrick", "Michael", or "John", I would be less confident having successfully traced the "Black" McNamara's of Lexington back to Mountcatherine townland in County Cork. However, with having not one but two of the sons of Denis McNamara (presumed) and Honora Sheehan of Lexington match perfectly to the Watergrasshill baptism register, I'm very confident. And just one more thing, the surname "Sheehan" is a very popular County Cork surname; using Sheila's GV methodology: Cork (1,621 names), Limerick (458), and Clare (103).

The number of family trees on the ancestry website reflect the number of grandchildren of the four "Black" McNamara brothers. Thomas and John: none. Michael: about 5 or so family trees. Patrick: about 15 or so family trees. While Honora Sheehan is known to the descendants of Patrick McNamara, none made the connection between the four brothers, which could have led to how common the name "Denis" was to the "Black" McNamara's of Lexington, and led finally to Plot 1 of Mountcatherine townland in the civil parish of Kilshanahan:

Mountcatherine Townland, Plot 1, Kilshanahan Parish, County Cork.jpg
Mountcatherine Townland, Plot 1, Kilshanahan Parish, County Cork.jpg (133.04 KiB) Viewed 46997 times

From the 1846 field book description of Mountcatherine townland, see prior posting, the top section of Plot 1 must be "moory arable" and the bottom section "coarse pasture". The arable portion of tilled land appears to have expanded south a bit over time. Thus, where Denis McNamara's house was located on the old 1842 map has likely been tilled over for 100 years or so.

There is an interesting history of Watergrasshill at the School's Collection at the Dúchas website:
https://www.duchas.ie/en/cbes/4921856/4896694/5189998


Family of Denis McNamara and Honora "Annie" Sheehan (≈1800 - ≈1884) of Mountcatherine Townland, Civil Parish of Kilshanahan, County Cork and later Lexington, Kentucky

In the 1870 census in Lexington, living in the Patrick H. McNamara household was an "Annie McNamara", age 70, born in Ireland (relationships are not shown in the 1870 census). In the 1880 census in Lexington, living in the Thomas McNamara household, a brother of Patrick H. McNamara, was an "Anora McNamara", age 78, born in Ireland, relationship of "mother". "Honora Sheehan" was identified as the mother of Patrick H. McNamara on his 1926 death record. She appears to have been a baptism sponsor for three, and possibly four, grandchildren between 1863 and 1883; one child of each of her four sons. No death record available, but likely Honora Anne Sheehan McNamara died about 1884.

1.0 Thomas McNamara (≈1833 - ≈1884), was born about 1833, prior to the January 1836 start of baptism records for Watergrasshill Catholic Parish of County Cork.

Thomas McNamara married Ellen McGovern (≈1834 - prior to 1884) on 6 November 1859 at St. Paul's Catholic Church in Lexington; witnesses Patrick McGovern and Eliza Murphy; by the Rev. H.G. Allen (per on-line marriage register).

Civil marriage license on 5 Nov. 1859: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QG1D-5VXX

In July 1863, a Thos. McNamara, age 30, so born about 1833, grocer, married, was registered for the Civil War draft, living at Lexington, Kentucky. Included on the same military register were two other McNamara's, likely his younger brothers, both single laborers: John McNamara (age 28) and Michael McNamara (age 26). There is no indication that any of the three McNamara's, who all lived in Lexington, actually fought in the Civil War.

Thomas McNamara had the occupation of grocer in 1870 and baker in the 1880 census; according to the city directory his bakery and confectionery was located at 216 S. Broadway in Lexington.

1870 "McNamara": https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MXWM-DBS
1880 "McNara" : https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MCCF-MH3

Lexington court proceedings indicate that both Thomas and Ellen McNamara had died prior to July 1884 (from research done by a reddit contributor 1 month ago), this would be prior to the Fayette county death register or death records, as well as availability of on-line Lexington newspapers.
Thursday morning July 3 1884
Thos J McNamara [his son, who would be age 23] this day came into court and was appointed administrator of the estate of Thos McNamara deceased intestate of Fayette county. Wherefore ... he took oath and made bond with John McNamara [his brother] and James McCormick as sureties, approved by the court.

Pat McNamara [his brother] approved in open court and was duly qualified as appraiser of the estate of Thos McNamara dec'd.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cat=430365
https://www.reddit.com/r/Genealogy/comm ... ggestions/
............ 1.1 Thomas McNamara (1860 - 1942), was born on 26 August 1860; baptized on 27 August 1860 at St. Paul's Church in Lexington; sponsors John McNamara (his uncle) and Anne McGovern; mother reported as "Helen McGovern".

Thomas McNamara, upon the death of his father about 1884, obtained guardianship for his youngest three siblings:
Thomas J. McNamara administering for Thomas McNamara, deceased. It is ordered that the estate of Luke McNamara, John McNamara and Ellen McNamara, minors . . hereby placed in the hands of Geo B Kinkead Public Administrator and guardian for Fayette county.
Saturday morning Sept 13, 1884
In 1910, his younger brother, John McNamara, sought to force the sale of their father's property, so he could obtain his inherited share. His siblings objected. "Thomas, Nannie and Ellen McNamara filed suit in Circuit Court Saturday against John McNamara" [as well as a revenue agent and the city of Lexington] in order to block the forced sale of their house at 322 Chestnut street. "They say irreparable injury will be done them by said sale if allowed" (Lexington Leader, 10 July 1910). At the time of this court action, the McNamara siblings were not aware that their brother John McNamara had sadly died in Washington state on 22 June 1910. The three McNamara siblings were still living at 322 Chestnut in the 1920 census.

............ 1.2 Denis McNamara (1863 - prior to 1870), was born on 8 October 1863; baptized on 12 October 1863 at St. Paul's Church in Lexington; sponsors Patricius McNamara (his uncle) and Gbonora (Latin sp?) McNamara (Honora, his grandmother). A twin, died prior to 1870, possibly in infancy.

............ 1.3 Brigida McNamara (1863 - 1921) was born on 8 October 1863; baptized on 12 October 1863 at St. Paul's Church in Lexington; sponsors Goannis McNamara (John, her uncle) and Goanna Levin (sp?). A twin. There are no other baptism records of a daughter of Thomas McNamara and Mary McGovern between 1861 and 1864 besides this "Brigida". Therefore, in later years she must have been called "Hannie" (age 8 in 1870), "Nancy" (age 18 in 1880), later "Nannie" and "Anna". Possibly named after her grandmother, Honora Anne, but not when baptized.

............ 1.4 Luke McNamara (1865 - 1887) was born on 17 July 1865; baptized on 23 July 1865 at St. Paul's Church in Lexington; sponsors Luke McGovern and Mary Ann McGovern. (age 5 in 1870; age 15 in 1880)
Lexington, Aug 14 [1887].—Luke McNamara, better known as "Sonny Mac," of this city, was killed in Atlanta, last night, so states a telegram just received by his relatives here. His body will be brought home for burial.
The Courier Journal, Lexington, 15 August 1887
............ 1.5 John McNamara (1869 - 1910), was born on 14 October 1869; baptized on 24 October 1869 at St. Paul's Church in Lexington; sponsors William McGovern and Mrs. Bridget McGovern. (age 7 months in 1870; age 12 in 1880)

John McNamara would leave Kentucky and in the 1910 census was a railroad laborer in Yakima, Washington. About this time, John sought to force the sale of the shared inherited McNamara residence in Lexington lived in by his three siblings. Unbeknownst to them, John McNamara died one month prior to his siblings going to the Lexington court to block the sale:
Thomas McNamara, of 322 Chestnut street, received a letter Saturday from W.L. Lachlin, announcing the death of Mr. McNamara's brother, John A. McNamara, at Prosser, Washington. His death occurred June 22.

Mr. McNamara was a former resident of this city, where he was born. He was a plasterer and about 35 years old. No particulars of his death were given in the letter and his brother has written to Mr. Lachlin to ascertain the circumstances surrounding his demise.

He is survived by his brother, Thomas McNamara, and two sisters, Misses Nellie and Annie McNamara, all of this city.
Lexington Leader, 17 July 1910
............ 1.6 Ellen McNamara (1873 - 1949), was born on 7 February 1873; baptized on 9 February 1873 at St. Paul's Church in Lexington; sponsors Michael Shannon and Mrs. Mary Shannon. (age 7 in 1880, age 45 in 1920)
Miss Nellie McNamara, of Lexington, spent Saturday and Sunday in this city, the guest of her aunt, Mrs. K.B. McNamara.
Kentucky Irish-American, Louisville, 1 September 1900
Funeral services for Miss Nellie McNamara, a bookkeeper with the Lexington Telephone Company for 25 years who died Monday will be held at St. Peter's Catholic Church . . . Calvary cemetery. . . . a daughter of the late Thomas and Ellen McGovern McNamara. . . . Survivors include three cousins, Miss Catherine B. McNamara and Miss Marie C. McNamara, Frankfort, [daughters of John McNamara] and Mrs. Mary Roesler, Lexington [a McGovern cousin] . . .
The Lexington Herald, 8 June 1949

2.0 John McNamara (≈1835 - 1889), was born about 1835, prior to the January 1836 start of baptism records for Watergrasshill Catholic Parish of County Cork.

In July 1863, a John McNamara, age 28, so born about 1835, laborer, single, was registered for the Civil War draft, living at Lexington, Kentucky.

In 1870 census, a John McNamara, reported age 30, single, was a laborer living at boarding house in Lexington owned by Martin Fitzgerald, along with seven other mostly Irish boarders.

John McNamara married Kate Regan (born October 1849 in Kentucky per 1900 census - 5 September 1932) on 20 February 1871 at a Catholic Church in Franklin County according to civil marriage license documents. Reported witnesses were Michael McNamara (his brother) and Mary Regan; and priest was Rev. Lambert Young, a Catholic priest in Louisville:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2QD-3C1L

John McNamara and Catherine Regan McNamara were the parents of three children baptized in the St. Paul Church register of Lexington between 1875 and 1883. And John also appears in the 1881 Lexington city directory, as a well borer, residing at "e s Broadway south of Bolivar". In the 1880 census, John McNamara was reported as "M McNara", age 38, laborer, born in Ireland, living at South Broadway street; along with his wife, "K.B", age 33, born in Kentucky; son Denis, age 5; and daughter Marie, age 8 months.

1880 "McNara": https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MCCF-M1P

John McNamara, driller of wells, died on 15 June 1889 per the Fayette County death register (1886 - 1902; the year 1889 is not in chronological order); name of parents reported as "don't know". Individual death records for Lexington, which typically include parents, don't start until 1894. After his death, the widow Catherine Regan McNamara and three children moved to Frankfort.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cat=222614
FUNERAL NOTICES. The funeral of John McNamara will take place at 4:30 this afternoon from the residence of his brother, P.H. McNamara, at 106 Dewees Street.
The Kentucky Leader, Lexington, 23 June 1889
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/969 ... n-mcnamara
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/812 ... e-mcnamara
Mrs. Kate B. McNamara and daughter, Miss Catherine, are visiting relatives in Lexington this week.
Kentucky Irish-American, Louisville, 8 July 1899
Mrs. Katie B. McNamara and daughter, of Frankfort, Ky., are spending a few days with their cousins, Misses McNamara [Annie and Nellie], on Chestnut street.
Lexington Leader, 19 August 1912
............ 2.1 Denis Joseph McNamara (1875 - 10 January 1929), was born on 19 March 1875, and baptized on 25 March 1875 at St. Paul's Church in Lexington; sponsors Thomas McNamara (his uncle) and Mrs. Margaret Sullivan.
D.J. McNamara, K.C. District Deputy, Dies
Frankfort, Ky., Jan 9.—Dennis Joseph McNamara, 53 years old, died at 7 o'clock this morning at his home, 515 Ann Street. He was employed as a bookkeeper for the M.G. Sullivan Oil Company. Mr. McNamara was district deputy of the Knights of Columbus Council, composed of the cities of Lexington, Winchester, Paris and Frankfort. He was a member of the Frankfort Council, No. 1483, Knights of Columbus, of which he had served as a grand knight.

He is survived by his mother, Mrs. Catherine McNamara, and two sisters, Misses Marie C. McNamara and Catherine McNamara. Funeral services . . . Good Shepherd Catholic Church. . .
The Courier Journal, Louisville, Kentucky, 10 January 1929
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/812 ... j-mcnamara

............ 2.2 Mary McNamara, was born on 27 September 1879, baptized on 5 October 1879 at St. Paul's Church in Lexington; sponsors Bartholomew Regan and Anna Regan.

............ 2.3 Katie McNamara, Katherine was born on 7 August 1883, baptized on 19 August 1883 at St. Paul's Church in Lexington; sponsors Pat McNamara (her uncle) and Hanora McNamara (her grandmother).


3.0 Michael McNamara (1837 - 1902), Michael was baptized on 22 September 1837, at Watergrasshill Catholic Parish in County Cork; father Den. McNamara; mother Hona. Sheehan; sponsors Gar. Cotter and Marg. Hexxxly (unclear). Garrett Cotter, a neighbor of Denis McNamara, was leasing plot 4 in Mountcatherine townland, civil parish of Kilshanahan.

In July 1863, a Mike McNamara, age 26, so born about 1837, laborer, single, was registered for the Civil War draft, living at Lexington, Kentucky.

Michael McNamara married Mary Kane on 14 February 1867 at St. Paul's Catholic Church in Lexington; witnesses Patrick McNamara and Winnie Lorne/Lowe (sp?); by the Rev. J.H. Bekkins (per on-line marriage register).

Civil license on 14 February 1867: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q28D-D2DR

After his marriage in 1867 to a young Mary Kane, Michael McNamara will slightly fudge his age: age 28 (≈1842) in 1870; age 42 (≈1838) in 1880; age 59 (August 1840) in 1900; age 60 (≈1842) in 1902 obituary. The Civil War registration in July 1863 was most accurate.

1870 (Lexington): https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MX71-13G
1880 (Newport): https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MCCW-RHC
1900 (Newport): https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M9WK-5GT
THE DEATH ROLL: Michael McNamara, age 60, brother of Patrick McNamara, of the fire department, is dead at his late home in Covington, of Bright's disease. Mr. McNamara leaves a wife and five children. His funeral will take place at 9 o'clock Saturday morning in Covington. Capt. Denis McNamara [son of Patrick McNamara], of this city will attend his uncle's funeral.
Lexington Leader, 21 February 1902
The "Registry of Deaths" of the city of Newport in Campbell County, Kentucky (adjacent to Covington) states that Michael McNamara; married; age 58; ironworker; parentage Irish; nativity "Newport"; last residence, 605 Elm in 4th Ward [in Newport]; 32 year residency in city; prior residence, Ireland; burial St. Stephen's; died of Bright's disease on 20 February 1902. This is a death registry, and not an individual death record, neither parents or informant are listed (image 528 of 888, #126):

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... GGBG?i=527

............ 3.1 Mary Ann McNamara (1867 - died prior to 1870), was born on 30 December 1867, and baptized on 1 January 1868 at St. Paul's Church in Lexington; sponsors Patrick McNamara (her uncle) and Bridget Kain.

............ 3.2 Dennis McNamara (1869 - 1952), was born on 5 November 1869, and baptized on 7 November 1869 at St. Paul's Church in Lexington; sponsors Peter Cain and Honora McNamara (his grandmother).
The funeral of Dennis McNamara, former resident of Kentucky . . . Requiem High Mass . . . at Immaculate Conception Church, Newport. Burial at St. Stephen Cemetery, Fort Thomas. . . . Surviving him are a brother, Peter McNamara, Cincinnati, and several nieces and nephews.
The Cincinnati Enquirer, 4 August 1952
............ 3.3 Thomas Henry McNamara (1871 - 1904), was born on 11 October 1871, and baptized on 22 November 1871 at St. Paul's Church in Lexington; sponsors John McNamara (his uncle) and Mrs. Mary Lynch. "Thomas McNamara, 30, died suddenly at his home, 605 Elm Street, Newport, Wednesday night . . . ", The Kentucky Post, Covington, 11 February 1904.

*** MOVE: The Michael McNamara family moved in the early 1870's from Lexington, Fayette County, to Newport, Campbell County, which is adjacent to Covington, Kenton County. Both Newport and Covington in Kentucky are across the Ohio River from Cincinnati.

............ 3.4 John Francis McNamara (age 6 in 1880, ≈1874 - 1904).

In 1900, John McNamara was a "rolling mill worker" living in Newport with Bridget Kane, born August 1849, age 50, widow, born in Ireland, arrived in USA in 1861; and Thomas Kane, born December 1824, age 75, single, born in Ireland, arrived in USA in 1848, a pensioner. Surely, relatives of his mother.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M9W2-MTM
DIED IN FLORIDA. A telegram was received in Newport yesterday afternoon concerning the death of John McNamara at the naval hospital at Pensacola, Florida. He was a seaman on the torpedo boat Worden. He was also a veteran in the Spanish-American War, having served in the Cuban and Puerto Rican campaigns. He became ill some time ago with pneumonia, and was sent to the hospital. The remains will be brought to Newport for burial. His brothers are Dennis, Peter and Joseph McNamara, of 605 Elm St.
The Kentucky Post, Covington, 14 December 1904
............ 3.5 Peter McNamara (age 3 in 1880, ≈1877 - 1958)
Requiem High Mass for Peter J. McNamara, 81, who died Monday [1 September 1958] at his home in Newport, will be sung . . . at Immaculate Conception Church, Newport . . . Burial will be in St. Stephen Cemetery, Ft. Thomas. Mr. McNamara was a retired shoe worker for the old Krippendorf-Dittman Shoe Co., Cincinnati. He leaves a widow, Mrs. Lena Gebhardt McNamara; two sons . . . three daughters . . . eight grandchildren and one great-grandchild.
The Kentucky Post and Times-Star, Covington, 3 September 1958
............ 3.6 Joseph McNamara (age 8 months in 1880, ≈1879 - 1917). "Joseph McNamara, 36, died Thursday at Speers Memorial hospital, Dayton. The body was removed to the home of a brother, Peter McNamara, of 705 Isabella street", The Kentucky Post, Covington, 8 March 1917.


4.0 Patrick McNamara (1840 - prior to 1844), Pat was baptized on 6 December 1840, at Watergrasshill Catholic Parish in County Cork; father Den. McNamara; mother Hon. Sheehan; sponsors Pat. Burke and Mary Cotter (a common surname in Mountcatherine townland).


5.0 Patrick H. McNamara (1844 - 1926), Pat was baptized on 24 March 1844 (transcribed as 4 March), at Watergrasshill Catholic Parish in County Cork; father Denis McNamara; mother Hona Sheehan; sponsors Mich. Roche and Mary (surname too dark).

Patrick McNamara married Mary Anne McGovern (19 December 1849 - 6 October 1910 in Norfolk, VA) on 20 February 1870 at St. Paul's Catholic Church in Lexington; witnesses John McNamara (his brother) and Anne McCloskey; by the Rev. John H. Bekkers (per on-line marriage register).

Civil license on 18 Feb. 1870; required consent of Mary Anne McGovern's guardian, Luke McGovern, who was likely a relative (her father was Thomas McGovern per her death record)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q28D-DMFY
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q28D-DQWH

In the 1870 census, Patrick and Mary McNamara were living with "Annie McNamara", age 70, born in Ireland. Relationships are not reported in the 1870 census, but she was likely the mother of Patrick H. McNamara. They were at House #39 per the census taker count, which followed #38 Timothy Daly and #37 Mathew "Red Mack" McNamara. In Patrick McNamara's 1926 death record, his mother was reported as "Honora McNamara".

1870: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MCCF-X7P
1880: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MCCF-X7P
1900: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M949-NRH

Appointments to the city fire department were made by the Lexington mayor and appear to be based upon political friendships, leading perhaps to high turnover when a new mayor was elected. P. H. McNamara was appointed as a fireman in 1900 and was discharged in February 1903. "Mayor Duncan is having an up-hill time of it with his police and fire departments. . . . Only a few days ago one of Mayor Duncan's new appointees, Patrick H. McNamara, of No. 2 hose company, turned a hose wagon over and smashed it to pieces, almost killing himself and others on the wagon, and now the public is waiting to see what else is to happen. Rumors of scandal . . . " per The Daily-Leader, Lexington, 5 March 1900.
Mr. P.H. McNamara has returned from Frankfort, where he was visiting his son, Captain D.J. McNamara and family.
Lexington Leader, 11 August 1907
SUDDENLY: The distressing news was received here Thursday night by Mr. P.H. McNamara that his wife, Mrs. Mary McNamara had died suddenly Thursday at the residence of her daughter, Miss Kate McNamara in Norfolk, Va., where she was visiting. Mrs. McNamara is survived by her husband, two daughters, Mrs. J. Latham and Miss Kate McNamara, and one son, William.
Lexington Leader, 7 October 1910
Kentucky 1910 death record: father Thomas McGovern, mother Catherine Lyons; born in Kentucky on 19 December 1849.
Patrick H. McNamara, age 80, died yesterday afternoon at 6:30 o'clock at the residence, 1400 Holland avenue, Winona [Norfolk, Virginia]. Mr. McNamara was a native of Ireland and had been a resident of Norfolk 11 years. Before coming to Norfolk, he had lived 63 years in Lexington, Ky. He is survived by a daughter, Mrs. Carroll Emley, and a son, W.I. McNamara, both of Norfolk also by seven grandchildren. He was a member of Norfolk Council No. 367, Knights of Columbus, and held membership in St. Mary's Catholic Church. Funeral Services . . at St. Mary's Church . . burial in St. Mary's Cemetery.
Virginia Pilot and Norfolk Landmark, Norfolk, Virginia, 28 May 1926
Death Record: Patrick H. McNamara, age 80, born on 17 March 1846, spouse "Mary A McNamara", died on 27 May 1926 in Norfolk, Virginia; father reported as "Mr. McNamara" and mother "Honora Sheehan".

............ 5.1 Francis Xavier McNamara (1870 - prior to 1880), was born on 2 December 1870, baptized on 4 December 1870 at St. Paul's Church in Lexington; sponsors Thomas McNamara (his uncle) and Mrs. McNamara (either wife of uncle Thomas, or his grandmother). Appears to have died prior to 1880 census, perhaps in infancy. First born son was not named after his paternal grandfather.

............ 5.2 Thomas Francis McNamara (1873 - prior to 1880), was born on 21 March 1873, baptized on 29 March 1873 at St. Paul's Church in Lexington; sponsors William McGovern and Bridget Lyons. Appears to have died prior to 1880 census, perhaps in infancy. The second born son, named after his maternal grandfather.

............ 5.3 Dennis Joseph McNamara (1874 - 1910), was born on 8 May 1874, baptized on 14 May 1874 at St. Paul's Church in Lexington; sponsors Michael Shannon and Mrs. Anna Welch.
Sergeant D.J. McNamara, of Lexington, a member of Company B, Second Kentucky, arrived in the city [Frankfort] Monday and will spend ten days with relatives. Sergeant McNamara is a thorough soldier, having spent seven years in the State Guard prior to entering the volunteer army, and is delighted with soldier life. He has never been sick a day since he left Lexington last May. . .
Kentucky Irish-American, Louisville, 24 September 1898 (the Frankfort gossip section)
NUPTIAL KNOTS: The announcement of the wedding of Captain D.J. McNamara, of this city, and Miss Mary Reagan, of Frankfort, Ky., will be made at the morning service at St. Paul's Catholic Church today. The marriage will take place at the Church of the Good Shepherd in Frankfort on Thanksgiving Day. The bride and groom to be will make their home in Lexington. The prospective groom was formerly captain of Battery B, Kentucky State Guard and is popular in his home town. His bride to be is a beautiful young woman . . .
Lexington Leader, 9 November 1902
...................... 5.3.1 David Patrick McNamara, born 22 November 1906, per WW2 enlistment record.
...................... 5.3.2 Margaret Mary McNamara, born 30 April 1908, died 5 October 1913 in Franklin County (per Kentucky death record).
Mr. Denis McNamara died at the home of his parents, Mr. and Mrs. P.H. McNamara, 162 East Short street, Tuesday morning by tuberculosis. He is survived by his wife and two children, one brother and two sisters—Mr. William McNamara of this city, Mrs. O.B. Latham of Washington, D.C., and Miss Catherine McNamara of Norfolk, Va. The funeral services will be held at St. Peter's Church . . . and the interment will follow in the family lot in the Catholic cemetery.
Lexington Herald, 9 March 1910
............ 5.4 Luke McNamara (1876 - 1904), was born on 31 December 1876, and baptized on 7 January 1877 at St. Paul's Church in Lexington; sponsors Thomas Sheehan and Mrs. Mary Reynolds. A twin. Luke McNamara died on 27 January 1904, at the age of 27 years (per Copy of Certificate of Death).

............ 5.5 Kate McNamara, was born on 31 December 1876, and baptized on 7 January 1877 at St. Paul's Church in Lexington; sponsors John McNamara (her uncle) and Mary Shannon. A twin. "Mrs. Carroll Emley" per father's 1926 obituary.

............ 5.6 Mary "Mayme" McNamara, was born on 5 July 1880, baptized on 18 July 1880 at St. Paul's Church in Lexington; sponsors Andrew Haunifal (sp?) and Lydia Faul (sp?).
Miss Mayme McNamara and brother, D.J. McNamara, spent Sunday with relatives [aunt Catherine McNamara] in this city [Frankfort].
Kentucky Irish-American, Louisville, 11 March 1899 (the Frankfort gossip section)
Miss Mayme A. McNamara, formerly of this city, has received an appointment in the Government Printing Office in Washington DC. Miss McNamara, who is the daughter of Mrs. P.H. McNamara, is a bright, clever young woman, completed a course in the Lanston Monotype School in Philadelphia, Pa., and has since held a position in that city. Her many friends wish her much success in her new undertaking.
The Lexington Herald, 14 April 1907
McNamara-Latham. One of the interesting weddings of the week will be that of Miss Mayme A. McNamara, daughter of Mr. and Mrs. P.H. McNamara, of this city, to Mr. O.V. Latham, of Greenville, S.C., but now a resident of Washington D.C. The marriage will be solemnized with a nuptial mass on April 21 [1909] at 10 a.m. at St. Aloysius Church in Washington, D.C., Rev. Rector Charles Lyons officiating. . . . Miss McNamara is a very charming girl and has many friends both in this city and Washington, where she has visited for over two years, being one of the force in the Public Printing Office . . .
Lexington Leader, 18 April 1909

............ 5.7 William McNamara (1885 - 1944)
, was born on 6 October 1885, baptized on 8 October 1885 at St. Paul's Church in Lexington; sponsors John Kelly and Johanna Cronin.
Tingle—McNamara. The marriage of Miss Virginia Tingle to Mr. William I. McNamara, of Norfolk, Va., was solemnized Tuesday morning at St. Peter's Church, the Rev. Father Punch officiating. . . . Mr. McNamara, formerly of Lexington, has been making his home for sometime at Norfolk, holding a position in the navy yards . . .
The Lexington Herald, 7 July 1915
. . . Mr. McNamara formerly lived in Lexington and was a student at Kentucky University. He now holds a position in the Navy Yards of Norfolk. His father, Mr. P.J. McNamara, of this city, will go to Virginia soon to make his home with them. . . . Among the relatives here for the wedding was Mrs. Dennis McNamara of Frankfort (his sister-in-law, a widow).
Lexington Leader, 7 July 1915
Death record: William Ignatius McNamara, age 59, died on 29 December 1944 in Norfolk, Virginia; spouse Virginia Tingle McNamara; father Patrick McNamara; mother Mary McGovern.

............ 5.8 John McNamara (1888 - 1900), was born on 30 September 1888, baptized on 14 October 1888 at St. Paul's Church in Lexington; sponsors John Lynch and Anna McNamara. Died in Lexington on 29 October 1900 of meningitis.
Master John C. McNamara, of Lexington, is visiting his aunt, Mrs. Kate McNamara, on North St. Clair street.
Kentucky Irish American, Louisville, 26 August 1899
............ 5.9 Margaret Ellen McNamara (1892 - 17 September 1892)


Was there any connection between "Red Mack" (including in-laws, the Daley and Williams families of Dromcolliher, County Limerick) and the "Black McNamara's" of Lexington?

The "Black McNamara's" were from County Cork. The birthplace in Ireland of "Red Mack" is still unknown. On the plus side, as Sheila noted in her recent posting, Mathew "Red Mack" McNamara and Patrick H. McNamara (1844 - 1926), a "Black McNamara", were neighbors in Lexington in the 1870 census. However, in the St. Paul's baptism register, not one of the "Red Mack" clan (including the Williams and Daleys) appear as a baptism sponsor for a "Black McNamara".

Only one time does a "Black McNamara" appear as a baptism sponsor to the greater "Red Mack" clan. Patrick H. McNamara (1844 - 1926) was a baptism sponsor for "Honora", born in 1873, the daughter of James Williams (a brother-in-law of "Red Mack") and Mary Coughlin. "Honora" will later be called "Anne" (similar to the mother of P. H. McNamara, Honora Anne Sheehan McNamara).

Kentucky is famous for their family feuds lasting generations. Reading between the lines, very closely, there appears to have been some tension between the "Red Mack" and the "Black McNamara" families of Lexington:
An Explanation.
The LEADER is requested to make the statement that Miss Mary McNamara, who is one of the young ladies participating in the Maccabee's piano contest, is a daughter of Mr. Patrick McNamara of Constitution street, and not of Mrs. B. McNamara, as erroneously reported.
Lexington Leader, 15 May 1904
SIMILARITY IN NAMES LED TO CONFUSION
Miss Mary McNamara, whose name is entered in the piano contest conducted by the Maccabees is the daughter of Mr. Pat McNamara, of Constitution street, and not Miss Mary McNamara, of Loudon avenue, the similarity of names having led to some confusion.
Lexington Herald, 15 May 1904
Could the mysterious John McNamara (≈1884 - 1947) be descended from one of the four "Black McNamara's"? Three of the four McNamara's already had a son named John. John McNamara and Catherine Regan were the parents of three children, but none were named John. John McNamara, the husband of Catherine Regan, died in 1889. One reddit contributor suggested to Barbara Jean that they were the parents of the mysterious John McNamara born about 1884. Perhaps Catherine Regan McNamara, as a widow with three other young children, sent John to live with relatives in Ohio? But there was no son named John McNamara in the St. Paul's baptism register with parents John McNamara and Catherine Regan? And the McNamara's of Lexington never visited any relatives in Ohio. Plus, the mother of John McNamara was said to have died when he was young, Catherine Regan McNamara died in 1932. This scenario is very unlikely.

Could the "home folks" in Kentucky of John L. McNamara (1870 - 1963) of Oliver Springs, Tennessee, who he visited (or were visited by) in 1910, have been the "Black McNamara's" of Lexington? John L. McNamara's father was the galvanized Yankee, Thomas McNamara, born in Ireland about 1837. One of the "Black McNamara's" was a Thomas born about 1833. So for John L. McNamara of Oliver Springs, the "Black McNamara's" of Lexington could be second cousins at best. The McNamara's of Tennessee were brick masons, the "Black McNamara's" of Lexington were bakers, well drillers, grocers, fireman etc, but not masons. The "Black McNamara's" of Lexington were from County Cork, there is some evidence that the McNamara masons of Tennessee were from County Clare, which will get to later. This all leads me to believe that there was no connection between these two families.

There is one more McNamara family of Lexington that has yet to be researched.

To be continued.

Sduddy
Posts: 1826
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:55 pm

Hi Jimbo

That is a very full family tree and a lot of work by you. Good work tracing the “Black” McNamaras back to the townland of Mountcatherine in the parish of Kilshanahan, Co. Cork. I thought some trace of the house might remain, so looked at the later 25 inch map, which often shows the outlines of ruins, but the field where it was situated is completely clear. The old name for Mountcatherine* in Co. Cork is Tornóg, which means “Kiln,” but I see no trace of a kiln either.
* There’s also a Mountcatherine in Clare in the parish of Kiltenanlea (Doonass). As with the McNamaras in Co. Cork, there are McNamaras (Patrick and Matthew) in Mountcatherine, Co. Clare, at the time of Grifftih’s Valuation, but they are not there in 1901.

Well Jimbo, I was wrong when I said there were 1001 pages in my book: there are 1010 pages! My edition is 1974 by Pan books. I think it’s just that the pages are shorter than yours – the text begins on page 5 and the next page (a more typical page) begins with “faces and deep auburn hair” and ends with “they had just been expelled.” I’m sure you will find that your second page includes a bit more of the text. Anyway, I’m getting on well with reading it.

Sheila

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