Library Forum

I believe that John Vandeleur (1823-1881) of Cloonsnaghta is my great-great-grandfather. I've compiled as much info as I can from American censuses, Kildysart baptisms, and Irish civil records and censuses. I have some specific questions I'm seeking help with: 1) Could there have been more than one John Vandeleur of about the same age living in this community, and how would I be able to find out; 2) If there was only one John, was he married more than once. See list of children with name, month and year of baptism or birth, and mother's name.

John, Apr 1850, Judy Keane
Bridget, Nov 1851, Judith Keane
Catherine, Jun 1853, Joney Keane
James, Jul 1856, Margt Kean
Mary, May 1862, M. Keane
James, Nov 1866, Johannagh Kean
Susan, Nov 1868, Johanna Kean
Twins Martin and Joseph, Mar 1871, Susanna Keane

There was at least one other child, Patrick (born 1855-1860) per Irish census and listed as an informant for several deaths, and possibly Thomas born in the late 1840s, but I've only found Thomas in American census records.

Johanna Vandeleur died at Cloonsnaghta in 1910, age 82, so it seems that "Susanna" would be a misspelling of Johanna.

My great-grandmother was Bridget Vandeleur Costello (died 1938 in Amsterdam, New York, USA). Thanks for any insights or additional searching tips you can provide.

Hi dmaynus

“Susanna” and “Johanna” are the same person. Susan is often given for Joan/Johanna, and vice-versa.

Sheila

I did not know that, Sheila. Thank you very much. - Dawn

Hi Dawn - ironically the Bapt. Records for Killadysert are a few posts down from this one - and you will see that there are 3 families of Vandeleur in the area - James, John & Patrick - - check by surname of father - also I would say that the initial of M for the mother of one of the children is a mistake by the priest. - The Vandeleur family came from area of east Clare in the 1700's - -and were Landlords of over 2,000 acres in Kilrush and West Clare - Col. Crofton Moore Vandeleur - go to www.clarelibrary.ie - Genealogy page - Donated material - family histories - The Vandeleur family - posted by Senan Scanlan in 2010. - lots of info. - Census of 1901 - at www.census.nationalarchives.ie - DED of Killadysert - Clonsnaghta - Patrick Vandeleur and his wife, Margaret - and mother Johanna. - click on 'Household Return A' to see the actual form. - - Census of 1911 has spelling of Cloonsnaghta - - again - - also a Census for 1911 not far away from Cloonsnaghta -in area of Cahercon West - DED of Rynealon is family of Hector Stewart Vandeleur - son of Col. Crofton Moore Vandeleur of Kilrush House - - this house was burned in 1897. - and a good few years ago there was a book published in Kilrush - called Kilrush form Olden Times - it contained a photo of Fr. Vandeleur in Australia - he must have been a brother to your Bridget. - I do not know how your Vandeleurs are connected to the Kilrush family - cousins ?? Miriam.

Thanks Miriam, I was waiting for someone more conversant with the Vandeleurs than myself to come in on this one.
Hi Dawn
Further to what Miriam has said you will find Pat Vandeleur in the Tithe Applotment Books sharing a property in Clonsnaghta
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarc ... rch=Search
Take note that in the NAI records Vandeleur is mistranscribed as Vandeleun and the townland for some strange reason reads as Clontaghnaglar. (I have notified these errors to NAI)

It is interesting to look at Griffiths Valuation for this townland
http://griffiths.askaboutireland.ie/gv4 ... h=&height=
Here we find that Col John Vandeleur is the landlord for the whole of Cloonsnaghta, whilst John Vandeleur is one of the tenants on some 31 acres. My impression is that these are two different people, but somehow related, if perhaps distantly. I could not identify Col John Vandeleur in Senan Scanlan's treatise, someone may be able to enlighten us on that.

I recently completed transcription of the Kildysart Baptism Registers and found that the early part of the register had many gaps, so it doesn't surprise me that Patrick and Thomas are missing from the record.
HOWEVER
Dawn, your post alerted me to the fact that I was missing twins Martin & Joseph in 1871. Upon checking back I discovered that I had indeed overlooked their entry. My only defence is that there was shenanigans going on with that page of the register. One certain priest decided to do his own thing and completely disregard the proforma. Anyway that's now fixed and the posted file has been amended.

Above are two great examples of the need to double check everything in this genealogy business.
murf

Hi Murf and Dawn - it looks like Dawn's Vandeleurs are related to the Kilrush-based family - - maybe Col. John Vandeleur is a brother to Col. Crofton Moore Vandeleur - - father - John Ormsby Vandeleur. I looked at the surname index for Tithe Applotments 1825 - and Col. Crofton M. Vandeleur has land in the area of Killadysert and nearby - see www.clarelibrary.ie - Genealogy page. = Dawn - do you know of Fr. Vandeleur who was in Australia?? - I cannot find the book which has a photo of him. I hope you enjoyed all the history of the Kilrush family - lots of photos too on the Clare Library site. Miriam.

Hi Miriam, thank you for all the information you have provided. I suspect there is some connection between my John Vandeleur and the Kilrush family. The Kilrush family were Protestants, so perhaps in earlier times one of the sons converted or married a Catholic woman and their descendants continued in the Catholic faith. I've only just started looking into family members who emigrated to Australia, so am not familiar with the name you mentioned. If I run across it, I'll submit a post.

Thanks Murf, for all your hard work on the transcription of the Kildysart church records. It's so much easier to find interrelationships with a spreadsheet, and kinder to the eyes. Two sisters of John Vandeleur had children baptized at mid-century: Catherine, wife of James Costello, had children Ellen (1837), John (1839), and Pat (1841); and Anne "Nancy", wife of John McInerney, had daughter Biddy in 1850. Three of John's children (John, Bridget, and the elusive Thomas) are found living with either the Costellos or the McInerneys at various points in time in American census records. McInerney became "McNerney" in the U.S.

Hi Dawn - yes - the two families of Vandeleur are connected - as i said it is possible that Col. Crofton Moore Vandeleur of Kilrush was a brother to Col. John Vandeleur of Clonsnaghta. - If you are coming to Ireland please contact Facebook page of Kilrush and District Historical Society - also have a look at Facebook page - The Restoration and Preservation of the Churchyard, Kilrush - - Col. Crofton M.. Vandeleur was responsible for the development of town of Kilrush - most of the streets are called after the family -
I also see on the Tithes of 1825 - Vandeleur and McInerney - land at Cloonsnaghta. - there are many various spellings of McInerney on Clare Lbrary - lost in translation!! I will try to find the name of priest who was in Australia. I am originally from Kilrush. Miriam.

This may help your Australian search Dawn

Thanks, Murf -a great find - - I wouldn't be surprised that the author of the book - Mr. James McGuane - did not know the connection - book called 'Kilrush from Olden Times. - - my copy is somewhere in the house !! Dawn will have to visit Kilrush - and stand on Vandeleur St. !!
Looked at your Bapt. Records - - Watt Vandeleur - son of James of Blain (Blean) baptised in 1830 - cousins to family in Cloonsnagta. Miriam.

I just came upon this one in the Kilfiddane Register:
John Vandeleur, baptised 14 May 1876, father Mathias, mother Mary McCarthy, residence Derraslough, sponsor Mary Rochford.
The father, Mathias may be the Mathias Vandeleur in the Kildysart Register baptised in 1845. I browsed ahead thru the Kilfiddane register but could not spot any more Vandeleurs up to 1881.

Derry(as)lough seems to be one of those unofficial local names that does not appear in the official listings. It translates as

Derrylough Daire Loch A wood near a pond.
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... dix7_d.htm
I suspect that it may be in the vicinity of Derrygeeha Lough which lies on the southern boundary of Derrygeeha Townland.
murf

Hi murf, thanks for the tip on John, son of Mathias Vandeleur and Mary McCarthy. I've had my eye on Mathias. There are two of them. One appears in Napa County, California records beginning around 1880, and there's one who went to Queensland a few years after that. In the civil register of deaths - 1877 I think - there's a Mary Vandeleur who matches in age to Mary McCarthy. I'm also trying to pin down a Margaret Vandeleur, who died in Chicago, Illinois in 1929. Online death index lists father John and mother Susan Kane, and she was born around 1872. But I have not found her in either the baptismal record or birth registry. I've started looking in nearby parish records just in case she was baptized elsewhere. The earliest trace I have of Margaret is in the city directory of Amsterdam, New York in 1887, living in the same house as John E. Costello, husband of my great-grandmother Bridget Vandeleur. She also lived in Cohoes, New York for several years, and then appears to have returned home to Ireland for a time. She re-entered the U.S. in 1903; the record states she was going to a cousin Michael Roche in Chicago. The handwriting wasn't too good, so I'll have to check it again in case the name is Rochford. She was in Chicago at the time of the 1920 Census. Soon I hope to start tracing the Vandeleurs who went to Queensland around 1886: Mathias, along with James and Martin; some or all of them may have been sons of John (1823-1881).

Miriam, I do hope to see Kilrush when I finally get to visit Clare. It won't be this year, but maybe next year if I'm lucky.

Dawn, in the Kildysart Baptisms we find in 1862 the baptism of Mary Vandeleur, father John and mother M. Keane. I have had another look at the microfilm and it reads unambiguously as Mary. But keep in mind that the microfilmed record is in itself a transcript of the original register. Margaret was very often abbreviated to Margt, and in priestly scrawl could often be misinterpreted as Mary.
I realise there is a 10 year difference in dates, but ages have a tendency towards elasticity, and I think there is enough evidence here to warrant some suspicion that this may be your missing Margaret.
Cheers, murf

Hi Dawn and Murf - I just had a look at Graveyard Inscriptions for Kilfiddane cemetery - sometimes place names are shown which are not actual 'townlands' - (on Ordinance Survey map) - so Grave No. 19- In loving memory of Margaret Casey, Derrylough - died 1976 - and Casey family etc. - - - Flagstone - erected by Matt Vandeleur, Derrysallagh, in memory of his aunt, Winifred McMahon alias Finucane -who died May 1869 aged 62. - - neither Derrylough or Derrysallagh are on Clare Library info site. - - there is a Derrylough near Killimer - too far away. - Patrick Vandeleur is on Griffith Valutions of 1855 for Coolmeen, Kilfiddane parish.
Dawn - a daughter of a friend of mine met a Vandeleur in Australia a few years ago - I will try to get in touch with my friend after the week-end. Also when you are coming to Kilrush please contact Kilrush & District Historical Society - on Facebook - or put a note here !! There is a great amount of photos for Vandeleur family on www.clarelibrary.ie - select 'FOTO' on top bar and put in Vandeleur. - apparently an album was found in attic of a house in England and sent to Mr. Vandeleur, Kilrush !! - Postmaster opened it - a treasure! Miriam.

Hi Dawn

You have a third cousin once removed (descended from Susan Keane's brother Thomas) who is still living in Clare and is anxious to learn more about his Vandeleur cousins. If you pm me your e-mail address, I will pass it on to him.

Col. John Vandeleur who appears as immediate lessor in Griffith's Valuation was probably the John Vandeleur "Lt.-Col., late of 12th Lancers" who married his second cousin Alice Vandeleur (sister of Crofton Moore Vandeleur) in 1836. So the two Colonels were not brothers but brothers-in-law and second cousins.

Pages 37-39 of McGuane's book deal with the Catholic branch of the Vandeleur family. Here is the full reference:

title = {Kilrush from Olden Times},
publisher = {Clódóirí Lurgan Teo},
year = {1984},
author = {James T. McGuane},
address = {Inverin}

The priests in the Vandeleur family were Vincent and his nephew Peter. Vincent's father was Walter, whose obituary appears above and whose death is indexed as follows:

Australia, Death Index, 1787-1985
Name: Walter Vandeleur
Death Date: 24 Sep 1943
Death Place: Queensland
Father's name: John
Mother's name: Susan Keane
Registration Year: 1943
Registration Place: Queensland
Registration Number: 003287
Page Number: 2376