Cragnagour Donnellan's

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ADon
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:13 pm

Cragnagour Donnellan's

Post by ADon » Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:33 pm

Hi,

I am putting together my family tree and I was looking for any information on the Cragnagour Donnellan's,
what I have so far is Patt Donnellan Married Judy Conole not sure what date, I also am missing birth and death for both.
Their son John Donnellan Married Susan Carney in 1873, I can't find any birth records for Susan


Any Help would be much apricated,
Thanks,
Andrew.

Sduddy
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Cragnagour Donnellan's

Post by Sduddy » Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:54 am

Hi Andrew

You may have all of the below already, but bear with me, please.
I don’t know if you have looked at “Donated Material” in the “Genealogy and Family History” section of clarelibrary.ie. There you will find many donations to Clare Library, including transcriptions of the parish registers. Parish Priests kept registers of baptisms and marriages, but not of deaths (except in a couple of cases). These registers (up to the year 1880) were made viewable online by the National Library of Ireland (https://registers.nli.ie), and the one for Kilmaley parish is here: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0796. John Mayer’s transcription of the Kilmaley baptisms is here: https://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/cocla ... jmayer.htm.
My own transcription is here: http://www.ourlibrary.ca/phpbb2/viewtop ... f=1&t=7081, and I have attached a slice of it relating to the Donnellans in Kilmaley. I should say at this point that there were many records that I simply could not decipher, plus not every baptism was recorded. I see only two for Pat Donnellan and Judy Conole. One of these is for John who was baptised in May 1845.

Pat Donnellan probably married Judy Conole about 1840. I looked at the Kilmaley Marriages but do not see that marriage. It may be that Judy was from another parish. Marriages almost always took place in the parish of the bride, so their marriage may be recorded in some other parish register. My transcription of the Kilmaley marriages was not from the original register but from an article in The Kilmaley Magazine: http://www.ourlibrary.ca/phpbb2/viewtop ... f=1&t=7020 (scroll down for the attachments).

I imagine that Pat Donnellan was born about 1820. There are very few parish registers in Co. Clare that go back to that date, so I am doubting that you will find a record of his baptism, but I hope that you do. Don’t forget to let us know!

And now, finally to your query as to a birth record for Susan: I notice that the record of the marriage of John and Susan gives her father as Michael Carney, and her address as Magowna: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 208237.pdf

The Kilmaley baptisms show the baptisms of several children of Michael Carney of Magowna. I attach a slice of my transcription below. There are records for seven children – I am counting where the mother is called Bridget (the sponsor is called Bridget and I think the priest got confused between mother and sponsor). There is no child called Susan, but there is a child called Johanna baptised 17 Apr 1845, and Johanna was a variant of Susan (yes, hard to believe, but true – there are many examples).

Sheila
Susan Carney Magouna.xlsx
(58.18 KiB) Downloaded 77 times
Donnellan-Donlan Kilmaley Baptisms.xlsx
(60.32 KiB) Downloaded 77 times

ADon
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:13 pm

Re: Cragnagour Donnellan's

Post by ADon » Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:19 pm

Sheila,

I had seen a lot of the information you have posted,

I have been tracing my roots in other counties of Ireland and I have to say, it is a credit to all that worked on the Clare Library records,
It is the best I have seen and is great for anybody tracing their roots.

Johanna was a variant of Susan is great information and could shed a lot of light into Susan

Thanks you so much for your help,

Andrew.

Sduddy
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Cragnagour Donnellan's

Post by Sduddy » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:35 am

Hi Andrew

You may have looked at the record of the death of this Patt Donnellan, who died on Christmas Eve of 1879, and decided that he was too old, but I think he may be your ancestor: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 865727.pdf The death was registered in Ennis in 1880. This Patt is described as married, so his wife was still alive*. I haven’t found her death, however. I looked at all the deaths between 1879 and 1901. It’s quite possible that it was not registered.

Looking at Cragnagower** in Griffith’s Valuation (1856), I see that there is a Patrick Donnellan and a Patrick Donnellan, jun. The “jun.” suffix does not necessarily mean that the second Patrick was a son of the first Patrick, but I suspect that it often does. I this case Patrick jun. has the bulk of the land, and this makes me think that his father (if Patt sen. is his father) was an old man, and that he himself was already middle-aged, and the head of the family.
* I think that, occasionally, the question on marital status was mistakenly understood to be “Was the person ever married?”
** Cragnagower is in the civil parish of Drumcliff, and in the Catholic Parish of Kilmaley.

Andrew, I have a theory about Johanna-Susan-Judy. I posted it in Dec. 2017 and I’m still sticking to it:
Here is my transcription of Miltownmalbay baptisms 1858 – 1881: https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls ... 1/mode/1up

There are a couple of instances here of the names Joan and Susan being used for the same person. I think the actual name was Siobhan. If you check “Siobhan” on Wikipedia and you will see that it comes from the same stem as Joan and Jeanne. In Scotland it was anglicized as Judith.

Here are my ideas on the subject: There is no letter “J” in the Irish alphabet and “J” words entering the language (from other languages)* were spoken with a “Sh” sound*, similar to a French “J”. The name James became Seamus (pronounced “Shaymus”), and John became Sean (pronounced “Shaun”). I believe that, when presented with a Seamus, or a Sean, the priest wrote James, or John, and that on being presented with a Siobhan he usually wrote Joan, or Joanna. But (and here it gets a bit more difficult) he sometimes thought that Susan fitted better. The official in the local registration office, likewise, sometimes wrote Joan/Jane, and sometimes Susan. I believe (and remember) that Susan was spoken with a Sh sound, and I believe that, in Irish-speaking districts at least, Judith was spoken with a soft “J”, and that Judy was interchangeable with Susy. Judith, according to Wikipedia, was another anglicisation of Siobhan.
The names Susan and Joanna did not always come by the “Siobhan” route, of course, and then they presented no problem to anybody.

A note on the pronunciation of Siobhan: The letter “h” in Siobhain signifies a softening of the “b” which precedes it – in Gaelic script it was just a dot over the “b”. In the South and East of Ireland “b” is softened to “v” and the name is pronounced “Shivaun”, with the stress on the second syllable. As you go towards the North West, “b” is softened to “w” and the name is pronounced “Shewan”, with the stress on the first syllable - this sounds very like Joan.

*In earlier Irish, the letter “J” entered the language as “I”, or “E”, and so “Jesus” is “Iosa”, and St. John the Baptist is “Naomh Eoin Baiste”. This Eoin can be Owen, Eoghan, Eugene, or John.
Sheila

ADon
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:13 pm

Re: Cragnagour Donnellan's

Post by ADon » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:30 pm

Sheila,

I would say you are spot on. I found Johanna of Michael Carney and Mary Maguire 17/Apr/1845,
It all ties in, on John and Susan's marriage cert they are both down as 24 years old, born the same year,

Thanks for your help,

Andrew.

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