Father of the Bride - Please explain

Genealogy, Archaeology, History, Heritage & Folklore

Moderators: Clare Support, Clare Past Mod

Post Reply
murf
Posts: 365
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:58 am
Location: Qld Australia

Father of the Bride - Please explain

Post by murf » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:21 am

I'm a bit puzzled with this civil marriage record for Catherine(Katherine) Lyons, which shows the bride's father as Patt Barrett.
KateMarriage.png
KateMarriage.png (307.7 KiB) Viewed 13326 times
The Barrett and Lyons families lived nextdoor to each other in Ballyduffmore, Inagh Parish. In both cases the Head of Household was a widow in the 1901 Census. The birth record for Catherine Lyons shows that she was a daughter of Patrick Lyons(c1812-1898). So nothing so unusual about that.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 004450.pdf

I cannot locate an appropriate Patt Barrett in the census. I can only assume that he was a visiting family member who stood in to give away the bride in lieu of her deceased father.
Of course this doesn't validate the entry on the marriage certificate, but may help to explain it.
Was there any sort of protocol regards who represented the bride's father in such cases?

Jimbo
Posts: 591
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:43 am

Re: Father of the Bride - Please explain

Post by Jimbo » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:44 am

Hi Murf,

The 1883 civil birth record for Catherine Lyons does appear to have a mistake with the informant, who is typically the mother or father. In this case, the informant was the same mother, Bridget O'Shea of Maghera, as the child's birth record on the next line. But this still doesn't resolve your question.

From the Inagh parish records, Patrick Lyons and Margaret O'Keefe married in 1857 and 10 children are recorded in the Inagh baptism records from 1858 through 1876. It would be interesting to see the 1883 Catholic baptism record for "Catherine Lyons".

Could the father of Catherine Lyons have indeed been "Patrick Barrett" and the mother be one of the older Lyons daughters, let's say Mary born in 1861? In this situation, for whatever reason, if Mary's parents wanted to adopt and raise the child, would they be recorded on the civil record? I'm not sure, it would be interesting to see the church baptism record.

There is a Patrick Barrett baptized in 1857 in Inagh Parish. What happened to him? As you stated Patrick Barrett is listed on the 1904 marriage record of Catherine Lyons as a farmer. The bride Catherine Lyons was living at Ballyduffmore in 1904. You would assume that her father Patrick Barrett would also be living in Ballyduffmore, but perhaps you should cast a wider net when looking for him in the 1901 census?

murf
Posts: 365
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:58 am
Location: Qld Australia

Re: Father of the Bride - Please explain

Post by murf » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:45 am

Hi Jimbo
Regarding Bridget O'Shea as informant, that is not necessarily a mistake. Maghera is adjacent to Ballyduffmore, so I assumed that in spite of being nine months pregnant herself, Bridget O'Shea may have been acting midwife for the Catherine Lyons birth.
A couple of points to note, firstly the respective ages of Catherine's parents.According to the data we have, at the time Catherine was born, her mother Margaret was around 46 years, and her father Patrick(Lyons) 71 years, not unheard of, but perhaps pushing the boundary a bit.
Secondly, it appears that Patrick Lyons was somewhat delinquent when it came to registering the births of the younger members of his family. I was unable to locate civil birth records to match the baptisms of Honor(1873) and Michael(1878). The civil birth date for James(1876) is 4 weeks after his baptism(suggesting fine avoidance), while the record for Francis is a classic. The civil birth date for Francis is shown as 20 May 1881, this being registered on 10 Jun 1881, ie just sneaking inside the 21 day deadline. However, according to the church, Francis was baptised on 22 Dec 1880!!
Having Patt Barrett as the biological father of Catherine followed by some sort of unofficial adoptive arrangement seems hard to reconcile with the data, but as you suggest the baptism entry may provide a further clue. In the meantime my money is on a slip of the pen by Father McInerney, on the day surrounded by Lyons's and Barretts and inadvertently inserting Patt Barrett instead of Patt Lyons.

Jimbo
Posts: 591
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:43 am

Re: Father of the Bride - Please explain

Post by Jimbo » Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:13 am

Hi Murf,

Your latest explanation is the most plausible, of course. My scenario was influenced from having Scandinavian ancestry where children born out of wedlock was not so uncommon compared to Ireland. Mind you in 1882 when Catherine Lyons was conceived, it has been presented in another thread that County Clare had gone "balmy" during this Land War period with coercion arrests and moonlight outrages. Perhaps the very independent Lady Land League activists who visited Clare in 1881 and 1882 were a bad influence?

Your further comments do raise a few questions on the civil marriage records. Who is actually completing the document? From the wording of the form, I initially thought that the priest would sign "under the rites of the RC Church, by me". And the bride and groom would sign to the right of "this marriage was solemnized by us". And the witnesses would sign to the right of "in the presence of us". And the registrar provides his initials to the far left.

But is this actually what happened? From your 1904 example, it doesn't appear to have the signatures of five different people. I think the form is very misleading. Is the registrar completing the entire form? Or as you suggested is it completed by the priest, Father McInerny, and the registrar initials of the left? If one individual is completing the entire civil marriage document, which consists of four marriages per page, and they are copying the information from another source, it would be very easy to make mistakes. I see on the same page of the 1904 civil marriage for Catherine Lyons, there was another marriage of a bride whose father was John Barrett of Ballyduffmore. Perhaps this led to the slip of the pen as you suggested when reporting the correct father of Catherine Lyons of Ballyduffmore.

Sduddy
Posts: 1826
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Father of the Bride - Please explain

Post by Sduddy » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:31 am

Hi Murf and Jimbo

Here is some useful information on civil registration of marriages: https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com ... cords.html
From 1880, it was the priest who completed the registration form.
I agree that it’s most likely that Fr. McInerney made a mistake in entering Pat Barrett instead of Pat Lyons.

Sheila

Post Reply