Important Investigation at the County Jail.
On Friday a magisterial investigation was held at the jail in this town, into the charge brought against the Fenian prisoners at present in custody. The following magistrates were in attendance – Thomas Greene, chairman; Edmund Blake, R M, Richard Stacpoole, Marcus Keane, Francis Keane, Thomas Keane, James Foster Vesey Fitzgerald, Charles George Mahon, Thomas Pilkington, Dr P Maxwell Cullinan, and Michael Kerin, Esqrs.
A body of constabulary, under Sub-Inspector Curling, was in attendance. The County Inspector, Mr Jennings, was also present.
The usual guard of the 74th Highlanders posted at the jail since the commencement of the Fenian disturbance also did duty and a sentinel was placed at the outer gate to admit none but magistrates, the professional gentlemen engaged, and the representatives of the press.
Mr Alexander Morphy, Crown Solicitor attended on behalf of the crown, and Messrs C B Molony, M Molony, McNamara, Bunton, Hynes and John Cullinan, jun, appeared on behalf of the prisoners, of whom thirty-seven were present most of whom were young lads respectably attired. The arrangements at the jail of the accommodation of all parties concerned were such as to entitle the governor credit and the principal warder, Mr Slattery, told due need of approbation.
Mr Morphy said that this was not a pre[illegible] investigation, but one that he thought would end in having the prisoners now before them sent for trial. On the night of the 5th of March a body of people rose up in arms in various parts of the country. It would appear that people has assembled in arms near this town under the command of a man named O’Brien, whom they called ‘major’ and subsequently proceeded to several houses and made the occupants give up their arms. They intended to make an attack upon the police barrack at Corofin, and one man named Burns, who he believed kept the ammunition and dealt it out to the insurgents when required, suggested to make an attack upon the barrack at Ennis. He was sorry to say that a soldier of a very distinguished corps, the 74th, was amongt these insurgents. He had since been arrested and was now before them. There was also a soldier of the 9th, who was not yet made amenable. There would be evidence forthcoming to show that several visits to houses, which the approvers would describe to them, had occurred. He was sure that it would be satisfactory for the magistrates of the county to know that the attack had not been so serious as in other places. No life had been lost nor any houses scarcely attacked, for, though arms had been demanded and taken nothing occurred that he could altogether term an attack on a house. However it was part of the general rising which had created so much alarm throughout the country, and the sanguinary outrages connected with the general outbreak had rendered this a very serious affair. The parties they had under cognizance in this district were over a hundred men, and he would now call before them a man named Simon Nevin, who was one of those which had been arrested, and afterwards became an approver. There was another man also which had been implicated in the movement named Michael Ryan. He has also proposed to tell what happened on the occasion referred to, and he was also accepted as a witness by the Crown. He would not mince the matter, both Ryan and Nevin were approvers, but he did not see why they would not be entitled to credit, as they would corroborate the overt acts. He would now call Simon Navin.
[The usual practice, when reporting trials, was to omit the questions and report the replies only; this means that the evidence given at trials often sounds a bit disjointed] Nevin - I know a man named Lot Halloran, drapers’ assistant; I saw him on Shrove Tuesday at Corravoren”
Mr C G Molony objected to have the name of Lot Halloran introduced.
Navin re-examined – There was a soldier with him; the number on his cap was 9th; I went with them to Sullivan’s house at Curravoren; I saw John Maguire there, and a soldier; I was not previously acquainted with Maguire, except by sight; I was not previously acquainted with the soldier; could identify him. [The approver here indentified the second soldier he met who did not belong to the 9th, also identifies the prisoner John Maguire;] it was about six o’clock when I saw them at Sullivan’s; I only remained at Sullivan’s a few minutes; no one left the house with me; I know John Burns, the publican, of Ennis; I saw him on that evening; that was about eight o’clock; it was when leaving Sullivan’s a second time that I met Burns; the soldier now present of the 74th was then with me; I see John Burns here; identifies him; Burns spoke to me; I was coming to Ennis, but did not come after I met him; it was in consequence of what he said to me that I stopped; I went to Curravoren then; the soldier and Burns went back with me; I know Cornelius and James Sullivan; I saw them that evening at Sullivan’s door; they had arms; Cornelius and James Sullivan joined us; we then went to the cross of Curravoren; the two soldiers, the Sullivans, Burns and I, we called at Stephen Slattery’s; Slattery came out with us; we went to Pat Burn’s, John Kildea’s, and Martin Quigly’s; neither Burns, Kildea, or Quigly went with us; I saw Burns and Kildea but did not see Quigly; the soldier of the 74th had a gun; we then went on a couple of hundred yards; Burns then brought me across the fields at Knockaderry to the widow Halloran’s; Burns told the soldier to take charge of the men; I went into the Widow Halloran’s house; saw Dick Fitzgibbon there and the woman of the house; Fitzgibbon was assorting caps of a gun; Burns told him to choose big caps; Burns took the caps; Fitzgibbon and Burns left the house with me; Fitzgibbon had a gun; we went to Michael Carmody’s farm yard; we met the men there who were in charge of the soldier; that is Pat Hickey, the two Sullivans, Slattery, the soldier, and Corney Sullivan; identifies Cornelius Sullivan; Pat Kelly was also present; identifies him; Michael Crohan was there; identifies him; they were cleaning their guns; we remained there near an hour; Lott Halloran came; in consequence of what Lott Halloran said I went to the Ballycoree bridge; John Maguire met us before we went to Ballycoree; from the timber bridge of Ballycoree we went back to the village of Ballycoree; Maguire said there were more of the Ballycoree men there, and to go back for them; Burns and Maguire knocked at the doors of the houses; they knocked at Michael Macnamara and told the people to get up and dress themselves; they asked for arms; we then went near Martin Flannery; three or four went with us who were not with us before; I only knew two of them – John Bunce and Michael Macnamara; we then went towards Drumcliff church; Marin Flannery showed us the way to the church; did not meet Martin Flannery until we met him between his house and Drumcliff church; we told us he would show us the way; identifies him; we followed him; we met some other persons on the road near Mr Sheehan’s house; we met about fifty; we went towards Mr Fetherstone’s gate two deep; the man they called Major O’Brien told us to march two deep; I think it was after ten o’clock then; Major O’Brien was with the fifty me; about ten or twelve joined us at the gate; the party with the Major had weapons; the greater part of them had weapons, guns and pikes; there were then up to about a hundred present; about sixty had weapons; the men were counted by O’Brien; in the field in front of Featherstone’s gate the men were counted; Ned McInerney was the only one that joined us in the field; he spoke to the Major who asked him where were his men, and he said they would not come with him; we all came out two deep on the road, the Major and the soldier of the 9th ordered us to march out; we then went towards the burial ground of Drumcliffe; the Major placed George Dickson, James Crowe, John Miller, and myself in front; Quin, the 74th man, and Miller were in front; we went to a house, I believe Kearse’s; we got nothing there; I went in myself and ten or twelve others; Crowe, Dickson, and the two soldiers went in with us; we asked for arms, but got none; we then went towards Ballygriffey to Mr Jeremiah Kelly’s house; I went into the house along with Geo Dickson and James Crowe. Mr Kelly was upstairs, and spoke down to us. We got a gun and I took it away myself. We then returned to the cross near Ballygriffy. Pat Donovan, Charley O’Brien, and John Walsh joined us there. We then marched to Corofin. We stopped at this side of Corofin. Major O’Brien told us to stop. We went into a house, nine or ten of us. We then put down a fire to warm ourselves. We were going in and out. Don’t know the name of the man of the house. Would know the soldier of the 9th again. At Featherstones’s gate I also met Tom Pinder, Patrick Hickey, John Malone, Edward McInerny, John Walsh, Pat Donovan, Charles O’Brien, Pat Mungovan, Corney Sullivan, the stone-cutter, James Sullivan, Cornelius Sullivan, who is here present, Stephen Slattery, Pat Kelly, Michael Crohan, John Maguire, John Burns, Stephen Hehir, Richard Fitzgibbon, Thomas Moran, John McInerney, Michael Hassett, a man named Rochford, John Cunningham, Michael Cunningham, Pat Hagarty, Thomas Walsh, James O’Halloran, Lot Halloran, a man named Nelson, Michael Ryan, John Tuohy, John O’Neill, John McMahon, Michael McMahon, James Macnamara and Thomas Hanrahan. I don’t remember any other person. Mixed with others, Martin Flannery walked in front, and said he would show them the way. Saw no weapon in his hand anytime that night. He did not go to the place. We halted at Corofin. He left us at Mr Sheehan’s. I heard him say nothing before he left us. Nelson, Doyle, and Molony were with me to Corofin. [cross-examination of Nevin, by Mr C B Molony and by Mr James Hynes, here]
Saturday. At eleven o’clock the investigation was resumed at the jail. On the motion of Edmond Blake, Esq, R M, seconded by Marcus Keane, Esq, J P, the chair was taken by Thomas Greene, Esq, J P. The magistrates present were Edmond Blake R M; the Hon Theobald Butler, Marcus Keane, F N Keane, Charles G Mahon, Dr P Maxwell Cullinan, Alexander Bannatyne, Thomas Keane, Michael Kerin, Thomas Studdert, James F V Fitzgerald, D L, and Pierce O’Brien, Esqrs.
[Some further cross examination of Nevin here.] Some discussion arose as to how Nevin had named and identified the prisoners, after which Michael Ryan, the second approver, was next introduced, when he was examined by Mr Morphy – I left Cahircalla, where my residence is, on Shrove Tuesday evening, about 9 o’clock; James Doyle, of Drumbiggle, was with me. He had a pike. I saw him that evening in my house at 7 o’clock. We went to Cahircalla cross, where we met three others, John Nihil, Pat Crean, and Richard Wall. Nihil had a pike, Wall had a pike, Crean had no weapon. I also met James Madigan. We went towards Drumcliffe. Before we came to Drumcliffe we turned in at Featherstone’s gate to a field. We met a great number of persons. I knew Charles O’Brien. I saw the man called Major O’Brien. Richard Fitzgibbon, Stephen Hehir, Lot Halloran, a soldier of the 9th, Cornelius Sullivan, stonecutter, another Cornelius Sullivan, Stephen Slattery, John Molony, John Walsh, Martin Flannery. There were about one hundred present. About forty armed, twenty with pikes and twenty with guns. They went up to the rear of the burial ground of Dromcliffe. We marched two deep like soldiers, by order of O’Brien. We went towards Corofin two deep. A good many went home from Featherstone’s gate. Some of our party went to take guns. We halted near village of Corofin. I did not know any one which went to take arms but Simon Nevin of Corrovoran (This was the other approver.) We went into a house near Corofin. About six or eight went in to take a drink of water and get lights for our pipes. This was far into the night. John Burns went into the house with me. There was a candle lighted. Burns was distributing ammunition to some of the parties who were inside. The men were going in and out of the house. We went within a hundred yards of the village of Corofin. The major was with us. The party did not appear to take orders from anyone. The major told us to come down from the cross of Corofin. It was the major who ordered us to stop at the cross. Saw no one in command but the major. I don’t know that anyone gave orders to take arms. Some of our party went into Corofin. The major ordered them in. They returned and told him there was no one on the street. The major and three others left us, two of them were soldiers. The major told us if we heard a shot fired in Corofin to rush in. The major went in to bring a proper account if anyone were on the streets. He said we would take the police barrack. At Drumcliffe the major said as we were not strong enough to take the police barrack at Ennis to go to take the barrack of Corofin. We did not attack the barrack at Corofin. The major after going into Corofin, returned no more for us. I then went home. I met two boys near the cross of Dysert, O’Brien and Shannon. They had two double barrelled guns. There were eight or nine with me at the time. They wanted us to go back and take the barrack of Corofin, and they would help us. The witness here identified the prisoners named by him, of whom all were present except nine, namely, John Nihil, Lot Halloran, Charles O’Brien, Major O’Brien, the soldier of the 9th, Corneilus Sullivan, stonecutter, John Walsh, and O’Brien and Shannon, who were met on the road near Dysert. [Cross examination of Ryan here.] Dr Cullinan called on Mr Murphy and said that as far as he could see, the evidence did not appear to him to involve the prisoners beyond the charge of misdemeanour. He wished to know if Mr Murphy intened to define the particular charge on which he relied for information.
Mr Murphy observed that the time did not arrive for him to make an application for a committal against the prisoners on a specific charge, and even that it had, he would be slow to suggest any particular course to the bench, but he thought the evidence might extend beyond the charge of misdemeanour.
The depositions of the approver having been read over to him he signed them with his own hand as did Nevin the other approver also.
Patrick Brody was next examined, in corroboration of the former testimony by Mr Morphy. His evidence was to the effect that he lived at the cross, near to Corofin, and that on the night in question, several armed bands entered his house, where they remained for a considerable time. They said they were Fenians.
This witness was not cross-examined.
The Inquiry then adjourned.
This Day. At 11 o’clock the court sat. The following magistrates were present – Thomas Greene, Chairman; Edmund Blake, R M, Dr P Maxwell Cullinan, Thos Keane, F N Keane, Charles Studdert.
The Chairman asked Mr Murphy to proceed, as the court was prepared to hear him.
Mr Murphy said that he closed his case, and called on the bench to commit the prisoners for trial.
Mr Hynes required to have Nevin brought up in order that he would ask him a few questions.
Mr Murphy objected, but the court ruled he would be produced, in order to be examined, relative to circumstance and facts which had not already been stated by him, but subject to Mr Murphy’s objections.
Nevin was then introduced but was not examined, as Mr Hynes waived his privilege.
Mr C B Molony rose and said that he would on his observation for the defence rely on the law of the case and he would cite a number of decisions given by some of the most eminent judges of the Irish Bench, to show that the uncorroborated evidence of an approver or approvers could not be relied on. He need not, he hoped, tell the court any member of approvers could not, by deposing to the same thing, he regretted as corroborating one another – Ryan the approver was admittedly a man who had violated his oath of allegiance twice as he had been enlisted on two occasions in the militia. He had also violated his oath as a Fenian, for he had admitted that the had been a sworn Fenian. Under such circumstances it would be utterly out of the power of the court to attach credit to his uncorroborated testimony. Nevin’s testimony could not be relied on as he had foresworn himself, for no one could believe that he had sworn truth, when he stated that he had been forced to go to the meeting at Drumcliffe. If there at all, it was clear he went there in the capacity of an informer, as he alleged that he went through the crowd at Fetherstone’s field for the purpose of recognizing the persons present. Nevin swore that he did not see Ryan after they had gone to Ballygriffy, and then that he saw him in a horse and car, but not after, whereas Ryan deposed that he had seen Nevin near Corofin several hours after he had been in Ballygriffy, and that he had been speaking to him there. That was not a mere discrepancy but a palpable contradiction which showed the reckless character of the evidence of these men. With regard to the fact that two or more approvers could not corroborate one another, he would read for the court the decisions of the learned judges he had referred to, amongst them was the decision of that eminent Judge Justice Perrin. After the law laid down in the extracts, which he (Mr Molony) had read, he did not think it necessary to dwell further on that portion of the case, except to say that the approvers had not been corroborated in a single fact by Brady who had been examined on Saturday which legally could be looked on as corroboration. The great principal of British law was to presume every man innocent until proved guilty: and he (Mr Molony) would not require more for his clients that what the law allowed, but this much he required, and then he was sure the court would concede to the prisoners. It was obvious that Nevin had been guilty of great recklessness with respect to the case of McInerney who had been acquitted on Friday. Nevin at first identified him, and subsequently he stated that he believed he was not the man alleging as a reason for his contradiction and precaution that he first indentified him when he was standing behind McInerny’s back. Taking this to be the case, it only showed that the approvers utter recklessness to attempt to identify any man without being sure of his identity. He hoped the court would not rely on evidence emanating from so foul a source, especially when uncorroborated. He would be able to produce Sergeant Doyle, of the police force, to prove that one of the parties alleged to have been at Dromcliffe on the night of the 5th, could not have been there at the hour alleged by Nevin. That young man was John Cunningham, and he would also be able to produce Mr Morely who would dispose as to the hour he had left off business and quitted Mr Russell’s office, where he had been employed, may respectable witnesses could be produced on behalf of many of the prisoners, and surely these respectable witnesses were entitled to as much credit as common approvers. They would prove that it was utterly impossible that many of the prisoners could have been there at the hour alleged. If the approvers were disbelieved in some case, it would be unsafe to rely on them in any. One fact might illustrate the nature of the evidence of the approvers. It appeared that Nevin had sworn he had never had contradiction or falling out with John Cunningham, but the contrary was the fact, as he had accused Cunningham of having reported on the Clare Journal the charge brought against him for ciminal assault on a female, and had attempted to strike him. He would now call his witnesses and would rely on the justice of the court to consider all the circumstances of the cases before them. (The investigation is still proceeding).
Committal of the Fenian Prisoners. Investigation at the Jail. The Court assembled at eleven o’clock on Monday morning, and consisted of the following gentlemen: - Thomas Greene (chairman); Edmund Blake, R M; Marcus Keane, Thomas Keane, Francis N Keane, Dr P Maxwell Cullinan, Charles George Mahon, and Charles Studdert Esqrs.
Mr Alexander Morphy, Crown Solicitor, appeared on behalf of the Crown, and Messrs C B Molony, M Molony, Hynes, McNamara, Bunton, and John Cullinan, jun., on the part of the prisoners.
Mr C B Molony having addressed the Court on behalf of the prisoners, the following evidence was called for the defence:
Miss Isabella Musgrave deposed that she was the step daughter of Francis Lally, and that she lived with him and occasionally attended at the bar; she saw the prisoners, Michael and John Cunningham, there on thennight of the 5th between ten and eleven o’clock; she also saw Michael Hassett; he was in the house from an early hour in the evening, and remained until twenty minutes past ten; he inquired what the hour was, as he used to be particular, in order to be in time at the workhouse, when he was a teacher.
Miss Maryanne Lally, examined by Mr C B Molony – Corroborated the testimony of the former witness, and both witnesses were cross examined by Mr Morphy.
Mr Francis Lally, examined by Mr Michael Morphy, said that Hassett was in his house up to the time specified by the former witnesses; that he keeps a bagatelle table; said that the two Cunninghams were in his house until a few minutes past eleven o’clock, when he requested the parties to retire, as he feared lest a new game would be commenced. The witness further stated that he always closed his door at eleven o’clock, but that it generally takes a little time to clear out the house. He and some members of his family were to perform a religious duty at chapel next day, which made her particular in wishing to get parties out of the house, and also caused him to recollect the circumstances of their being there.
Cross-examined by Mr Morphy – I always close my front door at eleven o’clock; I saw no revolvers or arms in my house that night.
John Carmody, the bagatelle marker – Corroborated the former evidence with regard to the parties being in the house up to eleven o’clock, and a little time longer.
Mr Thomas McDonnell examined by Mr C B Molony – Deposed to having seen the two Cunninghams between ten and eleven o’clock at Lally’s house. It was near eleven when he say them last.
Mr Michael Alfred was examined by Mr C B Molony. He said that he knew John Cunningham, and had been in the habit of visiting him; he recollected Shrove Tuesday evening, and was in the house of Mrs Houlihan; he met John Cunningham there, and remained with him till about ten o’clock; he (Cunningham) could conveniently get home from Lally’s house.
Mr Michael Molony, solicitor, was examined with reference to the character of Michael Cunningham, and he stated that during several years that he was in his employment as clerk. He was exceedingly well conducted, an had no reason to suspect his loyalty.
Mr Michael Cunningham, the father of John Cunningham deposed that his son was in on the night in question at about a quarter or twenty minutes past eleven; and that he had slept with him himself, and that he could not have been at the Drumcliffe gathering.
Mr Hynes then addressed the bench of the parties for whom he was concerned, and referred to what, in his opinion, was the course to be followed by the bench in this particular case. He also bore testimony to the great fairness with which his friend Mr Morphy had conducted the case, and urged the magistrates to consider the respectability of the witnesses called for the defence, upon whose evidence, he was quite sure, they might confidently rely. After going minutely into the testimony of the approvers, and pointing out to the bench the inaccuracy of some statements made by them, he made a powerful appeal on behalf of the prisoners, and concluded his able speech by endeavouring to show, that if they were eventually committed they were entitled to bail.
Michael Macnamara was examined by Mr Hynes, his evidence being to the effect that on the night of Shrove Tuesday he was forced out of his bed by a number of men, none of whom he identified, except Flannery whose voice he recognized.
In answer to a question from the bench the witness said that he could not include Flannery among the party, and that he was there like himself very unwillingly.
Michael Molony was next examined by Mr Hynes. His evidence was to the effect that Flannery was compelled by the party to go with them, what he overheard one of them say that he should be fetched.
Miss Mary O’Halloran, sister of the prisoner, James O’Halloran, deposed to her being in her brother’s house, between ten and eleven o’clock, with him.
Miss Margaret O’Halloran, another sister, deposed that she was in his company in his house up to half past ten.
Some other credible witnesses corroborated this evidence.
In the case of the prisoner, Thomas Moran, his mother, Mrs Moran, and a witness named Patrick Hoare, deposed that the young man had gone to bed at about nine o’clock, and that he had not left the house on the night of the 5th, until morning.
The witnesses were cross-examined by Mr Morphy as in the other cases.
Mrs McMahon, mother of the prisoner, Michael McMahon, deposed that her son was in her house at about nine o’clock in the evening when he joined them in the rosary, then he went to bed about eleven o’clock when she fastened the door, and that on the next day, Ash Wednesday, he and she attended chapel together to perform religious duties.
Thomas Kenny, clerk to Mr John Petty, deposed that he was no relation to the prisoner, that he lodged in his mother’s house and that he saw him go to bed on the night of the 5th about eleven o’clock.
Mrs Hassett, of Clare Castle, mother of the young man Michael Hassett, stated that her son slept in her house at Clare Castle, on the night of the 5th.
Mr Thomas McMahon, victualler, on being examined, said that he saw the prisoner, John Molony, after ten o’clock in the street, and also that he walked with the prisoner, Edward McInerney, to the door of his sister’s house at about half-past ten, or eleven a little later, but at all events at half-past ten.
At this stage of the proceedings the solicitors for the defence, on consulting with each other, agreed on closing for the defence.
Mr Michael Molony then addressed the court on behalf of the prisoners for whom he appeared [a long speech by Mr Molony here, during which he refers to Michael McInerney and Martin Flannery as having already been discharged: “…and I will go further and say, that a bench of magistrates ought not to subject any man to the indignity of a trial upon informers testimony, however, consistent, if it is displaced by satifactory and unimpeachable witnesses. But what class of informers testimony have we here? It is sustained, consistent, not contradictory in itself? I say it has not these attributes; it has been utterly broken down in some cases; you have already refused to believe it, when you discharged Michael McInerney and Martin Flannery." Mr Molony also makes a passing mention of “Charivari”: “It has been thrown out that these people at Lally’s may mistaken as to the night these young men were there, you all know that I prove Tuesday night is specially remarkable in this town, for a custom prevails of have a ‘Charivari’ of old pots and pans throughout the streets, intended I believe as a mark of disapprobation towards those who remain in ‘single blessedness.’" This speech by the defence was followed by another long speech by Mr Morphy for the prosecution.] The magistrates then retired for consultation, and after being absent about half an hour they returned into court, when the Chairman pronounced their decision as follows: After a patient and careful investigation, which has lasted three days, the magistrates have been able to retire to consider their decision, and it only remains for me now to announce to you what that decision is. While determined at the same time to give you the benefit of any extenuating circumstances connected with the case, we cannot forget the enormity of the offence with which you stand charged; and I am bound to observe that you have been ably defended by the professional gentlemen engaged on your behalf, and the crown prosecutor (Mr Morphy) has not only given the court the assistance of his great experience, but he has dealt mercifully with the case not unduly pressing anything against you. It is my painful duty, therefore – and I very much regret, as every one must, to see so many of my fellow-townsmen placed in your position – to commit you for trial. In the case of Madigan and Crane, the magistrates do not think that any evidence has been brought against them, except that they met in the street. Under those circumstances no informations will be granted against them. I may also state that the question of bail has been considered, which the magistrates decline to accept, leaving it to you to apply to the authorities in the usual way.
Mr M Molony – Does that apply in every case?
The Chairman – Yes.
An order for the discharge of Madigan and Crane was at once made out, and they were at once set at liberty.
The Court then rose.
The following are the names of the parties committed for trial: John Burns, James Halloran, John Macguire, Cornelius Sullivan, James McNamara, Pat Hickey, Ned McInerney, Quin, the soldier of the 74th, Stephen Slattery, Thomas Welsh, Patrick Hagerty, Stephen Hehir, John Tuohy, John O’Neill, John Nelson, James Rochford, Michael Hasset, John Cunningham, Michael Cunningham, Dick Fitzgibbon, Patrick Kelly, Thomas Moran, John McMahon, Michael Crohan, Richard Wall, Thomas Hanrahan, James Doyle, George Dickson, John Molony, John Crowe, James Crowe, Michael McMahon.