Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

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Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:04 am

Hi Sheila,

Thank you very much for tracing John Hurst, one of the five Glandree prisoners, from Tulla to West Clare. The newspaper article in the Flag of Ireland stated that John Hirst was a weaver, which was the same occupation as John Herst and his father living in Roslara in 1901. But I would never of thought to look for John Herst in West Clare. And thanks for providing the link to the ancestry board. Christine from New Zealand will be happy to get "any info about the Irish connection", albeit, probably not what she was expecting.

The first marriage in 1884 of John Herst to Julia McNamara, the daughter of Thomas McNamara, of course, caught my interest given our search for the missing Civil War soldier Thomas McNamara.

As you stated, Julia McNamara Hurst died shortly after John Hurst was released from prison in 1900. The death record transcription stated that she died on 13 August 1900 at the age of 55 years old. So Julia McNamara was born about 1845, and John Hurst we know was born in 1858. An unusual age difference, so I took a close look at the death record:

1900 Civil death record for Julia McNamara Hurst.jpg
1900 Civil death record for Julia McNamara Hurst.jpg (104.59 KiB) Viewed 562 times

At first glance the registrar does indeed appear to have written "55" for her age. But then compare her age to the numbers in sequence on the left, specifically, to "473". The registrar writes a very unusual "3" that resembles a "5". Next, check out the "5" in "475". Like most people, he writes a "5" using two pen strokes. Each number written for Julia's age was done by only one pen stroke. Therefore, I think the registrar actually wrote "33" for her age at death in 1900 — so born about 1867. Thus, about 17 years old when she married in 1884. A bit young, but this was the reported age at death. I tried to confirm her age with a baptism record, but could not find a Julia McNamara born to a Thomas McNamara. Nor a civil birth record, but I expect that she might have been a few years older than 33 when she died, and perhaps born just prior to the start of civil records in 1864.

Most baptism records past 1860 are available in Tulla and its neighboring parishes. Perhaps "Julia" was baptized under a different name? I am reminded of the Walsh family (page 27), where Josephine Walsh was baptized as Johanna Walsh. Even searching just based upon her father, Thomas McNamara, led to no leads. Since Thomas McNamara died prior to Julia's marriage in 1884, his death would be recorded in the civil records. A Thomas McNamara died in Tulla in 1867 (age 45), in 1867 (age 48), in 1869 (age 58), all in Tulla registration district; and also in 1867 (age 35) in Galway registration district. When these records become available on-line, they might provide an important clue to the identity of Julia McNamara.

When Julia McNamara married in 1884 she stated that she was living in Roslara. There was a John McNamara living in Roslara who between 1858 and 1884 had fathered 13 children. Did Thomas McNamara die at a young age, leaving his daughter Julia an orphan who went to live with relatives in Roslara?

Sheila, you have mentioned this John McNamara of Roslara whose second marriage was to Catherine McNamara of Derrymore Carmody, known as Derrymore East, only in passing (pages 14 and 19). I've researched both McNamara families below:

McNamara of Rosslara (Tulla)

A Michael McNamara was reported as an occupier of land in Rosslara in Tulla tithe applotment books of 11 February 1827.

There were no McNamara's reported in Rosslara townland in the 1855 Griffith Valuation. However, I still believe it would be likely that the Michael McNamara family was living in Rosslara, but as laborers / subtenants of a primary lessor. Thomas Clune, in Plot 3, leased houses (plural), 46 acres, valued at £25, and appears quite prosperous. Patrick Scanlan, in Plot 1, held 77 acres, also valued at £25. The Scanlan family also appear to have been quite prosperous farmers who likely hired laborers to do the dirty work. Their prosperity is evidenced by having a son who was a Catholic priest, and getting a daughter's marriage announcement in the Irish press, as well as having four priests at the wedding which must cost money:
POWER AND SCANLAN: April 24, at the Roman Catholic Church, Tulla, county Clare, by the Very Rev. J. Hays, P.P., V.G., assisted by the Rev. J. Scanlon (brother of the bride) [James, born 1846?], and the Rev. P. Quinn and Rev. Mr. Lynch, Thomas, third son o A. Power, Castlefergus, to Annie, third daughter [born 1856] of P. Scanlon, Roslara, Tulla, county Clare.
Flag of Ireland, 5 May 1883

John McNamara (born ≈ 1825; died in 1901 at the age of 76), son of Michael McNamara (per his second marriage), and Bridget O'Brien (born ≈ 1830; died in 1866 at the age of 36) were the parents (unknown marriage record) of four and possibly five children in Rosslara (Tulla Catholic parish records):

1.0 Michael McNamara, unknown baptism, perhaps baptized in home parish of his presumed mother, Bridget O'Brien? Or else his father John McNamara could have been married three times, with a wife prior to Bridget O'Brien? Michael was the eldest son, named after his grandfather. Michael McNamara was age 41 living in Brooklyn in 1900, so likely born about 1858 or 1859. His year of immigration was reported as 1883; and was living with his wife Nora (age 31, born Ireland, arrived 1890) , marriage year reported as 1893. In 1910 Michael and Nora [O'Brien] McNamara were living at Pearl Street in Brooklyn with brother Peter McNamara and boarder Emma Constable (age 11 in 1910; reported as adopted daughter in 1920).
............ 1.1 Emmaline J. Constable (age 1 in 1900)
MICHAEL McNAMARA, who died yesterday, was born in Roslara, Ireland. He came to this country as a child [in fact, about 24 years old] and had resided for the past forty years in St. Ann's and St. James' parishes. He was employed by the Edison Electric Company. He is survived by a widow, Nora O'Brien McNamara; a daughter, Emmaline J.; five sisters, Jane, Margaret, Mary, Nellie and Mrs. Anna O'Connor, and four brothers, Matthew, Patrick, Peter and Timothy. Funeral from his late home, 269 Pearl Street, Saturday, at 9:30 A.M., with requiem mass at St. James' Pro-Cathedral. Interment will be in Cavalry Cemetery.
Brooklyn Times Union, 12 January 1922
2.0 Mat McNamara, of Roslara, baptized on 6 January 1860; sponsors Julia O'Brien, John O'Brien. Living in 1922 as per brother's obituary, but no evidence as to where.

3.0 Jane McNamara, of Roslara, baptized on 9 October 1861; sponsors Patrick Burke, Mary Connellan. Living in 1922, but no evidence as to where. From brother Michael's obituary, she was most likely not married.

4.0 Margaret McNamara, of Roslara, baptized on 10 June 1863; sponsors Patt Quike(?), Nancy McMahon. Living in 1922, as above comments.

5.0 Mary McNamara, of Roslara, baptized on 27 March 1865; sponsor Honora Curley. Living in 1922, as above comments.

A Bridget McNamara, age 36, died in Tulla registration district in 1866 (online record not yet available).

The widower, John McNamara, farmer, of Roslara, son of Michael McNamara, was married to Catherine McNamara, of Derrymore Carmody, daughter of James McNamara, on 17 March 1867, at Tulla chapel by the Rev. James Bowles; marriage witnesses Patrick Bourke, Margaret Fitzgerald. The Catholic marriage stated "married by special license" (see note 1 below). Neither parent was reported as deceased in the civil record. This was true for James McNamara of Derrymore who died in 1876 (see McNamara of Derrymore family tree in my next posting). Michael McNamara would have been much older. When additional death records become available online, this may confirm if Michael was still living in 1867 as well as his age and marriage status.

John McNamara and Catherine McNamara had eight children together in Rosslara (per Tulla Catholic parish records through 1878; Tulla civil registration for later births). John McNamara, of Roslara, farmer, married, age 76 years, died on 1 January 1901 (prior to census); informant daughter Annie McNamara. Catherine McNamara was reported as age 56 in 1901, and age 70 in 1911. <Rosslara, Ballinahinch, House 8, House 6> Kate McNamara, of Rosslara, widow of a farmer, age 72 years, died on 3 April 1916; informant son Patrick McNamara.

6.0 James McNamara, of Roslara, baptized as "Mack" on 9 February 1868; sponsors Pat Meehan, Anne Mack. Died prior to 1922, as not listed in brother Michael's obituary. A James McNamara died in 1869 at the age 0 years in Tulla registration district (online record not yet available).

7.0 Anne McNamara, of Roslara, baptized on 4 April 1869; sponsors Martin Molony, Brigid McNamara. Ann McNamara, age 7 years, died at Rosslara on 7 November 1876; informant John McNamara.

8.0 John McNamara, of Roslara, baptized on 8 October 1870; sponsor Mary McNamara. John McNamara died in Manhattan on 9 September 1894; death certificate states: age 23, born in Ireland, parents John McNamara and Kate McNamara; residence 22 Beach Street; 2 years in Manhattan & USA.

9.0 Ellen McNamara, of Roslara, baptized as "Mack" on 18 December 1872; sponsors Mat Mack, Ellen Mack. Ellen McNamara, born 18 December 1873, in Tulla, Clare, declared to become a U.S. citizen on 31 January 1933 — most likely to collect social security. Her arrival in New York was reported as 1 April 1892. Indeed, Ellen McNamara did arrive in NY on the SS Germanic on 1 April 1892. She was the contact person for her younger sister Annie, who arrived in 1904. Nellie McNamara, age 33, returned home to visit her mother, Kate McNamara of "Roslara, O'Callaghan Mills", in 1912 (Tom McDowell listing). Ellen McNamara, of 1158 3rd Avenue, daughter of John McNamara and Catherine McNamara, died on 1 May 1948; informant sister Anna O'Connor.

10.0 Patrick McNamara, of Roslara, baptized as "MacNamara" on 10 September 1876; sponsors Mathew McNamara, Mary McNamara. <Rosslara, Ballinahinch, House 8, House 6> Patrick McNamara, of Roslara, farmer, son of John McNamara, married Hanora Carmody, of Kilbane, daughter of farmer Michael Carmody, on 23 February 1909 at Kilbane chapel in county Clare (Limerick reporting district).
............ 10.1 Bridget McNamara (age 1 in 1911) <Rosslara, Ballinahinch, x, House 6>

11.0 Peter McNamara, of Roslara, baptized as "Mack" on 20 June 1878; sponsors James Mack, Mary Cullou. Peter McNamara petitioned to become a U.S. citizen in NY on 1 May 1903; he reported his birth date as 29 June 1878, and arrival in NY on 10 May 1897. Indeed, Peter McNamara, age 19, was on the SS Britannic, arriving in NY on 21 May 1897. In the 1910 census, Peter McNamara (age 30) was living with his brother Michael McNamara (age 57), at 269 Pearl Street. "Peter McNamara, age 31, of 269 Pearl street, and Johanna M. O'Brien, 26, of 230 Troy avenue" were married on 10 November 1910 (Times Union, Brooklyn, 11 November 1910).
............ 11.1 Francis McNamara (age 8 in 1920)
............ 11.2 James McNamara (age 6 in 1920)
............ 11.3 Julia McNamara (age 2 in 1920)
............ 11.4 Ellen McNamara (1923 - 1923)

12.0 Thadeus McNamara, of Roslara, born on 1 March 1882 per Tulla civil registration *. Timothy McNamara, age 21, of Tulla, arrived in New York on 11 April 1902 on the SS Germanic, going to his brother Peter McNamara of 60 Beach Street, New York. Was living in 1922 according to brother Michael's obituary, perhaps still in New York?

* Timothy, Thady, Thadeus are all separate names when searching using irishgenealogy.ie

13.0 Annie McNamara, of Roslara, born on 14 April 1884 per Tulla civil registration. <Rosslara, Ballinahinch, House 8, x> Annie McNamara, age 20, from Tulla, arrived in New York on 14 September 1904 on the SS Oceanic, going to her sister Ellen McNamara of 19 East 67th Street, New York. Anne O'Connor was the informant and reported sister when Ellen McNamara died in 1948. On 21 January 1912 , Anne McNamara, age 25, born in Ireland, daughter of John McNamara and Catherine McNamara, married Francis O'Connor, age 31, born in NY, son of Irish born John O'Connor and Elizabeth Donovan. The O'Connor family lived in Manhattan, on West 51st street in 1920, and Ninth Avenue in 1940.
............ 13.1 John O'Connor, (age 7 in 1920 census)
............ 13.2 Frank O'Connor, (age 5 in 1920 census)
............ 13.3 Catherine O'Connor, (age 2 in 1920 census)
............ 13.4 Ambrose O'Connor, (age 18 in 1940 census)

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James McNamara (≈1823 - 1918) of Cloonloum More (Clonlea)

A John McNamara was reported in Clonloum, Clonlea in the Tithe Applotment books dated February 1827.

In 1855 Griffith Valuation, there were no McNamara's reported in Cappalaheen, Cloonloum More or Cloonloum Beg townlands.

James McNamara and Catherine Staunton (or Stanton, Stundon etc) were the parents of nine children. Four children were baptized in Tulla Catholic parish with a location of Derrymore; five children were baptized in O'Callaghan Mills Catholic Parish with a location of Clonloum, or variation thereof — thanks Sheila and Sharon for these respective transcriptions.

James McNamara and Catherine Stauntion named their first born son, John, in 1849. Very likely, James McNamara (≈1823 - 1918) was the son of the John McNamara reported in Clonloum in the Tithe Applotment books of 1827. Perhaps James McNamara's move from Derrymore to Clonloum around 1858, was a return to his father's holding when John McNamara became too old to work his land? John McNamara of Clonloum might be one of the several John McNamara's whose deaths were registered in Tulla between 1864 and 1870, including: a John McNamara died in 1866, aged 68; a John McNamara died in 1868, aged 67; a John McNamara died in 1869, aged 69; and a John McNamara died in 1870, aged 92. These records are not yet available online, but might provide evidence that James McNamara was the son of John McNamara of Clonloum.

Catherine McNamara, of Clonloum, married, 70 years old, farmer's wife, died on 21 November 1894; informant husband James McNamara. James McNamara, farmer, widower, was 76 years old in 1901 living in "Clonlum More". In 1911, James McNamara, labourer, widower, 85 years old, was a boarder living with Patrick O'Brien (age 75) in "Cloonloum More". <Clonlum More, Kyle, House 18; Cloonloum More, Kyle, House 9>

Finding the death record for James McNamara of Clonloum was a struggle as I believe the registrar made a few mistakes. A James McNamara, of Clonloum, married, labourer, 45 years old, died on 10 October 1918 at Scariff Hospital and the registrar entry stated "Old Age Certified". It is clearly written "45", but the transcription at irishgenealogy states "75" — I reckon both are incorrect. In the 1911 census, the only McNamara living in Clonloum was the 85 year old James McNamara. I believe that James McNamara, of Clonloum, a widower, died in October 1918 at the approximate age of 95 years old. So born about 1823, one year before his wife Catherine Staunton, and their first born daughter was born in 1843.

Coincidentally, James McNamara died the day the Irish mail boat RMS Leinster was sunk by a German U-boat. Were any of the children of James McNamara living in Clare at the time of his death on 10 October 1918?

James McNamara (≈1823 - 1918) and Catherine Staunton (≈1824 - 1894) were the parents of nine children:

1.0 Ellen McNamara, no location, baptized as "MacNamara" on ? 1843, mother reported as "E. Stanton"; no sponsors listed/legible.

2.0 Kate McNamara, Derymore, baptized on 11 October 1845, mother reported as "Kate Stunton"; sponsor Mary Callaghan.

3.0 John McNamara, Derymore, baptized on 29 June 1849, mother reported as "Kate Stundon"; sponsor Bid Connel. Died in infancy.

4.0 John McNamara, Derrymore, baptized on 22 July 1851, mother reported as "Catherine Stundon"; sponsor Eliza Cahill.

The baptisms changed to O'Callaghan Mills Catholic Parish records in 1855. Cappalaheen and Cloonloum are in Clonlea civil parish, and are very close to Derrymore East in Tulla Parish.

5.0 James McNamara, Capalaheen, baptized on 7 May 1855, mother reported as "Catherine Stanton"; sponsors James Connell, Bridget Hasset.

6.0 Elizabeth McNamara, Clonlum, baptized on 24 December 1858, mother reported as "Catherine Standon"; sponsor Anne Standon.

7.0 Anne McNamara, Clonloum, baptized on 21 June 1861, mother reported as "Kate Stundons"; sponsors Mick Corbet, Anne Standon.

8.0 Michael McNamara, Clonloun, baptized on 18 January 1865, mother reported as "Catherine Staunton"; sponsors Michael Staunton, Honorah Egan.

9.0 Mary McNamara, Clonlum, baptized on 23 August 1866, mother reported as "Catherine Stanton"; sponsors Michl. Callighan, Mary Moloney.


Note 1, "marriage by special license": thought this might be related to John McNamara and Catherine McNamara possibly being related, McNamara cousins, but this was unlikely to have been the case. Family Search has an article "Marriage Allegations, Bonds and Licences in England and Wales", with a list of reasons for a special license, although this term was not used. Including #2, "The parties differed greatly in age, such as a widow marrying a much younger man or an old man marrying a young woman".

John McNamara was born in 1825 and Catherine McNamara was born sometime in the early 1840's, so this explanation would apply for their marriage in 1867.
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/M ... _and_Wales

EDIT: reflect Sheila's discovery of death record of John McNamara (8.0) in NY and likely Tulla death record for James McNamara (6.0). Change parents of Catherine McNamara who married the widower John McNamara of Rosslara. See next two postings.
Last edited by Jimbo on Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sduddy
Posts: 1159
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:28 pm

Hi Jimbo

You have done an amazing amount of work. I’ve just given it a first read.

I did notice that Julia’s age at death might be 35 (rather than 55).

Jimbo, that newspaper report on the death of Michael McNamara from Roslara was a good find.
Yes, there’s a Mich’l McNamara in Roslara in Tithes, but no McNamaras in Griffiths, but clearly they were there - in some capacity - as you say.
There’s a headstone for the Rosslara McNamaras in Tulla graveyard, which seems to be quite new (1995), but there’s an older one in Feakle graveyard for Patrick and Norah (1933 and 1962). So maybe those Roslara McNamaras originally came from Feakle.

The Derrymore McNamara’s I took a special interest in when we were still hoping to find the family of the Civil War Soldier – I suppose I thought at the time that Andrew McNamara, who was living there in 1901, had always lived there. I remember studying the Rate Book and finding no co-relation between it and the Griffith’s plots. Around that time, I put together some notes on various McNamara families who lived in Derrymore East, for a while, at least. (Derrymore East, by the way, is also called Derrymore Carmody). The following are just notes – they are not woven into any kind of narrative. Also you will see that I included some stuff, which properly belongs to Rosslara, and which you have included above. And you will see that I omitted James McNamara and Catherine Staunton (but I will now add the data you’ve provided). The only thing new I've added is the record of John McNamara's death* - it wasn't available at the time.

McNamaras in Derrymore East (Derrymore Carmody):

1873: Marriage of Thomas Cahill, Caherhurley, son of James Cahill, Farmer, to Mary McNamara, Derrymore Carmody, daughter of James McNamara, Farmer, in ?? chapel; witnesses: Pat Frawley, Mary McNamara.

Tulla baptisms 1862-1880:
15 Apr 1874: Mary of Thomas Cahill and Mary McNamara, Derrymore Carmody; sponsors: James Cahill, Ellen McNamara.
23 Feb. 1876: James of same couple, same address; sponsors: Patrick Meehan, Maggie Clune.

This family emigrated to New York in 1877.
Immigration record shows Thomas Cahill, aged 33, Mary aged 27, Mary aged 4 and James aged 2, aboard SS Spain, which arrived at New York on 3 Dec 1877: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVSK-CG1K

U.S. Census 1880: Thomas Cahill, aged 32, b. Ireland, and wife Mary aged 28, b. Ireland, and Maria aged 6, b Ireland, James aged 4, b. Ireland, Margaret aged 1 b. New York, and Bridget Cahill, sister-in-law, aged 19, b. Ireland: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MZ6G-RFB
West 52 Street, New York.

Familysearch.org: Marriage on 15 Nov 1896 in Manhattan New York, of James Cahill born 1875 Ireland; parents: Thomas Cahill, Mary McNamara. And Martha Campbell (mother of bride?).

U.S. Census 1900: Thomas Cahill aged 51, and Mary aged 48, Annie aged 17 born in New York, John G. Cahill aged 7 born in New York. Mary is the mother of 9 children, of whom 5 are living. West 16 Street.

Familysearch.org: Death on 6 Sep 1907 in Manhattan, New York, of James Cahill, b. 1877 in Ireland; parents: Thomas Cahill, Mary McNamara; residence: 633 Columbus Ave.

Death of Thomas Cahill, in Manhattan, New York City, on 9 Sep 1907, born in Ireland 1847; parents: James [Cahill], Mary: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2W9H-MJZ

Is this Mary in 1920, a widow living in Manhattan, aged 70?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MJTB-9RS

-------------------------------------
Tulla Baptisms 1819 – 1846:
?? Mar 1839: James of James McNamara and Mary Fitzgerald, Derymore; sponsors: John Dyre, Kity Mac.
?? Jun 1840: James of James McNmaara and Mary Fitzgerald, Tulla; sponsor: Bid Hogan.
?? Nov 1845: Margaret of James McNamara and Mary Fitzgerald, Deryan(?); sponsor: Peg Mac

Tulla Baptisms 1846-1862:
25 Sep 1853: Bridget (MacNamara) of James MacNamara and Mary Fitzgerald, Derrymore; sponsors: John McNamara, Catherine Lyons.
16 Jun 1856: Ellen McNamara of James McNamara and Mary Fitzgerald, Deryconnell; sponsors: Pat Kirby, Margaret Fitzgerald.
13 Mar 1848: Mary of James McNamara and Mary Fitzgerald, (no address); sponsor: Peg Mack.
------------------------------------

23 Aug 1840: Pat of Roger McNamara and Mary Mulqueeny, Derymore; sponsors: James McNamara.
16 Aug 1845: Kate of Rody McNamara and Mary Mulconry, Dermore; sponsor: Kate Mack.
-------------------------------------
Marriages: 1862-1881: 17 Mar 1867: John McNamara, Roslara, to Kate McNamara, Derrymore Carmody; witnesses: Pat Burke, Margaret Fitzgerald (marriage by special licence).
G.R.O.: John McNamara, widower, Rosalara, Tulla, son of Michael McNamara, Farmer, to Catherine McNamara, Derrymore Carmody, Tulla, d. of James McNamara, Farmer; witnesses: Patrick Bourke, Margaret Fitzgerald.

Baptisms: 9 Feb 1868: James of John Mack and Catherine Mack, Roslara; sponsors: Pat Meehan, Anne Mack (a James McNamara died age 0 in 1869)
4 Apr 1869: Anne of same couple (McNamara), Roslara; sponsors: Martin Molony, Bridget McNamara.
8 Oct 1870: John of same couple (McNamara), Rosslara; sponsors: Mary McNamara.
18 Dec 1872: Ellen of the same couple, Roslara; sponsors: Mat Mack, Ellen Mack.
10 Sep 1876: Patrick of same couple (MacNamara(; sponsors: Matthew McNamara, Mary McNamara.
20 Jun 1878: Peter of same couple, Rosslara; sponsors: James Mack, Mary Collou.
1882: Thadeus McNamara, Rosslara, to John McNamara and Catherine McNamara.

Ireland Reaching Out: “Timothy McNamara was aged 21 when he arrived into Ellis Island on board the Germanic from Queenstown on 11th April 1902. Timothy was planning on staying with his brother, Peter McNamara at 60 Beach Street, New York. Timothy described himself as a farmer and had $20.00 with him. Timothy was the son of John and Catherine McNamara. They lived in Rosslara and were farmers. His brother, Peter was listed in the 1900 U.S. Census as a farm worker living in the Bronx area of New York. It is quite possible that Timothy was going to join him with the intention of working in the same place. There is no further information for Timothy McNamara after his arrival in New York.”: https://irelandxo.com/resources/exhibit ... y-mcnamara

1901: Catherine aged 56, Patt aged 24, and Annie aged 16. (Rosslara, Ballinahinch)

1911: Pat aged 34, and wife, Nora, and daughter Bridget aged 1. Plus Kate aged 70.
1909: Marriage of Patrick McNamara, Roslara, son of John McNamara, Farmer, to Honora Carmody, Kilbane, daughter of Michael Carmody, Farmer, in Kilbane chapel; witnesses: John Gunning, Nora McMahon.

Annie emigrated on 14 Sep 190?, aged 20, going to sister Ellen McNamara, 19, East 67 Street, New York.

Familysearch.org: Death of Ellen McNamara, b. 1874, Ireland, on 1 May 1948, in Manhattan, New York City; parents: John McNamara, Catherine McNamara: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WY4-5M5

Familysearch.org: Death of John McNamara, b. 1871 Ireland on 9 Sep 1894, aged 23, single; address: 22 Beach St.; 2 years in U.S.; parents: John McNamara, Kate McNamara: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2W6N-LYM

US census 1930: Ellen living in East 68 Street, aged 57: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X422-1KQ

Familysearch.org: Marriage of Anna McNamara, birth 1887, Ireland, on 21 Jan 1912, to Francis O’Connor; parents: John McNamara, Cath. McNamara.

3 Apr 1916: Death of Kate McNamara, Rosslara, widow, aged 72: informant: Patrick McNamara, son of deceased, Rosslara.

Familysearch: Death of Peter McNamara, born 27 Jun 1878, Clare, Ireland; parents: John McNamara. Other (Informant): Francis McNamara. Death on 21 Mar 1958, in Chicago, Cook, Illinois; address 3546 N Oconto Avenue. Fireman, married, aged 79: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVRN-MY97
-------------------------------------------------

There is also a Patrick McNamara who was living in Derrymore in the 1860s. He is the father of John Mack (below). He was married to Mary McMahon, and the Tulla baptisms show three baptisms for this couple:
23.06.1863: Mary of Patrick McNamara and Mary McMahon, Derrymore Carmody; sponsors: James McNamara, Mary Fitzgerald.
??.11.1865: John of Pat McNamara and Mary McMahon, Derryanca(?)y; sponsors: Patrick McNamara, Catherine McGrath.
25.04.1868: Anne of Pat McNamara and Mary McMahon, Derrymore Carmody; sponsors: Mat McInerny, Mary McNamara.

Note: John b. 1865 was registered as John Mack, in 1865 (Kilkishen registration district, Tulla Union). The occupation of his father, Patt Mack, Derramore, is Farmer. His sister, Anne, was registered as Anne McNamara in 1868. This time the occupation of Pat is Labourer.

Death 12.10.1878: Mary McNamara, Derramore, aged 40, widow of Labourer; informant: Mary McNamara, present at death, Derramore.
*Death 10 May 1876: Pat McNamara, Derramore, married, aged 42, Farmer; informant: Mary McNamara, Derramore.

Familysearch.org: Death of John McNamara, born 1868, Ireland; parents: Patrick McNamara, Mary McMahon. On 7 Oct 1919, in Manhattan, New York City: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WZZ-RFJ. Aged 51, married, address: 509 W 42 St., Manhattan, in U.S. and New York City 32 years.

Sheila

Jimbo
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:43 am

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:52 am

Hi Sheila,

Thank you very much for sharing your old research notes on the McNamara's of Rosslara and Derrymore Carmody.

Very pleased that you were able to identify John McNamara (who died in NY on 8 September 1894) as well as the likely death record for James McNamara, born in February 1868, who died in 1869 at the age of zero. Now of the 13 children of John McNamara of Rosslara, all those who died prior to the 1922 obituary of Michael McNamara of Brooklyn have been identified.

The death records of New York are a useful resource to trace parents back to Ireland, but with John McNamara being such a common name, it can lead to incorrect conclusions. It appears that when the mother's maiden in unknown, their married name was often used. So, there are quite a few death records in New York with a John McNamara as the father, and Catherine McNamara as the mother. Plus, in the O'Callaghan Mills baptism records, and probably also in other parishes, there was another John McNamara married to a Catherine McNamara who were the parents of several children.

As an example, one that initially led me to an incorrect conclusion, a Mrs. Margaret McNamara Fennell, born in Ireland on 10 August 1864, died in the Bronx on 22 November 1935. Her father was reported as John McNamara and mother as Catherine McNamara. A very good match to the Margaret McNamara baptized on 10 June 1863 in Roslara, Clare. However, Margaret McNamara married Patrick Fennell in 1886 (per 1900 census). The 1922 obituary for Michael McNamara lists only his sister, Mrs. Anna O'Connor, as being married.

The Michael McNamara obituary of 1922 was key. I only discovered this because I knew the McNamara's were from Roslara. It's much easier to trace an Irish family from Ireland to America, than the other way around.

The information you provided on Mary McNamara of Derrymore Carmody, daughter of James McNamara, who married Thomas Cahill, of Cahirhurley, in 1873, was at first very confusing. James McNamara and Catherine Staunton had a daughter named Mary in 1866, who most certainly did not get married in 1873.

Sheila, it would have been much easier to follow your notes under "McNamara's in Derrymore East" if the baptism records of James McNamara and Mary Fitzgerald, who had a daughter Mary in 1848, were mentioned first. However, perhaps this was done on purpose. It was my initial confusion on the parents of the Mary McNamara who married Thomas Cahill, which led me to conclude that I had incorrectly identified the parents of the Catherine McNamara who married John McNamara in 1867. A very clever test on your part, while not pointing out my error explicitly, provided enough evidence for me and any other forum reader to come to this conclusion.

When Catherine McNamara married John McNamara in 1867, the civil marriage record stated her residence as Derrymore Carmody, daughter of James McNamara. The Catherine McNamara, who was born in 1845 to James McNamara and Catherine Staunton, had moved with her family to O'Callaghan Mills parish by 1855 and would have stated that she was from Clonloum townland. And she would have married in O'Callaghan Mills parish and not Tulla parish. The Catherine McNamara who married John McNamara in 1867 must be the daughter of James McNamara and Mary Fitzgerald of Derrymore Carmody. The marriage witness Margaret Fitzgerald was a relative on her mother's side. Catherine McNamara was born in either 1841 or 1843 which has missing Tulla baptism pages. It was her father, James McNamara, in Plot 14 of Derrymore East in Griffith Valuation.

I've changed the section of my prior posting "James McNamara of Derrymore East (Tulla), later Cloonloum More (Clonlea)" to "James McNamara (≈1823 - 1918) of Cloonloum More (Clonlea)" and have made several other edits.

The death records of James McNamara of Derrymore East and his wife Mary Fitzgerald McNamara might reveal further evidence if the informant was either their presumed daughter Catherine McNamara or son-in-law John McNamara of Rosslara.

The civil Irish death records cannot be searched by townland, only by county, so I've worked out a new method to determine an approximate year when an Irish farmer died. Every Irish farmer had a dog which required a dog license. The dog license records can be searched by townland.

Ancestry tip: the "Ireland, Dog License Registrations, 1810-1926" do not show up when choosing "Ireland" as the collection. You must, for some unknown reason, select "UK and Ireland" as the collection (or else "all collections"). "Ireland Petty Sessions" shows up in both the "Ireland" and "UK and Ireland" collections.

As a test case, I chose John McNamara of Rosslara who died on 1 January 1901, and his farm was taken over by his son, Patrick McNamara. So on 29 March 1871, John McNamara of Rosslara paid for a license for a black & tan, male, harrier breed. More dogs through the 1880's and 1890's. The last registration by John McNamara of Roslara was on 27 March 1899 for a black, male, cur dog. Patrick McNamara, of Rosslara, pays for his first dog license on 31 March 1900 for a red, sheep dog (not sure what Patrick did with his father's cur dog). The fact that John McNamara no longer obtained a dog license in 1900 was clear evidence of his death, which was indeed the case.

So instead of searching for James McNamara of Derrymore Carmody in the death records with only the knowledge that he died after 1873 (when his daughter Mary married), I first viewed the dog license register. James McNamara, of "Derrymore Cary", first appears in the 29 March 1866 register, for a yellow, male, terrier. His last purchase of a dog license was on the 29 March 1874 register, for a black & white, female, terrier. With this information, you search the civil records in a close range around 1875. And Bingo!

James McNamara, married, farmer, 66 years, of Roslara, "died from natural causes", on 8 November 1876; informant John Frost, county Clare coroner. Roslara is very close to Derrymore Carmody, was this just a simple mistake by the coroner? Or perhaps had an unwell James McNamara moved in with his daughter Catherine McNamara, the husband of John McNamara of Roslara?

Going back to the dog register, a Mary McNamara, of Derrymore, had her first dog license purchase on 20 March 1878. Was this Mary Fitzgerald, the widow of James McNamara of Derrymore? No, the license was for a black, male, terrier. This was the same exact dog as the 31 March 1877 license purchase by Patt McNamara of Derrymore. As Sheila noted, Patrick McNamara of Derrymore died on 10 May 1876. Which is odd, given that Patrick purchased a license on 31 March 1877. However, looking back at the register, the page states "1876 + 1877" — the record of 31 March was indexed incorrectly as 1877. His widow, Mary McMahon McNamara, or perhaps their daughter Mary McNamara, appears on the register that states "1877 + 1878".

Unfortunately, Mary Fitzgerald McNamara, the widow of James McNamara, of Derrymore (later Roslara?), did not have a dog. I searched for her death record the old fashioned way, unsuccessfully. The informant on her death record will hopefully be her daughter Catherine McNamara or son-in-law John McNamara of Rosslara.

It would be nice if someday we were able to query the Irish civil records by townland similar to the Irish dog licenses.

Sheila, I've reworked much of the notes you provided on the McNamara's of Derrymore East, along with my theory on daughter Catherine McNamara, into a format that if I came back to 6 months I could easily understand. Will probably need to make further edits later. Thanks again for sharing your research notes.


James McNamara (≈1810 - 1876) of Derrymore East (Derrymore Carmody)

There were no McNamara's reported in Derrymore, Tulla in the Tithe Applotment books dated February 1827.

In 1855 Griffith Valuation, a James McNamara was reported in Plot 14a in Derrymore East, Tulla Parish; house, offices, and land; about 28 acres; valuation £5.

Derrymore East is included in the 1921 Rate Book under Kyle, but I struggled to match (acre size etc) any of the GV plots with the same plot numbers listed in the 1921 rate book. So not certain who took over Derrymore East GV plot 14.

James McNamara (≈1810 - 1876) and Mary Fitzgerald (died after 1876) were the parents of six and most likely seven children. James McNamara, of Roslara (not Derrymore? see above discussion), farmer, married, 66 years, "died from natural causes" on 8 November 1876; informant John Frost, coroner, County Clare. Mary McNamara died after 1876, but her death record is currently unknown.

1.0 James McNamara, Derymore, baptized on ?? March 1839; sponsors: John Dyre, Kity Mac. Died in infancy.

2.0 James McNamara, Tulla, baptized on ?? June 1840; sponsor: Bid Hogan.

3.0 Catherine McNamara, unknown baptism. Most likely in missing Tulla baptism pages for the period May through July 1841, or January through March 1843. In the 1911 census, Catherine McNamara was reported to be 70 years old, or born about 1841. The 1901 census and her 1916 death record reflect a birth year of 1844/1845.

Catherine McNamara, of Derrymore Carmody, daughter of James McNamara, married John McNamara, widower, farmer, of Roslara, son of Michael McNamara, on 17 March 1867, at Tulla chapel by the Rev. James Bowles; marriage witnesses Patrick Bourke, Margaret Fitzgerald. The Catholic marriage register stated "married by special license", perhaps due to their 20 year age difference. John McNamara and Catherine McNamara had eight children together, see McNamara of Rosslara family tree in my last posting. In addition, Saint Catherine would have raised five step-children, who ranged in ages two through eight years when she married in 1867.

4.0 Margaret McNamara, Deryan(?), baptized on ?? November 1845; sponsor: Peg Mac.

5.0 Mary McNamara, no location, baptized on 13 March 1848 ; sponsor: Peg Mack. Mary McNamara, of Derrymore Carmody, daughter of James McNamara, farmer, married Thomas Cahill, of Caherhurley, son of James Cahill, farmer, on 12 February 1873 at Tulla chapel; witnesses: Pat Frawley, Mary McNamara. Thomas Cahill died in Manhattan, New York City, on 9 September 1907, born in Ireland 1847; parents: James [Cahill], Mary.
............ 5.1 Mary Cahill Derrymore Carmody, baptized on 15 April 1874; sponsors James Cahill, Ellen McNamara (age 6 in 1880, Manhattan).
............ 5.2 James Cahill Derrymore Carmody, baptized on 23 February 1876; sponsors Patrick Meehan, Maggie Clune (age 4 in 1880, Manhattan). James Cahill married Martha Campbell on 15 Nov 1896 in Manhattan New York. Martha Cahill, age 28, married, daughter of Patrick Cahill and Ellen Healey, died in NY on 17 March 1907. James Cahill died in Manhattan on 6 September 1907; residence: 633 Columbus Ave (see note 1 below). In 1910, their children were living with their grandmother.
......................... 5.2.1 Loretta Cahill (age 13 in 1910 census; living with Ellen Campbell, grandmother)
......................... 5.2.2 Helen Cahill (age 11 in 1910 census; living with Ellen Campbell, grandmother)
......................... 5.2.3 Marion Cahill (age 3 in 1905 census)
......................... 5.2.4 Hilder Cahill (age 11 in 1910 census; living with Ellen Campbell, grandmother)

Thomas Cahill (aged 33), Mary (aged 27), Mary (aged 4) and James (aged 2), aboard SS Spain, which arrived at New York on 3 Dec 1877.

............ 5.3 Margaret Cahill (age 1 in 1880, Manhattan)
............ 5.4 Annie Cahill (age 17 in 1900, Manhattan)
............ 5.5 Unknown Cahill (parents of 9 children in 1900; 5 living)
............ 5.6 Unknown Cahill
............ 5.7 Unknown Cahill
............ 5.8 Unknown Cahill
............ 5.9 Mary Cahill (age 7 in 1900, Manhattan)

6.0 Bridget McNamara, Derrymore, baptized on 25 September 1853; sponsors: John McNamara, Catherine Lyons.

7.0 Ellen McNamara, Deryconnell, baptized on 16 June 1856; sponsors: Pat Kirby, Margaret Fitzgerald.


Note 1: 633 Columbus Avenue in Manhattan where James Cahill was living when he died in 1907 was the address of a very large tenement house. Several of the children of John Meehan and Anne McNamara of Derryulk lived there. Honora Meehan Carroll lived at 633 Columbus Avenue from at least 1920 through to 1940. See McNamara of Derryulk family tree on page 20.

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:11 pm

H Jimbo

I don't do tricks or traps -this stuff is difficult enough as it is! I hadn't given any thought to who "Saint" Catherine's father and mother might be - you are just way ahead of me with the Derrymore Macks.

But we both have forgotten the other family that qualifies for the Derrymore list, i.e. the family of Patrick McNamara, whose marriage to Delia Mealy you found about 3 years ago. Here are some notes on that family:

07 Feb. 1878: Marriage of Thomas McNamara, Farm Labourer, Clonloum, son of Michael McNamara, deceased, Farmer, to Ellen Hogan, Derrymore Carmody, daughter of Thomas Hogan, deceased. In Tulla chapel; witnesses: James O’Brien, Bridget O’Shea: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 060658.pdf
(This Michael might be the father of Thomas: 18 Nov 1875: Death of Michael McNamara, Derrymore, aged 66, married, Herd; informant Margaret McNamara, Derrymore.)

1901: Thomas McNamara, aged 50, Ellen, aged 50, Patrick aged 16, Michael aged 13, Eleanor, aged 15.
1911: Thomas McNamara, aged 67, Ellen aged 68, Patrick aged 26, Helena aged 20; 33 years married; 6 children born, 4 alive.

Five of the six children of Thomas McNamara and Ellen Hogan:

1. Mary, b. 1879:
31 May 1879: Baptism of Mary Mack [McNamara] of Thomas Mack [McNamara] and Ellen Hogan, Derrymore Carmody; sponsor: Judith NcInerney.
11 Nov 1905: Marriage of Martin Casey, Tulla, Labourer, son of Thomas Casey, Labourer, to Mary McNamara, Derrymore Carmody, daugher of Thomas McNamara, Labourer, in Tulla chapel; witnesses: Patrick Hogan, Winifred Canny: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 705871.pdf
23 Dec 1906: Birth of Stephen Casey to Martin Casey, Shandangan, and Mary McNamara. (labourer).
Note on Martin Casey: 03 Oct 1871 Birth of Martin Casey to Thomas Casey and Johanna Dillon, Crusheen (reg. in Ennis). These Caseys must have moved to Kilkishen: 08 May 1877: Birth of Thomas Casey to Thomas Casey and Johanna Dillon, Killanenagh [Kilkishen reg. district, Tulla Union].

2. Margaret b. 1882:
15 Nov 1882: Birth of Margaret of Thomas McNamara and Ellen Hogan, Lackyle [Clonlea parish]
01 Apr 1884: Death of Margaret McNamara aged 16 months, child of a labourer; informant: Ellen McNamara, Lakyle.

3. Patrick b. 1885:
12 Jan 1885: Birth of Patrick McNamara of Thomas McNamara, Lackyle, and Ellen Hogan. Went to Lowell Massachussetts and married Delia Meally from Kilmaley – see topic: http://www.ourlibrary.ca/phpbb2/viewtop ... f=1&t=2914

4. Michael b. 1887:
24 Aug 1887: Birth of Michael to Thomas McNamara and Ellen Hogan, Derrymore. Informant: Johanna McInerney. Living at home in 1901 (aged 13), but not at home in 1911. No further records found.

5. Ellen b. 1890:
19 Aug 1890: Birth of Ellen McNamara to Thomas McNamara and Ellen Hogan, Derrymore.
4 Feb 1931: Marriage of Thomas O’Loughlin, Derrymore, Labourer, son of William O’Loughlin, Labourer, to Lena McNamara, Derrymore, daughter of Thomas McNamara; witnesses: Michael McInerney, Mary Casey: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 262966.pdf

Ellen McNamara, sen. died 12 Jun 1911, in Derrymore, aged 54, married, wife of a labourer; informant: Helena McNamara, daughter, Derrymore.
Thomas McNamara, died 16 May 1930, Derrymore, aged 75, widower, Labourer; informant: Lena McNamara, daughter, Derrymore.

Jimbo, I think you must be the only person in the world doing Genealogy by dog licence!

Sheila

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:31 am

Hi Jimbo

I've been looking through issues of the Clare Journal between 1850 and 1872 for items that might interest me, and not noticing very many reports of McNamaras from Tulla, I noted this one: Thur 17 Mar 1864: Deaths. In San Francisco, Mrs. Margaret, wife of the late James McNamara, a native of the county Clare, Parish of Tulla, Ireland, aged 41 years.
It has nothing to do with any family we have looked at hitherto, but might sometime.

Sheila

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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:14 pm

Hi Jimbo

I was reading over your account of James McNamara and his wife Catherine Stanton, who lived in Derrymore in Tulla parish, until about 1852, and then in Cloonloum in Clonlea parish, where five of their nine children were baptised. I was reminded of this report on evictions in Clonlown (which I think must be Cloonloum). I was wondering if it explained the movement of the McNamaras from Derrymore to Cloonloum – maybe there was a vacancy for a new tenant in Cloonloum:

Clare Journal, Thur 6 Jun 1850: page 1:
Tulla Union: Evictions. The Rev. Mr. Quade, P.P., brought before the Board the case of 272 individuals who had been recently evicted at Clonlown on Mr. O’Callaghan’s property. The greater number of their houses were pulled down, and the poor people had no place of shelter, save the miserable huts they were able to erect by the ditch sides. He wished the Board to make some provision of those poor people – as they were in danger of perishing.
The relieving officer for the district having been called before the Board and questioned on the subject, stated that 114 of this number were in receipt of relief.
Mr. R. A. Studdert observed that all these poor people were entitled to one months relief outside.
Mr. Quade wished to know what they were to do for lodging.
Mr O’Brien, P.L.I., said that he went to some of the districts when those evictions had taken place, and he found on inquiry from the paupers that they preferred to get relief outside and endeavour to make out lodgings for themselves as best they could, rather than go into the Workhouse.
Rev. Mr. Quade did not doubt but such was the case – yet, in mercy to the poor people, whatever might be their own opinion, he though it would be very advisable, if possible, to give them Workhouse accommodation.
This being impracticable, however, in the present state of the Union, the Relieving officer was directed to give all those evicted persons relief for a month. We shall take occasion to refer to those evictions in our next.
Clare Journal, Mon 10 Jun 1850:
Evictions at Clonlown. We have made inquiries relative to those evictions, which were brought before Tulla Board of Guardians at the last meeting by the Rev. Mr. Quade, P.P., and our reporter subsequently visited the locality, on which he observed a number of cabins leveled; but from the information which he has received relative to the character and circumstances of those unfortunate people, we believe the landlord had really no alternative, if he wished to retain any command over his property or establish peace and quietness in the district, but to have the parties in question ejected. There are very large arrears upon this property, incurred during the lifetime of the previous proprietor.
Sheila

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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:00 am

Hi Jimbo

Moving now from the James McNamara, who was married to Catherine Staunton, to the James McNamara who was married to Mary Fitzgerald, this newspaper report explains why James died in Roslara rather than in Derrymore:
Clare Freeman, Sat 11 Nov 1876:
Sudden Death – a very awful proof of the uncertainty of life was witnessed at Roslara near Tulla on the morning of 8th inst. A man named James McNamara, who had come from a neighbourhood to attend a funeral, and while engaged in conversation, rose to light his pipe, and on resuming his seat died without a struggle. The deceased was about 60 years of age, and up to the moment of death had enjoyed excellent health. Correspondent.
Sheila

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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:02 am

Dog License revenue stamp, two shillings.jpg
Dog License revenue stamp, two shillings.jpg (55.24 KiB) Viewed 208 times

Hi Sheila,

More show and tell from my stamp collection; above is a two shilling revenue stamp depicting an Irish wolf hound. This stamp would have been attached to a dog license document when the owner paid their license in March of every year. The below link, from the website of a revenue stamp specialist, has an example of an actual dog license document which includes the same information as the dog license register. Forward one page and the back of the dog license has a long description for "signs of madness" in dogs as well as other regulations. The website states a value of £25. But Sheila before you search the attic for any records, I expect an expired dog license would have made excellent kindling for the fire. Still you might want to keep an eye out for these dog licenses at any Saturday morning garage sales this weekend.

http://www.ibredguy.co.uk/main.php?g2_itemId=77174

The newspaper article for James McNamara of Derrymore was a very good find, thanks very much. Sheila, you've left some very low hanging fruit for me as far as what funeral at Roslara he might have been attending in 1876. Of course, James McNamara of Derrymore Carmody on the 8th of November was attending the funeral of his granddaughter, Anna McNamara, who died in Roslara on the 7th of November. This removes any doubt, if there was every any, that this James McNamara (≈1810 - 1876) was the father of Catherine McNamara of Derrymore Carmody who married John McNamara of Roslara.

James McNamara went to Roslara to "attend a funeral" per the Clare Freeman article. What was he actually attending? When a priest or influential person died in Ireland in the 19th century, a long funeral announcement might mention a requiem mass at the church. And I am sure that this would typically be the case for everyone today. But in 19th century Ireland, for the typical person, such as seven year old Anna McNamara, would the deceased be brought directly from the McNamara home by a procession of family members and neighbors to the cemetery where the priest would say the final prayers? Would there have been a funeral mass at their local church or chapel?

The civil death record for James McNamara, "of Roslara", but actually from Derrymore Carmody, stated that he was married, but I could not find the death record for his widow, Mary Fitzgerald McNamara. In November 1877, one year after the death of James McNamara, their daughter Mary McNamara Cahill left for New York with her husband and two children.

I suspect that the two youngest daughters of James McNamara and Mary Fitzgerald, Bridget born in 1853, and Ellen in 1856, did not marry in Ireland but had left earlier for America. Perhaps it was their wages that paid for passage of the Cahill family to New York. It is quite shocking to look at the decline in Irish marriages, using Tulla Parish as a case study since their records are most complete. For Tulla Parish, from 1819 to 1846 there were an average of 36 marriages per year; from 1846 to 1861 down to 26 marriages per year; and from 1861 to 1881, only 18 marriages per year. A 50% decline from the first to the last marriage register. The McNamara clan in Tulla, had a more precipitous 2/3 decline in average number of McNamara women marrying per year.

Bridget McNamara (born 1853) and Ellen McNamara (born 1856) would probably have left for America when they were about 18 to 20 years old. So would be reported in the 1880 USA census, where they probably fudged their age downwards by a few years. Probably went to New York City, where the Cahill family went in 1877. And probably worked as domestic servants. I reckon that Ellen McNamara has a good chance to be the 21 year old (born about 1859) domestic servant living with the family of German born Jacob Moses Stettheimer (1809 - 1890) at 25 East 60th street in Manhattan. A very nice address between Madison Avenue and Fifth Avenue, one block from Central Park. Could the other Irish domestic servant, Lizzie Fitzgerald, also age 21, be a first cousin? I suspect that Mary Fitzgerald McNamara was from O'Callaghan Mills parish as this surname was far more common than in Tulla parish. If "Lizzie" was actually a "Bridget", then my cousin theory would be more probable.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MZXS-LKR

The family of Jacob Stettheimer was multi-generational and included four young grandchildren that were reported in the 1880 census as three nieces and one nephew. I initially thought that this naming practice, common in the Irish census reports as frequently mentioned by Paddy Waldron, was also a Jewish tradition? But then I realized that it was the census enumerator, by the name of Thomas Brady, that reported the grandchildren as nephews and nieces, a solely Irish tradition he brought to America.

Sheila, thanks also for the Clare Journal articles from 1850 describing the evictions from Cloonloum townland. I'm still holding on to my theory that the family of James McNamara and Catherine Staunton were returning to Cloonloum in the 1850's, and that the John McNamara recorded in the 1827 Tithe applotment books was the father of James McNamara. When further death records for 1864 to 1871 become available on-line, they might provide new evidence for this theory.

In the O'Callaghan Mills parish records, a John McNamara and Mary Hayes of "Clonlume", baptized a son named Michael in 1836; witnesses Thomas McNamara and Ellen Collins. This child could be the tail end of their family, and possibly they were also the parents of James McNamara (≈1823 - 1918) who married Catherine Staunton (≈1824 - 1894).

And thank you for providing the family tree of Thomas McNamara (from Cloonloum when married) and Ellen Hogan of Derrymore in such a clear format. I had forgotten that it was their son Patrick McNamara who went to Lowell, Massachusetts and married into the O'Meally family.

I agree that Michael McNamara, the herdsman from Derrymore, who died on 18 November 1875, has a good chance to be the father of Thomas McNamara (married to Ellen Hogan). This Michael McNamara, of Derrymore, paid for his last dog license on 31 March 1874 for two male, black & white, sheep dogs — so definitely a herdsman. I had a quick look for the civil death record for his wife, presumably the informant Margaret McNamara, but was unsuccessful. Perhaps Margaret McNamara went to live with another one of her children?

There was a Mary (possibly Marg?) McNamara, widow of a farmer, 82 years old, of Knockatooreen townland who died in 1894. Knockatooreen is adjacent to Derrymore East and thus also close to Cloonloum townland. The informant was her son, John McNamara, who was living in House 1 in Knockatooreen townland in the 1901 census as a 51 year old; and in 1911 census as a 73 year old. His wife Ellen McNamara, age 50 in 1901, only aged 2 years in the same 10 year period. John McNamara, of Knockatoreen, son of Thomas McNamara, had married Ellen O'Brien, daughter of Pat O'Brien, of Coolgoree townland on 18 February 1890. There was a Thomas McNamara in Knockatooreen townland in Clonlea Parish in 1855 Griffith Valuation, about 21 acres, and £9 valuation.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... n/1086279/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... en/368787/

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:08 am

Hi Jimbo

You just beat me to it with the information that it was Anne McNamara's funeral James McNamara was attending! It was going to be my reply to you today. I doubt if there was a Mass for Anne. I hesitate to make a pronouncement on it since my pronouncements are so often all wrong, but I can say that Masses for very young children were considered to be quite unnecessary until about the 1970s. Masses were understood to be a plea for sins to be forgiven and the soul of the dead person to go to heaven; young children did not have any sins and were going directly to heaven and did not need a Mass. From the 1970s forward, I think the priest and the people felt that a Mass would be an acknowledgement of the sorrowful occasion and would be a comfort to the parents.
Anne's body would have been laid out in McNamara's house, and neighbours and relatives would have assembled there and some of them would have followed the funeral to the graveyard.
I will re-read the rest of your interesting posting and see if there's anything further I can add.

Sheila

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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:21 am

Hi Sheila,

Thank you for your explanation regarding the funeral for the child Anna McNamara in 1876. I recall the discussion on whether or not women attended funerals or not in Ireland (the Quinlivan thread), and I realized early on in the discussion that in Ireland, especially in the 19th century, a "funeral" was the funeral procession and burial at the cemetery, which may or may not have included a "requiem Mass" at a church. James McNamara of Roslara, a 66 year old farmer, would have had a funeral just a few days after Anne McNamara. Would there have been a requiem Mass at his church in 1876 do you think? What if James McNamara had been a poor laborer, would a Mass have been said at his funeral or would it be more likely to be straight to the cemetery? And we've agreed that women did not go to the cemetery in the 19th century, but were they welcome to attend the funeral Mass at the church?

There is much written on-line about Irish wakes, but not so much about Irish funeral practices. The American Civil War pension records provide a few clues as the American government reimbursed for "all the expenses of the last sickness and burial" of widows of Civil War veterans, including those living in Ireland. Sheila, you mentioned that "Anne's body would have been laid out in McNamara's house" and I've also read that the women family members were responsible for washing and laying out of the body. The Civil War pension records (1860's through 1930's or so) would reflect changing Irish customs over time. By 1927, as least for a Civil War widow pensioner living in Kilrush, the family paid Mollie Honan of Kilrush the sum of £1 for "washing and laying out of deceased". The US government reimbursed a total of just over £10, including these other expenses paid to the following in Kilrush: Undertaker, Patrick Joseph Clancy, £7, 10 shillings; Livery (transportation to cemetery), Patrick Blunny, 10 shillings; Cemetery (to dig the grave?), Thomas McInerney, 7 shillings, 6 pence; "Habit + Hose", John Lillis, 1 pound 6 shillings 2 pence.

Sheila, I am now catching up on some of your earlier comments.

With regards to Julia McNamara Hurst, and her missing baptism record about 1860, give or take a few years, she may have been baptized as a Judy or Johanna. The Johanna McNamara who was married to Michael McDole was reported as a mother in the Tulla baptism records as Johanna, Judy, and Julia. Perhaps Julia McNamara was baptized in Feakle parish whose records do not start until 1860.

When Julia McNamara married John Hurst in 1884 she was living in Roslara. One explanation for being in Roslara would be to assist the family of Catherine and John McNamara who had such a large family of children. If so, she may have been quite close to their children. I reckon that Peter McNamara, born in 1878, would have certainly known Julia McNamara, and the sad story of her husband being sent to prison in 1890 for ten years, only for Julia to die shortly after his release in 1900. Peter McNamara and Johanna O'Brien in Manhattan did name their first born daughter, Julia McNamara about 1918. The obituary for Johanna McNamara, nee O'Brien, listed her only daughter as "Sister Kathleen Regina M.S.B.T." (Chicago Tribune, 1 December 1963). Julia McNamara had joined the Missionary Servants of the Most Blessed Trinity.

And thanks for earlier pointing out the Ireland Reaching Out mention of Timothy McNamara of Roslara. He was one of 71 immigrants from County Clare to America included in their "Epic Journeys" exhibition. Their research methodology relied mostly upon the work done by Tom McDowell, so immigrants who came through Ellis Island mostly by steamship. A vastly different experience from the Irish famine immigrants who came to America by sailing ships, also known as the coffin ships. They say that so many died on these ships during the famine period that sharks would trail the ships for the dead that were thrown overboard. What a horrible way to go. The ghosts still haunt the waves.

In reading "About Epic Journeys", I disagree with their statement, "Records show that the vast majority of people who passed through Ellis Island never returned to Ireland, and many never saw their families again". I would agree to this statement if it was referring to the immigrants who came to America during the Great Famine, but not those immigrants who came by steamship through Ellis Island. In our search for the missing Thomas McNamara, I've been surprised how many of the McNamara's who arrived in the late 19th century and early 20th century did return to Ireland. The "UK and Ireland Incoming Passengers (1878 - 1960)" records are full of Irish who returned to Ireland from America for a visit or perhaps to stay.

Ellen McNamara, the sister of the profiled Timothy McNamara, didn't just return to Ireland in 1912 as previously mentioned. On the SS Arabic arriving in New York on 21 September 1907 was Ellen McNamara, age 26, from Tulla; a prior resident of the USA for 14 years; mother Kate McNamara of Roslara, Tulla, Clare; brother Michael McNamara at 269 Pearl Street, Brooklyn. Ellen McNamara appears to have been traveling in 1907 with Catherine Counihan, age 25, a prior USA resident of 8 years; father Michael Counihan of Annaghneal, Tulla, Clare, and was going back to New Haven, Connecticut. I don't think it was terribly difficult or "epic" or uncommon to travel from New York City to Ireland during the era of steamship travel. Any research on immigrants returning to Ireland for a visit has to consider that living in America appears to take many years off one's age. Ellen McNamara returning to NY in 1907 was eight years younger than her 1872 baptism would reflect.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JXL5-K5M

The Irish census of 1901 and 1911 are at one moment of time, so it is difficult to determine who had previously been to America. I'm reminded of Nellie Galvin and her brother the Rev. Michael C. Galvin, both appear in the Irish census of 1901 and 1911. But they also lived in Kansas from 1907 to 1910.
http://www.ourlibrary.ca/phpbb2/viewtop ... 1&start=15

Another example would be Andrew McNamara of Laharden, born in 1837, the bachelor gardener, who in 1901 was living with his 87 year old mother, and in 1911 was living with his brother Timothy McNamara (see page 25). How do we know Andrew McNamara had never been to America? He had three cattle in 1900 that kept going on the property of neighbor Mrs. Murphy; was having three cattle a sign of a poor bachelor or maybe someone with a bit of cash who had returned from America? And why did the 64 year old Andrew McNamara get his very first dog license in Tulla, for a female red terrier, only in 1901? The reason was to keep his cattle from going on to the property of Mrs. Murphy, but where had Andrew been the prior two or three decades?

It is interesting that Timothy McNamara of Roslara would arrive in New York in 1902 and appears to have completely disappeared from the record books. A real mystery. Did Timothy work upon the railroad? Did he rid the streets of crime? Were his dollars from the White House? Were they from the Insane Asylum?
The island, it is silent now
But the ghosts still haunt the waves
And the torch lights up a famished man
Who fortune could not save

Did you work upon the railroad?
Did you rid the streets of crime?
Were your dollars from the White House?
Were they from the Five-and-Dime?

Did the old songs taunt or cheer you?
And did they still make you cry?
Did you count the months and years
Or did your teardrops quickly dry?

"Ah, no", says he, "it was not to be
On a coffin ship I came here
And I never even got so far
That they could change my name"

Thousands are sailing
Across the western ocean
To a land of opportunity
That some of them will never see
Fortune prevailing
Across the western ocean
Their bellies full
Their spirits free
They'll break the chains of poverty
And they'll dance

"Thousands are Sailing",
by The Pogues, 1988

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swQNNjXztsI

Sduddy
Posts: 1159
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:32 pm

Hi Jimbo

Thank you for that interesting posting, which ranges over a number of topics.
I’m afraid I don’t know enough about funerals to answer all your questions, but just today I came upon this discussion on pauper funerals which shows that poor people did not have Masses celebrated and did not have priests saying prayers at the graveside. I should say firstly that of course the McNamaras in Roslara were not paupers, and I think it’s impossible to say whether James from Derrymore was very poor, or not.

Clare Freeman, Sat 24 Mar 1877 (from the Limerick Chronicle) :
Interment of Paupers.
The Right Hon Lord Emly, Chairman of the Limerick Board of Guardians, at the weekly meeting held on Wednesday, said a matter had been mentioned outside which came upon him with some surprise. He wished to know from the master if it were the fact that paupers who die in the house and are buried in the workhouse graveyard have not their funerals attended by their respective clergyman.
The Master – It is, my lord.
The Chairman – That is to say they are buried like dogs, without a religious ceremony over them at their graves.
The Master – Yes; the clergymen do not attend at the funerals.
The Chairman – You should have before this brought the attention of the board to so important a matter (hear, hear).
Alderman Myles – It is the custom of the clergymen only to attend such funerals as they are invited to.
The Chairman – I think the board will agree with me that such a custom is a monstrous one (hear, hear).
Alderman Myles – If I want a decent funeral I must give the clergymen who attend scarfs, hat bands and gloves, besides giving them their usual fee.
The Chairman said that some years since he succeeded in passing through Parliament a bill preventing the necessity of Roman Catholic and Dissenting ministers being obliged to ask leave of the clergymen of the Church of England to read their own burial services over the graves of those who were buried in the cemeteries of which teh Establishment ministers had control. That bill was passed into law, and at the time it was considered to be a great boon and benefit. He did not imagine that since the passing of that bill such a disgraceful system should have existed – flinging poor people into holes without religious service being read over them.
Mr Dwyer – The Roman Catholic clergymen very rarely attend the funerals of the poor outside.
The Chairman – At all event, whether it is the fact or not that the poorer classes are buried in that sort of way, we, as guardians, should certainly not allow people dying in this house to be buried in the union graveyard after such a disgraceful manner.
Lord Clarina – Hear, hear.
The Chairman – And therefore on the next board day I shall call the attention of the guardians to this question, and certainly propose that the strictest possible directions be given to the chaplains of both denominations that they attend at the funerals of paupers dying in this house, and read prayers over the grave of every person who dies in the workhouse and is buried in the union graveyard (hear, hear).
Hon. Mr Fitzgibbon – What is the average number of deaths in the house?
The Master – During the winter months it ranges from eight to twelve.
Hon. Mr Fitzgibbon – So that you have on average one internment at least every day?
The Master – We have, sir.
Lord Clarina remarked that the salary of the Roman Catholic chaplain at the lunatic asylum was increased at the last meeting of the board, and that was solely because he was obliged to attend the funerals of patients dying in the institution. It appeared that he had not been in the habit of doing so, and if the guardians were now to request their chaplains to attend the funerals of paupers, the question would arise whether the board might not be called upon to grant an increase of salary. He would like to know what was the salary of the Roman Catholic chaplain.
The Clerk - £150 a year.
Lord Clarina – I therefore think you should bring the matter under the notice of the chaplain, so that if it is their intention to claim an increase of salary we may have time to consider it on the second Wednesday of April.
The Chairman – Quite so. If he were to ask that we should pay him for services which he has not contracted to perform before hand, you should not call that granting him an increase. I am against granting an increase of salary to the chaplains; but if it was shown that there was additional work to be done by them, and we considered they ought to be paid for it, then it would be a matter for consideration whether their salaries shoud be increased or not.
Lord Clarina said he would like to know if there was any document in the possession of the clerk that would show if it was the duty of the chaplains to attend the funerals of paupers buried in the workhouse graveyard.
The Clerk, having read the clause of the compendium defining the duties of workhouse chaplain, said it did not appear that it was compulsory on the chaplains to attend the funerals of paupers who were interred in the union cemetery.
Lord Clarina – I quite agree with what Lord Emly has said, and I certainly think that the chaplains should be called upon to attend at the graveyard when interments are taking place (hear, hear).
Mr Dwyer – The majority of the poor people who died outside this house are buried without any clergyman to read over them. We all know that.
Mr Barry – That is no reason why the guardians should allow the present state of things to exist.
The Chairman – having funerals conducted in such a disgraceful manner is but a relic of a very evil day. It is the relic of a state of things which has now passed away, and I trust that funerals, like other things, may be accommodated to the altered circumstances of the times (hear, hear).
There is at the present moment a bill brought into the House of Lords, by the Duke of Richmond, I believe, and it is proposed by that bill that there shall be in certain cases what are called ‘silent funerals.’ It is intended by the Duke of Richmond’s bill to allow Nonconformists to have in certain churchyards silent funerals – that is funerals at which no religious service or ceremony is held. Now on looking at the newspapers you will see that the Non-Conformists consider it a very great insult for anybody to try to do to them what, it appears, has been always done to every poor person buried in the workhouse graveyard. I cannot conceive anything more disgraceful than to bury poor people in this way (hear, hear).
Mr Dwyer – It is done to poor Roman Catholic people outside as well.
The Chairman – Well, all I can say is that I consider it very disgraceful that it should be so (hear, hear).
Mr Barry – We cannot make a beginning in the matter too soon.
It was agreed that the further consideration of the subject should be deferred to the next meeting of the guardians. – Limerick Chronicle.
Jimbo, I meant to say in my last reply that the address given in the first column of a death record is the place the person died and not necessarily where he lived. I’m afraid my method of transcribing death records is not quite right – I usually give the address as if it were the residence of the person and I realise that that can be misleading.

Sheila

Jimbo
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:43 am

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:19 am

Hi Sheila,

Thank you very much for the 1877 article on "Interment of Paupers" (it is a struggle not to type "internment"). An interesting conversation was had at that Board of Guardians meeting and it answered most of my questions on Irish funerals, and also made clear that I was asking the wrong questions. I found "Lord Emly" to be a very sympathetic man, so read his biography on trusted wikipedia. "Lord Emly" must be "William Monsell, 1st Baron Emly" (1812 - 1894), who was Lord Lieutenant of County Limerick between 1871 and 1894. "Monsell served as the Sheriff of County Limerick in 1835. In 1847, he was elected Member of Parliament for County Limerick as a Liberal, and represented the constituency until 1874. In 1850, he became a Roman Catholic and thereafter took a prominent part in Catholic affairs, especially in Parliament. As a friend of Wiseman, Newman, Montalambert, W. G. Ward, and other eminent Catholics, he was intimately acquainted with the various interests of the Church, and his parliamentary position was often of great advantage to the Church".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_M ... Baron_Emly

Lord Emly's comment that "having funerals conducted in such a disgraceful manner (without a priest) is but a relic of a very evil day", I believe was referring to his prior comment that Catholic clergy had previously been required to ask permission of the clergyman of the Church of England to perform a funeral service at a Church of England graveyard. A Family Search guide for Ireland Catholic records states, "Burials were restricted for the Catholic clergy and many are to be found in the Church of Ireland. Others are scattered throughout the countryside and may require the Ordinance Survey maps to identify. Prior to 1880, only 214 Irish Catholic parishes recorded burials compared to 1042 that recorded records of baptisms." 214 parishes out of a total of 1,087 parishes in Ireland. It would be interesting to obtain a parish burial register, especially one from County Clare, and compare the burials between 1864 and 1880 to the corresponding civil death records. If only burials when a Catholic priest attended the funeral were included in the register, then you get some idea on the percentage the priests attended.

The answer to my prior question about whether Anna McNamara (age 7) of Roslara and her grandfather James McNamara (age 66) of Derrymore Carmody had a requiem Mass in 1876 at their funerals, I believe, would most certainly be "no". The more difficult question would be whether or not a Catholic priest attended their burial at the cemetery. At the Board of Guardian meeting in 1877, a Mr. Dwyer, referring to the people outside the workhouse, stated "The majority of the poor people who died outside this house are buried without any clergyman to read over them. We all know that."

This is quite surprising. For Irish immigrants to America, including famine era immigrants, their obituaries nearly always state the Catholic Church where the funeral will held, and the cemetery for the burial. This would be the case whether living in a big city like New York or in a small town in the Midwest, and whether rich or poor. Not having Catholic priests at the funerals for the poor in Ireland, I reckon, would really anger most Irish immigrants and be a "monstrous custom" that they wouldn't put up with in America.

In 1867, the Rev. William Gleason of Buffalo, New York, refused the funeral of John Lynch due to his being a Fenian, but he was also poor (see page 28). The Rev. William Gleason appears to have been an old school Catholic priest from County Tipperary, where refusing a church funeral or even not attending the burial for a poor Irishman would have been the norm. In the Buffalo newspapers, he was absolutely slammed for his refusal in 1867.

Back to the Board of Guardian meeting, another interesting comment was from a presumably wealthy Alderman Myles stating, "If I want a decent funeral I must give the clergymen who attend scarfs, hat bands and gloves, besides giving them their usual fee".

The Rev. Michael Gleason of Buffalo, who died in December 1895, had as the first item in his final will that "I order my executors to give five dollars to each and every priest, who may attend my funeral, to say one mass for the repose of my soul." Not the clearest wording. The executors of the will were fellow Catholic clergyman from Buffalo, and when a Buffalo newspaper ran an article in 1902 with "Priests' Accounts as Executors Questioned" in bold and all caps, they were no doubt disappointed. The Gleason family of Ireland alleged that the accounts were erroneous. "Improper, excessive and not paid in accordance with the will" was how they deemed "Paid for masses as per will to priests attending funeral, $493.63". There was also $370 on the accounts that represented monies left to Rev. Gleason to say masses which apparently he never got around to which "does not represent indebtedness against the estate of the deceased." There were larger amounts involving bank accounts. One month later, the headline was "Objections are Now Withdrawn" which most likely meant the two parties settled and the Gleason's promised not to say to what amount.

Sheila, you thought it would be "impossible to say whether James from Derrymore was very poor, or not" and thus whether or not there was a Catholic priest at his burial.

For the family of a small farmer like James McNamara from Derrymore, I believe there would be no requiem mass and just one Catholic priest would be required for a "decent funeral", unlike the "clergymen" required by Alderman Myles.

And there is some evidence of the relative wealth of James McNamara as I believe he appears in the 1855 Griffith Valuation for Derrymore East in plot 14 with 28 acres with a valuation of £5. On its own this amount means nothing to me, but it is useful to compare this £5 valuation with his neighbors. Patrick Scanlan in the neighboring townland of Roslara held 77 acres with a valuation of £25 and appears to have been quite wealthy. So James McNamara was 20% as wealthy, but certainly not poor, at least in 1855.

The Patrick Scanlan family of Roslara appears quite remarkable. He not only passed his farm down to one son James, but through education had three other sons become a Catholic priest, medical doctor, and successful merchant. Very similar to the Gleason family of Tipperary.

Stephen Scanlon, medical doctor, of Tulla, son of Patrick Scanlan, farmer, married Frances B. Browne, daughter of a gentleman, Edward B. Browne, of Grove Ville, Tulla in Dublin on 11 November 1891.
Miss Frances Burke Browne, third daughter of Edward Burke Browne, Esq., J.P., Grove Ville, Tulla, County Clare, was married on Wednesday, the 11th, at the University, St. Stephen's Green, to Mr. Stephen Scanlan, M.D., Tulla. The ceremony was performed by the Rev. John Scanlan, P.P. [his brother], and the Rev. James Fort, C.C.
Irish Society, Dublin, 21 November 1891
This marriage was a very big jump in social class in one generation for the Scanlan's. Patrick Scanlan had died prior to this marriage, on 13 April 1890, and according to the calendar of wills, his effects were £259. Edmond Burke Browne died 9 days after his daughter's wedding, on 20 November 1891, and his probate effects were reported as £3,560.
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchiv ... _00384.pdf
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchiv ... _00051.pdf

A google search for "Grove Ville" stated that it was southeast of Maghera Cross and close to Newgrove House, but not much other information. Nor could I find Grove Ville in Tulla on any Griffith Valuation maps. In the newspaper archives Grove Ville first appears in the 1880's when E. B. Browne subscribes to various charity causes. In 1886 he purchased dog licenses for three dogs with Grove Ville listed as residence. And in 1897, the house burnt down. "News has reached Ennis from Tulla that Grove Ville, a handsome mansion situate on the road from Ennis to Tulla, and within two miles of the latter town, belonging to the Burke-Browne family, has been destroyed by fire. . . At the time the only inmates of the house were Mr. William Burke-Browne and a domestic servant. . . In little over half an hour nothing but the charred walls were left standing." (Belfast News Letter, 3 June 1897).

Another son of Patrick Scanlan was Michael A. Scanlan who died in Ennis at the age of 43 in 1900 and must have been of considerable importance as about 40 Catholic priests attended his funeral and are listed in a very long obituary. The celebrant of the mass was his brother the Rev. John Scanlan, P.P., of Cloughjordan, Tipperary. Michael A. Scanlan, J.P., was Chairman of the Clare City Council and his residence was on Jail Street. According to the calendar of wills, his effects totaled £4,106.
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchiv ... _00521.pdf

Comparing the £5 GV valuation of James McNamara of Derrymore East with the £25 GV valuation of Patrick Scanlan of Roslara has one great weakness as the valuation was as of 1855. The Scanlan family in the ensuing decades appears to have greatly moved up in prosperity and social class, and the McNamara perhaps downward. James McNamara and Mary Fitzgerald had two sons named James in the early 1840's, neither may have survived childhood, which may have impacted their wealth. Plus, they had five daughters, for whom they could supply a dowry for two marriages. The fact that their daughter Catherine McNamara married a widower who was about 15 years older than her, and had five young children by his first marriage, likely allowed for a reduced dowry. And also might be a sign of reduced circumstances for the James McNamara family of Derrymore.

Sheila, I'm still not sure whether or not James McNamara of Derrymore or his granddaughter Anne McNamara of Roslara would have had a Catholic priest at their funerals (burials) in 1876. But this exercise on relative prosperity has made me realize that we overlooked an important clue. Your final comment about the location reported on Irish death records being the place the person died and not their residence, reminded me of Timothy McNamara of Magherabaun who died in the spa town of Lisdoonvarna in 1915 (see page 18). Timothy McNamara was a 66 year old bachelor living with his older brother Denis in Magherabaun in the 1901 census.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... n/1084821/

We never found his death record in 1915. I searched again unsuccessfully using Timothy, Thadeus, and Thady. But what is extraordinary was the calendar of wills record which listed his death on 15 June 1915 with effects of £414.

http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchiv ... _00285.pdf

How could Timothy McNamara, born about 1835, one of the sons of James and Margaret McNamara of Magherabaun Plot 15, have amassed this large amount by 1915? Surely not by being a farmer or laborer in Feakle as an older brother appears to have inherited the farm (conflicting evidence as to the ages of James, Denis and Timothy). And take a close look at the 1901 census, nearly every man has an occupation such as "farmer" or "laborer" or "carpenter" etc. On the other hand, Timothy McNamara has just a "-", the census taker does not know how to classify him. Again, on the calendar of wills, everyone was classified as "farmer", "laborer", "widow" etc. Yet, Timothy McNamara has no classification? How did he earn his money? I reckon Timothy is another Irish immigrant who has returned to Ireland after making his fortune, perhaps in the gold fields of California or Australia?

Timothy McNamara of Magherabaun does not show up in the 1911 census. He appears to have been independently wealthy, perhaps he took a holiday to Europe? Since no death record has yet been discovered, I searched the newspaper archives for Timothy McNamara and any news of his death in 1915 in Lisdoonvarna, but with no luck. Lisdoonvarna was a spa town and fairly close to the coast for swimming which was noted in the spa hotel advertisements. Not to be morbid, but if Timothy McNamara had gone for a swim and drowned with no body being recovered, would there have been a civil death record? The tourist town of Lisdoonvarna would want to keep any drowning quiet as not to hurt their tourist image, perhaps explaining no newspaper reports? The Rev. Ambrose Bowles drowned at nearby Lahinch bay in 1846; he was a great uncle to Timothy's sister-in-law, Margaret Bowles McNamara.

What is also fascinating about Timothy McNamara, born about 1835 according to the 1901 census, is that if he had immigrated to America, he would be the correct age to fight in the American Civil War. Could the missing Civil War soldier Thomas McNamara of Glandree also have returned to Ireland?

Sduddy
Posts: 1159
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:40 pm

Hi Jimbo,
So many interesting questions and musings to mull over.
I’m glad you have come back to the subject of emigrants returning, which you had raised in your previous posting. It was interesting to see that Ellen McNamara from Rosslara returned, and you have done a lot work in the course of this thread to show that the return of emigrants was more common than is generally supposed (though historians are probably well aware of it). Nevertheless, I was surprised to read in the Clare Freeman of men, who had gone to America pre-1877, returning home with the intention of trying Australia instead. At the time of this report, the U.S. was recovering from a crippling railstrike, which probably affected availability of work:

Clare Freeman, Sat 1 Sep 1877:
Numbers are daily emigrating from this town and surrounding districts to Australia and Queensland. Today several left by train for embarkation.
Clare Freeman, Sat 1 Sep 1877:
It would cause the Home Rulers alarm had they been on the quay of Kilrush on the starting of the steamers, at 10.30 a.m., and at 3 p.m., to have seen the number of fine young men and women, taking a last farewell of their fathers, mothers, sisters, and not a few sweethearts for ever, on the journey to the different parts of the Australian colonies. It was heartrending to hear the wild Irish cry of the old women, and the smothered sobs of the men which were kept up as long as the steamers were in view. There were some few young men amongst the out-going emigrants, who had been in the States of America, and who are now about to try their fortunes at the other side of the globe, and it is the belief of many that there will be a wild rush from this country next season if the crops fail. Correspondent.
But I think the numbers returning were probably very small compared to the overall numbers. This report, on the following Saturday, shows that it not the falling rate of marriages and births that contributed most to the fall in population in Ireland, but, rather, the numbers emigrating:
Clare Freeman, Sat 8 Sep 1877:
We have received the quarterly return of marriages, births, and deaths from the General Registry office. During the quarter ended 30th June last, there were registered in the 795 Registrars’ Districts in Ireland 37,280 births – a number equal to an annual birth rate of 27.9 in every 1,000 of the estimated population – and 25,710 deaths, representing an annual mortality of 19.3 per 1,000. In the same period (according to the returns obtained by the Royal Irish Constabulary and Metropoltan Police, who acted as enumerators at the several Irish seaports,) 12,666 persons emigrated. A decrease of 1,096 would, therefore, appear to have taken place in the population. The population estimated to the middle of this year is 5,388,906.
About priests attending (or not attending) the funerals of the poor, I think that the most important thing for the people in Ireland, at that time, was that the priest came when the person was dying and anointed them, i.e. gave absolution – that was the time when the priest was most needed – after that he was somewhat superfluous. You have quoted Yeats in the past, and maybe you know of his poem, ‘The Ballad of Father Gilligan.’: https://www.bartleby.com/250/19.html.
Also I think that the poor were not buried like dogs – there were traditions pertaining to burial that amount to a ceremony in themselves – the wake, the crying of the women, the carrying of the coffin, which was often rested on specially designated stones on the way, and other traditions which varied from place to place. Irish people, like other peoples all over the world, did not lack a sense of occasion.
I was interested in your understanding of the words “a relic of a very evil day.” My own understanding was that Lord Emly was referring to famine times when people were probably buried like dogs. I’ve noticed that the Famine was never (or at least rarely) referred to as a famine, and so I thought that “evil times” was quite similar to “An Drochshaol” (“The bad days”), the words usually used in the Irish language when speaking of the Great Famine.
Jimbo, there is one (very precious) death register from Co. Clare made available online by NLI. It belongs to the parish of Kilmurry McMahon and goes from 1844 to 1848: https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls ... 1/mode/1up. I transcribed it: https://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/cocla ... cmahon.htm. But, while the register was made by the priest, I don’t think we can take from it that the priest attended every one of those funerals.
Jimbo, I’m just giving my own current opinion; I find other opinions interesting and stimulating and helpful in modifying my own.

Timothy McNamara from Magherabaun: Yes, that was quite a sum of money he left when he died, and the fact that he was staying in Lisdoonvarna at the time suggests that he was comfortably off. People often went to Lisdoonvarna on the advice of a doctor so he may have been in bad health before he went there. I agree that it’s very possible that he had returned from America. But, since he was not obliging enough to marry, there’s no record that will tell us (for sure) that he was ever there.

Sheila

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