Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

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Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:35 am

Hi Jimbo,

Your sudden dive into the unrelated* topic of the civil war caused me to have a flashback to that moment a couple of years ago when I thought you were going to dive into the Moloneys: a kind of thorny, knotted jungle rose up before my eyes.

I’ve shied away from reading articles on the civil war and from Joe Power’s book – I did not want to read about old comrades turning on each other. But your recommendation of it is making me think again, and it’s on my to-do list now. I don’t know if you’ve read much on the preceding War of Independence, and I don’t know if you’ve looked at Ger Browne’s donation of his work on the data relating to Co. Clare: https://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/cocla ... 6_1923.htm. If you have, you may have noticed that one of the Companies in the 5th Battalion of the East Clare Brigade was F Company: Glendree: https://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/cocla ... rigade.pdf - scroll down to page 192. No doubt many of the names are familiar to you. Likewise with E Company: Knockjames (p 187). The listing of these men (and women) was an effort by the Free State Government to give them due recognition for their part in the fight for independence, but I imagine that some people must have refused to cooperate with the Free State Government – a Government they did not recognize – and they are missing from the picture now. I suppose we will never have a full picture.
It’s hard for us to appreciate now that many of these men did not possess a gun, and that a lot of the action they engaged in was simply to get guns.

*The topic of the civil war is not totally unrelated to your previous post, of course, since, as you show, Bridget (Delia) O’Donohue arrived back in Ireland in the middle of it. You have done a great job of building a picture of her life as a servant. And I’m sure you are right when you say that it was in the role of servant she accompanied the priests during the voyage. I gather that “Bridget” was such a common name among Irish servants it became a general term for all female Irish servants. Some months ago I read The Irish Bridget: Irish Immigrant Women in Domestic Service in America, 1840 -1930, by Margaret Lynch-Brennan, and found it very interesting, and a book I will certainly read again. On page 94, on the subject of cleanliness, the author says
Although bathrooms were common in private homes in cities by 1870s, and hot and cold running water could be found in most urban homes by about 1880, it was not a given that home owners ensured that plumbing reached attics where the servants’ bedrooms were so frequently located. Thus, for servants, cleanliness was an issue – they were supposed to meet the standards of cleanliness of the house in which they worked, without necessarily having access to its resources.
Jimbo, you will be interested to hear that Fr. Hugh Quigly is referred to in the book (p 138):
Charles Fanning avers that in 1853, Father Hugh Quigly, an Irish immigrant priest who ministered to immigrants in the rural area northeast of Troy, New York, wrote a novel, The Cross and the Shamrock; or, How to Defend the Faith, an Irish-American Catholic Tale of Real Life, specially, “’For the Entertainment and Special Instruction of the Catholic Male and Female Servants in the United States’” (1997, 123) … Fanning indicates that the novel was very popular – more than 250,000 copies of it were sold (125-29).

Thank you for taking so much trouble to show how you found the records for "Bridge," etc.

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:18 am

Cobwebs

The spider as an artist
Has never been employed
Though his surpassing merit
Is freely certified

By every broom and Bridget
Throughout a Christian land.
Neglected son of genius,
I take thee by the hand.

Emily Dickinson. Complete Poems (1924).
Emily Dickinson (1830 - 1886) of Amherst, Massachusetts, was a contemporary of Elizabeth McNamara Hornbeck (≈1833 - 1910) of Wawarsing, New York, who was identified as the sister of the missing Civil War soldier Thomas McNamara of Glandree in the 1869 information wanted advertisement posted by Mary McNamara Madigan of Barnsley, Yorkshire.

Sduddy
Posts: 1826
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:03 am

Hi Jimbo

I enjoyed reading that poem by Emily Dickinson this morning. Only she could describe a spider as a genius - and me feel better about all the cobwebs.
Her Irish servant, Margaret Maher, wasn't such a "broom and Bridget", or so thorough in her housework as to burn Dickinson's poems, as she had been requested to do. She is credited with saving them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Maher

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:07 am

Hi Sheila,

In the poem Emily Dickinson appears to have a strong kinship to the spider. Both were artists; Emily was never employed outside her home, unlike the "Irish Bridget"; and Emily would have felt "neglected" as her poems only became famous after her death. As "Bridget" was about to "certify" the cobweb, as in squash with her broom, Emily Dickinson saved the spider who she felt more in common with than her Irish servant.

Thank you for providing the wikipedia biography for Margaret Maher, the Irish servant who started working for the Dickinson household in March 1869. This must be one of the most detailed personal histories of any Irish domestic servant in America. The fact that Margaret Maher's brother-in-law, Tom Kelley, was the chief pallbearer along with five other Irish Catholic laborers at Emily Dickinson's funeral, at her specific request, was very odd.

A niece of Tom Kelley, Margaret Kelley, died in Amherst on 27 July 1872 at the age of 17 years old. "Little Irish Maggie went to sleep this morning at six o'clock, just the time grandpa rises, and will rest in the grass at Northampton tomorrow. She has had a hard sickness, but her awkward little life is saved and gallant now. Our Maggie is helping her mother put her in the cradle. . ." in a letter written by Emily Dickinson on the 27th of July (* source below, letter 375). "Our Maggie" was Margaret Maher. In the Dickinson household in the 1870 census, she was reported as "Margaret Marhar", age 22; and in the 1880 census as "Margaret Kelley", age 35. The Dickinson family likely just knew their Irish servant Margaret Maher as "Irish Maggie".

1870 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MD34-KRW
1880 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MH6P-SGQ

Less is known about the Dickinson's earlier Irish born servants, who include a Rosa Mack and Margaret O'Brien. Given our search for the missing Thomas McNamara of Glandree, I was intrigued to discover a Mack connection to Emily Dickinson. Both servants get a mention by Emily Dickinson in her letters and in the census reports.

Emily's brother, Austin, "left home on Saturday, 7 June 1851, to begin a year's engagement as teacher in the boys' section of the Endicott School in the North End of Boston, settled largely by Irish immigrants who had fled the potato famine of 1847" (*, source below). Austin and Emily kept up a frequent correspondence. Emily Dickinson, with the anti-Irish prejudice of her class as well as of the times, wrote affectionately to Austin with some very unkind suggestions on how to deal with his Irish pupils:
15 June 1851
To Austin Dickinson

From what you say Dear Austin I am forced to conclude that you never received my letter which was mailed for Boston Monday, but two days after you left — I don't know where it went to . . .

. . . You would not take it amiss if I should say we laughed some when each of your letters came — your respected parents were overwhelmed with glee, and as for the young ladies they gave a smile or so by way of recognizing your descriptive merits. Father remarks quite briefly that he "thinks they have found their master," mother bites her lips, and fears you "will be rash with them" and Vinnie and I say masses for poor Irish boys souls. So far as I am concerned I should like to have you kill some — there are so many now, there is no room for Americans, and cant think of a death that would be more after my mind than scientific destruction, scholastic dissolution, there's something lofty in it, it smacks of going up! Wont you please to state the name of the boy that turned the faintest, as I like to get such facts to set down in my journal, also anything else that's startling which you many chance to know — I dont think deaths or murders can ever come amiss in a young woman's journal. . .

. . . [other local Amherst gossip] . . .

Yours aff
Emily.

* The Letters of Emily Dickinson, edited by Thomas H. Johnson, 1958; Letter 43.
The U.S. Post Office has only gotten worse since 1851.

Irish born servant Rosa Mack gets a mention in a letter from 1852.
5 April 1852
To Susan Gilbert (Dickinson)

Will you be kind to me, Susie? I am naughty and cross, this morning, and nobody loves me here; nor would you love me, if you should see me frown, and hear how loud the door bangs whenever I go through; and yet it is'nt anger — I don't believe it is, for when nobody sees, I brush away big tears with the corner of my apron, and go working on — bitter tears . . .

Little Emerald Mack is washing, I can hear the warm suds, splash. I just gave her my pocket handkerchief — so I cannot cry any more.

. . . [yadda yadda yadda] . . .

Dear Susie — adieu!
Emilie —

"Emerald" was used to distinguish Mrs. Mack, the Irish washerwoman, from members of the family of Deacon David Mack who also lived in Amherst. (ibid, explanation of above Letter 85).
Mrs. Rosa Mack appears to have worked for the Dickinson family for only a few years in the 1850's as a laundrywoman. Irish born Rosanna Mack remained in Amherst and was 55 years old in the 1860 census:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MZCD-T39

Rosa Mack, maiden name "Dowd", died in Amherst on 14 August 1872 at the reported age of 70 years:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FH18-MHD

"Mack" in Ireland, at least in Tulla Parish, appears to always refer to "McNamara". But in America, the use of "Mack" could refer to McEnroe (see page 4) or McGillycuddy or a host of other Irish surnames that begin with "Mc". Rosa Mack's maiden name, Dowd or Doud, appears to be far more common in Galway than Clare, according to the 1901 Irish census.

By 1860, a live-in domestic servant, Margaret O'Brien, born in Ireland, reported age reflecting an approximate 1830 birth, was living with the Dickinson family:

1860: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MZCD-5FS
1865: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQC8-QXV

Margaret O'Brien worked for the Dickinson's for about nine or ten years, until her own marriage to Stephen Lawler, an Irish born laborer and widower with four young children, on 18 October 1865 in Holyoke, Hampden County, Massachusetts. Poor Emily was not pleased with her servant's marriage as she now had to do her own washing up and had little time for writing letters and poetry:
early November 1865
To Mrs. J.G. Holland

Dear Sister,

Father called to say . . .

Besides wiping the dishes for Margaret, I wash them now, while she becomes Mrs. Lawler, vicarious papa to four previous babes. Must she not be an adequate bride?

I winced at her loss, because I was in the habit of her, and even a new rolling pin has an embarrassing element, but to all except anguish, the mind soon adjusts.

It is November. The noons are more laconic and the sundowns sterner . . .

Emily

ibid, Letter 311
Massachusetts marriage and death records both request name of father and mother, and this information was completed for Stephen Lawler. However, for Margaret O'Brien the information was left blank in her 1865 marriage; and the 1886 death record only reports her father's surname as "O'Brien".

1865 marriage: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N4SG-GQN
1870 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MD3H-B8Y

23 May 1886 death of Margaret O'Brien Lawler: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N75V-T4W
13 December 1888 death of Stephen Lawler: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N7YZ-GBY

Being a domestic servant was difficult work and Margaret O'Brien had no safety net if she were to get injured at the Dickinson house or in her old age. So her 1865 marriage, despite the displeasure of Emily Dickinson, was a "win win" situation for both Margaret O'Brien and Stephen Lawler, a widower with four young children who needed looking after.

It is interesting to compare the marriage of Margaret O'Brien in 1865 with the marriage of Elizabeth McNamara, the sister of the missing Civil War soldier Thomas McNamara of Glandree.

Age at marriage: Margaret O'Brien's death record in 1886 at the age of 63 reflects a birth of 1823. The census reports at the Dickinson household reflect a birth year of 1830, perhaps a typical fib to appear younger. Possibly, Margaret O'Brien was 42 years old when she married Stephen Lawler in 1865. There is no marriage record for Elizabeth McNamara and John D. Hornbeck, however, they had a one year old daughter, Clarissa, in the 1855 NY state census. So perhaps married about 1852 or 1853, and based upon census reports, Elizabeth McNamara would have been about 20 years old when she married.

Age difference: Stephen Lawler, a widower with four children, would have been in his forties, about the same age as Margaret O'Brien. John D. Hornbeck, a widower with two young children, was age 40 in the 1850 census, so would have been over twice the age of Elizabeth McNamara.

Social status and religion: Stephen Lawler was an Irish born laborer in Massachusetts, presumably Catholic. John D. Hornbeck was a prosperous farmer whose ancestry went back to Dutch immigrants who settled in New York in the mid 17th century. The Hornbeck family were members of the Reformed Protestant Dutch Church of Wawarsing.

Sheila, the book "Irish Bridget" that you mentioned, along with the "broom and Bridget" reference in the poetry of Emily Dickinson, might be important clues to the identity of "Elizabeth McNamara". Given that "Bridget" in America was synonymous with an Irish domestic servant, and frequently mocked in the American press, might an Irish born Bridget McNamara, who married into an old respectable American family, decide to forgo being "Bridget Hornbeck", but instead opt for, say, "Elizabeth Hornbeck"?

Just a theory, of course. It would be good to find the McNamara/Hornbeck marriage record from the 1850's, and the birth records for their children: Clarissa, Charles, Elanora, and William.

One prior theory, see page three, that perhaps "Elizabeth McNamara" was a "Johanna McNamara", I now reckon was less likely. The basis of this theory was that John D. Hornbeck, whose first wife named "Jane Ann" died young, would not want to be reminded of this tragedy, and thus his second wife, the similar sounding "Johanna McNamara", went by "Elizabeth Hornbeck". New evidence was uncovered last month makes me question this theory. Michael McNamara (≈1836 - 1922) of Ahish, Caher townland, did not appear too bothered when after his first wife Honora McMahon died in 1881, fourteen months later he married another Honora McMahon, the same exact name. Plus, the Johanna McNamara who I had in mind to marry John Hornbeck, the daughter of John McNamara and Mary Kelly, was born in November 1835, and I reckon was a little young to get married in 1852 or 1853. Her elder sister, Bridget McNamara, born in February 1834, would have been 18 or 19 years old, a fairly typical age for a bride if she was living back in Tulla parish.

Was the missing Civil War soldier Thomas McNamara of Glandree, the son of John McNamara and Mary Kelly??

John McNamara (1800 ?? - ??) and Mary Kelly (1800 ?? - prior to 1840??) of Glandree:

............ 1.? missing baptism register (March 1822 through August 1825)

............ 1.1 Mary McNamara, of Glandree, baptized 17 December 1825, mother reported as "Mary McNamara", sponsors Laurence Kelly and Catherine Bowles.

............ 1.? missing baptism register (June 1826 through May 1827) - Elizabeth McNamara, the 2nd wife of John Hornbeck of Wawarsing NY??

............ 1.2 James McNamara, of Glandree, baptized 22 November 1828, sponsors John McNamara, Anne Cavana.

............ 1.3 John McNamara, of Glandree, baptized 11 July 1830, sponsors Martin O'Dea, Honora Linane.

............ 1.4 Thomas McNamara, of Glandree, baptized 6 May 1832, sponsors John Nunan, Biddy Birmingham. - the missing Civil War soldier of Glandree??

............ 1.5 Bridget McNamara, of Glandree, baptized 24 February 1834, sponsor Bridget Kelly. - the 2nd wife of John Hornbeck of Wawarsing NY??

............ 1.6 Johanna McNamara, of Glandree, baptized 8 November 1835, sponsor Cath Roughan. - the 2nd wife of John Hornbeck of Wawarsing NY??

....... POSSIBLE Marriage to Bridget Coffey (as discussed on page eight)

............ 1.7 Mary McNamara, of Glandree, baptized 28 January 1840, sponsor Sally Coffey - married to James Madigan (witness Andrew McNamara), to Barnsley Yorkshire??

............ 1.8 Anne McNamara, no location, baptized August 1843, sponsor Anne Couney.

............ 1.9 Pat McNamara, of Glandree, baptized March 1845, sponsor Bid Lambert.

............ 1.10 Michael McNamara, of Glandree, baptized 8 January 1847, sponsor Mary McMahon.

Edit (9/23): in family tree, added new theory that Elizabeth McNamara of Wawarsing was born in the missing baptism period of June 1825 through May 1827.
Last edited by Jimbo on Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:48 am

Hi Jimbo

Thank you for all that information on the Dickinsons’ Irish servants.
Emily Dickinson seems to have had a special regard for Tom Kelley: at the end of the Wikipedia piece, Reference No. 2. gives a link to a preview of the book “Maid as Muse”: Murray, Aífe (2009). "Warm and Wild and Mighty". Maid as Muse: How Domestic Servants Changed Emily Dickinson's Life and Language. If you scroll down to page 192 of that preview, you will see that Tom Kelley comforted Emily Dickinson when she heard the news that Otis Lord was very sick:
Meanwhile, Tom [Kelley] had come, and I ran to his Blue Jacket and let my Heart break there – that was the warmest place. “He will be better. Dont cry Miss Emily. I could not see you cry.”
There’s a Chronology at the end of the book (starting about paged 243) which, at the 1856 winter point (end of page 244), includes a note on Margaret O’Brien Lawler, but most of it concerns her one good dress: ‘a “bright scarlet merino” that she wears “to church summer and winter with a Bay State shawl, and a ‘Florence’ bonnet trimmed with a medium shade of green ribbon.”’ That chronology also shows that, although the pall bearers are described as Irish, one of them, Stephen Sullivan, was born in Amherst (see top of page 246).

Jimbo, I have made the journey from being doubtful about the frequency of second marriages to realizing that a second marriage was the obvious next step for a widower left with young children, or for a widow left without a means of support. You put it well when you say a second marriage could be a win win situation. The theory that John McNamara, husband of Mary Kelly (see Tulla baptisms), was widowed and then married again is just a theory, but it has an advantage over other possible theories in that it has a Mary who was born in 1840, which is very close to the birth year Mary Madigan gives for herself (1841) in the England censuses of 1871, 1881 and 1891.

I can see that “Bridget” might be a bit of an embarrassment for the Hornbeck family, but I think the theory that Elizabeth’s name was originally Bridget is a bit weak; I think Elizabeth really was Elizabeth - or Eliza, or Lizzy, or Betty, or Bessy.

I don’t believe we will ever know if John McNamara, who was married to Mary Kelly in Glandree, is the same John McNamara who married Bridget Coffee; I don’t recall seeing any evidence that either of these couples continued to live in Glendree after the famine, and I don’t recall seeing any marriage records that gave John McNamara as the father of the bride or groom, so we have little or nothing to go on. The deaths of four John McNamaras were registered in Tulla between 1864 and 1870, and, if ever the images are made available online, we will see if any of them came from Glendree; if there is no trace of a John (of a suitable age) from Glendree, we must accept that eviction, or want of employment, or emigration caused a change of address and that those families are lost to us now.

Jimbo, we have had much recourse to the Catholic parish records, and have allowed for the gaps in those records, but we really should also allow for the fact that some parents converted to Protestantism and that some of their children were not baptised by a Catholic priest. This article, “Tour of Historic Buildings in Tulla, County Clare”, by Michael McMahon, shows a large increase in numbers of children attending the Protestant School in the middle of the 19th century (scroll down to Stop 6): https://heritage.clareheritage.org/plac ... unty-clare. I think the likelihood that Thomas, Elizabeth and Mary McNamara were Protestant is very slight, but should not be ignored entirely.

This Wikipedia article explains “Souperism” and “Souper” schools: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Souperism

Sheila

Jimbo
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Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:43 am

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:15 am

Hi Sheila,

Thanks for providing a link to the "Tour of Historic Buildings of Tulla" by Michael McMahon. Very nice photos of all the buildings. I had previously stumbled upon the Tulla tour website when researching the 1856 will of John Harrison, married to Johanna Walsh. According to the will, "the title to the burial vault erected in the chapel yard of Tulla was given to his son John Harrison, age 2". Stop 10 of the Tulla tour has a photo of the Catholic church, but the headstones / burial vaults are not visible. However, on google street view they are visible to the right facing the church. A burial vault, if it exists, might not just contain John Harrison, Sr., but also his young son John, Jr., who went missing. I couldn't find any transcriptions for these headstones at the Clare library site to verify this theory.

The Souper School, stop 6 on the tour, has an interesting history. But I agree with you that it would be very unlikely that the missing Thomas McNamara of Glandree, or his two known sisters, ever step foot in this building. Mary McNamara, reported as Johanna, married Thomas Madigan in the Catholic church in 1860. And their first two children were baptized in 1861 and 1863 as reported in the Tulla Catholic baptism register.

As far as the identity of Elizabeth McNamara of Wawarsing, the sister of the missing Thomas McNamara of Glandree, I also agree that my "Bridget" theory was a bit weak. Although an improvement to the prior "Johanna" theory. But there is a far more simple theory for Elizabeth McNamara of Wawarsing.

Back in June 2020 (page 25), I had discovered that John McNamara and Mary Kelly of Glandree had a daughter, Mary, in December 1825. The priest had mistakenly reported the mother as Mary McNamara. After this late discovery, I made some adjustments to the John McNamara family tree:
With the addition of a child born in 1825, I've shifted my estimate of when parents John McNamara and Mary Kelly were born to about 1800. This birth year would be consistent with most of the John McNamara's whose deaths were registered in Tulla between 1864 and 1878, including: a John McNamara died in 1866, aged 68; a John McNamara died in 1868, aged 67; a John McNamara died in 1869, aged 69; a John McNamara died in 1875, aged 80; and a John McNamara died in 1870, aged 92. These records are not yet available online.
But what I failed to do, until now, is to consider whether or not John McNamara and Mary Kelly had any other children in the newly created large gap between the baptism of Mary McNamara on 17 December 1825 and the baptism of James McNamara on 22 November 1828. This is a 35 month period, nearly three years. In the subsequent births of their five children through Johanna McNamara in November 1835, there was never even a two year period between births, let alone three years. Surely, John McNamara and Mary Kelly had a child in the period of the missing Tulla baptism register between June 1826 and May 1827. Might not that child have been an Elizabeth McNamara?

Elizabeth McNamara Hornbeck of Wawarsing reported her birth as March 1833 in the 1900 census, and her memorial page (not an actual headstone) on findagrave states a birth of 3 March 1833:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/700 ... -hoornbeek

Early USA census reports for Elizabeth Hornbeck starting in 1855 also reflect an approximate birth year of 1832 / 1833. Very consistent, but perhaps not accurate? Could Elizabeth McNamara have been born on, say, 3 March 1827? Irish immigrants to America frequently cut five or so years from their age when they crossed the Atlantic. It would not be unusual, and in fact it would be typical, if Elizabeth McNamara reported a birth year of 1833, but was actually born in 1827. A six year difference. I've gone back to my prior posting and added another Elizabeth McNamara born in the missing baptism register period of June 1826 to May 1827 as another possibility to be the sister of the missing Civil War soldier Thomas McNamara of Glandree. Of course, this remains just a theory.

Elizabeth McNamara was not an uncommon name, but not nearly as common as a Bridget, Mary, or Margaret. Thus, it is reasonable to have a look at the passenger listings for when Elizabeth McNamara of Wawarsing likely immigrated. By allowing that Elizabeth McNamara was a bit older and possibly born in 1827, it increases the number of Elizabeth McNamara's who immigrated. Also, it's important to consider that Elizabeth McNamara may not have reported an accurate age on the passenger listing.

In the 1900 census, Elizabeth McNamara Hornbeck stated her year of immigration to America as 1850 and she had been in the USA for 50 years. Similar to age, the reported year of immigration was often an approximate year. I've looked at passenger listings for ships arriving as early as 1848, but in 1850 America did receive lots of Irish emigrants:
IRELAND.—The Limerick Chronicle says that emigration is again amazingly on the increase, not, however, so much for Canada as to the United States, and the train from this [Limerick] to Dublin is daily crowded with intending emigrants, mostly agricultural, and who embark for their destination at this port (*).
Valley Spirit, Chambersburg, Pennsylvania, 27 April 1850

* by "this port", I believe they mean Dublin, but then some emigrants would continue to Liverpool.

1 **********
A Betsey McNamara, age 20, arrived in New York from Liverpool on the packet ship Milicete on 1 February 1848. Betsey appears to have been traveling with a James McNamara, age 40, possibly a carpenter (the occupations don't line up well with the passengers). Was James a father, brother, cousin, or husband? Also on board was a 20 year old Hugh Quigley, traveling with his parents and three siblings.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:27GR-Q6F

The packet ship Milicete, captain Thomas Hunter, was initially scheduled to depart Liverpool on 16 December 1847, but a later advertisement stated a scheduled departure of 28 December 1847, which appears to have been the actual departure. So the journey took about 35 days.


2 **********
An Eliza McNamara, age 20, arrived in New York from Liverpool on the packet ship West Point on 7 March 1848.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:27GR-CNZ

This line of packet ships (three different ships advertised) departed Liverpool on the 26th of every month. There were connecting passenger ships from Cork:
FOR NEW YORK
TO SUCCEEED THE "ASHBURTON"
The Packet Ship, WEST POINT, Allen, Commander, starting from Liverpool for NEW YORK, on the 26th January. Passengers should leave CORK on SATURDAY EVENING, 22nd January, at Three o'CLock. For Passage apply to Messrs. . . .

Cork Examiner, 21 January 1848
According to the wikipedia page for The Great Southern and Western Railway, "In July 1848 the main line [of the GS&WR] reached Limerick Junction, where it met the Waterford and Limerick Railway and thus linked Dublin and Limerick by rail."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Sou ... rn_Railway

Eliza McNamara left Ireland before the GS&WR train line was extended to Limerick. If Eliza was from County Clare, would she have taken some other local transportation to Cork and then taken a boat to Liverpool as advertised above? Or would she have taken other transportation to Dublin, and then a boat to Liverpool? Cork looks closer on a map than Dublin, but it depends on what transportation was available. It is interesting to consider how Irish emigrants made their way to Liverpool, and noting that during this period some emigrants took a ship that left for North America directly from Cork, and less commonly from Limerick and Galway.

The West Point departed Liverpool on 27 January 1848, so the journey time to New York was about 40 days. The Eliza McNamara who traveled on the West Point would unlikely ever want to cross the Atlantic again:
VESSEL STRUCK BY LIGHTNING.—The packet ship West Point, arrived yesterday from Liverpool, was, on the 28th of February, when in lat. 38, 30, lon. 67 60, at midnight, struck by lightning seven times within an hour, each time the fluid passing down the mainmast, most of the watch on deck feeling the shocks severely, and two of the crew being instantly killed. The fifth time, Capt. Allen felt himself nearly knocked down, although 50 feet from the mainmast. The names of the seamen killed were John Armstrong of New York, and Marcellus Robinson, of Rhode Island.

The Brooklyn Daily Eagle, 8 March 1848

3 **********
A Libby McNamara, age 15, arrived in New York from Liverpool on the sailing ship Tarquin on 7 May 1850 (according to FamilySearch).

Libby: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:27P8-KGW
First page: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1849782

The identity of the ship that this Libby McNamara arrived in New York is a mystery; the first page with captain sign-off listing the name of the ship is very unclear. FamilySearch states the ship was the "Tarquin" which indeed arrived in New York on 7 Mary 1850. However, both UK and NY newspapers state that the Tarquin departed from Havre, and not Liverpool. Plus, the captain was reported as "Moody", who does not appear on the sign-off page of the passenger listing. Ancestry states that this ship was the "Grace McNea" from Liverpool which does not exist in any newspaper reporting of ship departures or arrivals, and is a very odd name for a ship. The Tarquin sank in September 1850: "The crew, 17 in number of ship Tarquin, before reported abandoned on the voyage from Quebec for London were taken off 11th ult [September] . . . The ship was laden with deals, and was water logged . . . "(Daily Evening Transcript, Boston, 3 October 1850).

Whatever the name of the ship she arrived in New York, I reckon this 15 year old Libby (passenger #195) would be too young to marry a John Hornbeck in his early forties in 1852 or 1853. She was traveling with a Catherine McNamara (#194) who was age 29.


4 **********
An Eliza McNamara, age 20, arrived in Boston from the port of Galway on the barque Charlotte on 16 May 1850. Eliza may have been traveling with the "Frawler" family as her name on the passenger listing was nestled between the Frawler parents and their five children; "Frawley" is a more likely Irish name.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCH6-WWM

Galway was connected by rail to Dublin via the Midland Great Western Railway on 1 August 1851. A train line linking Ennis and Athenry junction and thus Galway city was not opened until 1869. Although there was not a train connection in 1850, if Eliza McNamara was from County Clare, emigrating from Galway, I reckon, was a much better option than distant Liverpool.

A large advertisement ran in the Galway Vindicator, "For the Flourishing City of Boston, The American Ship, "CHARLOTTE", 500 Tons Burden, Thomas Fowler, Commander will Sail on the 30th MARCH, weather permitting. . . (Galway Vindicator, 16 March 1850). "The Charlotte sailed from Galway for Boston, on Wednesday [10 April 1850], with 110 passengers * (Limerick Chronicle, Saturday, 13 April 1850). So the journey from Galway to Boston would have taken approximately 36 days.

Emily Dickinson of Amherst, Massachusetts would not have approved of all the Irish immigrants arriving in Boston in 1850, the large numbers likely included a few future pupils of her brother Austin.
MORE IMMIGRANTS. Upwards of fifteen hundred immigrants arrived at this port since Tuesday. On that day 702 Irish arrived, most of whom were brought in British vessels. Last night came the R.C. Winthrop with 400 more; the Caledonia with 275, Adonis 311, Esther May 250, from Liverpool; and barque Pandora from Cork with 277. At quarantine are the British ship John Francis from Cork with 181; and British brig Charlotte from Galway with 88 *. Today we have the British brig Garland from Ireland with 87 of her own passengers and 53 taken from the wreck of the British ship Seraphine, already reported abandoned at sea.

Daily Evening Transcript, Boston, 16 May 1850

* The actual passenger listing for the Charlotte included 116 passengers

5 **********
An Eliza McNamara, age 21, arrived in New York from Limerick on the sailing ship Hopewell on 5 July 1850. She appears to have been traveling with a Thomas McNamara, age 27.

Index only: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDXR-S6K

Passenger listing (ancestry subscription required): note the departure port was transcribed as "Munich, Germany", an obvious error and geographic impossibility:
https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse ... cessSource
AMERICA
Now in Port, direct from Limerick
FOR NEW YORK
Wind and Weather permitting, on or about the
10th of May,
The well-known, Copper Fastened, Copper Bottomed Barque,
HOPEWELL
300 Tons
JOHN LESLIE, COMMANDER

This splendid well-known Barque in the American Passenger Trade, had accommodation for First and Second Cabin Passengers, as also for Steerage, of a very superior kind, and Capt. Leslie will observe that the same attention to paid to the comforts of those sailing with him this Voyage as merited the thanks of the Passengers that sailed in her last trip, and who arrived in good health in New York. He will also afford every possible information to the Passengers on the Voyage. Passengers by this Ship will be supplied once a week, with the following Sea Stores, all of the best quality, viz.:—2½lbs Bread, 1lb Flour, 1lb Pork, 3 lbs Oatmeal, 2lbs Rice, 2ozs Tea, ½lb Sugar, and ½lb Molasses, besides 3 quarters of Water daily, in accordance with the new Act of Parliament, which came into operation in October last.
Apply for Berths to:
RYAN BROTHERS & CO
General Emigration Agents, at the American Consulate Office, Howley's Quay, Limerick.

Limerick and Clare Examiner, 27 April 1850
THE FLIGHT FROM IRELAND.—Cleared with passengers at the Limerick Customhouse since Saturday last:—British Queen, for New York, 139; Wyandotte, do. 128; Argent, Quebec, 98; Derwent, do. 91; Hopewell, New York, 124. Additional at Kilrush—Lively, for Boston, 21 **. Total, 601. Nothing can equal the rage for emigrating. The quays crowded from morning to night.—Limerick Chronicle

Westmeath Independent, 18 May 1850
The passengers who left for North America directly from Limerick have a greater chance to be from County Clare, I reckon, than a ship departing from Liverpool. It would be interesting to obtain a list of all ships that departed from Limerick.

** The brig Lively, which the newspaper stated left Kilrush with only 21 passengers, departed Limerick according to the passenger listing and included 117 passengers, as also reported by the Boston newspapers upon its arrival in June 1850.
Brig Lively: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... 3AKCH6-89N

The passage to North America was very perilous in the spring of 1850:
DESTRUCTION OF FOURTEEN VESSELS BY ICEBERGS IN THE ATLANTIC—UPWARDS OF ONE HUNDRED LIVES LOST.

The arrivals during the last few days from the Atlantic have brought sad intelligence respecting losses of a large number of vessels amidst the floating fields of icebergs in the western latitudes; and among the number, we regret to add, one was from one of the Irish ports with between eighty and to one hundred persons on board, every soul of whom is supposed to have gone down in the unfortunate vessel and perished. Great quantities of ice are generally looked for by the traders in those parts of the Atlantic Ocean about the months of April and May, the result of the breakup of the frost in the Arctic seas, and driven down to the southward by the force of the currents. The masses that have appeared this season exceed anything of the kind that has for years been met with. They have been immense. Fields of ice some hundreds of miles in extent, towering up in all manner of forms to a very great elevation, have swept the waters of the Atlantic; and there is too much reason to fear that the losses appended form a very few of the mishaps that have occurred. The ill-fated vessel, in which so many are believed to have perished was from Londonderry, bound to Quebec. . .

Weekly Freeman's Journal, Dublin, 22 June 1850
And in November 1850, another ship, the barque Edmond, out of Limerick was wrecked on the coast of Kilkee, as described in this excellent history by Sean Marrinan, on the Clare Library website:
https://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/cocla ... kilkee.htm


6 **********
An Eliza McNamara, age 18, arrived in Boston from the port of Galway on the barque Emmeline on 1 August 1850.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCH6-NSS

The advertisement in the Galway Vindicator read, "For the Flourishing City of Boston, To Sail on the 25th of May next, The Splendid First-Class Fast-Sailing Ship "Emmeline" . . . improved ventilating apparatus, new cooking ranges, and all the latest inventions . . . (Galway Vindicator, 11 May 1850). The Emmeline departure was likely delayed from its 25th of May scheduled departure by at least a week as the Limerick Chronicle noted its departure "last week" in its June 12th newspaper edition. The delay was likely due in part to the "Wanton Attack Upon a Prussian Seaman", "Fritz Schlutter, of the Barque Emmeline of Prussia, was on board his vessel on the morning of the 2d June instant, when three men came along side, one of whom got on board and stabbed him (Schlutter) with a knife. . . . John Crute, of the same Barque, said three men came to the ship, one insisted he should go aboard, as he had a friend there. Schlutter refused him permission. Prisoner (Nolan) freed his way, and stabbed Schlutter with a knife, the three men went away, prisoner was the man who stabbed Schlutter. The carpenter of the Amphitrite swore that he saw the men to the Emmeline, saw them return, and heard one say "I gave the beggar enough." Remanded to next Tuesday (Galway Mercury, and Connaught Weekly Advertiser, 8 June 1850).

For Eliza McNamara, even prior to departing on the Emmeline for Boston, there were dangers lurking at the Galway port, as at all other ports. She was unlikely traveling alone but was accompanied by a few friends or relatives.


7 **********
An Eliza McNamara, age 18, arrived in New York from Liverpool on the sailing ship St. Louis on 5 December 1850. She was traveling with a Thomas McNamara, age 15, and also an Allan McNamara, age 20. The St. Louis was a "packet ship" and thus meant to depart on its set schedule, the 26th of October, 1850. The ship was cleared for sailing on the 25th, and if departed on the 26th, the journey to New York would have taken about 40 days.
Index only: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDXY-3QB


Did Elizabeth McNamara Hornbeck of Wawarsing, New York arrive in America on one of the seven passenger ships listed above?

Sduddy
Posts: 1826
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:15 pm

Hi Jimbo

Thank you for that very interesting posting. Elizabeth Hornbeck in Wawarsing may well be one of those seven. And even if she is not, you have given us a great insight into the actual journey, as it would have been in 1850. This entailed a lot of research by you.

I was reminded, too, of the Eliza McNamara, who Sharon Carberry shows in a posting of a snippet from the 1850 NYC census, on page 2 of this thread. This Eliza is only 15, so I thought she might be Libby who was also only 15 in 1850, but I think Libby did not arrive in time for the census (I’m not sure when the census was carried out). This Eliza (in the census) must be kept in mind as a good candidate for Elizabeth Hornbeck: that snippet also shows Honora McNamara aged 60 and Ann Walker aged 23, both born in Ireland. Walker is not a common name in Co. Clare, but Griffith’s Valuation shows that there were Walkers in Tulla in 1856, so I think there’s a good possibility that Ann Walker came from Tulla, and maybe Honora McNamara and Eliza also. If Honora really was aged 60 in 1850, she can’t be the mother of Mary Madigan who was born 1841, but maybe a grandmother, or aunt, as Sharon Carberry suggests.

I agree that it is very likely that a child was born to John McNamara and Mary Kelly between 1825 and 1828. There seems to be another gap in the births to that couple about 1830; on this occasion there is no gap in the register, but if a child died at birth, or was stillborn, there would not have been a baptism, I suppose.

Looking at the last of the seven, Eliza McNamara, aged 18, I was interested to see that she was accompanied by a Thomas McNamara, aged 15. I think the “Allan’ McNamara, aged 20, might be Eileen, or Ellen, as Allan was not a name given to Irish children at that time (The “Alan” Neylon in the 1901 census is Flan Neylon – Flan, or Flannan was a name beloved by that family of Neylons).

The modes of travel used by emigrants have not been discussed on this forum, as far as I know. The question was asked some years ago in regard to emigrants going to Australia (I can’t find the query now), but nobody ventured a reply. Although records give the name of the ship an emigrant sailed on, we have no way of knowing how the emigrant arrived at the point of embarkation. One way of travelling to Dublin was by the boat (steamer), starting from some port on river Shannon (e.g. Killaloe) and then, from Athlone, by the Grand Canal, or by the train from Athlone railway station – see this piece by John Forbes written in the Autumn of 1852:
There is a curious old bridge of a great many arches (nineteen, I think,) crossing the river at the town [of Killaloe], and which forms a beautiful object in the landscape as we look down the river from the pier where the steamer stops, which is about a mile above it. Indeed, views in all directions from this spot, - of the town, the river, and the surrounding hills, are very fine, though the want of wood gives rather a character of coldness and sternness to the whole.
We found the steamer waiting for us, and the little pier thickly crowded with people waiting to go on board or to see their friend on board. The deck was, indeed, so crowded, that it was not an easy matter to get from one part of it to another: and the crowding and confusion were still further increased by the whole of the fore part of the vessel being occupied by cattle.
It was soon seen that a party of emigrants had come or were coming on board and were now taking leave of their friends with every token of the most passionate distress. With that utter unconsciousness and disregard of being the observed of all observers, which characterizes authentic sorrow, these warm-hearted and simple-minded people demeaned themselves entirely as if they had been shrouded in all the privacy of home, clinging to and kissing and embracing each other with the utmost ardour, calling out aloud, in broken tones, the endeared names of brother, sister, mother, sobbing and crying as if the very heart would burst, while the unheeded tears ran down from the red and swollen eyes literally in streams…. There were about twenty of these emigrants, all destined, in the first place, to Liverpool by way of Dublin. The majority of them were going to the United States, but several, particularly the young women, were bound for Australia. Every one was going out on funds supplied by their friends who had preceded them to the land of their exile …
Almost immediately after leaving Killaloe pier, the steamer enters on Lough Dearg, the largest [lake] in the whole tract of the Shannon, and one of the finest in Ireland … We arrived at Athlone about four o’clock, having been steaming up this magnificent river for seven hours … our fuel being only turf. An immense quantity of this must have been consumed, as, when we started, not only was the hold filled with it, but the deck was cumbered with it up to the top of the paddle-boxes; and when we reached Athlone it was nearly all gone.

I imagine that most emigrants began their journey by walking some miles, and maybe staying with a relative before continuing next day. There are now at least two walks in Ireland that promoters claim to have been emigrant trails. I don’t think there is any such trail in Co. Clare, but there’s one that goes from Co. Roscommon to Dublin, for instance, following the Royal Canal for most of the way: https://www.travelandleisure.com/attrac ... king-trail. Even as late as 1912, the girls and boys from Lahardane, Co. Mayo, who were destined to travel on the Titanic, set out by walking to the railway station in Castlebar (that is, if the T.V programme I watched is to be believed), a distance of about 14 miles.

The cost of travelling to the embarkation point must have added quite a bit to the cost of passage, and so, for the poorest people, emigration was not an option – unless they pooled their resources and sent just one member of the family to begin with.

The Famine Ships: The Irish Exodus to America 1846 - 51, by Edward Laxton (Bloomsbury, 1996) gives much interesting information, but nothing on the journey from home, barring a mention of “the arduous journey to the port,” and a paragraph on pages 9-10:
The year 1846, which marked the beginning of the Famine Emigration, saw the start of a dramatic change in the scene on Dublin’s quays. The Irish Quaterly Review would subsequently record this scene as follows:
"A procession fraught with the most striking and most melancholy interest, wending its painful and mournful way along the whole line of the river, to where the beautiful pile of the Custom House is distinguishable in the far distance, towering among the masts of the shipping….a long continuous procession … a mixed stream of men, women and children, with their humble baggage …"
In later years the Irish Quarterly Review stated that the procession, or queue, would stretch a mile and a half from the railway station to the Custom House, which today is still the most beautiful building in Dublin’s fair city.
Sheila

Sduddy
Posts: 1826
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:48 am

Hi Jimbo, again

I meant to add a bit about conversions to Protestantism, but forgot. I think there’s general agreement that, if some poor people really did become Protestants in order to get food, they generally returned to Catholicism at a later time. I looked at names and numbers of people in Co. Clare, who gave Church of Ireland and Church of England as their religion in the 1901 census (using the “More Search Options” key), and found no indication that any of them had been converts during the famine. Of the 1618 people who are Church of Ireland, only 746 give Co. Clare as their birthplace. Many of those 746 are the Clare-born children of parents who had come from elsewhere, and who had been posted to Co. Clare, e.g., those in Government positions, including the Constabulary. And many of the 746 are the members of landed gentry families and of Church of Ireland clergy.
I then confined my search to Tulla DED, and found only 10 people who were Church of Ireland and who were born in Co. Clare, and there was nobody among that 10 who could be thought to have converted during famine times. I am not doubting that some people did convert and think that I would have done so too, if my children were starving, but I think these people must have returned to Catholicism afterward, or emigrated.

Sheila

Jimbo
Posts: 591
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:43 am

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:44 am

Mr. Kenny [attorney for the defense]—What were they doing?

Mr. Keane [witness for the prosecution]—What were they doing? They were yelling, shouting, screeching, and roaring; they were crying out "Souper Souper", "drag out the Souper", "kill the Souper" (great laughter, and some cries of oh ! oh !)

The Limerick Reporter and Tipperary Vindicator, 27 June 1854
Hi Sheila, for those Catholic children who attended the "souper" schools in the mid-19th century, this would come at a great social cost and I'm not surprised that your research revealed no likely converts or their descendants in the 1901 census. The numbers were relatively small compared to the population, and I suspect given that their "conversion" was due to poverty that many would end up immigrating from Ireland. The above dialogue is an excerpt from the Ennis trials of those prosecuted for abusing souper missionaries in Ennis in June of 1854. The defense attorney, Michael Kenny of Freigh Castle, did an excellent job and, I reckon, somewhat turned the tables as far as who was at fault. There were three separate incidents in June 1854, and not sure of the final outcome of each; in one trial the jury could not agree upon a verdict and it was bound over to the next assizes. The genealogy website "findmypast" might have the final outcome in their petty session documents.

The wikipedia article on "Souperism" you provided was interesting, but rather bland compared to this local Ennis history. At the Clare library website, a search of "souper" surprisingly revealed only three results, one of which was from this very thread: the discussion on page 15 of Irish soldiers in the British army in India not having separate Catholic schools for their children. "Souperism" led to an interesting 10 page article "Around the Town of Ennis with Father Clancy" (source: Molua : Irisleabhar Cuallachta Ghriogóir Organ of the Association of St. Gregory 1945 and 1946) which describes "Cooke's Lane Hibernian School" on page 26 (the 1945 edition). This school was founded in 1806, and the short history discussed was mostly from the 1820's:
https://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/cocla ... _ennis.htm

The dialogue of the trial proceedings was too long to transcribe. However, the newspaper man from the Limerick Reporter did an excellent job of summarizing the trial, with only just a slight bias. His summary was still quite long, but interesting, so I've included the first few paragraphs below. Pity that the reporter was not named. He had a strong talent for describing the three accusers in the proceedings — probably even better than if a photo had been available.
ENNIS PETTY SESSIONS — Friday
THE SOUPERS AT WATERPARK — FAILURE OF THE PROSELYTISING MISSION

(From Our Reporter)

I arrived in Ennis about half-past eleven o'clock this morning. The town wore its usually sober appearance. The people quietly went about their business, and I judged that there must have been little truth in the reports of the "Souper" journals which represented the town to be in a state of insurrection against those people who call themselves "missionaries," whose chief object is to have themselves considered martyrs by a certain canting section of the community. The disposition of the people does not incline them to give the glory of martyrdom to the canting blasphemers of the "soup" crusade. They, it is true, have hooted them and called them "soupers," but they do not suppose that men who can engage in the work of bribing children from their faith by meal and stirabout are deserving of anything but utter contempt. The people of Ennis — men, women, and children, under the spiritual care of their respected and venerated pastor, the Very Rev. Dean Kenny, and that of his exemplary and pious curates, the Rev. Messrs. McMahon, Newport, and Kenny — are true to their ancient faith, and they regard with the utmost loathing the efforts of the "soupers" to damage the cause of true religion and charity. I often heard an excellent Catholic clergyman in the west of Ireland, a friend of mine, say, that if the "souper" funds were stopped "souper" "conversions" never would be heard of. I am fully disposed to adopt and endorse this opinion. It puts the question of proselytism in a nutshell. I am sure the Catholic public of Clare, Limerick, Galway, Tipperary, and of all the counties, cities, and towns of Ireland, and those liberal and enlightened Protestants who look with horror on the daring aggression that has been made on the religious rights of their Catholic fellow-countrymen, will be glad to learn that, notwithstanding the efforts of a staff of proselytisers, who have been settled in Ennis for twelve months past, they have only been able to induce two or three hungry children to go to their school, and that, no later than Friday last, one of those children presented himself before one of the Catholic curates of Ennis, asking for re-admission to the old fold. Such is the result of the "soup" or stirabout mission in this quarter. I would prefer giving it the name of the "stirabout" mission, for "stirabout," I believe, constitutes, with the "missionaries," the chief, if not the only, means of perversion. If they can force conviction on the mind by feeding the body, they do what was never heard of in any system of religious propagandism but that vile and scandalous one in which they are engaged. I should remark that it was distinctly stated by the Rev. Mr. Russell, a Protestant minister here, that a boy named Glynn attended his school; that he "got his breakfast;" (but he did not add it was stirabout): that he was taught the Bible, and that, after having attended school for a short time, he decamped from the society of the "soupers." The Rev. Mr. Russell is one of the parties who has charged boys with hooting and shouting at him as he was going out of the Protestant church of Ennis some time ago. He, and two other persons, named Gloster, a Bible-reader, and Lane, a schoolmaster, were the accusers today, of men and children, boys and girls, for calling them "soupers," and nothing more. I may here take the liberty of endeavoring to describe the appearance of these persons, to whom, on this occasion, this epithet has been applied. Mr. Russell is a fat, oily-looking gentleman, with a large amount of flesh under his chin; he sports an eye-glass, which hangs down from a neck enveloped in a very white "choker;" he wears a hat with a small leaf, jauntily, rather a little on one side of the head. His face is the blandest in the world. His nose, a promontory issuing out of a pair of plump cheeks and you would say, after a careful examination of his physique, that confidence, and the odium theologieum [Latin; theological hatred], were the prevailing traits of his character. He was examined, and he was the blandest of the bland; he bowed and smiled, and seemed to know the Bench, and the Bench seemed to know him. He was not eloquent, but he was earnestly common-place. And now with regard to Gloster. Of this genius I can say but little. He is rough in manner, uncouth in gesture, with deeply sunken eyes, and a complexion neither yellow nor fresh colour; I think I would be reporting the truth if I stated that on some occasion gunpowder exploded, and left in his face sundry dimples like those in the face of Venus. He is not bulky, nor does he smile, but he is cross and crotchety; and no doubt an able auxiliary to the mission. Next and lastly comes Mr. Lane. This "missionary" is from Cong, in the county of Mayo, according to his own statement; and is now a schoolmaster connected with the "souper" crusade movement. He has a "hard" face, is nervous, and according to my impression, is a character who would mount a rostrum, and with his eyes turned up or turned down, as the case of necessity might be, hold forth in the language, but not with the vehemence of Trash Gregg *, and say that he was moved by the spirit of the Lord in his undertakings.

Having thus described the principal actors in this seriocomic drama, let me say a word about the scene in which they detailed their sufferings, and of the nature of the case which has excited public interest and attention in this quarter.

On the cause of "the riots," as they have been termed, let me say first — it appears, as far as I have been able to ascertain on the most unquestionable authority, that, for some time past, the most audacious yet unsuccessful attempts have been made in Ennis by the proselytising party to win over Catholic children to the fold of "Jumperism," by bribes of food, &c. These attempts, wicked and persevering as they were, had been accompanied with the vilest blasphemies against and misrepresentation of, the religion of Catholics, who keenly felt the insult thus cast upon them. This system of lying was persevered in; calumnies against doctrines which Catholics hold in the greatest reverence were uttered in the pulpit of the Established place of worship. These calumnies were repeated in the press. Catholics were called idolators. They were denounced as unfit to enjoy civil or religious liberty, and should not be at all surprised if it was said that the exercise of their religion should be totally suppressed. Under the insults, to which I have referred, the Catholics of Ennis remained patient. They did not injure any of their maligners, but, seeing the malignity of their enemies carried to a pitch which was almost beyond endurance, they on two or three occasions — the 4th, 12th, and 18th of June — manifested their disapprobation of the proselytisers, by shouting at Waterpark — "Souper, Souper," by whistling and clapping of hands. And for the great crime of clapping his hands at Waterpark, a boy named Hogan has been sent for trial at the assizes on a charge of riot ! I am not a lawyer, but I question whether any Grand Jury in the country would find a bill of indictment against a boy for clapping his hands amid a crowd of people, who, it was sworn, did no injury to the police or magistrates and nothing to the "Soupers," but call them by that name. In fact, to use the language of the gentleman who opened the case, they were only "annoyed on their passage from their place of worship to their homes," and we all know that a riot is something more than "annoyance."

. . . [the court proceedings - very long full page] . . .

Limerick Reporter and Tipperary Vindicator, Tuesday, 27 June 1854
* Dictionary of Irish Biography for the Rev. Tresham "Trash'em" D. Gregg:
https://www.dib.ie/biography/gregg-tresham-dames-a3620

The Limerick Reporter in several instances emphasized that the "souper" children were only given "stirabout". I had never heard of the term so looked up the definition: "a porridge of Irish origin consisting of oatmeal or cornmeal boiled in water or milk and stirred" (Merriam Webster). I often have oatmeal for breakfast, and so stirabout appeared to me a reasonable breakfast for an Irish child in the 1850's. One of the top search results in googling the term was a recipe by Nigella Lawson who described the "traditional Irish dish" as "a perfectly healthy breakfast". Did the newspaper man from the Limerick Reporter expect the children to be fed a full Irish breakfast? But, after much thought, I now reckon it was a clever play on words. In American English, a "stirrer" is a small implement, typically of wood or plastic, to stir your coffee after adding cream or sugar. But in British and Australian English slang, a "stirrer" is a "a person who intentionally causes trouble between other people" (Cambridge dictionary). The missionaries were feeding the souper children a breakfast of "stirabout" because they were "stirrers" on a "stirabout mission". The Catholic and Protestant populations of Ennis appear to have gotten along perfectly fine until the souper missionaries came along to stir up trouble.

Sheila, with regards to your comment that John McNamara and Mary Kelly of Glandree had no children about 1830, they, in fact, had a son named John baptized on 11 July 1830; sponsors Martin O'Dea, Honora Linane. With both the baptized child and father having the same name, the Tulla priest appears to have simply left the first name of the father as blank in the baptism register for some reason. I discovered this entry by using the Tulla baptism register that you sorted by mother's name. This was a discovery from May 2018 (page 2) that did not get reflected in the page 1 chart of Thomas McNamara families, but did so in all subsequent family trees for John McNamara and Mary Kelly of Glandree.

Sduddy
Posts: 1826
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:43 am

Hi Jimbo

Thank you for that interesting posting. Stirabout is a perfectly good breakfast, but not if it is very watery. Soup, also, can be perfectly good, or can be very watery indeed.

Yes, I was clutching at straws when I put forward the possibility that some of the children of John McNamara and Mary Kelly were not baptised owing to (temporary) conversion of the parents to Protestantism. Your theory that a child was born in 1832 is much more likely; that she was called Elizabeth might seem “agenda driven,” but certainly fits with Elizabeth in Wawarsing.

Thank you for reminding me about John who was born in 1830. I wonder what happened to John and to his brothers James (b. 1828) and Thomas (b. 1832, who might be the Civil War soldier), and to his sisters Bridget (b. 1834) and Johanna (b. 1835). And whatever happened to the children of John McNamara and Bridget Coffey: Mary (b. 1840, who might be Mary later Mrs. Madigan); Anne (b. 1843); Pat (b. 1845) and Michael (b. 1846)? If any of these remained in the locality, and if any of them married after 1864 – surely one or two would have married after that date – there is no marriage record to show that they did remain. At least, I’ve found none. There is one mention of a Johnny Mack from Glendree in the Feakle Lower baptisms, as a putative father. I can't find the record of the birth of that child (Michael, baptised 25 Jun 1870) and even if I could it would not tell me if Johnny's father was also called John.

I remember searching familysearch records – death records and marriage records that gave the names of parents – and not having much success with the McNamaras. But familysearch has changed format and I’m not longer able to use it to find marriages and deaths in the way that I used to. It’s clear that you are having no difficulty with finding all sorts of records – ships manifests, etc.

Sheila

Jimbo
Posts: 591
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:30 am

Hi Sheila,

Yes, the oatmeal I have for breakfast is not very watery at all. And topped with berries, which are somehow always in season, my breakfast would not have much in common with the Irish stirabout that was fed to the souper children. If stirabout of the 19th century were to be described as "a perfectly healthy breakfast", this might smack of "let them eat cake". Especially so if spoken in a posh English accent. However, I was mistaken, the stirabout recipe which I attributed to Nigella Lawson, was actually a "community recipe" submitted from Traditional Irish Cookery by Carmel Kavenagh and according to the website "not tested or verified by Nigella":
https://www.nigella.com/recipes/members ... -stirabout

Sheila, I doubt very much that Nigella has ever fed Irish stirabout to her children for breakfast. If you can track down the episode of "Who Do You Think You Are" with Nigella Lawson, she does have an interesting family connection to Lyons Tea, a popular tea brand in Ireland.

And I had previously come across "stirabout" in searching for the missing Civil War soldier Thomas McNamara of Glandree, but had forgotten completely about this minor detail. Stirabout was mentioned in the trial of four Glandree men for assaulting Margaret Linnane in 1847. Her son, John Linnane, was a trial witness:
John Linnane, son of the preceding witness, a lad of about 15 years of age, but who did not appear to be more than ten corroborated his mother in every particular. He identified Martin M'Evoy, and Andrew M'Namara.

Cross-examined—Was with the police ever since—would rather be in his own cabin if he were let alone, though we get bread and tea with the police, and only get stirabout and yellow meal at home; his mother was neither for or against the landlord or his friends; he never spoke on the subject of this attack to the police; he never spoke to his mother on the subject; he did not tell her he knew two of them;; she did not ask him; she sent him for the police and be then told her he knew two of them himself.

The Limerick Reporter, 16 July 1847 (excerpt, see full article on page 29)
Margaret Linnane, a very poor woman, did not pay rent to her "landlord" McDowell so as to feed her children "stirabout and yellow meal" and save them from starvation. Fascinating that it was the act of feeding stirabout to a poor child, instead of paying her rent, that led directly to four Glandree convicts being sent to Bermuda on the convict ship Medway in 1847. Stirabout does not appear to have been "a perfectly healthy breakfast" since her son John was 15 years old but only looked to be ten. The defense attorney in cross-examining John Linnane was suggesting perhaps that his testimony identifying Martin McEvoy and Andrew Sheedy McNamara was being purchased by the police through "bread and tea".

There is a slight possibility that Andrew Sheedy McNamara convicted in 1847 and sent to Bermuda was the brother of Elizabeth McNmara Hornbeck of Wawarsing. Andrew McNamara, alias Sheedy, of Glandree was age 22 per the Richmond Prison Register of 1847; so would have been born in the period of the missing baptism pages of March 1822 through August 1825 in the Tulla parish baptism register. John McNamara and Mary Kelly were one of four Glandree families considered as possible parents to Andrew McNamara, but there was no evidence of John McNamara or any of his children having been a "Sheedy McNamara". Plus, there are better options for Andrew's parents, such as Patrick Sheedy McNamara and Margaret Doyle as well as Michael McNamara and Bridget McNamara. See discussion on page 29.

Whether or not Elizabeth McNamara Hornbeck was a sibling to the convict Andrew Sheedy McNamara, she definitely knew of the four Glandree men sent on the Medway to Bermuda in 1847. Amazing to think that someone living in Wawarsing, New York, from about 1850 through to 1910 was fully aware of these events from 1847. Also, I reckon, living at the time of the Irish 1901 census there would have been several Glandree residents who had firsthand knowledge of the four Glandree men sent to Bermuda on the Medway. Fewer by the 1911 Irish census. By mid-20th century, there may have been a few Glandree residents that perhaps had second-hand knowledge of these events from stories told by elderly family members or neighbors. But I suspect by today those with second-hand knowledge would surely have all passed away many years ago. Did they pass the story on to the next generation?

Sheila, thank you for your feedback on the various Eliza McNamara's who arrived in America about 1850. I've researched further the likelihood of whether or not any of these immigrants to New York and Boston could be the Elizabeth McNamara Hornbeck of Wawarsing, the sister of the missing Civil War soldier Thomas McNanama of Glandree. In reverse order:

7 **********
Sheila, I agree that the "Allan", who along with a "Thomas" appeared to be traveling with the "Eliza McNamara" on the St. Louis which arrived in New York on 5 December 1850, would be a very odd Irish name. So I double checked the passenger listing, and it was clearly written "Allan" — see below. He is a male, so the "Ellen" theory would require two mistakes on the passenger listing. In double-checking I discovered that, sadly, the 15 year old Thomas McNamara never even got so far that they could change his name to "Mack"; in the column to the far right was written "dead":

St Louis passenger listing arriving in NY on 5 Dec 1850 (ancestry website).jpg
St Louis passenger listing arriving in NY on 5 Dec 1850 (ancestry website).jpg (32.67 KiB) Viewed 6875 times

Thomas McNamara was one of three passengers who died in the Atlantic crossing including David Evans, a 4 month old Welsh boy; and a 34 year old Irishman by the name "Allan Brosnehan" (sp? on surname):

St Louis passenger listing arriving in NY on 5 Dec 1850 (ancestry).jpg
St Louis passenger listing arriving in NY on 5 Dec 1850 (ancestry).jpg (14.55 KiB) Viewed 6818 times

Another Allan? "Allan" was marked as "female" and then "male" or perhaps the other way around. Also, on board was an "Allen Reynolds" (age 30), "Allan Fagan" (age 18), "Allan Farrell" (age 45), "Allan Brennan" (age 30), "Allen Sullivan" (age 22), "Allan Gorney" sp? (age 20), "Allan Walsh" (age 17), "Allan Brennan" (age 26) — all males born in Ireland. There were two other Englishmen named "Allen" as well. There was not one single female named "Ellen" among the 380 or so passengers. Sheila, I agree with your conclusion that "Allan McNamara" was actually "Ellen McNamara" and I reckon this to be the case for the other eight "males" born in Ireland and reported as "Allan". The confusion over whether "Allan Brosnehan" who died was male or female supports this theory. Plus, "Allan McNamara" does not exist as a name in the United States until the 20th century. Same with "Allan Brennan". I wonder if the root cause of the error was how the Irish pronounce "Ellen"? It would also be interesting to know the process flow on how the passenger listings in the mid 19th century were created.

Most likely, Eliza McNamara (age 18) and Thomas McNamara (age 15) were siblings. If so, this Eliza could not be the Eliza Hornbeck of Wawarsing who had a brother Thomas McNamara missing from the American Civil War. They could be cousins, of course, but I reckon the Eliza McNamara who arrived on the St. Louis in 1850 has very long odds to be Elizabeth Hornbeck of Wawarsing.


4 **********
6 **********
8 ********** NEW

Two Irish women named Eliza McNamara arrived in Boston in 1850 from the port of Galway: (#4) Eliza McNamara, age 20, arrived on the barque Charlotte on 16 May 1850, (#6) Eliza McNamara, age 18, arrived on the barque Emmeline on 1 August 1850.

Eliza #8: And a newly discovered Eliza Mack, age 18, departed Liverpool on the American packet ship Squantum arriving in Boston on 22 October 1850:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCH6-G28

An Eliza Mack, age 20, born in Ireland, was living in the 1st Ward of Boston with the family of James Manning Badger in the 1850 census. Her occupation was not reported, but she was likely their domestic servant.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MDSC-SBC

The 1850 census was as of 1 June 1850, but the Badger household in the 1st Ward of Boston was enumerated on 14 September 1850. The Eliza McNamara who arrived on the Charlotte on 16 May 1850 would likely have been in high demand as a domestic servant, and thus quite possibly have been employed by the Badger family by the 1st of June 1850. Of course, Elizabeth could have been employed in July or August of 1850 and the census enumerator who came around in September still may have included her in the census. It could have even been possible for the Eliza McNamara who arrived on the Emmeline on 1 August 1850 to be recorded in the 1850 census. But given her census age of 20, and that I could only find one Eliza McNamara in Boston, the odds are better that Eliza Mack of the 1st Ward Boston arrived on the Charlotte on 16 May 1850.

In the 1850's, many Eliza McNamara's got married in Massachusetts, with details following below. Massachusetts marriage records include name of father and birthplace, but it would be very difficult to match the marriage record with a passenger listing for each Eliza. However, I've come to the conclusion that those Eliza McNamara's who arrived in Boston in 1850, likely remained in Massachusetts and did not go to Wawarsing, New York which is located 200 miles to the south west of Boston, Massachusetts. New York City is only about 90 miles south of Wawarsing, and most of the route would be straight north on the Hudson River which eventually links to the Erie Canal. So there would have been plenty of transportation options in the 1850's for new arrivals to New York City to travel up the Hudson Valley to Wawarsing.

Again, I suspect that the three Eliza McNamara's, who arrived in Boston in 1850, remained in Massachusetts and likely married. Of course, they are still a possibility to become Elizabeth Hornbeck of Wawarsing, but I reckon at very long odds. Here is the information on those who married in Massachusetts and obviously have no chance to be Elizabeth McNamara Hornbeck of Wawarsing:

(a) An Eliza McNamara, "age 20", born in "Clare County, Ireland", daughter of Timothy McNamara, married Timothy Regan, age 28, born in "Cloon, Clare, Ireland", son of Malachi Regan, on 1 January 1852 in Northampton, Massachusetts.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q28L-3LRB

Eliza McNamara and Timothy "Ryan" had a son John "Ryan" on 30 September 1853 in Hatfield, Hampshire county, Massachusetts. "Ryan" is an easy transcription error for "Regan" (by both ancestry and Family Search), but the surname is clearly "Regan". John Regan is #18 on the birth listing, father Timothy Regan was reported as a "laborer", both parents were born in County Clare:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1463156

By the 1855 census, Eliza Regan is back to her maiden name, Eliza McNamara, age 24, and living with her son, John Regan, age 3, and quite a few other Irish people in Williamsburg, Hampshire county, Massachusetts. This state census does not report if Eliza was a widow, so not sure what happened to her husband Timothy Regan.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQW5-ZKZ

Also living in Williamsburg in the 1855 census was a 30 year old Irish born Michael Herrin, an iron moulder, with four children including a 6 month old. Michael appears to be a widower since his wife was not reported.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQW5-C64

By the 1860 census, Eliza McNamara appears to have gotten remarried to the above Michael O'Hearn (sometimes spelt "Herrin" or "Ahearn"), the widower living in Williamsburg with four young children. John Regan (age 12) was living with the Michael Herrin family in the 1865 census. They were living less than 15 miles from Emily Dickinson in Amherst. Eliza McNamara Ahearn, wife of Michael, born in Ireland, age 75 (≈ 1823), died in Northampton, Massachusetts on 21 December 1898; father reported as Timothy McNamara, mother Hannah Fitzpatrick (MA death records, 1841 - 1915).

(b) An Eliza Mack, age 24, daughter of Simon Mack, was married to Dennis O'Neal, age 22, son of Michael O'Neal, on 22 January 1852 in Warren, Massachusetts. Their place of birth both appear to be written as "old Ireland".
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q29P-ZB73

(c) An Elizabeth McNamara, age 25, daughter of Patrick McNamara, was married to John Conway, age 40, son of Andrew Conway, on 2 February 1857 in Chelsea, Suffolk county, Massachusetts. Both born in Ireland, but no specific county was given:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2ZR-YSC9

(d) An Elizabeth McNamara, age 30, daughter of James and Elizabeth McNamara, was married to Patrick Cunningham, age 36, son of Thomas and Mary Cunningham, on 8 October 1857 in Lowell, Massachusetts, It was the second marriage for Patrick Cunningham, born in Ireland, a widow with five children. First marriage for Eliza McNamara, and her birthplace was left blank (but from later census reports she was born in Ireland).
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NW13-VYM
They had one daughter together, Catherine; the Cunningham family was living in Lowell in the 1860 census (youngest children on page 71): https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MZCH-FJK

When Elizabeth McNamara Cunningham, widow of Patrick Cunningham, age 87, died in 1902, her parents were reported as Denis McNamara and Catherine Tyrell on the death record. Different parents from the marriage record, but I reckon the informant didn't know the names of his step-mother's parents, and faced with the question, simply made up names instead of saying "I don't know".
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/189 ... cunningham


5 **********
An Eliza McNamara, age 21, arrived in New York from Limerick on the sailing ship Hopewell on 5 July 1850. She appears to have been traveling with a Thomas McNamara, age 27. It is not clear if they were married or siblings or cousins etc.

The 1850 census was the population as of 1 June 1850, but the census enumerators actually did their count in the following months. In my view, the census takers in 1850 didn't spend a lot of time with new immigrants (or anyone) trying to ascertain where they were living on the 1st of June and simply reported who was living at the location at the time of their census visit.

(a) Brooklyn: Thomas McNamara (age 30) and Elizabeth McNamara (age 22) living in Brooklyn, New York, sharing their household with Owen "McAlea" (age 25) and Ann "McAlea" (age 26). All born in Ireland. The 1850 census does not report marital status, so not clear if the McNamara's were married or single (and thus possibly siblings).
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MCYG-RTB
The above census was taken in Brooklyn on 7 October 1850 and is a good match for the Thomas and Eliza McNamara who arrived on the Hopewell on 5 July 1850.

(b) Sixth Ward of New York City: Thomas McNamara (age 21) and Elizabeth McNamara (age 19), both born in Ireland, living in the 6th Ward of New York City. Thomas McNamara is a shoemaker.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MCTC-GMR
This census was taken on the 17 July 1850. Perhaps unlikely to be the McNamara's who arrived on the Hopewell on 5 July 1850. Plus, their ages on the Hopewell passenger listing and 1850 census are off considerably. Regardless, they likely had not been in the Sixth Ward for too long given their young age, and might well have been from County Clare if not from Glandree. Mary McNamara, the sister of the missing Thomas McNamara of Glandree, married a shoemaker in Tulla prior to moving to Barnsley, Yorkshire.


#1 Betsey, #2 Eliza, #3 Libby McNamara, To Be Continued

Sduddy
Posts: 1826
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:36 am

Hi Jimbo

I am looking forward to the continuation of your research into 8 immigrants called Eliza/Betsy/Libby McNamara, who arrived in America about 1850. No one can say that you did not turn every stone in the search for Elizabeth McNamara (before she became Elizabeth Hornbeck).

I am interrupting your flow of thought here just to say that, although there were no Allan McNamaras at that time, the name Allan / Alan was used in Ireland, especially in the North and East of the country. But I do think it is very interesting that there were not one single female named Ellen among the 380 or so passengers arriving in NY on 5 Dec 1850 on the St Louis, and I do suspect that “Ellen” must have sounded like “Allan” (Thanks for checking all those names!).

Just one other point (though I know you are well aware of it) is that Elizabeth, along with other members of her family, may have come south from Canada, rather than north from New York, or west from Boston.

In regard to memories of the Great Famine, you ask if the generation who lived through the famine, many of whom were still alive in 1901, passed on the story of the four Glendree men who were transported to Bermuda. The general belief is that people did not speak very much of their memories of the famine, and it is thought that they deliberately forgot it and covered it over with the words “the bad times” (an drochshaol), and “moved on,” as we say now. However, Cathal Póirtéir, in his book, Famine Echoes – Folk Memories of the Great Irish Famine: An Oral History of Ireland’s Greatest Tragedy, shows that there were many memories passed down to the next generation, especially in the form of contributions to the National Schools Collection. I borrowed the book from the library some years ago and I must be suffering from the same wilful amnesia, as I can’t remember any of the stories told in it; I can only recall an expression that was used jocosely for many years after the famine. To understand it, the reader must know that the Government provided employment at Public Works during the famine, and at later times of special hardship, and that one of the regulations was that, if a person was late for work, he/she lost a quarter of their pay for that day. It seems some poor man complained to his neighbours that he had been quartered five times, and to be “quartered five times” was for long afterwards used to describe a hard day (jokingly).

Sheila

Jimbo
Posts: 591
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:28 pm

Hi Sheila,

Thanks for that feedback. While the four Glandree men were both convicted and sent on the Medway to Bermuda in 1847 during the period of the Great Famine, their story was not really a famine story. It would be inconceivable to me that Margaret Clanchy McNamara (≈1798 - 1890) would not tell the story of her son-in-law, Thomas McMahon, wrongly convicted by the Crown and sent to Bermuda, to her many grandchildren. Storytelling was the main form of entertainment during this time period. Plus, there were the two children of Thomas McMahon who were left behind in County Clare. I reckon it would be very difficult to ignore the story of the four Glandree men sent to Bermuda.

One thing to consider is how their story might be told. Bermuda is in the Atlantic Ocean and not the West Indies / Caribbean. However, during the days of the British Empire, the British classified all their colonies in this region as the "British West Indies" and this included Bermuda. So when searching for evidence that the story of the four Glandree men sent to Bermuda was passed down through storytelling, the location might well have been reported as the "West Indies" and not "Bermuda".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_West_Indies

Denis Cooney and James Cooney, the nephews of Thomas McMahon, who were also convicted by the Crown and spent ten years in prison from 1890 to 1900, would surely have been told the story by their grandmother Margaret Clanchy McNamara (≈1798 - 1890) of the four Glandree men sent to Bermuda. James Cooney, a bachelor, died in Glandree on 9 November 1939, at the age of 74 years. His elder brother Denis Cooney, married, died in Glandree just two months later on 8 January 1940, at the age of 76 years. The informant was his youngest daughter Lena Cooney who was born on 19 December 1913; I reckon her parents Denis Cooney and Catherine McNamara were second cousins.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 264478.pdf

During the 1930's, when both Denis Cooney (1863 - 1940) and James Cooney (1865 - 1939) were in their late sixties and early seventies, what stories would have been passed down to their children or nephews/nieces, who were the great grandchildren of Margaret Clanchy McNamara (≈1798 - 1890)?

• The 1847 conviction of four Glandree men (Andrew Sheedy McNamara, Thomas McMahon, Martin McEvoy, and Matt Collins) who were sent on the Medway to Bermuda (see page 29). Thomas McMahon, I reckon with 100% certainty, was the son-in-law of Margaret Clanchy McNamara; the identity of this Andrew Sheedy McNamara, a laborer, is a mystery.

• The 1882 imprisonment of Andrew Sheedy McNamara for protesting the arrest of Bridget McCormack, of the Ladies Land League (see page 16). This Andrew Sheedy McNamara was the son of Margaret Clanchy McNamara. His death between 1901 and 1911 remains a mystery.

• The 1890 arrest and decade long imprisonment of five Glandree men (the brothers Denis and James Cooney, John Hurst, Martin Molony, and Cornelius Howard) for firing into the house of a farmer named Donnellan, at Thome, Tulla (see pages 10 and 29). Denis Cooney, imprisoned at Maryborough Prison (now Portlaoise Prison), and James Cooney, imprisoned at Mountjoy Prison, were the grandchildren of Margaret Clanchy McNamara.

Fairly likely that the children of Denis Cooney knew of their father and uncle's imprisonment, but not so sure the earlier stories would have been passed on to further generations due to a decline in storytelling in Ireland. Patricia Lysaght explains in The Banshee how the decline in folk beliefs and storytelling among the modern Irish people is attributable to a greater education as well as other factors:
Of more importance [than education] is the fact that increased literacy and greater availability of reading material — books, newspapers and magazines — gradually exposed larger and larger sectors of the population to ideas which would make them question their old values and beliefs. Time spent reading also encroached upon the oral culture which had been part and parcel of life. Storytelling sessions, once the main form of entertainment — at least in the country — became more scarce. The strange appearances and strange noises that were noticed might still frighten people but the experiences would more often stay at the omen-stage . . .

The newspapers were only the first among the media that gradually undermined the oral culture which was the growing ground for the death messenger [Banshee] traditions as well as other folk traditions. They were to be followed by the radio. Broadcasting started in Ireland in 1926 and in the nineteen fifties radios would have been found in most homes even among less well-off people and in rural areas. At the same time other types of entertainment, such as the cinema, began to fill a greater part of people's spare time. The heaviest blow to storytelling and conversation was struck by television from 1961 onwards.

Newspapers, radio and television not only meant talking had to stop when people were reading, listening and watching, and gave people new interests and ideas, but they also provided new topics for discussion. The time spent in conversation about local topics, such as the old traditional beliefs, was limited even more. The news media also had the effect that people spent more of their time, especially at night, at home. The old custom of visiting the neighbors at night — the rambling, bothántaíocht, scoraíocht etc, — was abandoned. It was exactly in this setting that the talk would so often turn to supernatural experiences and where those who had them were given opportunities to convince those who were young and weak in their faith.

The Banshee, Chapter 13, Continuity and Change, Patricia Lysaght, 1996 second edition (Roberts Rinehart Publishers)
Patricia Lysaght went on to state that electrification to the whole of Ireland in the late 1950's and mid-1960's led to the further decline in the belief in the Banshee. "It is generally said the ghosts and fairies disappeared when electricity was introduced. . ." Instead of the Banshee to inform the neighbors and relatives of a death, they could be telephoned. The Banshee was first published in 1986, second edition in 1996, and since that time I reckon the internet would have led to a further decline in oral storytelling. And with the popularity of smartphones, people are less likely to even have a conversation let alone tell a long story about haunting ghosts. However, it is not all doom and gloom as far as the storytelling tradition. In fact, the ongoing search for the missing Civil War soldier Thomas McNamara of Glandree would not be possible without the internet.

Thomas McNamara's last known sighting was by his sister Elizabeth McNamara Hornbeck at Wawarsing, New York when he was on furlough. Did Elizabeth McNamara of Wawarsing, New York arrive in America about 1850 on one of the eight passenger ships listed in the last several postings?

#1 Betsey, #2 Eliza, #3 Libby McNamara, To Be Continued

Sduddy
Posts: 1826
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:59 am

Hi Jimbo,

Yes, not every story from the 1840s is a Famine story. From the vantage point of 175 years later, the transportation of the 4 men to Bermuda seems the most dramatic event of all time in Glendree, and you have done well to draw attention to it. But, in the midst of the usual disasters – children falling ill and dying, boys enlisting in the army and never seen again, another failed harvest - would the story have stood out as so dramatic at that time? Also I’m wondering if the people in Glendree, in 1847, ever discovered that the men were languishing in Bermuda*, rather than making some kind of life for themselves in New South Wales, or Van Diemen’s Land. Thomas McMahon was returned to Spike Island in 1854 due to illness, but did he make contact with anyone in Glendree? – in which case, yes, they would know all about Bermuda.

It is very tempting to create scenario around various aspects of the story, which is quite dramatic enough as it is, even when pared down to the bare bones of what is stated in the records. I am wary of putting flesh on those bones. We must accept that the page in the baptismal register that would have give us the parents of Andrew McNamara is missing, and that we can never know for sure who his parents were. I’ve gone back to page 29 and read again what you’ve written about Thomas McMahon. I agree that Thomas McMahon must have had some useful connections (written references testifying to his character were provided at his trial), but I think he was called a farmer simply because he was head of his own household. I’ve noticed that in the census records (1901and 1911), only one person in the household is called “Farmer” – all the others are called Farmer’s sons, or Labourers. When a son has been given the farm, he is called “Farmer” and his father is called “Retired Farmer”, or “Labourer”. In the 1841 census, the occupation of “Farmer’s son” was given as Labourer**. So I think Andrew McNamara may well be the son of a farmer too. But that is a very minor point.

Now I may be wrong in this, but I think a lot of the stories told in the long evenings in the winter were a form of escapism – a bit like television in our own time; many stories were about mythical beings accomplishing impossible feats; stories about sad family events would not have been very popular, I think, especially among the children. In my own case, I must admit, the “talking and tracing,” that adults engaged in, went over my head completely.

Jimbo, I got a slight shock when I read the words, “Denis Cooney and James Cooney, the nephews of Thomas McMahon…” Yes, I do believe that it is highly likely that Thomas McMahon, who was arrested in 1847, is the Thomas McMahon you found in the Tulla marriage records (1st September 1843: Thomas McMahon, Feakle, to Bridget McNamara, Tulla; witnesses Dennis Hogan and Andrew McNamara). And I do believe that parents were often witnesses at marriages and sponsors at the baptisms of their grandchildren. And I do believe that the record of the baptism of the second child, showing that Peg Clanchy was a sponsor, indicates that Bridget (the mother of the child) was either related to Margaret Clancy or a neighbour of hers. And I do think it would have been quite unusual if Andrew and Margaret had not called one of their daughters Bridget. But, nevertheless, and with all of that, I must say that you are taking a big leap when you decide that Bridget is a daughter of Andrew McNamara and Margaret Clanchy. It is not at all sure that she was.

Jimbo, you mention The Banshee, by Patricia Lysaght, again, and I am reminded that I meant to say that the Banshee is notably absent in song, with the exception of “Gortnamona”, one of Percy French’s compositions. It is usually sung quite slowly (example: Brendan O’Dowda), but Slim Whitman takes it at a nice trot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcbuVtSUK84

Sheila

*I think that Bermuda was a regular stopping-off point when ships going to Australia sailed south-west before sailing south-east. It is a long time since I read Jail Journal, by John Mitchell, but I remember that he was in a hulk in Bermuda for some months before proceeding to Van Diemen’s Land. He was classified as a gentleman, so was treated differently from the other convicts. He wasn’t shackled, beaten, or made do the work the other convicts were made to do. But, through the publication of his diary, the (reading) public became aware of many aspects of life aboard a prison hulk.

** In The Modernisation of Irish Society 1848-1918, (p 2), Joseph Lee says
The enumeration of many farmers’ children as labourers in the census of 1841 complicates calculation of the precise number of landless labourers, but even a rough estimate shows that the famine initiated a transformation in rural social structure.

Sduddy
Posts: 1826
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:57 am

Hi Jimbo

I dug out my ancient Jail Journal, blew off the dust and still sneezing. John Mitchell exhibits many of the prejudices of his age and was quite a snob as well. He decries the British Government’s treating him differently (because he is a gentleman), but, at the same time, speaks disdainfully of the convicts. He shudders at the thought that he might be buried in the convicts’ cemetery.
Most of his journal, during his time on board the Dromedary, in Bermuda, is taken up with commentary on political developments, commentary on the books he is reading, and a prolonged dialogue / discussion with himself. There is not at all as much on the other convicts as I expected, but then I found this interesting piece, which shows that the four men from Glendree might have written home:
About two months before my arrival here [20 Jun 1848], came out a great shipload of Irish – the harvest of the famine special commission – from twelve years of age up to sixty. They were all about three-quarters starved, and so miserably reduced by hunger and hardship, that they have been dying off by dysentery. As to the behaviour of these poor creatures, I learn from the commander [*] that they have no vice in them, are neither turbulent nor dishonest, nor give any trouble at all. “But,” adds the commander, “they will soon be as finished ruffians as the rest.” No doubt they will, poor fellows. He informs me that they were astonished, at first, at the luxuries provided for them – fresh beef three days in the week, and pork the other days, pea-soup, tea, excellent loaf-bread – things they had never seen before, except in shops, and which they no more knew how to use than Christophero Sly. Then they have liberty to write home as often as they like; and when they tell their half-starved friends how well a felon is fed, what can be more natural than that famished honesty should be tempted to put itself in the way of being sent to so plentiful a country! (Chapter VII).
* Mitchell depended on the Commander for much of his information. Maybe not all of it was true.

Sheila

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