Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

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smcarberry
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by smcarberry » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:56 am

I am "a day late and a dollar short" with this info, but this thread does have digressions into poetry, so please accept this background on the surname Hinchy. This family is related to mine, as a Carberry married a Tracy of East Clare whose mother was a Hinchy. I have kept notes and have seen the name fairly widely spread around Clare and very spread around various continents as Disapora.

SMC [
Hinchy, Thos of Bklyn & CLA.JPG
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attachment=1]Henchy & Mack, Lower Feakle RC 1860s,70s.JPG[/attachment]
Hinchy and Hennessy, by McLysaght.JPG
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Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:02 am

Hi Sharon

Thanks for that information on Hennessy/Hinchy. It had occurred to me that they might be the same name, but I was never sure of it. Yes, this thread has become a bit of a mixed bag, and almost anything, whether in prose, poetry, or song will find a home in it. But it’s a pity to hide that pearl of information, on “Feather” Henchy and his family and the origins of the name Henchy, in such a mixed bag. I think it deserves it’s own thread. I myself once created a thread just to show that Onny was short for Honor – and, even though that information did not create a stir, I'm still satisfied that it got its own place on the Forum. I also feel that the contribution you made on the three Hawkins brothers deserves its own thread and I’ve decided to start one now. It may, some day, be of interest to their descendants.
The subject of surnames and their variants is always interesting and discoveries are helpful to researchers. For instance, the name Kerwick, above, according to Lysaght, is a variant Kirby, or maybe the other way around. Lysaght does not explain this shift from Kerwick to Kirby, but I see that the Kerwicks, who came with the Normans to England, originally lived at Kirkby in Furness – maybe a branch of the family came to be called Kirby: https://www.houseofnames.com/kerwick-family-crest. But I think the Kerwicks in Tulla may have come by their name in another way, which Brian O Dalaigh explains very neatly in his article on Brian Merriman, "Poet of a Single Poem’, Brian Merriman, (c1749-1805)" in County Clare Studies, ed Ciaran O Murchadha, Clare Archaeological and Historical Society, 2000. O Dalaigh explains (p 106) that the anglicization of names occurred, in the 17th and 18th century, in three main ways:
(1) by dropping the O or Mac and rendering the name phonetically in English, eg. MacMathghamhna becomes McMahon, Mac Consaidin becomes Considine.
(2) by a process of pseudo-translation into English, eg. O Bigin becomes Little or Littleton, O hUaithnin becomes Green - “pseudo” is an important prefix here because the translators mistakenly assumed that O Bigin had come from the word beag (= small), and that O hUaithnin had come from the word uaithne (= green).
(3) by a process of changing the name to a similar sounding English name, eg. O Maoilbhearaigh becomes Marlborough, OTeimhin becomes Thynne, Mac Conchradha becomes Crowe. This process sometimes also involved incorrect translation, as when O Gaoithin (gaoth = wind) becomes Wyndham*. Sometimes this process was gradual, as when O hIomhair becomes Hure (by process no. 1 above) and then, "for reasons of politeness", was changed to the English name, Howard.
* this last example is from Edward Lysaght’s note on the name Wyndham.

Gillian M. Doherty, in her book, ‘The Irish Ordnance Survey: History, Culture and Memory’, shows that John O’Donovan, the Irish scholar who was engaged by the O.S., believed that the Irish went along quite happily with the “civilization” of their surnames – especially if it helped them to keep their lands. (O'Donovan wasn't happy).

To get back to Kerwick and Kerucan in Tulla: I think, in this case, that Kerwick may have come from Kerucan by process No. 3 above.
It seems the name Kerwick has not survived in Tulla – the Genmap shows it was there at the time of Tithes* but had disappeared by 1901. But there are probably plenty of descendants of the female Kerwicks still in Tulla, and maybe some other Kerwick descendants abroad.
*The Tithe Applotment Books shows that a Pat Kerwick lived at Tulla Cottage. Tulla Cottage, in Tithes, is a place name, rather a single house, and is sub-division of Tulla Town. It may be that the father of Andrew McNamara (that’s Andrew who was married to Bridget Kerwick) moved to the house of his father-in-law, Pat Kerwick, and so his address had become Tulla Cottage by the time of the birth of Andrew abt. 1818.

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:03 am

Jimbo stated....At least we know that Honor Cunningham and Mary Cunningham were not first cousins, as this would have required a special dispensation for being in the second degree of affinity. There is no record of a dispensation which is clearly stated in another Tulla marriage record from this period.
Sheila responded: About first cousins marrying the same man – consecutively, of course – I do not believe a dispensation was necessary. Very often a man married a sister of his dead wife, and very often a woman married a brother of her dead husband. In fact this arragement often made very good sense. My mother, in explaining the marriages of her forebears to me long ago, explained that if a dowry had been paid, either in money, or in kind, and the girl bringing the dowry then died, her family felt that, in order to get the full value of that dowry, the widower’s family owed it to them to consider marrying one of her sisters with no dowry, or a smaller one. And she further explained that if the husband of the (original) girl died, her family expected that his family should support her – maybe in the form of doing farmwork for her.
As far as a dispensation being required for a widow(er) to marry the first cousin of their deceased spouse, I believe we are both correct and also both incorrect. It may depend upon the era.

The Catholic canon law on the topic is very clear on the requirements. Below is the relevant definition in the wikipedia article for rules of affinity:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affinity_(canon_law)
The Council of Elvira (c. 300), prohibited the marriage of a widower with his deceased wife's sister. The prohibition became slowly more extensive. By the early 9th century the Western Church had increased the number of prohibited degrees of consanguinity from four to seven. The method of calculating relationships was also changed to simply count the number of generations back to a common ancestor. The church also prohibited affinity to the same seven degrees. While the impediment of affinity is close to but not as compelling as that of consanguinity, the reasoning behind the prohibited degrees of affinity being treated the same as that of consanguinity is the nearness to the blood relatives by the very act of sexual intercourse.

The Council of Trent (1545-1563) limited the impediment to marriage on account of affinity in cases when the affinity is created out of marriage to the second degree of affinity.
So in the 19th century, the affinity rule was still in existence which prohibited a widower such as Thomas Fahey from marrying the first cousin (second degree of affinity) of his deceased wife unless a dispensation was obtained. But how religiously was this rule followed in Ireland? I believe it depends on what decade. Thomas Fahey married Mary Cunningham (possibly the widow of Michael McNamara?) in 1838 which was less than 10 years after the Catholic Emancipation of 1829 in the United Kingdom (including Ireland).
After Emancipation, the Irish Bishops reasserted the Church's public authority, ending an older "wilder" Irish church shaped underground, in persecution and in remote countryside. A less regulated Irish religion was ousted: confession and weddings in homes, mixed marriages, parish tenure for life, relaxed Sunday requirement, 'citizen' dress and titles for priests. A popular culture tugged, sometimes fiercely, with a growing clerical culture. Congregations still had one way left of choosing a priest, or at least disapproving: they could lock him out from his chapel. Florid devotions from France and Italy were introduced, and a sexual puritanism, variously attributed to Jansenist heresy or to Victorian prudery.

Source: "El Proyecto MacNamara, the Maverick Irish Priest and the Race to Seize California, 1844 - 1846" by John Fox. Highly recommend this book which is the story of Father Eugene MacNamara, born in 1814 in Corofin, County Clare. No relation to the missing Thomas McNamara of Glandree.
A likely cousin of my great great grandmother "tugged fiercely" against the growing clerical culture when in the 1860's her husband of about 10 years died and she wanted to marry her deceased husband's first cousin. The priest said "no" that it was prohibited as a second degree of affinity. She would have been perplexed by this as it was no doubt the norm in Irish culture as Sheila has suggested. She explained to the parish priest that she had obtained her husband's permission to marry his first cousin when he was dying. This only made the situation worse as the parish priest said this was a "further impediment, that of crimes arising from a promise of future marriage between the parties, during the life of her deceased husband." At this point, the couple went to the Protestant Registrar in Kilrush to discuss marriage. They were only restrained from this action by the priest threatening to cut them off altogether from the Church if they attempted to get married by the Registrar. It was only after putting up this fight, did the priest finally agree to apply to Rome for a dispensation since "Should they have been married by the Registrar the case would give great scandal." The priest sent a letter to Rome checking on the status of the dispensation which provided all these details (available on-line "Kirby Collection" at the Irish College in Rome, but no longer?). The priest reiterated the scandal of the situation since she was living in the same household as her deceased husband's cousin: "She is so defamed in the estimation of the people on account of him that no other man would marry her." The letter pleads "I am extremely thankful to your Lordship to take up the matter and for your goodness to apply to the Holy Father for the removal of the impediments. To marry them as soon as possible would put an end to scandal and to sin in which I fear they are living". Their marriage record one month later states "dispensed by the Holy Father the Pope in the second degree of affinity". That would be Pope Pius IX.

https://www.historyireland.com/18th-19t ... ias-kirby/

http://www.irishcollege.org/wp-content/ ... e-Rome.pdf

If you see a dispensation recorded in a marriage record, you might consider the difficulty in obtaining a dispensation. Thomas Fahey and Mary Cunningham were married in 1838 when rules were probably a lot more relaxed reflecting a "wilder" Irish Church. So I now agree with Sheila's statement that Thomas Fahey's deceased wife Honora Cunningham and his second wife Mary Cunningham could have indeed been first cousins if not sisters and a dispensation may not have been necessary.

Edit 1: changed wikipedia excerpts for affinity under canon law.
Last edited by Jimbo on Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:00 pm

Hi Jim

That research, together with your family history, certainly gives food for thought, and casts some doubt on the practice described by my mother. She was probably just relaying what she had been told – maybe not entirely reliable.

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:28 am

Hi Sheila,

I'm not sure that your mother was necessarily incorrect in the story she told you. Perhaps she was referring to a time in your ancestry when the rules were less strict, and a widow would indeed marry a sister of his deceased spouse without a dispensation. Perhaps this was common in the first half of the 19th century? Your mother's mention of "dowry" might narrow the time frame of the period she referred to? I went back and edited my definition on Canon law for Affinity as the wikipedia excerpts I had chosen were very confusing and did not stand on their own. A confusing topic should be more clear now.

Was very interested in your recent posting mentioning the article about the Irish poet Brian Merriman (c1749-1805) by Brian O Dalaigh in County Clare Studies. I had never heard of this poet, and now twice in a matter of days his name has come up. My previous posting included a paragraph from "El Proyecto MacNamara" by John Fox (Merrion publishers, 2014) highlighting a more relaxed Irish Church prior to the 1829 Catholic Emancipation. The very next paragraph in "El Proyecto MacNamara" is about Brian Merriman as evidence that Irish society of an earlier period wasn't nearly as prudish and orthodox:
Brian Merriman, a hedge teacher of Feakle, east of Corofin, had composed a bawdy Gaelic poem in 1787, before overpopulation was a problem. His Midnight Court heard women complain about unromantic males, and advised 'Go to Mass to find a man, pray to lure a man, and fast to appear attractive to a man.' The Court warned against the clergy's 'handsome fee' for the 'fuss and racket' of marrying. Merriman advocated free love: even Jesus was respectably illegitimate. The clergy, warned his Court, 'well dressed, well treated and well fed', should re-read St Paul: 'Lust, not a wife, was what a man should shun for life.' Red-blooded, educated young men in Clare had heard or knew of the subversive Midnight Court long before it appeared in print in the 1850s.
This brought me back to the not so bawdy poem "The Hills of Sweet Glandree". Rereading the poem makes me wonder what kind of merriment the young men and Colleen Dhas got up to on the banks of lonely Lough Ea away from the prying eyes of Church and neighbors:

In memory's dream there long shall dwell,
Sweet thoughts of other days;
Of the joys we knew, with comrades true,
In youth's bright happy ways;
Of the Colleen Dhas whom none surpass,
With hearts so light and free,
And the days we spent in merriment
On the Hills of Sweet Glandree.


And was there Intra Parish Merriment centered around Lough Ea? This has made me reconsider some prior assumptions. Feakle Parish is a considerable distance from Lough Ea, and perhaps we won't find many of the Glandree McNamara's in the Feakle marriage/baptism records as I once thought so likely. Researching the surroundings of Lough Ea on the map, it was surely those from Crusheen Parish from the north that would join the Glandree McNamara's from the south in spending their spring and summer round sweet Loughea where the foxes play and hide.

Two minutes into my research into the Crusheen Parish baptism records (1860 - 1880), and I was able to solve a minor mystery in the search for the missing Thomas McNamara of Glandree. Thomas McNamara (#8A) and Julia O'Neil of Steuben County, New York had four Irish born children, but only two have been found in the Tulla baptism records. Missing is their daughter Anne McNamara who was age 6 in the 1875 NY Census and born in the USA; and in the 1880 NY Census she is age 10 and born in Ireland. You may recall that I even considered whether Anne was born on the voyage across the Atlantic. But alas, Anne McNamara was baptized in Crusheen Parish in October 1869 to parents Thomas McNamara and Judy O'Neill of Scalpnagoon, witnesses Thomas Foundation (sp?) and Bridget Mack. See baptism record below. This now only leaves daughter Bridget McNamara born in Ireland about 1865 as missing from the Clare baptism records.

Scalpnagown, Crusheen is 6.1 km from Lough Ea, about an 1 hour 10 minute journey walking. Derryulk Upper, Tulla is about the same distance to Lough Ea at 5.6 km taking about 1 hour 5 minutes. See below google map. Glendree was even closer at about 4 km. The Crusheen Parish records are a good choice to where at least some of the McNamara's have gone. The poem "The Hills of Sweet Glandree" has certainly led to fresh insights into the ongoing search for the missing Thomas McNamara of Glandree.
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NLI Crusheen Bapism of Anne McNamara in October 1869.jpg
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Distances to Lough Ea on google maps.jpg
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Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:36 am

Hi Jim,

That poem by Brian Merriman is one of those things that everyone (in Ireland) knows about, but nobody reads (including myself). When Frank O’Connor published an English version in 1945, it was immediately banned by the censor, but the original (Cuirt An Mhean Oiche) was never banned! The first verse – which describes walking in the early morning dew, beside Lough Graney – we learned at school. There’s a memorable line that describes the mountains looking over each others’ shoulders: “Ag bagairt a gcinn thar dhroim a cheile”.

Good work finding the baptism of Ann McNamara in the Crusheen baptism register. I would never have thought of looking there. I bet Judy O’Neill’s family lived in Scalpnagown. It’s possible that she is a sister of Thomas O’Neill, the father of the Ellen O’Neill, whose letters were donated to clarelibrary.ie: http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... etters.htm. You may remember that I referred to those letters in the thread entitled, "Items on Mealy/O’Malley of Tulla Parish": http://www.ourlibrary.ca/phpbb2/viewtop ... f=1&t=6907.

Yes, Scalpnagown is very close to Tulla parish. When you drive north on that R462 road from the point I referred to above (where a little road takes off and wanders around Lough Ea and beyond) you go through Gortnamearacaun, for a little bit, and into Scalpnagown. Soon you come to the brow of the hill and see down into the valley where Crusheen parish lies, with Co. Galway in a bluey haze beyond. In fact you come to the border with Galway quite soon afterwards. I can never figure out what natural feature marks that important boundary (between counties and between provinces) – maybe there is a little stream there. All I can see is a brown notice saying “You are now in Galway”.

In Griffith’s there are 3 plots in Scalpnagown with 2 of these covering most of the area, each shared by a number of people who lived together in two villages (of houses). A Thomas O’Neill and a Mary O’Neill are just two of the tenants sharing plot 3, but there may have been more O’Neills living there previously, so we can’t be sure that Judy was from either of those two families. The population of Scalpnagown was much larger in the 1840s than in the 1850s. The population went from 219, in 1841, to 142 in 1851. The number of houses went from 41 to 21.

Sheila

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:33 pm

No, I'm wrong. Judy O’Neill McNamara (of Steuben) is not a daughter of Thomas O’Neill, Scalpnagown. The Note at the end of the letters says that Thomas lived 1804-1869.
In 1901 there are two families of O’Neills in Scalpnagoon:
(1) John O’Neill, who is married to Judy Hanrahan and who is a son of Thomas, according to the Note.
(2) Mary O’Neill, who is the widow of another John O’Neill. Her maiden name was Mary Clancy. She married John in 1869 (registered in Tulla, but the image is not available, so I can’t tell who his father is). I think this second family of O’Neills may be the one Judy (Steuben) belongs to. If so, she's probably a sister of that John. He died sometime before 1901.

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:04 am

Hi Sheila,

Julia O'Neill McNamara died in Pennsylvania on 19 January 1910; her parents were listed as Michael O'Neill and Catherine Casey; birth date as 6 February 1834. The death record was most likely completed by her husband Thomas McNamara who died in 1925, so more likely to be accurate than if completed by her children. Her father Mike O'Neill could be a brother of Thomas O'Neill of Scalpnagown and thus Julia O"Neill would be cousin of the Ellen O'Neill who had the letter archive. There a couple of letters from their cousin Thomas Purcell living in Elmira, New York from 1855 encouraging his O'Neill cousins to immigrate to Elmira. I found the letters interesting as those living in Scalpnagown tried to decide whether to join relatives in America versus New Zealand. Elmira, New York is only about twenty miles east of Lindell, Steuben County, New York where Thomas and Julia McNamara were in 1875. However, the McNamara's were never mentioned in the letter archive (there were only 2 letters from the 1870's). As a reminder, this is Thomas Mac #8A, not the missing Civil War soldier.

Thanks again for providing the 1855 Griffith's Valuation for Derryulk Middle on John McNamara in plot 3 (18 acres) and Hannah McNamara (widow of Patt McNamara) in plot 4 (10 acres). John McNamara and Mary Kelly after moving from Glandree had at least three children born in Derryulk: Margaret (1838), Mary?? (missing quarter 1841), Bridget (1845), and Michael (1849).

I believe their daughter Margaret McNamara of Derryulk married Thomas Meehan on 20 May 1857. Margaret would have been about 19 years old, which appears to be a perfect age during that era to get married. I checked the family of Patt McNamara and Hannah/Ellen Keefe living in plot 4 and they had many children, but no Margaret: John (1828), Stephen (1829), Michael (1832), Patt (1835), Bridget (1839) all in Derryulk.

Margaret McNamara and Thomas Meehan lived in Crusheen (Inchicronan) Parish and had seven girls and two boys:
1) Patt (1858 or 1859?), Crusheen baptism register starts in 1860. See census below.
2) Hannah (1860) in Clooneen, Stephen McNamara is a sponsor perhaps a first cousin?
3) Catherine (1862) in Cloun (?)
4) Bridget (1865) in Cloun (?)
5) Honora (1867) in Cloundera (?), see note 1
6) John (1868) in Cloundera (?)
7) Eliza (1872) in Clonen, see note 1
8 ) Anne (1875) in Cappafean
9) Ellen (1877) in Clonderowen

Note 1: the father of Honora and Eliza is reported in the baptism register as "Pat" and "John", respectively. But this appears to be a mistake by the priest as there were no other Meehan births with "Pat" and "John" Meehan as fathers with a McNamara mother. Plus the locations are consistent with the other children of Thomas Meehan.

In the 1901 Irish Census, Margaret Meehan (age 70) is living in Knocklohane, Tuberbreeda with her children Patt (age 40), John (age 28), Ellen (age 21). In 1911, Margaret Meehan is age 75 living in Knockaloaghan, Tuberbreeda, Clare with the same children:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/r ... 000489283/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/r ... 001805485/

I tried to find the Meehan locations in Crusheen Parish on google maps. In the 1855 Griffith's Valuation there are Meehan's living in Cappafeean and Knockaloughan. Given that the baptism registers are not very clear for some years, I'm not sure if Thomas and Margaret Meehan lived in Clooneen or Cloonagowan? or both depending upon the year? See map below.

The Ellen O'Neill letter archive at the Clare Library that Sheila mentioned provides great examples on how the Irish would decide what country to immigrate to based upon information from their relatives overseas. Did all the nine Meehan children stay in Ireland? Or did some immigrate following their Aunts to Wawarsing, New York or Barnsley, Yorkshire? If so, this would provide evidence that John McNamara and Mary Kelly of Glandree / Derryulk are the parents of the missing Civil War solider Thomas McNamara of Glandree.

Edit 1 on 9 February 2024: deleted google map (114 KB) showing distances between Derryulk and Cappafeean / Clooneen to save space.
Last edited by Jimbo on Fri Feb 09, 2024 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:34 am

Hi Jim

Good work finding the parents of Julia/Judy. I do believe that Judy’s living (or visiting) in Scalpnagown at the time of the birth of her daughter, Ann, is evidence that she belonged to a family of O’Neills there, but not the family of Thomas O’Neill – his family seem to be all accounted for in the Note at the end of the letters.

About the plots (farms) in Derryulk Middle, I made a small mistake. The 10 acres in plot 4 should be 16 acres. And this was where John McNamara and Hannah Keefe lived and raised their family.

As you say, John McNamara and Mary Kelly baptised a daughter Margaret in 1838; address: Derryulk. And, yes, she may be the Margaret McNamara of Derryulk who married Thomas Meehan in 1857. One of the witnesses is William Rouen (not a very common surname in Clare) who must be the William Rouen who lived in the Clonderown-Knockaloaghan-Drumbaniff area of Crusheen parish (see Crusheen baptisms). Griffith’s shows a Patrick Rowan living in plots 1 and 2 in Knockaloaghan and Thomas Meehan living in plot 3, which lies between plots 1 and 2. If it weren’t for William Rouen, I would have thought Thomas was more likely to be the Thomas Meehan who is living in Derryulk Middle at the time of Griffith’s Valuation.
As you say, Margaret nee McNamara, was still living in Knocklohane (Tuberbreeda DED), aged 70, with her sons Patrick and John and her daughter Ellen. If age 70 is correct, she was born abt 1830 – a bit too early for Margaret the daughter of John McNamara and Mary Kelly, who was baptised in 1838. But in 1911, the age given is 75, which makes it a lot more likely that she is the Margaret baptised in 1838. I can find no record of her death.
Clonderown has not been an “official” townland since the making of the 1842 map, but Clounderaown placename features in Tithes as the address of Pat Rowen, Pat Meehan and Connor Rogers. Looking at the Tithes book, I can see that Clonderown lay beside Knockaloaghan. The townland of Cappafeean lies adjacent to Knockaloaghan - as per the 1842 map - but, I suspect that, in the making of that map, some if not all of Clonderown was included in Cappafeean, or Knockaloghan, or both. Tithes shows Meehans and Rowens in Cappafian. The baptisms show that Cappafeean was the home of John Meehan who had married Catherine Arthur, from Kilraghtis, in 1846 – it’s likely enough that the Crusheen priest, in recording the baptisms, confused John and Thomas, and also their dwelling places, a couple of times. Catherine McNamara nee Arthur is also still alive in 1901, aged 80, and living in Cappafean.
About “Clooneen”, I’ve looked at the orginal of that record of the baptism of Hannah to Thomas Meehan and Mary McNamara in 1860 (pg. 4 online), and I can see that “Cloneen” is just a guess at a placename beginning with “Clo”. About Cloonagowan, I don’t see anything linking Meehans with that townland. But I like your map of the journey from Derryulk Middle to Cloonagowan.
Your last sentence threw me a bit when I first read it, but, yes, if Thomas Mack the Civil War Veteran is Thomas born to John McNamara and Mary Kelly in 1832 (before the move to Derryulk), then Margaret is his younger sister and her children are his nieces and nephews.

Sheila

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:24 am

Hi Jim

Something is making me doubt that Margaret McNamara (who married Thomas Meehan) is the daughter of John McNamara and Mary Kelly: it’s that a Stephen McNamara is one of the sponsors at the baptism of her daughter Hannah Meehan in 1860. I wonder if this the Stephen who was born to Pat McNamara and Hana Keefe, Derryulk, in 1829, and who is brother-in-law to Bridget McNamara (nee Naughten), in Deryulk, in 1901. If so, then it is very likely that he is the brother of Margaret Meehan. That would make her a daughter of Pat McNamara and Hana Keefe.
None of the other Meehan children have a McNamara sponsor (well, we don’t know about the eldest, Patrick, who was born before the Crusheen register was opened), so there are no other clues among the sponsors.

Have you any thoughts on this marriage in Apr. 1877: John Meehan, Derrulk, son of Thomas Meehan, to Anne McNamara, Derrulk, daughter of John McNamara, in Tulla Chapel; witnesses: Thomas Dooley, Mary Mack.
In 1901, Anne gives her age as 55, which would mean she was born abt. 1845. I can’t find her in 1911. If her age in 1901 is correct, she must be a daughter of John McNamara and Mary Kelly – the other John in Derryulk (son of Pat McNamara and Hanna Keefe) and his wife Bridget Naughten had their family in the 1860s. So the Michael McNamara, who reported the death of his father John McNamara in 1882, may not the only descendant of that family left in the area at that time after all.

That Michael may have gone away (take note that I am not killing him off!) and, if so, this might explain why plot 3 in the 1921 Rate Book (for Kiltannon DED) is now held by Michael Meehan - most likely the Michael who is aged 19 in 1901. Plot 3, as you know, had been held by John McNamara in Griffith's Valuation.

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:56 am

Hi Sheila,

My apologies as my last paragraph was indeed confusing. Yes, of course, if Thomas McNamara the missing Civil War soldier is Thomas born to John McNamara and Mary Kelly in 1832, then Margaret is his younger sister and her children are his nieces and nephews. What I was trying to convey was the opposite approach to problem solving. The only facts we know are that Mary McNamara Madigan of Barnsley and Elizabeth McNamara Hornbeck of Warwarsing are the sisters of the missing Thomas McNamara. We know (or I think we know) that the parents of Margaret McNamara Meehan are John McNamara and Mary Kelly. Therefore, if we could prove that Margaret Meehan is the sister of either Mary Madigan or Elizabeth Hornbeck, then the parents of the missing Civil War soldier must be John McNamara and Mary Kelly. We could solve part of the puzzle, simply through the relationship between the sisters. This could be done for example, if the Meehan daughters moved to Barnsley or Wawarsing to live with their Aunts. However unlikely this might be of course, it would not solve the other part of the puzzle: what happened to the missing Thomas McNamara?

The evidence that the Margaret McNamara who married Thomas Meehan is the daughter of John McNamara and Mary Kelly is a 1838 baptism record with Derryulk as a residence. When Margaret McNamara married Thomas Meehan in Tulla, the residence was also Derryulk. Her birth in 1838 is perfect for a mother who would have children from 1858 through to 1877. The fact that Stephen McNamara appears as a sponsor on one baptism, might reflect a sibling relationship or it could just as well reflect a favorite cousin relationship. Margaret and Thomas Meehan had many children, and if Margaret was a sister to Stephen McNamara as you suggest, I would have expected Stephen's other four siblings to appear on the baptism register as sponsors. While Margaret's first born daughter was named Hannah, her second born son was named John.

Great job in finding the Anne McNamara born about 1845 in Derryulk who I agree must be the daughter of John McNamara and Mary Kelly. On the Tulla baptism register there is a gap in births for John McNamara and Mary Kelly between Margaret born in December 1838 and Bridget born in January 1845. I believe Mary McNamara Madigan of Barnsley was born in the missing baptism page for May through July 1841. Your new discovery Anne McNamara may have been born in the missing baptism page for January through March 1843. That would be within 2 years of her age on the 1901 Irish census which are often not so accurate. Another option, is that "Anne" is the "Bridget" born in 1845 to John McNamara and Mary Kelly. Pat McNamara and Hannah Keefe also had a "Bridget" born in 1839 in Derryulk and perhaps it was easier for one to be called "Anne" to distinguish between the two? I cannot find any marriage record for either Bridget that specifies Derryulk to identify them. Thanks again for discovering their daughter Anne McNamara.

For the children of Thomas Meehan and Margaret McNamara, there were 3 schools in Crusheen Parish: Crusheen, Ballinruan, and Drumbaniff. The Meehan children attended Drumbaniff National School in Drumbonniv whose records are available on ancestry.com. It was very interesting to read the original records to see what new information can be gleaned and also to test a well known theory of Irish immigration.

For each of the Meehan children, the Drumbaniff National School records included date of entrance, age, residence, religion, occupation of father (or else "widow"). There were several Meehan families represented based on residence; parent names were not reported. Here are the children I believe of Thomas Meehan (occupation, farmer) and Margaret McNamara from 10 separate records:

1) Anne (Hannah?), 1865, age 5, Tubberbreeda
2) Catherine, 1870, age 7, Tubberbreeda
3) Bridget, 1871, age 5, Tubberbreeda
4) John, 1875, age 5, Cloun
5) Eliza, 1878, age 4, Tubberbreeda
6) Elliza, 1881, age 7, Tubberbreeda
7) Ann, 1880, age 3?, C. Derawen
8 ) Ellen, 1883, age 4, Tubberbreeda
9) Ellen, 1885, age 6, Cloun
10) Anne, 1886, age 9?, Cloun

My previous map included "Clooneen" and "Cloonagowan" simply because of the "Cloun" baptism records of the Meehan children. The above school records are evidence that you were absolutely correct that the Meehan family lived in "Clounderaown" an old townland adjacent to Cappafeean and Knockaloaghan. Their local school would abbreviate this as "Cloun", the same as the Crusheen baptism register. "C. Derawen" likely stands for "Clounderowen" which is great evidence. Tubberbreeda, of course, is the same as the Thomas Meehan family on the 1901 / 1911 census reports.

Another Meehan family lived in Cappafeean, and I agree that the priest most likely confused the families with the baptism of Anne in 1875. A Meehan who was a herdsman lived in nearby Ballyscanlon, and another Meehan farmer living in Derrycragg (not sure where on map?) sent his two sons to Drumbaniff School. Below is a map which shows where the various Meehan families lived. From Knockaloughan to Drumbonniv it is only 2 km and about a 30 minute walk.

There was no sign of the eldest son Pat, born about 1859, who in the 1901 census could both read and write. The 1886 Drumbaniff School record for their daughter Anne, stated that she was transferring from the National School at Knockjames, Clare. This is in Derryulk, so perhaps Pat as well as Honora (born 1867) also attended school in Derryulk and lived with relatives.

The school records were very interesting. It appears that you had to be in attendance at least 90 days during the year to qualify for the test / assessment on various subjects that you needed to pass to move to the next level. Many students would take 6 years to attain only 3 levels. Of the Meehan children, Anne Meehan who attended school in Knockjames prior to the Drumbaniff School was by far the most clever of the Meehan children based upon her report card. I thoroughly checked the USA immigration records to see if she immigrated to America, but was disappointed. Annie Meehan Littleton and Michael Littleton are living in the adjacent house to the widow Margaret Meehan in Knockaloaghan in both the 1901 and 1911 Irish census; they had 9 children in the 1911 census from ages 17 through 1 years old.

Here is a cool website of "Disused School Houses" in Ireland by Enda O'Flaherty from County Cork. The Drumbonniv School page states that the existing disused school was built in 1890 and the original school building opened in 1844. So not the same building as the Meehan children attended, but interesting photos nonetheless. Enda O'Flaherty has also just published a related book "Disused School Houses in Ireland" (September 2018, Collins Press).

https://endaoflaherty.com/2014/12/31/dr ... -co-clare/
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Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:20 am

Hi Jim

While you were gathering those records for the children of Thomas Meehan and Margaret McNamara, Knocklohane, I was gatherine some for the children of John Meehan and Anne McNamara, Derryulk Middle: Margaret b. 1878; Honor b. 1880; Michael 1882; Mary 1884; John 1886; Bridget 1889.
They all attended Knockjames school: http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... 3_1960.htm
In 1901, they are all still living at home. Then some went to America, as shown in Tom McDowell’s list of emigrants: http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... grants.htm
(1) Mary Meehan, b. 1889, went to Amerca in 1907, giving her relative in Ireland as her father, John Meehan, Tulla, and her destination as her sister, Norah, 239, West 47th St., NY.
(2) Margaret Meehan, born 1880, went to America in 1908, giving her relative in Ireland as her father, John Meehan, Derryulk, and her destination as her sister, Nora, 439, West 37th Ave., NY.
(3) Bridget (Delia) Meehan, born 1889, went to America in Sept. 1916, giving her relative in Ireland as her brother, Michael Meehan, Knockjames, Tulla, and her destination as her sister, Mrs. Carroll, 633, Columbus Avenue, New York.
Michael Meehan had married earlier that year in Knockjames Chapel: Michael Meehan, Derulk, son of John Meehan, dead, married Ellen Russell, Baloughtra, daughter of James Russell, dead, in Mar. 1916; witnesses: John Dooley, Mary McCormick.

Sheila
Last edited by Sduddy on Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:05 am

Hi Jim

Looking at those transcribed emigrations through Ellis Island, I can see that young people going to America in the early 20th century did not need to go to aunts and uncles very often – they usually had a brother, or sister to go to. The trouble with the immigration records, previous to the setting up of Ellis Island, is that they don’t give the relatives in America. Am I right in that?
So, I doubt that we will find any connection with Aunt Elizabeth in Wawarsing.

The stuff we are doing now is based on a couple of large “IFs”: (First IF) If John McNamara and Mary Kelly of Glendree are the same couple as John McNamara and Mary Kelly of Derryulk, then their son Thomas may our Thomas. (This is a large “if” because both McNamara and Kelly are very common names in Tulla, and John and Mary are very common first names), and then only (Second IF) If they had a daughter called Mary born abt. 1840, and a daughter called Eliza, or Elizabeth. That's an even larger "if" than the first one.

Never mind this dash of cold water. At least we can say we explored one possibility to a reasonable degree (whatever that is).

Jim, I don’t think Bridget would have been called Anne in order to distinguish her. There are plenty of variations on Bridget to distinguish one from the other: Biddy, Bid, Bridgie, Delia, Bride, Bridie and Birdie.

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:25 am

Hi Sheila,

Thank you for researching the family of Anne McNamara and John Meehan of Derryulk. Looks like all their children made it to New York except the eldest son Michael Meehan. Elizabeth McNamara Hornbeck died in Wawarsing in February 1910. She was always a long shot to receive relatives immigrating from Ireland. Plus, by then Elizabeth Hornbeck had converted to the Reformed Protestant Dutch Church which may have created a break with her Catholic relations back in Ireland.

Nora Meehan married Patrick Carroll in Manhattan on 8 Sept 1912. In the 1920 Census, Nora and Patrick Carroll, their 3 children, sister Delia Meehan, brother John Meehan (arrived 1916), and a boarder Mary Torpey are all in the same household. See 1920 Census below. By the 1925 NY Census, Nora Carroll is a widow living with her 3 children and sister Delia Meehan. A 37 year old Patrick Carroll died on 20 January 1923 in Brooklyn. His occupation was "Motorman, B.R.T.", the same as the 1920 census occupation. Patrick's parents were reported as John Carroll and Ann Flemming; wife as "Mrs. Carroll".

1920 Census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... print=true

Nora Carroll continued to live at 633 Columbus Avenue just one block west of Central Park as reported on the 1930 census. In 1933, Delia Meehan took her 14 year old niece Veronica Carroll back to Ireland and they returned on the Laconia arriving in New York on 9 May 1933. Their address was 82 W. 91 Street, New York; the same address as in the 1940 census.

1933 Trip back to Ireland: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... print=true

But are these children of Anne McNamara Meehan even related to the missing Thomas McNamara and Elizabeth McNamara Hornbeck? I think you might be right that there are two independent families of John McNamara and Mary Kelly. One family in Glandree and a separate family in Derryulk. But far from pouring cold water on the search for the missing Thomas McNamara of Glandree, it actually opens several avenues of new research for me to consider. Sheila, thanks as always for your feedback.
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smcarberry
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by smcarberry » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:03 pm

Sheila posted:
"While you were gathering those records for the children of Thomas Meehan and Margaret McNamara, Knocklohane, I was gathering some for the children of John Meehan and Anne McNamara, Derryulk Middle: Margaret b. 1878; Honor b. 1880; Michael 1882; Mary 1884; John 1886; Bridget 1889.
...
In 1901, they are all still living at home. Then some went to America, as shown in Tom McDowell’s list of emigrants: http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... grants.htm
(1) Mary Meehan, b. 1889, went to Amerca in 1907, giving her relative in Ireland as her father, John Meehan, Tulla, and her destination as her sister, Norah, 239, West 47th St., NY.
(2) Margaret Meehan, born 1880, went to America in 1908, giving her relative in Ireland as her father, John Meehan, Derryulk, and her destination as her sister, Nora, 439, West 37th Ave., NY.
(3) Bridget (Delia) Meehan, born 1889, went to America in Sept. 1916, giving her relative in Ireland as her brother, Michael Meehan, Knockjames, Tulla, and her destination as her sister, Mrs. Carroll, 633, Columbus Avenue, New York."

Without trying to insert myself in this great ongoing discussion of who was who, I do have some saved related material. Here are the obits that may shed light on which John was known as Patrick:

NY Times 22 Dec 1933
Margaret Meehan, wife of Patrick, mother of Michael, Mary, & Delia Meehan, and of Mrs. Nora Carroll. Native of Tulla.

New York Times - Jun 18, 1978
MEEHAN- Della, on June 17, 1978, native of Tulla, County Clare. Ireland. loving sister of the late Margaret Smith, Nora Carroll, Michael.

Looking forward to your new musings in light of this,
SMC

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