Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

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Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Sat May 05, 2018 6:44 pm

Firstly, in checking some records in order to make this reply, I discovered that I had not done a very good job in sorting the data for the Tulla 1846-1862 baptisms by father’s surname: I don’t know what I’d done exatly, but I’ve rectified it now anyway. How many more similar mistakes have I made, I hate to think.

I looked at your chart, Jim, and you certainly have narrowed down the possibilities for Thomas McNamara. I decided that the early years of the 1846-1862 baptisms should be looked at as well, just in case some young Thomas from Glendree enlisted at the end of the civil war (that’s how I came to find my badly-sorted data), but I found no suitable Thomas in those baptisms – you probably had checked them already.

But have you narrowed the possibilities too much? You’ve decided that Thomas, who is in Glendree in 1901, aged 72, is the same Thomas who features in Tulla baptisms (1862 – 1880) as father of several children with his wife Bridget Hayes. But I don’t understand how you know his father’s name is Michael. Yes, I see the marriage of a Thomas McNamara and a Bridget Hayes in Caher-Feakle, but it’s in 1863 – before registration begins. I know that if he is aged 72 in 1901, and therefore born about 1829, he has to be the son of either Michael McNamara and Mary Cusack, or Michael McNamara and Bridget McNamara.

Have you looked for any records for Thomas’ sister, Mary. Is she in the English census? It would be helpful to know her age. She had not married by 1879 – unless she married a McNamara, of course.

Anyway I think it’s a good idea to get right away from the Fenian angle.

Sheila

P.S. But for anyone interested in the attempted invasions of Canada 1866 – 1870, I would recommend Thomas Keneally’s book, ‘The Great Shame’ where he gives quite a detailed account in the chapter entitled ‘Fenians at Large’. Keneally has a good eye for a striking picture - here he quotes from a newpaper report* on the return of the rank and file after yet another fiasco in 1870: “Meanwhile, many of the men O’Reilly met – ‘poor disheartened fellows’ straggling along the road from Malone to Trout River – burst into tears at what they called their disgrace. ‘Judging from the military physique of the greater number, there can be no doubt that, with qualified officers, these men would prove that they did not merit the name they now feared – cowards.’”
*John Boyle O’Reilly for the Pilot (a Boston newspaper), June 04, 1870.

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Sun May 06, 2018 8:46 pm

Hi Sheila, thanks very much for your feedback and once again your transcriptions of the Tulla records. No matter how they are sorted, the transcriptions are a 1,000 times easier than trying to makes sense of the original baptism and marriage records. You did a exceptional job with these Tulla transcriptions.

The fact that the Civil War soldier Thomas McNamara was last heard from when on furlough is an important clue. A soldier who enlisted in 1864 or 1865 would unlikely have earned a furlough. The American Civil War started in April 1861 and hostilities ended on 9 May 1865. Upon realizing that the war wouldn't be over in just a few months but take years and years, Union soldiers were enlisted for a period of three years. A typical furlough was for a Union soldier who completed their initial 3 year term (say ending in 1864 / early 1865) and reenlisted as a volunteer veteran. These soldiers would earn a 30 day veteran furlough.

It is fortunate that not one McNamara family in Glandree named their son Thomas in the period from 1834 to 1846. These would be prime birth years for Civil War soldiers. So I reckon the missing Thomas McNamara from Glandree was over 28 years old when he enlisted.

Reviewing both the Tulla baptism & marriage records in the period 1846 - 1862 does provide a few clues on several Thomas McNamara's born in Tulla from 1819 - 1846:

Either Thomas McNamara (#11) or Tom McNamara (#12) of Teereda possibly married Margaret Whelan of Tyredagh on 4 February 1853. Thomas or Tom would have about 19 or 20 years at marriage.

Thomas McNamara (#9) of Newgrove possibly married Bridget Connors of Newgrove on 26 February 1859. Thomas would have been about 21 years old.

I could find no baptism records in Tulla of any children for these two couples. Above information doesn't preclude either of these McNamara's from going to the USA to fight in the Civil War but might help distinguish them from the hundreds of other Thomas McNamara's.

Regarding which Thomas McNamara married Bridget Hayes and is living in Glandree in 1901, I agree that Thomas McNamara (#3, mother Mary Cusack) is still a possibility. My reasoning for selecting Thomas McNamara (#4, mother Bridget McNamara) was that the Michael McNamara & Mary Cusack family appear to have left Glandree for Teereera (Tyrera about 15 kilometers south of Glandree?) based on births of their younger children. Plus, Thomas McNamara in 1901 is living in house 6 in Glandree, next to a 91 year old Pat McNamara in house 5 (possibly an uncle to Thomas #4 and godfather to his brother Michael born in 1835?). Both are only circumstantial, so I agree that Thomas McNamara #4 shouldn't be eliminated as a possibility for the Civil War soldier.

Regarding having a look for Mary McNamara living in Barnsley, Yorkshire... there is only one widow Mary McNamara born in 1811 in the 1881 Census - two years after the 1879 newspaper advert. None of the Thomas McNamara's of Glandree who having siblings born in 1840's are likely to have a widowed sister born in 1811.

I also recommend The Great Shame by Thomas Keneally - although at over 600 pages not exactly light summer reading!

smcarberry
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Location: USA

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by smcarberry » Mon May 07, 2018 2:19 pm

My apologies - I glossed over an obvious clue in my version of Mary's ad for Thomas, so now I attach my copy and what I just found for the sister Elizabeth McNamara Hornbeck. She lived through the 1910, just short of census time, and fairly consistently was shown as born about 1833 Ireland. In 1900 she is listed as having immigrated 1850, but I couldn't find her in Ulster County, where she must have married the widower John Hornbeck in about 1852. His son Daniel was baptized in the Dutch Reformed Church, which makes sense since Hornbeck/Hornbeek looks Dutch, a very good fit ethnically for this Ulster Co. Per the 1855 census, Elizabeth's first child was Clarissa, a lovely Civil War-era name, with her son being named Charles. Nothing appears on her gravestone about her origins, and I haven't yet found an obituary for anyone in her family. However, she was in Wawarsing the whole time. I will have to do a second posting to show 1860-1900.

Hope this can be of help in sorting out the many fellows who could be her brother Thomas. Note that Elizabeth's husband died while serving in the 120th NY Inf., although Elizabeth still listed him in the 1880 household, a typical widow's ploy still done by my relatives with their telephone book listings through the late 1900s.

Sharon C.
McN, Thos of Tulla, img'd US 1855, ad 1869.jpg
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Last edited by smcarberry on Mon May 07, 2018 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

smcarberry
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by smcarberry » Mon May 07, 2018 2:25 pm

The other censuses for Elizabeth McNamara Hornbeck. Plus one for a NYC listing in the 1850 census, for an Elizabeth of suitable age and a woman old enough to be her mothers.

SMC
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McN, Walker 1850 NYC  Aug 21st.JPG
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Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Tue May 08, 2018 3:13 am

Thanks very much Sharon! No apologies necessary. If you had found this right away, we may have never learned about Thomas Mack and the Irish Fenians of Buffalo which I found very interesting.

I think it odd that the search for Thomas McNamara is being coordinated by the sister living in Yorkshire and not the sister in New York. Your mention that Elizabeth McNamara Hoornbeck was a Civil War widow might explain why she wouldn't want to coordinate the search (unsavory characters taking advantage of a widow). But take a second look at the gravestone for Johannes D. Hoornbeck - this man died at the young age of 26 (born 1838). Elizabeth married a widower born about 1810. The Johannes who died during the Civil War appears more likely to be a nephew of J.D. Hoornbeck, as the findagrave website states his parents were Matthew and Rachel Hoornbeck. So in the 1880 census, Elizabeth was not a widow and this was accurately reported.

With your new information, we now know that Mary McNamara of Barnsley searched for her brother Thomas in 1869 and 1879, both times she was living on Albert Street. I decided to have another search of the England census for Barnsley as she had to be there. This time searching the 1871 Census for any "Mary" born in Ireland within 10 years of 1835 who was living in Barnsley, Yorkshire. Most of the 28 resulting Mary's provided the Irish county of birth. Don't recommend this approach for Liverpool or New York!

This led to the shoemaker James Madigan (30 years, born Limerick), his wife Mary Madigan (29 years, born in Clare) and three children - see below 1871 Census. Fortunately, their eldest son James (age 9) was born in County Clare. This family was living at 15 Albert Street in Barnsley.

A "Patrick Madigan" was baptized in Tulla on 24 January 1863, parents James Madigan and Mary McNamara. Most likely, the eldest son James in the 1871 census?

And James Madigan married a "Johanna McNamara" in Tulla on 13 February 1860, witnesses Andrew McNamara and Thomas Brennan.

So it appears that the sister of the missing Thomas McNamara went by both Mary and Johanna? Thomas McNamara (#2), the son of John McNamara and Mary Kelly, had a sister named Johanna born in 1835 (about 6 years older than Mary of Barnsley).

Was it common for a child named after a parent to be recorded using a middle name in the baptism records? This appears to be the case for James Patrick son of James Madigan. And for Mary Johanna - possibly the daughter of Mary Kelly McNamara?

But John McNamara and Mary Kelly had no daughter named Elizabeth (the sister living in Wawarsing). Unless Bridget born in 1834 was actually Elizabeth Bridget? Any thoughts here on Irish naming patterns??

In conclusion, I'm not convinced I have found the correct family for Thomas, Mary and Elizabeth yet. I'll research the siblings of the McNamara families living in Tulla outside of Glandree - perhaps one of these families will make a better match.

And will also double check my work for the McNamara families of Glandree as more siblings are turning up. "(?) McNamara" and Mary Kelly of Glandree had a son named John on 11 July 1830. John appears to be another brother of Thomas McNamara (#2).

Thanks again for your help!
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Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Tue May 08, 2018 9:22 am

Sharon, that is really good – both the find (of the 1869 ad.) and the finding (of the census records).

Jim, I don’t see a family that shows Elizabeth, Thomas and Mary as siblings. But I have found James born to James Madigan and Mary McNamara in April 1861. The priest has written “Manigan” instead of Madigan and I have transcribed it accordingly. They are living in Liscolane. Patrick born in January 1863 probably died.

Going back to the parents of Elizabeth, Thomas and Mary: the US 1850 census shows Elizabeth McNamara aged 15 (which fits well enough) living with Honora McNamara, aged 60. As Sharon says, this could be her mother, but it could also be an aunt, I suppose.

I was looking for a possible explanation for the lack of suitable baptisms, and looked at this 1842 map, http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,552888,684419,7,7, and it occurred to me that it maybe it was more convenient to go east to Feakle chapel than to go down to Tulla. One set of my relatives, who were living a bit closer to the chapel in the next parish, went there for their baptisms, so it’s not unheard of – also that’s where the mother’s relatives lived. The records for Feakle don’t begin until 1860, though, so we have no way of knowing if this is what happened here.

Sheila

smcarberry
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by smcarberry » Tue May 08, 2018 11:12 am

Very pleased to see progress with the sister Mary.

Back on the ad just posted, I found that in my East Clare - Tulla folder and not my McNamara folder, where I think I have the 1879 ad. It took a thorough review of my file materials to realize I had a reference to the sister Elizabeth. After seeing she was a longtime Wawarsing resident, I tried finding her obituary or that of her husband, with nothing for her (there was another Eliza Hornbeck of the Wawarsing are, maiden name nee like Aggilar). The Hornbeck family had been in that part of the county for a very long time, and thus there were too many references to men named John to properly track down in my short time to do so. It likely can be done yet, but my time ran out.

While reviewing my file on McNamara of Tulla & Feakle, I saw that Andrew was a significant name for the McNamara families there, so posting more on an Andrew may lead to more leads.

I will now check my materials for anything on Madigan, and your checking for descendant postings (WorldConnect on Rootsweb) might be productive, too. When I can, I will check archived editions of a local Ulster County newspaper, for more on Hornbeck. The database I used already, the Old Fulton New York Postcards one, is comprehensive for old and more recent editions all over the state (and some other states) but the results cannot be filtered to narrow the possibilities.

Sharon C.

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Tue May 08, 2018 8:00 pm

Nice teamwork!

Have a look at Thomas McNamara (#4) on my chart, the son of Michael McNamara and Bridget McNamara. Yes, this is the same Thomas McNamara that just a few days ago I dismissed from contention as assumed he couldn't be missing as was living in Glandree in the 1901 census - until corrected by Sheila!

Thomas #4 has a sibling with an unknown first name born on 30 October 1832. Another unknown sibling appears to start with "M" was born around 1840.

Could the 1832 child be Elizabeth? And the "M" child born around 1840 be Mary (aka Johanna)? The years would both be very close for the sisters Elizabeth of Wawarsing and Mary of Barnsley.

The next step was of course to have another look at the original baptism records (see below). The unknown 1832 child was a complete black smudge but after using the lightening up feature, appears to be "Johana". The 1840ish birth is still illegible no matter how you view this. I suppose the puzzle would have been too simple if these births turned out to be "Elizabeth" and "Mary"!

As a historical note... it is just as well that James Madigan was a shoemaker in Barnsley and not the more common occupation of coal miner. In December 1866 the Oaks Colliery Disaster just outside of Barnsley resulted in the deaths of 361 men and boys - the largest coal mining disaster in English history:

http://www.oaks1866.com/
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smcarberry
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by smcarberry » Thu May 10, 2018 12:11 pm

Nothing much to report, except that the Hornbeck family out in the rural area of Ulster County NY managed to avoid comment on their lives, for the most part - I have now searched all my usual newspaper sources. I also tried what should be a great resource for old families of Ulster County, the Commemorative Biographical Record of Ulster County, published by J.H. Beers in 1896. There is no main entry on a Hornbeck, just mention of individuals of that surname marrying into other families, none yielding anything about a John Hornbeck. However, I did learn that my German line in Kingston NY is distantly related to the involved McNamara line via a marriage of a Kelder whose daughter married a Hornbeck (Kelder being likewise married into my German line there in the mid-1800s). I post a portion of that biography, to illustrate what this book as a resource; it is online on several websites.

I also attach the 1879 ad that I have had, already mentioned as mangling the spelling of Glendree and without mention of the Hornbeck wife appearing in the 1869 ad. Highly unusual that a person was sought twice over 10 years. If Mary McNamara Madigan knew about her sister Elizabeth's Hornbeck marriage, then either there was a huge schism between the sisters blocking communication or neither sister knew what became of Thomas. Would that indicate that he was a victim of crime or a sudden massive physical or mental incapacity, perhaps requiring hospitalization when he was no longer able to name his relatives ?

SMC
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Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Thu May 10, 2018 8:03 pm

The baptism records are very patchy. I read somewhere that they are considered to represent only a fraction of the total number of births – I forget where I read that and what the fraction was. I was a bit dismissive of it – I could not imagine how the figures were reached. But, without question, a whole lot of baptisms went unrecorded. As a small exercise, I looked at the 2 censuses for Glendree and checked to see if I could find the baptisms of the heads of the McNamara households:

1. Pat McNamara, aged 55 in 1901 and 69 in 1911: The civil record of his marriage (to Elleanora McMahon) in 1875 shows that he was from Glendree, a widower, and that his father was Andrew McNamara. I can’t find Pat in the baptisms.

2. Patrick McNamara, aged 52 in 1901 and 65 in 1911, is the son of Pat aged 82 (living in same house). Pat Jun. should be in the 1819-1846 baptisms, or in the 1846 -1862 baptisms, but I can’t find him in either.

3. James McNamara, aged 65 in 1901 and 78 in 1911: The civil record of his marriage (to Margaret Bowles) in 1871 shows he is a Carpenter from Glendree, that his father is James McNamara. James Jun. should be in the 1819 -1846 baptisms. But I can’t find him.

4. Pat McNamara, aged 91 in 1901, has a son Michael, aged 48 in 1901 and 66 in 1911, who should have been baptised sometime between 1844 and 1854, but I can’t find him.

5. Anne McNamara, aged 55 in 1901, must be the widow of Matthew McNamara - at least parish records show that Anne Halpin married Matthew McNamara in 1867. The priest gives Mathew’s address as Uggoon; the record of his death in 1994 gives it as Glendree. He was aged 70 in 1994. I found no record of his baptism (about 1824).

6. Andrew McNamara, aged 60 in 1901 (died before 1911): Parish records show he was married in 1861 (to Margaret McEvoy), so he can hardly be the Andrew who was born to Martin McNamara and Bid Foley in 1843. But he may be the Andrew who was born to Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara in 1835 – if you allow a leeway of 5 years. - so I will count that as a success.

7. John McNamara, aged 30 in 1901 and 47 in 1911: The civil record of his marriage in 1897 (to Honora Corry) shows that his father was Michael. There’s a John, son of Michael McNamara and Margaret Halpin, who was baptised in 1863. Another success.

8. Lawrence McNamara, aged 60 in 1901 and 80 in 1911. There’s a Laurence, son of Michael Mac and Biddy Foley, who was baptised in 1831. Another success.

9. And of course Thomas McNamara, aged 72 in 1901 and 82 in 1911, who must be one of two baptisms in 1829.

That’s 4 successes and 5 failures. So, yes, baptism records are patchy – very patchy.

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Fri May 11, 2018 4:40 am

Thanks Sharon, I've made progress on your suggestions to follow up on the Madigans of Barnsley as well as Andrew McNamara (plus Johanna McNamara), but will report back another day.

Thanks Sheila for all your research on the completeness of the Tulla baptism records! A few thoughts on your listing that could alter your findings of 4 successes and 5 failures:

1) Men lie about their age. Especially widowers who remarry a younger woman. My gggrandmother's brother was born in County Clare in 1840. In the 1880 census, he was with his first wife and correctly states his age as 40 years old. His wife dies in 1893 and he marries in 1894 a 34 year old (the grooms age is mysteriously left blank on the marriage record). In the 1900 census, he is only 53 years old - this is one year younger than his true age when he remarried in 1894. Marrying a younger American woman worked wonders on the aging process!

I reckon Pat McNamara (#1 on your list) who was also a widower is the son of Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara born in 1820. So in the 1901 census, he (or his 2nd wife) fudged his age by 16 years and in the 1911 census by only 13 years. It could easily happen. His brother Andrew (#6 on your list) did not remarry and fudged his age by 5 years. We may have stumbled upon the Irish widower / non widower fudge factor for reporting ages.

Your listing highlights many discrepancies between ages reported in the 1901 and 1911 census reports. This makes me realize that Thomas McNamara (#9 on your list) in the 1901 and 1911 census, does not have to be one of two baptisms in 1829 (from my listing). I know you are repeating my conclusion from earlier, but surely this Thomas could have consistently misreported his age in the census records, and be one of several other Thomas McNamara's born in a much wide year span.

2) Transcription errors between McNamara and McMahon would be very easy to do. As an example from a discovery made today is Patrick McNamara (#2 on your list). In the 1901 census, he is not only living with his 82 year old father Patrick McNamara, but also with his 82 year old mother-in-law Winifred McMahon. But where is Patrick Jr's marriage to a McMahon in the marriage listing? For the 28 Nov. 1877 marriage, his wife Catherine McMahon has been transcribed as Catherine McNamara by mistake. Even as I type this short paragraph it easy to mistype McNamara vs McMahon so this is completely understandable. The priests writing the original baptism records could make this same easy mistake. And isn't Patrick McNamara #2 the son of Pat McNamara and Bridget Tuohy born in 1837? Appears Patrick fudged his age by a respectable 9 years in the 1911 census?

3) People move. In looking at the English census reports earlier for Barnsley Yorkshire, those born in the same county will state what village / town they were born in. The Irish census only reports their county, not whether or not they were born in Glendree or Tulla. It would be reasonable for McNamara's from neighboring parishes to move into Glendree especially through marriage and be reported on the 1901 census. I believe it is too strong of a conclusion to blame patchy baptism records in Tulla when they may exist in a neighboring parish (or not until 1860 as in the case of Feakle).

Anyways, for the McNamara families I have identified from Glandree as being most likely associated with the missing Civil War soldier Thomas, the children look very complete. Today, I found another son Martin born to Michael Mac & Bridget Mac in November 1830 that I somehow missed first time around. In addition to the John born July 1830 to John McNamara & Mary Kelly discovered the other day. For these McNamara families of Glandree, the baptism records are anything but patchy. It would actually be fairly difficult for the parents to fit any more children into the period I'm most focused upon (1830's, early 1840's).

As always, appreciate both of your efforts to help find the missing Thomas McNamara of Glandree.

Jim

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Fri May 11, 2018 7:07 pm

Hi Jim

Well I admire your determination not to throw in the towel, even when towels are handed to you. And I agree with all the points you make.
Thanks for pointing out that error. I fixed it this morning. Plus it reminded me that I needed to fix another error that I had spotted earlier in the year when I was replying to a query about Gavins in Tulla. In the 1846-1862 baptisms I had transcribed Fany Burke Brown (married to Michel Gavin) as Jane Burke Brown. There’s an entry for Fanny Gavin in the Calendar of Wills linking her to Daniel O’Connell of Kilgorey – she might be of interest to somebody. Anyway her proper first name is now restored to her (in red).
Back to the McNamaras in Glendree: it’s good that you found those extra two baptisms for Michael McNamara and Bridget McNamara. Yes, one of my question marks is Johanna – I’m still unsure about the other question mark.
You may have noticed a Bridget McNamara in the 1846-1862 baptisms, daughter of Michael McNamara and Bid McNamara, baptised on May 05, 1848. There’s no address and there’s a gap of four years between it and the 1844 baptism of James in Glendree, so this may be a different family of McNamaras. But then again, that family in Glendree was lacking a Bridget.

Sheila

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Sat May 12, 2018 6:43 pm

Hi Jim,
You mention that Thomas McNamara, aged 72 in 1901 and 82 in 1911, may have misreported his age, but I don’t think he did. Thomas’ death was registered in Scarriff Union in 1915; widower, aged, 89; address: Glendree; informant: Thomas McNamara, son of deceased, Glendree.
Going on that age, Thomas (senior) was born in 1826. The nearest baptism is still 1829. I do believe he was either the son of Michel Mac and Mary Cusack, or the son of Michael Mac and Bridget McNamara.

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Tue May 15, 2018 2:41 am

Hi Sheila, I continue to switch back and forth between Thomas Mac #2 and Thomas Mac #4 as being the most likely missing Civil War soldier from Glandree. While it is far too early to throw in the towel, I would like to do a 180 on the conclusions from my last posting. It is indeed likely that all the McNamara families of Glandree had several more children from those on my updated list (see below). And the Tulla baptism records from 1819 to 1846 are indeed patchy. Perhaps "patchy" is not the word, but there are three distinct holes where the pages from the baptism register have been torn out:

- March 1822 to August 1825 (several pages?)
- May, June, July 1841 (one page, containing 40 to 50 baptisms?)
- January, February, March 1843 (one page, containing 40 to 50 baptisms?)

Mary McNamara Madigan of Barnsley fairly consistently reported her age as being born in 1841. This allows the possibility that Mary is the daughter of John McNamara and Mary Kelly whose baptism was recorded on the missing page. This would account for the gap in births for this family between 1838 and 1845. And it was always a bit suspicious that this McNamara family had no daughter named Mary.

Of course, Mary McNamara Madigan could still be "M(?)" the child of Michael Mac and Bridget Mac. The NLI has this birth down as November 1840, and I've updated my listing accordingly. The more I look at the baptism entry I can work out the remaining letters for "Mary". The left part of the "a" shares the right arch of the "M", then a very weakly written "r", and just the tail end of the "y" below the "r".

Both these families (of Tom Mac #2 and Tom Mac #4) could have also had a child in the missing first quarter of 1843. Michael Mac and Mary Cunningham (of Tom Mac #1) were married in March 1824 so their first child could possibly be born in the missing year 1825. Michael Mac and Mary Cusack (of Tom Mac #3) whose last reported son Mathew was born in 1840 could have continued with additional children in 1841 and 1843. Finally, Thomas Mac and Margaret Hawkins (of Tom Mac #5), could have fit 2 or 3 children between the reported births of Thomas in 1821 and Margaret in 1825.

None of the missing pages would account for why we can't find "Elizabeth" of Wawarsing on the baptism register who was born in the 1830's. However, I reckon there is a better explanation than patchy baptism records. But still need to do further research on the Hornbeck family of Wawarsing with consideration of 1850's New York and America in general. This may lead to a perfectly logical explanation why Miss McNamara of Glandree upon her marriage around 1852 to the widower John Hornbeck would not want to be known as Mrs. Joanne Hornbeck (or possibly Mrs. Bridget Hornbeck?), but as Mrs. Elizabeth Hornbeck.
Attachments
Thomas McNamara listed in Tulla Baptism Register (1819 to 1846) rev1.jpg
Thomas McNamara listed in Tulla Baptism Register (1819 to 1846) rev1.jpg (496.74 KiB) Viewed 123717 times
Tulla Baptism Register is Missing Page for May June July 1841.jpg
Tulla Baptism Register is Missing Page for May June July 1841.jpg (135.1 KiB) Viewed 123717 times

smcarberry
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by smcarberry » Tue May 15, 2018 11:48 am

O.k., lots of analysis of RC records in East Clare, and still no way to break the impasse of who the parents were of Thomas, Mary, and Elizabeth. It's time to hit the books in England, because that's where the records were often far more detailed in this time period. I look forward to seeing that data.

I have looked over my notes on surnames associated with all the sponsors in the noted McNamara baptisms. I do have items for most of those, including Lillis, Sexton, Reidy, Cunningham, and Bermingham. There is nothing (obits, marriage notices, missing ads) that cross-references McNamara. I also have some items for Hawkins, and Forum member Tom McDowell is a source of info for McDole. I am not yet seeing anything worth pursuing.

Elizabeth in East Clare is interchangeable with Eliza, a well known name in the early to mid 1800s due to the prominence of Mrs. Eliza Browne of Newgrove House. My family had an Eliza b.c. 1830, and I have references to other McNamara women named Eliza before their marriages. Michael Donnellan's wife in Ballycroum started out as Eliza McNamara mid-1800s. (I also have Pat Donnellan of Clashduff married to an Eliza McNamara, having children in the 1880s.) I don't know a reason why someone known later in life as Eliza or Elizabeth would have changed her name from something else, but the most like candidate is a girl named Mary who wanted to be a bit different from all those other girls with her name. However, the involved McNamara family already has its Mary. My working assumption is that Elizabeth McNamara Hornbeck was baptized Eliza or Elizabeth.

For what it's worth, on the possibilities chart, John, Michael, and Thomas having children in the early 1820s through 1830, Glandree, look like brothers. Did they all stay or where did they end up ? It appears that Andrew McNamara is a close relative. If you can nail down the relationship, maybe that is a way to sort out these families. There was an older fellow Andrew who died in 1869, East Clare.

SMC

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