Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

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Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:48 am

Hi Jim

Good work by you too. And nicely organized. At times you have been able to relate the house to the corresponding plot in Griffith’s, but sometimes you have not been able to do that, of course, because sometimes there was no relation between the house and a plot in Griffith’s. The 1921 Rate Book shows that only 2 of the McNamara farms had remained intact exactly as they were in Griffiths (plot 45 and plot 60). Plot 3 became very much enlarged and was shared by a third person, namely John Jones, and other plots changed in a various other ways, which I will describe as far as I can in my comments here:

House 5: You believe that Pat is exaggerating his age (91), but it’s the same age that is given at his death in the May 1901, and I think we should accept it. I agree it’s hard to know who his wife is, and maybe he had two wives. (Plot 3 in Griffith’s)

House 6: Fine. (Plot 3 in Griffith’s)

House 13: Yes James, a carpenter living in Glendree, son of James McNamara married Margaret Bowles in 1871 and they had 5 children. I think it’s better not to speculate too much about his true age. I think James married in. In the Rate Book he has plot 26b and plot 28, both of which had been held at the time of Griffith’s by John Bowles – most likely the father of James’ wife. The record of the marriage shows that Margaret was from Glendree and that her father was John Bowles. That record gives Glendree, also, as James’ address, but I think he may have been born in another townland. As you say, we know that his father was also James.
Anyway, this household does not relate to any McNamara plot in Griffith’s.

House 17: Fine. I will accept that Patrick aged 82 could be a son of Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara, who, according to their address in the baptisms, sometimes lived in Uggoon and sometimes in Glendree. But I don’t think Patrick was married to Bridget Tuohy. I think it’s more likely that he was married to Catherine Corry and that Pat Junior was born in 1856 (I think I have mistranscribed Corry as Coony in that record).
Patrick Junior’s farm as per the Rate Book takes in the adjacent plot 23 as well as plot 24 and is now 25 acres. Plot 23 had been held by Martin Meany and John McMahon in Griffith’s. I don’t know if Patrick’s marriage to a McMahon had anything to do with the enlargement of his farm – and that doesn’t matter anyway – I agree that this household relates to plot 24 in Griffith’s.

House 25: Fine. As you say, this was plot 45 in Griffiths and was held by Bridget McNamara widow of Martin McNamara. The Rate Book shows it transferred intact to their son Lawrence.

House 26: Now here is where it gets tricky. I don’t think it is Pat, aged 55, head of this household who has what was plot 48, which had been held by Andrew McNamara (Sheedy) in Griffith’s. Yes, Patrick’s father is Andrew, as the civil record of his marriage shows, and he is from Glendree. But the Rate Book shows that it is Andrew McNamara who has plot 48, one of the three plots (47, 48 and 49) which had been held by Andrew McNamara (Sheedy). See House 35 below. So which plot was Pat living on. Did he marry in to McMahon’s? It's a bit of a mystery.

House 30: Fine. And because Michael named his eldest son Andrew, I am inclined to agree with you that his father is Andrew who, according to the baptisms of his children, lived partly in Uggoon and partly in Glendree. Yes, this household relates to plot 60 in Griffith’s.

House 35: Yes I agree that Andrew is probably the son of Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara, who lived partly in Uggoon and partly in Glendree. The Rate Book shows that Andrew McNamara has plot 48. In Griffith’s, Plots 47, 48 and 49 had all been held by Andrew McNamara (Sheedy). Plot 47 was land (11 acres) and a Herd’s house, which Andrew was leasing from Robert Kane, and which does not feature at all in the Rate Book (look at the Rate Book under “As given”, rather than by surname).

House 36: This Martin McNamara aged 42 was from Whitegate and married in to one of the three Mealy farms which went to make up plot 46. Martin Mealy aged 78 is not Martin’s step-father – he is his father-in-law. Another of those three Mealy farms also went to a son-in-law ( John O’Donnell). If you look at the Rate Book you will see that plot 46 is evenly divided between Pat Mealy, John O’Donnell and Martin McNamara. Therefore there is no relation between this McNamara household and any McNamara plot in Griffith’s.

House 48: Anne McNamara, according to the Rate Book, is living in a Rural District Council House. These houses were built for those considered in need of them and often built on a small plot taken from a farm, which was considered substantial enough to suffer the loss. Compensation was paid I’m sure. So sometimes the most suitable site for an R.D. house was some distance away from the original home, which in Anne’s case was in Uggoon. I can see from the Rate Book that Anne’s house was built in the farm of Denis Molony.
As you say, Anne (Halpin) was married to Matthew McNamara in 1867. We must wait for the image to become viewable – until then we can’t be sure who his father was, but we know from the 1862-1881 baptisms that Martin and Anne's address was Uggoon. And irishgenealogy.ie shows that they were still living in Uggoon in 1882 when their son William was born. As you say Matthew McNamara died in 1894, aged 70, in Glendree – maybe they were in their new house by that date. All of this means that there is no relation between this McNamara household and any McNamara plot in Glendree in Griffith’s.

House 51: I haven’t ever looked at this family and will just accept what you give. But I notice that the 664 acres in Uggoon Upper which, in Griffith’s, had been held jointly by 10 lessees including Andrew McNamara and Matthew McNamara, was, by 1921, owned by Denis Cooney – probably the same Denis as this head of household.

Now, what remains outstanding, after all of that reckoning, are Plots 42, which had been held by Andrew McNamara, and 43, which had been held by Andrew McNamara (Bawn) jointly with James Morony. These two plots were adjacent to each other and adjacent to plot 45, which was held by Bridget McNamara and later by her son, Lawrence). According to the Rate Book, plot 43 went to Daniel Moroney, and plot 42 went to Michael Moloney and John Moloney, who is leasing a garden to Andrew McNamara.

And now, as well, we must ask where Thomas McNamara and Mary Hawkins can have lived. There is no Thomas in Glendree in Griffith’s, but Tithes does show a Th’s McNamara. I suppose Thomas had died by the time of Griffith’s. Did the family just go away?

In Kilmore Glendree: I haven’t looked at these McNamaras but did note in passing that there was an Elizabeth aged 14 in the 1901 census – a daughter of James McNamara. I was reminded of Elizabeth in Wawarsing, but when I searched for more records of her I failed to find any. Three of James’ children went to New York – according to Tom McDowell’s list: http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... grants.htm. I suppose, if there ever was a connection with Elizabeth in Wawarsing, it was long forgotten.

Sheila

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:57 pm

Now I see plot 47 in the Rate Book. It’s owned by a Daniel McNamara, who also has plot 31, which had been held by Daniel McEvoy at the time of Griffith’s.

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:48 am

Hi Sheila,

Thanks very much for that additional detailed information. I believe it provides a few clues to solve a mystery you raised back in May 2018:
4. Pat McNamara, aged 91 in 1901, has a son Michael, aged 48 in 1901 and 66 in 1911, who should have been baptized sometime between 1844 and 1854, but I can’t find him.
First of all, I believe the Pat McNamara (age 91) and Kate McNamara (age 79) in the 1901 census are the parents Patrick McNamara and Kate Foley of the following children born in Glandree in the Tulla baptism register: Martin (1848), Winny (1851), Catherine (1853), John (1855), Martin (1857), and Thomas (1861). I believe the marriage of this couple is in February 1846 between "Patt McNamara" and "Margaret Foley" of Glandree, witnesses Patt Foley and John Bowles. "Margaret Foley" disappears, while "Kate Foley" has her first child in July 1848. This could be a second marriage for Patrick, not sure.

But where is Patrick's son Michael? From the Irish census reports he is born sometime between 1844 and 1854 as you suggested. At first, I thought he could be the "Martin" born in 1848 and they went by a middle name? But this Martin died very young, as they named another son "Martin" in 1857. So this theory was out.

I believe the Michael in the 1901 census is the son baptized on 28 December 1846 to Martin McNamara and Bridget Foley, sponsor Ellen Foley. Michael is the youngest son of this couple and appears in the 2nd baptism register, I mistakenly missed him when I listed their children out on a prior chart. You noted that Bridget Foley McNamara was a widow by the time of Griffiths in 1855. Her husband Martin McNamara could have died anytime between 1846 and 1855. But the worst period of the great famine was about 1847 so perhaps he died soon after the birth of his youngest son Michael?

If Patrick McNamara was indeed born around 1810, he could well be the brother of Martin McNamara. Despite a (likely) large age difference, Kate Foley could also be the sister of Bridget Foley. I believe that Patrick and Kate Foley McNamara adopted their nephew Michael McNamara - or raised him as their son anyway. Have my doubts that there would be an official adoption process during the mid 19th century in Ireland?

The other sons of Patrick McNamara and Kate Foley don't appear in Glandree in the 1901 census. Not sure if they died young? Or since the eldest "son" Michael would inherit the property, perhaps they all immigrated prior to 1901? If Patrick's sons John, Martin, and Thomas died in infancy, it would increase the odds that Patrick and Kate McNamara would adopt their nephew Michael.

Also of note is that Ellen Foley (likely sister to Bridget and Kate) married John Bowles in 1837 in Glandree. Their daughter Margaret Bowles married the James McNamara of House 13 in the 1901 census.

To conclude, I'm leaning now more toward Patrick McNamara (Griffiths Plot 3) being born about 1810 and being the brother of Martin McNamara (Griffiths Plot 45) especially if he raised his son Michael born in 1846. Perhaps this Patrick is an uncle to the Thomas McNamara that he shares Plot 3 with.

Your conclusion back in May 2018 was that the Tulla baptism records like all Irish records were very patchy and missing lots of records. After taking into account the missing pages in the Tulla baptism register for March 1822 through September 1825, and a few quarters in 1841 and 1843, I believe the ongoing search for the missing Thomas McNamara of Glandree has revealed the Tulla sacramental records to be fairly complete and accurate.

Thanks again for your hard work with the transcriptions & other assistance which has made this search possible!

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:30 am

Well Jim, the Search is possible, but the Finding is proving impossible.

No matter how much we try to “fasten down” the McNamaras who appear in such records as Baptisms, Griffith’s, Civil Records, 1901 and 1911 censuses, we are no nearer, really, to finding Thomas the Civil War veteran. I don’t know about you, but I feel that some of what I am doing is pointless. Yet I continue to be intrigued.

Yesterday I wondered why Thomas McNamara, who was married to Margaret Hawkins, did not appear in Griffith’s, and then I realized that I was forgetting that not everyone who lived in Glendree features in Griffith’s Valuation. There are those people who helped out on their fathers’ farms, and raised a family there without ever holding that farm in their own names, and there are those men who worked as Herds on other people’s farms, and those people who worked as live-in servants. I notice, for instance, that there was a house called Glendree Lodge – it’s marked on 2 of the maps in the David Rumsey collection: the 1813 Pinkerton map, the 1844 Arrowsmith. It may have been a hunting lodge, and, if so, a gillie, or a caretaker, or both would have been employed there.

I decided that it was time to look again at the first 5 Thomases in your chart of 16 Thomases on page 1 of this thread. I figure there are 3 who are still in the running for the Civil War Veteran and 2 three who are out of the running:
(1) Thomas McNamara born 1833 to Michael McNamara and Mary Cummane/Cunningham is still in the running.
(2) Thomas born 1832 to John McNamara and Mary Kelly is not in the running. He would have gone to live in Derryulk when the family moved there before the birth of the fifth chlld, Margaret. Two more children were born in Derryulk: Bridget in 1845 and Michael in 1849. Griffith’s Valuation shows a John McNamara in Derryulk Middle (plot 3). The death of a John McNamara, Derryulk, widower, aged 75, was registered in 1882; informant: Michaeal, son of deceased. If Mary Madigan, the sister of the Civil War veteran, belonged to this family, I think she would have mentioned Derryulk, rather than Glendree, in the advertisement.
(3) Thomas born 1829 to Michael McNamara and Mary Cusack is still in the running.
(4) Thomas born 1829 to Michael McNamara and Bridget McNamara, and who stayed at home, is not in the running.
(5) Thomas born 1821 to Thomas McNamara and Margaret Hawkins is still in the running.

Now, none of these remaining 3 Thomases has a sister called Mary who was born about 1840. In fact there is no suitable Mary in the transcribed baptisms, and no Elizabeth whatsoever in those transcriptions. It seems that their baptisms were not recorded. So I think we must allow that the baptism of Thomas the Civil War veteran went unrecorded also.

When we look at Tithes, we see that in 1827 there was a large number of McNamaras holding some arable land in Glendree – often just a couple of acres, but enough at that time to support a family:
Jno McNamara
Miles McNamara
James McNamara
And’w McNamara
Mart McNamara
Mich’l McNamara
Patt McNamara
Th’s McNamara
M’l McNamara
Th’s McNamara
Mich’l McNamara

Griffith’s shows only about 6 McNamara farms, so it appears as if some farms must have been vacated in the intervening period, and undoubtedly some were vacated during the Famine, especially when the Gregory clause was introduced, whereby people could not avail of relief if they held more than a quarter of an acre of land. But we must also remember that Griffith’s shows head tenants and conceals some sub-tenants. I think this must have occurred quite often in the case of fathers and sons. For instance, either Patrick, or Michael McNamara in plot 3 might have given a plot of his own, within that plot, to a son or daughter. I have noticed that along with the houses marked a and b in that plot, which I have decided belonged to Patrick and Michael, there is another house north of those at the border* with Maghera townland (in Feakle parish). It is marked a, b, c, d, but there is nothing to correspond to it in the Griffith’s list of occupants.
*The Loughea river is the boundary between the two townlands. The bridge over the river is barely noticeable, but there’s a yellow notice pinned to the trunk of a tree on the Feakle side, which has “Feakle Gun Club” on it.

I’m not getting anywhere much in this rather disjointed reply, but I suppose I’m trying to take due account of Glendree as it was before Griffith’s, rather than just afterwards.

Sheila

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:15 am

I just now suddenly remembered that we have evidence that the family of Thomas ( Civil War Veteran) was still in Glendree after the famine and after Griffiths: his sister Mary married James Madigan about 1860. I strongly suspect the Johanna who married James Madigan in 1860 is really Mary – not Johanna, especially as Mary McNamara and James Madigan started their family in 1861 (with the birth of James junior), and I think we should note that an Andrew McNamara, of Glendree, was one of the witnesses to that marriage.

Sheila

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:09 pm

Hi Jim

I am pursuing this Andrew McNamara who was witness at the marriage of Johanna (Mary?) McNamara to James Madigan in 1860, as I think he may be a brother of Johanna (Mary?). I note, by the way, that Mary Madigan called one of her children Johanna (born in England).

This Andrew may be the Andrew who married Margaret McEvoy in 1861. Their children were:
Michael b. 1862; sponsors: Johanna McNamara, Michael McNamara
Daniel b. 1864; sponsors: Patrick McNamara, Mary McNamara
Patrick b. 1866; sponsors: Pat McNamara, Mary Murphy. This child died.
Margaret b. 1869; sponsors: Richard Nash, Eliza McEvoy (Eliza married Pat Scanlan).
Andrew b. 1871; sponsors: Patrick McNamara, Catherine O’Neill
Mary b. 1874; sponsors: Denis McNamara, Eliza Scanlan
Patrick b. 1877; sponsors: Patrick McNamara, Ellen McNamara.

In 1901 this family are living in House 35, Glendree: Andrew aged 60, Margaret aged 60, and their children: Michael, Andrew and Patrick. Daniel is in America as it turns out.
In 1911, Andrew has died (no record) and Margaret is aged 72. Now her son Daniel is back home and is married to Mary (?) from Limerick, and they have a daughter, Margaret aged 2 who was born in America. Daniel married Mary in America probably. This is the Daniel McNamara who is in the Rate Book as owning plot 47, which had been held by Andrew McNamara (Sheedy) in Griffith’s (along with plots 48 and 49). He also has plot 31 which had been held by Daniel McEvoy – probably his mother’s father, or her brother.
So Jim, I think you were right in saying that the No. 35 household in 1901 relates to plot 47. The Andrew who has plot 48 (in the Rate Book) may be the brother of Daniel. He is not in the 1911 census because he spent some time in America - Tom McDowell’s emigration list shows that he went to America on Aug. 22, 1901, giving his brother Daniel McNamara, 40 Pacific Street, Brooklyn, New York, as his destination. I think that both of the other two brothers, Michael and Patrick, may have died by 1911: the civil records show the death, on Apr. 10, 1908, of a Michael McNamara of Glandree, Bachelor, Farmer, aged 45, and the death, on Aug. 17, 1908, of a Patrick McNamara of Glandree, Bachelor, Farmer, aged 31. (I never found the man who was kicked by the horse in 1904, by the way).

If Andrew (married to Margaret McEvoy) is a brother of Johanna (Mary?) McNamara, then he is a brother of Thomas the Civil War veteran. My theory is that Johanna McNamara was present at the marriage of her sister Mary to James Madigan in 1860 and that the priest mixed up the names. I think this Johanna is the Jane who had married Denis Cooney in 1856 – among the baptisms for this couple is the baptism of Michael Cooney in 1870 to Denis Cooney and Johanna Sheedy McNamara (p 36 left online). As you have noted, Jim, this is the family at House 51 in Glendree in 1901.

It's all just a theory, but I think it's a good theory.

Sheila

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:47 pm

Well, the theory may be a good one in general, but I realize that I made a mistake when I gave plot 48 to Andrew the brother of Daniel (son of Andrew Mc and Margaret McEvoy). I think that particular Andrew remained in America, and that it was Andrew the son of Pat McNamara, aged 55, in House 26, who got plot 48. This second Andrew is not in the 1901 census, but he is there in 1911, aged 33, and I think he is the Andrew McNamara who married Annie Clune in 1919 – that record gives his father as Patrick McNamara, Glendree.
So does this make Patrick, aged 55, another brother of Thomas the Civil War Veteran? I’ve looked back and see that you had already considered him to be a brother of Andrew when we were discussing the patchiness of baptisms on page 2.

Also, you were right to relate that household (No. 26) to plot 48 in Griffith's

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:40 am

Whoa, Sheila, hold your horses!
If Andrew (married to Margaret McEvoy) is a brother of Johanna (Mary?) McNamara, then he is a brother of Thomas the Civil War veteran.
There is no Andrew that has a brother named Thomas. Let's not forget that Mary McNamara Madigan of Barnsley Yorkshire consistently reported her birth about 1841. The family of John McNamara and Mary Kelly have a suspicious gap in children born between December 1838 and January 1845. The Tulla baptism has a missing page for May through July 1841. The only other Mary born around 1841 with a brother Thomas was the daughter of Michael McNamara and Bridget McNamara born in November 1840. But through your excellent analysis of the Griffith's Valuation we now know that her brother Thomas was living in Glandree in the 1901 census and could not be the missing Civil War soldier.

I agree that the priest likely mixed up the names of the sisters at Mary's marriage to James Madigan in 1860. But the Mary I am assuming was born in 1841 to John McNamara and Mary Kelly also had a sister named Johanna. And most importantly a brother named Thomas. I believe when this same Johanna married Daniel Hornbeck in Wawarsing her name was changed to Elizabeth since Daniel's first wife was Jane Anne. Johanna Jane Anne, the names are too similar. "Elizabeth" I might add is a matriarchal name which was common for the Hornbeck clan of Wawarsing and doesn't appear at all popular among the McNamara's of Glandree.

But thanks so much for providing so many new clues in every posting. Especially that John McNamara and Mary Kelly had a son Michael in 1849. Not sure I even considered that John and Mary would have children over a twenty year period from 1829 through to 1849. And you found John McNamara in Plot 3 in Derryulk Middle in the Griffith's Valuation - that's brilliant. Plus the death record for John McNamara, a great clue. I reckon since the youngest son Michael was the witness at the death of John McNamara in 1882, that his elder brothers James, John, and Thomas had either already died or else immigrated by then. Thanks very much for providing all this new information, your efforts are far from pointless!

And thank you for having a look for the Mr. McNamara of Glandree who in 1904 was kicked trying to get a hold of his horse. Since you cannot find any record of this tragic death in 1904 in Glandree, it is possible that Mr. McNamara was from neighboring townlands including Derryulk. In the same regard, I don't believe we should so quickly eliminate the Thomas #2 whose family moved to Derryulk from Glandree simply because his sister Mary McNamara Madigan of Yorkshire stated that the missing Thomas McNamara was from Glandree and not Derryulk. It is adjacent to Glandree. Thomas was born in Glandree. Generally, I reckon Glandree would be more well known. Derryulk, not so much. An American audience especially might be more familiar with Glandree from the poem "The Hills of Sweet Glandree". The search for the missing Thomas McNamara of Derryulk would have most people asking, "Where's that?"

smcarberry
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by smcarberry » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:12 am

Sduddy wrote:Hi Jim
....
House 17: ...I will accept that Patrick aged 82 could be a son of Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara, who, according to their address in the baptisms, sometimes lived in Uggoon and sometimes in Glendree. But I don’t think Patrick was married to Bridget Tuohy. I think it’s more likely that he was married to Catherine Corry and that Pat Junior was born in 1856 (I think I have mistranscribed Corry as Coony in that record).
Sheila
Not trying to join in the fine distinctions being drawn in this thread, but my McNamara notes seem to contain something to support Sheila's guess that her reading of Cooney for a Katherine who is a McNamara wife is actually Corry on the parish page. I have been thinking that Corry and Curry are interchangeable spellings of the same surname, and this might support that assumption. See the attached portion of an online biography by a McNamara descendant. You can read more on this remarkable woman at
http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/biographies ... keys=clare

SMC
O'Donnell, dau of McN & Curry.JPG
O'Donnell, dau of McN & Curry.JPG (122.72 KiB) Viewed 88705 times

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:59 pm

Hi Sharon

Thanks for contributing that piece of jigsaw puzzle, which fits so well. Very satisfying.

Hi Jim

You put a stop to my gallop there alright. I had been speeding up a bit, even, because the civil records show the death of an Andrew McNamara in 1869, aged 89, (registered in Tulla) and I thought to myself, “Hmmm. I bet that’s the Andrew who married Bridget McNamara and he is the father of Thomas Civil War veteran, so when Mary was trying to contact Thomas in 1869 it was to let him know his father had died”. It just so happened that I was going to Ennis today, so when I was there I made time for a quick visit to Sandfield house and asked for the record – hoping that the address would be Glendree. But the record could not be found in the Tulla book, which I think indicates that Andrew aged 89 was not from Tulla parish. Another Andrew was found during the search, however: the death in 1867 of an Andrew McNamara from Glendree, a married man, aged 65; the informant is also Andrew McNamara, Glendree (the relationship with the deceased is not given). I was by now very puzzled by all the Andrews.
And was happy to go and look at Derryulk for a while instead. But as you will see there’s no getting away from the Andrews. Michael McNamara, present at the death of his father, John McNamara, in Derryulk, 1882, is not in the 1901 census. But there is a Stephen McNamara living in Derryulk Middle in 1901, aged 70, who must be the same Stephen who was baptised on St. Stephen’s Day in 1829; parents: Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara of Uggoon. He is brother-in-law of a Bridget McNamara, aged 65, widow, Head of household. Two of her children are living with her, Maria aged 38 and Patrick aged 36. Now the baptisms 1862-1881 show the parents of Maria (Mary) and Patrick to be John McNamara and Bridget Naughten. Their 4 children were born between 1862 and 1869 (there may be more who went unrecorded). So their marriage was about 1860 – and will not be in the civil records, which begin in 1864, so we have no way of knowing who John’s father is. It may be John McNamara who was married to Mary Kelly, but I think there may have been other McNamaras in Derryulk, so we can’t be at all sure about that. I will leave them for now and look again tomorrow. Maybe you, or someone, will find something in the meantime.

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:41 am

Sheila & Sharon, thanks as always for both your efforts.

The Stephen McNamara (born 1829) living in Derryulk with his sister-in-law Bridget Naughten McNamara (widow of John McNamara) was most likely the son of Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara of Glandree/Uggoon. Stephen had an elder brother John baptized on 6 May 1819 who most likely married the Bridget Naughten living in Derryulk. Could the 1867 death record you found yesterday for the 65 year old Andrew McNamara of Glandree be for their father who married Bridget McNamara? We know they had a son named Andrew born in 1835 who could have been the informant.

Moving on with the search! We know very little about Thomas McNamara #1 born in 1833 to Michael McNamara and Mary Cunningham. From the transcriptions, we can only find 3 children born between 1828 and October 1835 for this family. Why such a small family?

With Sheila's discovery of the baptism of Michael born in 1848 in Derryulk, John McNamara and Mary Kelly had children born over two decades (1828 to 1848). Michael McNamara and Bridget McNamara from Glandree also had children over two decades (1827 to 1848); as did Thomas McNamara and Margaret Hawkins (1821 to 1840). Mary Cusack who ended up being from Teereera and likely married two times (Michael Sullivan, then Michael McNamara) also had children over two decades (1821 to 1840).

The Thomas McNamara #3 born to Michael McNamara and Mary Cusack of Glandree, we can find no other siblings. However, Sheila noted that Michael could have possibly remarried in January 1835 to Mary Walsh from Glandree. But the transcriptions only show one son Michael born in November 1835 to this couple. Not sure this is the same Michael McNamara, of course.

Which brings us back to the family of Thomas McNamara #1. Does their small family size reflect an early death by either parent? The father Michael McNamara could not have been the man who married Mary Walsh in January 1835, as his youngest son with Mary Cunningham was born in October 1835. But could the mother Mary Cunningham have become a widow?

In the Tulla marriage register there is a Mary Cunningham from Glandree who married a "Fahy" with no first name transcribed. The marriage date has been transcribed as 29 November 1838, the same as what has been handwritten with a question mark on the register. See below screen print.

I believe what appears to be "Nov" is actually an abbreviated first name for "Thomas", such as "Ths". Similar to the priest having abbreviated "Jhn" for "John" in the next entry. The two pages of this baptism register run from February to May 1838. And the subsequent page is for marriages more clearly labeled May through July 1838, so it doesn't make sense that this marriage would have taken place in November. An earlier timeframe in say April or May 1838 is more likely. Especially in light of the Tulla baptism of "John" on 19 May 1839 to "Thomas Fahy" and "Bid Cunigham" of Glandree.

Thomas Fahy and Honor Cunningham are recorded in the Tulla baptism register as having had the following children: Bridget (1820), Mary (1822), missing baptism pages, Catherine (1829), Anne (1832), Ju? (1834), Hannah (1837). If the 1834 birth is Julia, then the family had six girls, although a boy could have been born in the missing baptism period from March 1822 through November 1825.

The maternal death rate in childbirth would have been high in those days, so Honor Cunningham Fahy could have died in 1837. If so, Thomas Fahy with six children including an infant in late 1836 (baptized 1 January 1837) would have likely wanted to get remarried quickly, hence the marriage to Mary Cunningham around April or May 1838?

Of course, we don't know if the Mary Cunningham who married Thomas Fahy in 1838 was the widow of Michael McNamara (Thomas Mac #1 family). On the same day 1 March 1824, that Mary Cunningham of Glandree married Michael McNamara of Glandree, another Mary Cunningham of Glandree married James Molony of Feakle. So there was more than one Mary Cunningham about.

Assuming that Thomas Fahy did marry the widow Mary Cunningham of Michael McNamara, would Mary's infant children, including son Thomas McNamara age 5, take on the Fahy surname? Can we find no other information on Thomas McNamara #1 because we should be looking for "Thomas Fahy"?

Thomas McNamara #10 (the fellow on board the Emerald Isle to New York) would marry the widow Margaret Ryan Hinchey of Feakle who had two children by her first marriage. In the United States census records, sometimes these children were recorded as Hinchey and other times as McNamara.

The Tulla baptism register does not state whether or not either the bride or groom had been married before. Although to the right of "Fahy" appears to be written a "2". At least we know that Honor Cunningham and Mary Cunningham were not first cousins, as this would have required a special dispensation for being in the second degree of affinity. There is no record of a dispensation which is clearly stated in another Tulla marriage record from this period.

I could not find Thomas Fahy in the Griffith's Valuation of 1855 for Glandree. Perhaps a daughter is recorded in the Tulla marriage register: Mary Fahy married to John Keane of Glandree in 1848. In the 1901 Irish census there are 131 Fahy's and 140 Fahey's in County Clare, but none in Glendree. Would be interesting to find the Fahy family in say the Canada Census of 1851 or a passenger listing to America or Australia recorded as a combined family including the children of Mary Cunningham's first marriage to Michael McNamara.

To conclude, I reckon Thomas McNamara #1 has a very slim to zero chance of being the missing Civil War soldier of Glandree.
Attachments
1838 Marriage of Mary Cunningham to Thomas Fahy (NLI, Tulla Parish).jpg
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Sduddy
Posts: 1826
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:47 am

Hi Jim

Yes, that is a “Thos.” – not “Nov.” and I will amend it accordingly (in red). Thanks for noting that mistake.

Now I must confess that I was mistaken about Stephen McNamama, the brother-in-law in Derryulk, aged 70, in 1901. I now see that there was Stephen McNamara born in Derryulk in 1832 to Pat McNamara and Hana Keefe. I should have checked that last evening – I’m sorry about creating confusion – as if there wasn’t enough confusion already.
So when we go to Derryulk we are getting away from the Andrews after all. That Patt McNamara may be the one who is listed in Tithes as living in Derryulk Upper. Patt McNamara and Ellen (Hanna ?) Keefe had another son, John, born 1828, and he must be the John that Bridget Naughten married about 1860.

I looked again at Derryulk, Middle in Griffith’s and see that there’s a John McNamara in plot 3 (18 acres) and a Hannah McNamara in plot 4 (10 acres). This Hannah must be the widow of Patt McNamara. This family of McNamaras, who were already established in Derryulk, may have some bearing – or none at all – on John McNamara and his wife Mary Kelly moving from Glendree to Derryulk about 1838 and leasing the farm that was later labeled plot 3 under Griffith’s Valuation.
Derryulk is in Kiltannon D.E.D. and the 1921 Rate Book for Kiltannon is available under Research Support – Tulla civil parish: http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... on_ded.htm. This shows that, in 1921, plot 3 is leased by Michael Malone from William Beresford Molony and that plot 4 is owned by Patrick McNamara. It appears from this that John McNamara and Mary Kelly lived in plot 3, but their descendants had disappeared from there by 1921, while John McNamara and Bridget Naughten lived in plot 4 and transferred it to their son, Patrick.

About Andrew, who died in Glendree in 1867, aged 65, and whose death was reported by another Andrew from Glendree: I’m not convinced that he is Andrew who was married to Bridget McNamara. The baptisms show that couple had a child baptised in May of 1819. And since the register was opened that very year, it’s quite possible that they had a couple of other children by then. I will leave the Andrew McNamara death record aside and think about it again.

I will turn, instead, to Michaeal McNamara and Mary Cunningham, who, as you say, we know very little about. Their children were born 1828 – 1835. I agree that it’s possible that Mary Cunningham was widowed after 1835 and then married Thomas Fahy in Apr. – May 1838, who may, possibly, have been a widower by that time. But we are forgetting that, while the first baptism that was recorded for Thomas Fahy and Honor Cunningham was in 1820, that couple may have had children born to them before the baptism register was opened in 1819. And it’s very possible that Honor had done her 20 years of childbearing by 1837.

About first cousins marrying the same man – consecutively, of course – I do not believe a dispensation was necessary. Very often a man married a sister of his dead wife, and very often a woman married a brother of her dead husband. In fact this arragement often made very good sense. My mother, in explaining the marriages of her forebears to me long ago, explained that if a dowry had been paid, either in money, or in kind, and the girl bringing the dowry then died, her family felt that, in order to get the full value of that dowry, the widower’s family owed it to them to consider marrying one of her sisters with no dowry, or a smaller one. And she further explained that if the husband of the (original) girl died, her family expected that his family should support her – maybe in the form of doing farmwork for her.

Have you any thoughts about Thomas McNamara b. 1829 to Andrew McNamara and Ellen Reidy? The address is Knockadune, far south of Glendree, so I suppose he is a non-starter. The only thing he has going for him is that he has a sister, Mary, b. 1834.

By the way, I found Lough Blarnagh. It is in the townland of Gortnamearacan in Inchicronan (Crusheen) parish. Gortnamearacaun means Field of Foxgloves – surely the loveliest of all the lovely names. Lough Blarnagh in Gortnamearacaun is a long way from Blarnagh in Affog in Tulla parish, but a river flows south from Lough Blarnagh and maybe it connects the two.

Sheila

Jimbo
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Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:43 am

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:27 am

Hi Sheila,

Thanks for your feedback. Gortnamearacaun "Field of Foxgloves" is indeed a lovely name. It sounds like it would mean "Field of Americans". I will respond to your other comments another day.

Today I followed up on your earlier suggestion to do a virtual drive through Tulla using google maps. My goal was to have a look around Derryulk (the home of John McNamara and Mary Kelly from the 1840's) then go north on R462, and then cycle east to Lough Ea, before dropping down to Glendree. See map below, it's a 12.7 km journey taking about 52 minutes by bicycle. Unfortunately, the turn off to Lough Ea from R462 was not on google maps street view. The road north from Glendree also doesn't take you far on google street view either. I suppose it is good that there are some places in County Clare such as lonely Lough Ea that you still have to visit in person to see.

Until I can make another trip to Ireland, I'll settle for the description of Lough Ea from the poem,
The Hills of Sweet Glandree

O'er those bonny hills, so fair and grand,
The silent moonbeams play,
The stars of night, like diamonds bright,
Their sober light display,
O'er glens and streams, and mountain view,
So pleasant for to see,
Oh! The fairest spot in Paddy's land
Are the Hills of Sweet Glandree.

When Summer smiles o'er Erin's Isle
On many a lovely scene,
And natures clothes in richest robes
The hills of emerald green;
The violet blue, you then might view,
In valleys fair to see,
And the roses bloom in rich perfume
On the Hills of Sweet Glandree.

In memory's dream there long shall dwell,
Sweet thoughts of other days;
Of the joys we knew, with comrades true,
In youth's bright happy ways;
Of the Colleen Dhas whom none surpass,
With hearts so light and free,
And the days we spent in merriment
On the Hills of Sweet Glandree.

In the summertime, what sports were mine,
With my hounds, so fleet and gay,
To course about these hills throughout,
To the banks of Sweet Loughea;
There rich music swells like fairy spells
On the echoes wild and free,
Round that lonely lake where the cool waves break
On the Hills of Sweet Glandree.

Round Sweet Loughea, I love to stray,
Where the foxes play and hide,
There the wild wind swells o'er the heather bells,
And the trout and salmon glide.
In the month of June, when the wild flowers bloom
And deck the verdant lea,
That wide expanse would your soul entrance,
On the Hills of Sweet Glandree.

'Tis sad to trace what change took place
Since the good old times of yore,
When Erin's sons did cross the seas
To fair Columbia shore.
Those green old hills and sparkling rills,
No more perchance to see;
Afar to roam from their native home,
On the Hills of Sweet Glandree.

The coercion laws, they were the cause
Of Ireland's bitter grief,
And the tyrant's cruel that did her rule,
Would grant her no relief.
When Parnell cries "Keep heart my boys,"
The Sunburst yet you'll see,
And its folds of green, will float supreme,
O'er the Hills of Sweet Glandree.

And now, my boys, I'll bid adieu,
To those grand old hills once more;
For Paddy's land, both gay and grand,
Bright days they are in store.
To my comrades true, I'll bid adieu,
Where ever they may be,
And a parting glass with my Colleen Dhas,
From the Hills of Sweet Glandree.

Author Unknown, Date Unknown (prior to March 1903)
Source: Irish Standard, 21 March 1903, Minneapolis, MN
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Derryulk to Glendree via Lough Ea on google maps.jpg
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Sduddy
Posts: 1826
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:57 pm

Hi Jim

Thanks for the poem about Glendree.
Yes I know the point at which that road takes off from the R462 and goes wandering through the forest and down by Loughea until it finally comes out at that north-south road that goes through Glendree. As you say, Google maps allows us to go only a little way from that end.
Just at the point that I’m speaking of, there is a little bridge over a little river. This little river marks the northwest boundary of Tulla parish and flows southwards forming the boundary between Affick and Derryulk (upper, middle and lower) and between Affick and Ardboly Upper. Then it goes through Affick and then it forms the boundary between Affick and Eyrehill. Then it flows through Kiltanon estate where a landscaper probably designed the surrounding area to show it to best advantage. And then I don't know where it goes.

Plot 4 in Derryulk, Middle lies by that river (see Griffith’s map), and Plot 3 is adjacent to it. When you look at the Bing satellite view: http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... middle.htm , you will see that those two plots still hold their original outline, but they are planted with conifers now, so, if there are any remains of houses there, they can’t be seen.

Here is a death record I am puzzled by: 1884; Andrew McNamara of Tulla Cottage, aged 66, married, Labourer; informant: Bridget McNamara, widow of deceased. Where is Tulla Cottage, and who can this Andrew be?

Sheila

Sduddy
Posts: 1826
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:08 am

Well, I see now that Andrew of Tulla Cottage is Andrew McNamara of Tulla, who married Bridget Kerucan*, Tulla, on Mar. 04. 1862. The baptisms of four of their children are among the transcriptions of the Tulla baptisms 1862-1881: Daniel McNamara b. 1864, Michael Mack b. 1869, Bridget Mack b. 1874 and Andrew Mack b. 1875. The address is Tulla for the first three, but it is Bonavoree for Andrew. The civil record of the birth of Andrew (1875) gives the address as Tulla Cottage and his father’s occupation as Labourer.
And I see now where Tulla Cottage is situated. It’s at the western end of Tulla town on the 1842 map, not far from Woodlawn Cottage. Neither of these cottages is marked in the later 1888-1913 map: http://map.geohive.ie/mapviewer.html - click on Base Information and Mapping and scroll down to Historic Map 25” (The Cassini map at the bottom of the list is another interesting map).

Andrew’s birth (about 1818) precedes the opening of the register of baptisms in 1819, so it’s impossible to say who his parents are. He may not have been from Glendree, anyway. I notice that a Michael McNamara was born in “Bunardree” (a mistranscription of Bunvoree, I'm sure), in 1831, to Pat McNamara and Bridget Tuohy - it's just possible that this is a younger brother of Andrew.

*usually spelled "Kerwick"

Sheila

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