Hi Jimbo
I can’t get the blinding of the horses out of my head. That is a very strong and forthright statement by Bishop Fogarty. I’ve never before seen it and I don’t think I’ve seen it referred to anywhere. I looked at Ireland’s Banner County: Clare from the fall of Parnell to the Great War 1890-1918, (2002) by Daniel McCarthy, where seven pages of Chapter 2 are devoted to agrarian unrest. There are references to violence, but I found no excerpt from, nor any allusion to Bishop Fogarty’s letter. It seems strange that you had to go to the Northern Whig newspaper to find it, but I assume it was published by the Clare Champion also (not yet digitalised by the British Newspaper Archive, as far as I can see).
Note: Bishop Fogarty ruled over Killaloe diocese for 50 years, 1904-1955.
Good work on those Derryhallow McNamaras. I tried to find something I could contribute and thought this might be the marriage of Patrick McNamara, but the residence is just Maghera* and there were other families of McNamaras in that townland: 24 Apr 1923: Marriage of Patrick McNamara, Maghera, Tulla, son of Patrick McNamara, Farmer, to Margaret O’Brien, Deradda, Tulla, daughter of Michael O’Brien, Farmer, in Tulla church; witnesses: Michael O’Halloran, Margaret McNamara: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 323180.pdf
The Knockjames school records show three McNamara pupils from Derryhallow: James McNamara, Derryhallow, year of birth: 1869; Mary McNamara, year of birth: 1871; John McNamara, year of birth: 1871: https://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/cocla ... 3_1960.htm
* Maghera: not to be confused with Maghera in the parish of Feakle.
Jimbo, I’ve been reading a newly published book, No Better Boy: Listening to Paddy Canny, by Helen O’Shea, a really lovely account of the life of Paddy Canny, (1919 – 2008). The Kilmore McNamara family tree, which you set out on page 18 of this thread, includes an Anne McNamara who married John Canny in 1864 – see post by Jimbo made 4 Apr 2019 and scroll down to 1.6. Anne McNamara. You show that one of the sons of John and Anne Canny, Patrick, married Catherine McNamara of Glenboniff [Feakle parish]. And one of their sons, Patrick [Paddy], was born in 1919 - you say of him “Paddy Canny had a great influence on traditional Irish music”. The book opens with Paddy Canny in Carnegie Hall in 1956, but the next chapter is “Back to the Bog”, and includes a photo of the path to Glendree bog, where, on a clear day, Paddy can see across the West Clare countryside. In the next chapter, "Roots", O’Shea goes back to Paddy’s great-grandfather, Patrick, who leased land “in Curraun, on the very top of Glendree”. Two of his sons, Michael and Johnny [the man who married Anne McNamara], continued to live on two farms there. “Michael Canny’s property looks down the valley to Cloonagro. Johnny’s is the farm shaped like a sickle and this is where Pat Canny is born in 1867.” Although I’ve never stood in Glendree, and have no family connection to it, I felt very familiar with the place as I was reading – due, of course, to the long discussion on this thread, especially in the early years after 2018.
Paddy Canny is the best known link with the blind Fiddler, Pat McNamara, who came to stay in Cannys and taught Paddy’s father, Pat Canny, all the tunes that Paddy later learned. Helen O’Shea mentions several other pupils of Pat McNamara at various points in the book, and I intend to add their names to the topic “Paddy McNamara, Blind Fiddler (about 1820 – 1902)": http://www.ourlibrary.ca/phpbb2/viewtop ... f=1&t=7026.
Sheila
Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,
Moderators: Clare Support, Clare Past Mod
Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,
Hi Jimbo
Regarding the McNamaras who lived in Derryboy, in the townland of Derrycaliff, you noted that their children did not attend the nearby school in Ballinruan and wondered if a payment of a fee deterred them – see post made on Mon 7 Aug 2023:
Tom Walsh mentions the Reading Books sanctioned by the National Board, which became a core element of the work of the school. (see page 16). These Reading Books were the subject of a letter to the Irish Times on 12 Aug 2023 (just a fortnight ago):
Sheila
P.S. The caption on this 1888 illustration is "Children carrying turf to pay their school fees", but children also brought turf to the free national school right up to the 1930s or even later. The open fire was the only heating available and heating was not funded in the 19th century. Even though government funding was available from 1911, the practice of bringing turf to school continued for some time : https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-carry ... 41151.html. I don't know which newspaper carried the illustration.
Regarding the McNamaras who lived in Derryboy, in the townland of Derrycaliff, you noted that their children did not attend the nearby school in Ballinruan and wondered if a payment of a fee deterred them – see post made on Mon 7 Aug 2023:
In my reply I said that the National Schools were free to all. But, having read a bit more, I see now that I should enlarge on that reply. Michael Mac Mahon, in his article, “Education in the Parish of Corofin” (https://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/cocla ... orofin.htm), says that a system national education was established under government control in 1831, and, by 1841, a total of 33 national schools were operating in Clare. This means that only about one-third of the civil parishes in Clare had a national school by 1841. So education in other parishes must have continued to be provided by fee-paying “hedge” schools. I’ve found no figures to show how quickly the number of national schools increased and I cannot say how long Ballinruan continued to be a fee-paying school, but Joseph Power says that by the middle of the century there was a national school in every parish – see “Education in Clare” by Joe Power: https://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/cocla ... ation2.htm. Power also says that attendance at school was not compulsory until 1891, so it seems it is quite possible that some children received no formal education. In this article, “The National System of Education, 1831-2000”, by Tom Walsh (https://mural.maynoothuniversity.ie/968 ... l-2016.pdf), the author says “Attendance rates were very poor. As late as 1870, only 36% of the school-going cohort attended school regularly largely due to the difficult socio-economic circumstances of the country” (page 16). Even after 1891, attendance was not full attendance: Walsh says that by 1900, attendance of pupils had risen to 62% (page 18).Ballinruan National School had a Michael McNamara, age 12, enroll in 1887, but no distinguishing residence was reported. Perhaps the children of Michael McNamara's of Derryboy, a laborer, could not afford an education for their children? I suspect that when the three missing McNamara children of Derryboy, born between 1867and 1875, were of school age that education was not compulsory for children in Ireland.
Tom Walsh mentions the Reading Books sanctioned by the National Board, which became a core element of the work of the school. (see page 16). These Reading Books were the subject of a letter to the Irish Times on 12 Aug 2023 (just a fortnight ago):
Shortly afterwards another correspondent wrote to thank Áine Hyland for explaining why, in her childhood, old people would ask her what book she was in, rather than the usual “what class are you in?”.12 Aug 2023
A chara,
The Government decision to provide free schoolbooks to all primary (national) school pupils is very welcome and long overdue: (“Primary schools to get €96 per child and not to ask for parental contribution”. News, August 11th). It is, however, worth noting that when the national school system was set up in 1831 (almost 200 years ago) every school received a stock of free books. The books were renewed every three years. For a school with an average attendance of 125 pupils, 30 first reading books, 30 second reading books, 15 third reading books, six English grammers and six arithmetic texts were provided. Extra books were available on request. In addition, copybooks, slates, slate pencils, quills and ink were also provided, either free of charge or at a reduced price.
Yours, etc., Áine Hyland, Emeritus Professor of Education, University College Cork.
Sheila
P.S. The caption on this 1888 illustration is "Children carrying turf to pay their school fees", but children also brought turf to the free national school right up to the 1930s or even later. The open fire was the only heating available and heating was not funded in the 19th century. Even though government funding was available from 1911, the practice of bringing turf to school continued for some time : https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-carry ... 41151.html. I don't know which newspaper carried the illustration.
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smcarberry
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,
Sheila, the subject of education in old, rural Ireland is both fascinating and essential for gaining a true grasp of how, county by county, Ireland joined the modern world and left behind its status as fit primarily for plantations. I had to start down the path of educational reform in Clare because my family's Peter Carberry as the Kilkishen schoolmaster of the early 1860s showed that somehow my Carberry folk were literate even during the early decades of the 1800s, even in the most rural and underprivileged area of the county. After years of collecting whatever I could find on the topic of education in pre-1865 East Clare, my suspicion is that the O'Reilly family was involved in the re-settlement of Patrick Carberry in Clare from another county such as Meath or another Midlands location after 1798, in time for his marriage to Mary Molony of an East Clare family. My further suspicion is that there was an underground railroad for which the Catholic clergy were communications officers. In mid-East Clare of the early 1800s, the name Edmond O'Reilly crops up as a behind-the-scenes supporter of that effort (his estate was sold off in 1862, including the townlands on which RC clergy had their residences).
Against that background, here are some comments I can make to round out the educational scene of rural East Clare of the early 1800s. In addition to the hedge schools and prior to the changeover to National Schools being the mainstay all over, there was another resource for parents needing to get their boys ready for the priesthood. As illogical as it may have seemed, the Hibernian School Society, at least on paper in its charter, dedicated its effort to providing a secular education for youth throughout Ireland. Through the Parliamentary Papers website, I have gathered some data 1820-1829 on schools in East Clare operated by the Society, namely the local "patrons" for each school (typically one Protestant chief landlord in each locality, or a Church of Ireland clergyman). In Kilkishen, the patron was Rev. Adamson, who was C of I in the 1820s there. At one point a total of 53 students were enrolled, far exceeding what the Protestant families of the area could have produced among their own group. There had to be some Catholics in that number. In the same report, the school for which Daniel Wilson was patron, which would be the model agricultural school at Belvoir ((just south of Kilkishen itself), reported by the Society as one of its own, had 130 enrollees in 1829, making it obvious that RC farmboys attended (supported further by newpaper reports on how well Wilson was regarded as a landlord). While Kilkishen may have been above-average for East Clare in acceptance/toleration of its Protestant gentry, other schools in Clare at that time likewise had good statistics for enrollment, such as Newgrove (patron Mrs. Brown): 130 male & female; Garruragh (Mrs. Comyn, patron) 166 males & female.
However, there was another factor at play (beyond religion) in the pre-National-School era, and that involved parental attitudes toward an educational system based on use of the English language. On the West Coast of Ireland pre-1850, that would have been a serious consideration. For more on that, here is the link to a short speech given later in time (apparently 1877), in Liverpool (including an assessment of the situation in Clare):
https://www.jstor.org/stable/e216e8a9-e ... e6d7?seq=1
One last comment in this necessarily brief posting, the National Archives in Dublin has some material to explore, as does PRONI for its portion of the island in the mid to late 1800s. Here are handy links (see the second half of Claire Santry's post):
https://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2019 ... tment.html
https://www.nationalarchives.ie/search- ... /110158904
Against that background, here are some comments I can make to round out the educational scene of rural East Clare of the early 1800s. In addition to the hedge schools and prior to the changeover to National Schools being the mainstay all over, there was another resource for parents needing to get their boys ready for the priesthood. As illogical as it may have seemed, the Hibernian School Society, at least on paper in its charter, dedicated its effort to providing a secular education for youth throughout Ireland. Through the Parliamentary Papers website, I have gathered some data 1820-1829 on schools in East Clare operated by the Society, namely the local "patrons" for each school (typically one Protestant chief landlord in each locality, or a Church of Ireland clergyman). In Kilkishen, the patron was Rev. Adamson, who was C of I in the 1820s there. At one point a total of 53 students were enrolled, far exceeding what the Protestant families of the area could have produced among their own group. There had to be some Catholics in that number. In the same report, the school for which Daniel Wilson was patron, which would be the model agricultural school at Belvoir ((just south of Kilkishen itself), reported by the Society as one of its own, had 130 enrollees in 1829, making it obvious that RC farmboys attended (supported further by newpaper reports on how well Wilson was regarded as a landlord). While Kilkishen may have been above-average for East Clare in acceptance/toleration of its Protestant gentry, other schools in Clare at that time likewise had good statistics for enrollment, such as Newgrove (patron Mrs. Brown): 130 male & female; Garruragh (Mrs. Comyn, patron) 166 males & female.
However, there was another factor at play (beyond religion) in the pre-National-School era, and that involved parental attitudes toward an educational system based on use of the English language. On the West Coast of Ireland pre-1850, that would have been a serious consideration. For more on that, here is the link to a short speech given later in time (apparently 1877), in Liverpool (including an assessment of the situation in Clare):
https://www.jstor.org/stable/e216e8a9-e ... e6d7?seq=1
One last comment in this necessarily brief posting, the National Archives in Dublin has some material to explore, as does PRONI for its portion of the island in the mid to late 1800s. Here are handy links (see the second half of Claire Santry's post):
https://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2019 ... tment.html
https://www.nationalarchives.ie/search- ... /110158904
Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,
Hi Sheila,
Thanks for the recommendation of the biography of Paddy Canny, it looks very interesting and I see that it is available on amazon at a reasonable shipping cost.
With regards to the identity of the mysterious Patrick McNamara, who came upon the deceased John Garvey of Derryvough in November 1910, and was a witness at the subsequent inquest, I am assuming that he was the same as the Patrick McNamara who was reported as being from Derrycaliff in a petty session and in the Crusheen dog register. This may or may not be true. However, I am now more certain that the Patrick McNamara, reported as from Derrycaliff townland in the Crusheen court house dog registers, was, in fact, from neighboring Derryhallow (Maghera townland).
On 29 March 1909, Pat McNamara, of "Maughera", paid for a dog license for a male, red, sheepdog (#73).
On 30 March 1910, Patrick McNamara, of "Derrycalliff", paid for a dog license for a male, red, sheepdog (#276).
On 31 March 1911, Patrick McNamara, of "Derrycaliff", paid for a dog license for a male, red, sheepdog (#403).
For the three years, it is the same red sheepdog, and also the same Patrick McNamara (1876 - after 1923), of Derryhallow (Maghera townland), son of Patrick McNamara (≈1844 - 1898) and Bridget Guerin (≈1844 - 1914). In 1909, when reported from Maghera, he was traveling with Michael Butler (#74) from Maghera townland (and Derryhallow per civil birth records of children). Both times, in 1910 and 1911, when Patrick McNamara, Jr., was reported as being from Derrycaliff, he was traveling to the Crusheen courthouse with a neighbor or relative from Derrycaliff, and Patrick was listed below with a ditto mark. In 1910 , Patrick was traveling with Michael Hogan, of Derrycaliff, who was the son of Martin Hogan, as discussed previously. In 1911, Patrick was traveling with, and reported below, Patrick Guerin, of Derrycaliff, the son of Patrick Guerin and Julia McNamara, his first cousin.
Sheila, this solves the mystery of Patrick McNamara of Derrycaliff reported in the Crusheen dog register; he was definitely from Derryhalla/Derryhallow in Maghera townland.
Whether or not he was the same Patrick McNamara of Derrycaliff in the Crusheen petty sessions charged with being drunk on the public road at Ballinruan on 17 December 1900; or the Patrick McNamara, of unknown residence, who came upon the murdered body of John Garvey in November 1910, is less certain.
Shelia, thanks for sharing your discovery of the 24 April 1923 marriage of Patrick McNamara, Maghera, Tulla, son of Patrick McNamara, farmer, to Margaret O’Brien, Deradda, Tulla, daughter of Michael O’Brien, farmer, in Tulla church; witnesses: Michael O’Halloran, Margaret McNamara.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie ... 323180.pdf
Sheila, you were somewhat hesitant to state that this Patrick McNamara was the son of Patrick McNamara and Bridget Guerin of Derryhallow, since only Maghera was reported and there were other McNamara's in the same townland.
However, the occupation of "farmer" on the 1923 civil marriage record is solid evidence and disqualifies the other Patrick McNamara family of Maghera who was a "coachman". Patrick McNamara, residence Newgrove, servant, son of laborer Michael McNamara, married Mary Nestor, of Allaclouen (located in Maghera townland), daughter of laborer John Nestor (and Bridget Donohoe per 1855 baptism), on 3 March 1878 at Clooney chapel by the Rev. Daniel Corbett; Janet Armstrong and Mary Clune. The Clooney-Quin marriage register (1855 - 1881) reports that Michael McNamara was originally from Tulla, and confirms Mary Nestor as from Allaclouen (in Maghera townland).
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 060656.pdf
Patrick McNamara, age 46, was a widow in the 1901 census, living with his mother-in-law, Bridget Nestor, and with seven of his children ages 6 through 22 (as well as a 3 year-old "visitor", born in Tipperary, named Patrick McNamara). He was living with two daughters and a son-in-law in 1911. Patrick McNamara and Bridget Nestor also had a son named Patrick born in 1880 who is not living with the family in 1901 or 1911. However, this Patrick McNamara born in Allaclouen (Maghera) could not have been the Patrick married in 1923 as his father was a laborer and reported as a coachman, and not a farmer, in both 1901 and 1911.
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages ... a/1086856/
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages ... ra/370007/
When the 1926 Irish census becomes available, I reckon, it will confirm that the Patrick McNamara who married Margaret O'Brien in 1923, was indeed from Derryhalla (Maghera). I had to check the timing of this marriage in relation to the death of James Mack of Elmira in 1923 to see if Patrick married at the age of 46 was in relation to his inheriting the land of his deceased eldest brother. However, James Mack died in Elmira on 9th of May, and Patrick married just a few weeks earlier on 24th of April. Their brother John Mack applied for a U.S. passport to visit Patrick in Derryhalla on 27 July 1923.
[photo of James Mack from Star Gazette of Elmira, NY, of16 May 1923 — could not post]
There were two other McNamara's living in Maghera townland in the 1901 and 1911 census. Anne Mary McNamara, age 38, single, was a National Teacher living with her sister Margaret McNamara (age 30), and a servant Bridget Quinlivan (age 60 in 1901, age 76 in 1911).
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages ... a/1086845/
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages ... ra/370006/
Curious to know more about Anne McNamara, the National School Teacher, I googled the words [Ireland genealogy National School Teacher listing]. This led to the National Archives of Ireland website and their posting of "List of Teachers Employed by the Commissioners of National Education on 31 March 1905". My timing was very opportune as the National Archives only just posted these scanned images last week as part of their National Heritage Week of August 12 - 20th (I think, the dates of when things are posted are not terribly clear).
https://www.nationalarchives.ie/article ... s-of-1905/
https://www.nationalarchives.ie/article ... arch-1905/
Anna Mary McNamara's age was reported to be 44 years, 8 months (born about July 1860, prior to civil records), and she had been a teacher for 17 years and 6 months. She had received her education at "St. Mary + Munchin's Convent" in Limerick; her training college was "Our Lady of Mercy"; currently teaching in Clare at "Clooney G." (girls school, presumably), roll number 15280, and her title was "principal". Page 13 of 20:
https://www.nationalarchives.ie/wp-cont ... _Redux.pdf
Anne Mary McNamara was likely the principal of Clooney National School for Girls from when the new school opened on 18 February 1901, this date according to the history of Clooney national school at the Clare Library website. This history provides interesting details on the students and has a nice photo of the school girls from 1912. Unfortunately, no information on the principal Anne Mary McNamara and thus her origin in County Clare, and that of her sister Margaret, is a complete mystery:
https://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/comin ... oneyns.htm
A few possible clues. For both 1901 and 1911 census years, Anne Mary McNamara was living with a domestic servant named Bridget Quinlivan (single, age 60 in 1901; age 76 in 1911). When Bridget Quinlivan, age 93 years, spinster, of Maghera, died on 22 November 1922, the informant was "Teresa McNamara" of Maghera. Teresa McNamara (age 8 in 1901, age 18 in 1911) was the daughter of Patrick McNamara and Mary Nestor of Maghera:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 356958.pdf
Another daughter of Patrick McNamara and Mary Nestor, Ellie McNamara, was a "Teacher" in the 1901 census, and as Mrs. Ellen Broderick in the 1911 census, when she was living with her widowed father, had the occupation of "Teacher - Junior A Mistress" (see census links above).
On the "List of Teachers Employed by the Commissioners of National Education on 31 March 1905", Ellen Broderick' age was 26 years and 3 months; she had been a teacher for 6 years and 3 months; her education was at Maghera, Tulla nearest postal town; she had not gone to a teacher training school; and she taught at Maghera school in Clare, # 103109, and her title was "Manual Intructness". (page 5 of 19):
https://www.nationalarchives.ie/wp-cont ... _Redux.pdf
Was Patrick McNamara, originally from Tulla Parish, who "married in" to Maghera, related to Anne McNamara, the National School Teacher, and her sister, Margaret McNamara? Slight possibility. If either Anne McNamara or Margaret McNamara remained in Maghera, their civil death record, particularly if the informant was a relative, might provide further clues as to their origin.
Sheila and Sharon, thanks for providing feedback on whether or not the three children of Michael McNamara and Mary Griffy of Derryboy (Derrycaliff townland) would have attended school. Born between 1867 and 1875, they would have attended between about 1873 and into the 1880's.
Sheila, living in Derryboy (Derrycaliff townland), I am not certain what National School the McNamara children would have attended (if they had gone). Drumbaniffe National School may have been closer to Derryboy than Ballinruan National School? In the 1886 school register for Drumbaniffe N.S., Margaret Costello from Derravet and Anne Hanrahan from Derrycaliff, both age 6, were first enrolled. In 1889, Mary O'Dea from Derrycaliff first enrolled at Drumbaniffe N.S. at the age of 7.
Here is an interesting article and photos of "Drumbonniv National School" on the website "Disused School Houses of Ireland" by Edna O'Flaherty. The article states "the building that stands today dates to 1890" and that "the original school building opened in 1844".
https://endaoflaherty.com/2014/12/31/dr ... -co-clare/
Regarding whether or not the National School system was free for all students, I've seen conflicting evidence in the Ballinruan National School register for boys. The roll book data set on the ancestry website states "1877 - 1905", but the first year of the roll book is for the 1st day of January 1890, prior to the passage of the Irish Education Act of 1892. To the left of the column "Pupil's Name" was "Rate of Payment or Free" in the 1890 roll. Of the 14 students, half were "F" for "Free". The others rate of payment varied: John O'Dogherty paid "1s 1 d" per quarter"; Fred Shaw paid 2s. per quarter; Arthur Cavanagh paid 1d per week, etc. (page 4 of 90).
Page 5 of 90 is "Extracts from the Irish Education Act of 1892". The subsequent pages are the Ballinruan roll book for 1897, and the columns, which are typed "School Fees received from Pupils", have been crossed out and "No Fees for any pupil" has been written across.
Instead of stating that the National Schools were free, it might be more accurate to state that the national schools prior to 1892, could be free for poor students, others paid fees of varying amounts. So the illustration from 1888 showing Irish pupils walking to school with turf for their school fees might indeed be accurate.
The article “The National System of Education, 1831-2000”, by Tom Walsh, was very interesting. Sheila, I think it is very important to distinguish between "enrollment rates" and "attendance rates" of students. When Tom Walsh stated "As late as 1870, only 36% of the school-going cohort attended school regularly largely due to the difficult socio-economic circumstances of the country". The "attendance rate" for those who were enrolled in school was reported for each student in the school registers. But what percentage of children were enrolled in school in the 1870's or 1880's? Were the McNamara's of Derryboy unusual in not being enrolled in school or was this the norm?
It would be interesting to know if any other research has been done on the "enrollment rate" of pupils prior to schooling becoming compulsory in 1892. Although I am sure these rates would vary greatly by county, whether town or rural locations, status / occupation of parents, and other factors. Michael and Mary McNamara of Derryboy (Derrycaliff) were English and Irish speakers in both the 1901 and 1911 census; Michael could "read only" in 1901, and "cannot read" in 1911; Mary reported "cannot read" in both census years. Parents who cannot read, and presumably not write, would be less likely to send their children to school than those who were literate. Perhaps it should be no great surprise that I could not locate the McNamara children in the school registers of Crusheen, Ballinruan, or Drumbaniffe.
One other interesting point from reading the "Extracts from the Irish Education Act of 1892". While it is true that it became compulsory to attend school until age 14, there was a significant exception for a 12 through 14-year old to not be enrolled in school:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR_eIKvUjoU
Thanks for the recommendation of the biography of Paddy Canny, it looks very interesting and I see that it is available on amazon at a reasonable shipping cost.
With regards to the identity of the mysterious Patrick McNamara, who came upon the deceased John Garvey of Derryvough in November 1910, and was a witness at the subsequent inquest, I am assuming that he was the same as the Patrick McNamara who was reported as being from Derrycaliff in a petty session and in the Crusheen dog register. This may or may not be true. However, I am now more certain that the Patrick McNamara, reported as from Derrycaliff townland in the Crusheen court house dog registers, was, in fact, from neighboring Derryhallow (Maghera townland).
On 29 March 1909, Pat McNamara, of "Maughera", paid for a dog license for a male, red, sheepdog (#73).
On 30 March 1910, Patrick McNamara, of "Derrycalliff", paid for a dog license for a male, red, sheepdog (#276).
On 31 March 1911, Patrick McNamara, of "Derrycaliff", paid for a dog license for a male, red, sheepdog (#403).
For the three years, it is the same red sheepdog, and also the same Patrick McNamara (1876 - after 1923), of Derryhallow (Maghera townland), son of Patrick McNamara (≈1844 - 1898) and Bridget Guerin (≈1844 - 1914). In 1909, when reported from Maghera, he was traveling with Michael Butler (#74) from Maghera townland (and Derryhallow per civil birth records of children). Both times, in 1910 and 1911, when Patrick McNamara, Jr., was reported as being from Derrycaliff, he was traveling to the Crusheen courthouse with a neighbor or relative from Derrycaliff, and Patrick was listed below with a ditto mark. In 1910 , Patrick was traveling with Michael Hogan, of Derrycaliff, who was the son of Martin Hogan, as discussed previously. In 1911, Patrick was traveling with, and reported below, Patrick Guerin, of Derrycaliff, the son of Patrick Guerin and Julia McNamara, his first cousin.
Sheila, this solves the mystery of Patrick McNamara of Derrycaliff reported in the Crusheen dog register; he was definitely from Derryhalla/Derryhallow in Maghera townland.
Whether or not he was the same Patrick McNamara of Derrycaliff in the Crusheen petty sessions charged with being drunk on the public road at Ballinruan on 17 December 1900; or the Patrick McNamara, of unknown residence, who came upon the murdered body of John Garvey in November 1910, is less certain.
Shelia, thanks for sharing your discovery of the 24 April 1923 marriage of Patrick McNamara, Maghera, Tulla, son of Patrick McNamara, farmer, to Margaret O’Brien, Deradda, Tulla, daughter of Michael O’Brien, farmer, in Tulla church; witnesses: Michael O’Halloran, Margaret McNamara.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie ... 323180.pdf
Sheila, you were somewhat hesitant to state that this Patrick McNamara was the son of Patrick McNamara and Bridget Guerin of Derryhallow, since only Maghera was reported and there were other McNamara's in the same townland.
However, the occupation of "farmer" on the 1923 civil marriage record is solid evidence and disqualifies the other Patrick McNamara family of Maghera who was a "coachman". Patrick McNamara, residence Newgrove, servant, son of laborer Michael McNamara, married Mary Nestor, of Allaclouen (located in Maghera townland), daughter of laborer John Nestor (and Bridget Donohoe per 1855 baptism), on 3 March 1878 at Clooney chapel by the Rev. Daniel Corbett; Janet Armstrong and Mary Clune. The Clooney-Quin marriage register (1855 - 1881) reports that Michael McNamara was originally from Tulla, and confirms Mary Nestor as from Allaclouen (in Maghera townland).
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 060656.pdf
Patrick McNamara, age 46, was a widow in the 1901 census, living with his mother-in-law, Bridget Nestor, and with seven of his children ages 6 through 22 (as well as a 3 year-old "visitor", born in Tipperary, named Patrick McNamara). He was living with two daughters and a son-in-law in 1911. Patrick McNamara and Bridget Nestor also had a son named Patrick born in 1880 who is not living with the family in 1901 or 1911. However, this Patrick McNamara born in Allaclouen (Maghera) could not have been the Patrick married in 1923 as his father was a laborer and reported as a coachman, and not a farmer, in both 1901 and 1911.
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages ... a/1086856/
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages ... ra/370007/
When the 1926 Irish census becomes available, I reckon, it will confirm that the Patrick McNamara who married Margaret O'Brien in 1923, was indeed from Derryhalla (Maghera). I had to check the timing of this marriage in relation to the death of James Mack of Elmira in 1923 to see if Patrick married at the age of 46 was in relation to his inheriting the land of his deceased eldest brother. However, James Mack died in Elmira on 9th of May, and Patrick married just a few weeks earlier on 24th of April. Their brother John Mack applied for a U.S. passport to visit Patrick in Derryhalla on 27 July 1923.
[photo of James Mack from Star Gazette of Elmira, NY, of16 May 1923 — could not post]
There were two other McNamara's living in Maghera townland in the 1901 and 1911 census. Anne Mary McNamara, age 38, single, was a National Teacher living with her sister Margaret McNamara (age 30), and a servant Bridget Quinlivan (age 60 in 1901, age 76 in 1911).
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages ... a/1086845/
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages ... ra/370006/
Curious to know more about Anne McNamara, the National School Teacher, I googled the words [Ireland genealogy National School Teacher listing]. This led to the National Archives of Ireland website and their posting of "List of Teachers Employed by the Commissioners of National Education on 31 March 1905". My timing was very opportune as the National Archives only just posted these scanned images last week as part of their National Heritage Week of August 12 - 20th (I think, the dates of when things are posted are not terribly clear).
https://www.nationalarchives.ie/article ... s-of-1905/
https://www.nationalarchives.ie/article ... arch-1905/
Anna Mary McNamara's age was reported to be 44 years, 8 months (born about July 1860, prior to civil records), and she had been a teacher for 17 years and 6 months. She had received her education at "St. Mary + Munchin's Convent" in Limerick; her training college was "Our Lady of Mercy"; currently teaching in Clare at "Clooney G." (girls school, presumably), roll number 15280, and her title was "principal". Page 13 of 20:
https://www.nationalarchives.ie/wp-cont ... _Redux.pdf
Anne Mary McNamara was likely the principal of Clooney National School for Girls from when the new school opened on 18 February 1901, this date according to the history of Clooney national school at the Clare Library website. This history provides interesting details on the students and has a nice photo of the school girls from 1912. Unfortunately, no information on the principal Anne Mary McNamara and thus her origin in County Clare, and that of her sister Margaret, is a complete mystery:
https://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/comin ... oneyns.htm
A few possible clues. For both 1901 and 1911 census years, Anne Mary McNamara was living with a domestic servant named Bridget Quinlivan (single, age 60 in 1901; age 76 in 1911). When Bridget Quinlivan, age 93 years, spinster, of Maghera, died on 22 November 1922, the informant was "Teresa McNamara" of Maghera. Teresa McNamara (age 8 in 1901, age 18 in 1911) was the daughter of Patrick McNamara and Mary Nestor of Maghera:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 356958.pdf
Another daughter of Patrick McNamara and Mary Nestor, Ellie McNamara, was a "Teacher" in the 1901 census, and as Mrs. Ellen Broderick in the 1911 census, when she was living with her widowed father, had the occupation of "Teacher - Junior A Mistress" (see census links above).
On the "List of Teachers Employed by the Commissioners of National Education on 31 March 1905", Ellen Broderick' age was 26 years and 3 months; she had been a teacher for 6 years and 3 months; her education was at Maghera, Tulla nearest postal town; she had not gone to a teacher training school; and she taught at Maghera school in Clare, # 103109, and her title was "Manual Intructness". (page 5 of 19):
https://www.nationalarchives.ie/wp-cont ... _Redux.pdf
Was Patrick McNamara, originally from Tulla Parish, who "married in" to Maghera, related to Anne McNamara, the National School Teacher, and her sister, Margaret McNamara? Slight possibility. If either Anne McNamara or Margaret McNamara remained in Maghera, their civil death record, particularly if the informant was a relative, might provide further clues as to their origin.
Sheila and Sharon, thanks for providing feedback on whether or not the three children of Michael McNamara and Mary Griffy of Derryboy (Derrycaliff townland) would have attended school. Born between 1867 and 1875, they would have attended between about 1873 and into the 1880's.
Sheila, living in Derryboy (Derrycaliff townland), I am not certain what National School the McNamara children would have attended (if they had gone). Drumbaniffe National School may have been closer to Derryboy than Ballinruan National School? In the 1886 school register for Drumbaniffe N.S., Margaret Costello from Derravet and Anne Hanrahan from Derrycaliff, both age 6, were first enrolled. In 1889, Mary O'Dea from Derrycaliff first enrolled at Drumbaniffe N.S. at the age of 7.
Here is an interesting article and photos of "Drumbonniv National School" on the website "Disused School Houses of Ireland" by Edna O'Flaherty. The article states "the building that stands today dates to 1890" and that "the original school building opened in 1844".
https://endaoflaherty.com/2014/12/31/dr ... -co-clare/
Regarding whether or not the National School system was free for all students, I've seen conflicting evidence in the Ballinruan National School register for boys. The roll book data set on the ancestry website states "1877 - 1905", but the first year of the roll book is for the 1st day of January 1890, prior to the passage of the Irish Education Act of 1892. To the left of the column "Pupil's Name" was "Rate of Payment or Free" in the 1890 roll. Of the 14 students, half were "F" for "Free". The others rate of payment varied: John O'Dogherty paid "1s 1 d" per quarter"; Fred Shaw paid 2s. per quarter; Arthur Cavanagh paid 1d per week, etc. (page 4 of 90).
Page 5 of 90 is "Extracts from the Irish Education Act of 1892". The subsequent pages are the Ballinruan roll book for 1897, and the columns, which are typed "School Fees received from Pupils", have been crossed out and "No Fees for any pupil" has been written across.
Instead of stating that the National Schools were free, it might be more accurate to state that the national schools prior to 1892, could be free for poor students, others paid fees of varying amounts. So the illustration from 1888 showing Irish pupils walking to school with turf for their school fees might indeed be accurate.
The article “The National System of Education, 1831-2000”, by Tom Walsh, was very interesting. Sheila, I think it is very important to distinguish between "enrollment rates" and "attendance rates" of students. When Tom Walsh stated "As late as 1870, only 36% of the school-going cohort attended school regularly largely due to the difficult socio-economic circumstances of the country". The "attendance rate" for those who were enrolled in school was reported for each student in the school registers. But what percentage of children were enrolled in school in the 1870's or 1880's? Were the McNamara's of Derryboy unusual in not being enrolled in school or was this the norm?
It would be interesting to know if any other research has been done on the "enrollment rate" of pupils prior to schooling becoming compulsory in 1892. Although I am sure these rates would vary greatly by county, whether town or rural locations, status / occupation of parents, and other factors. Michael and Mary McNamara of Derryboy (Derrycaliff) were English and Irish speakers in both the 1901 and 1911 census; Michael could "read only" in 1901, and "cannot read" in 1911; Mary reported "cannot read" in both census years. Parents who cannot read, and presumably not write, would be less likely to send their children to school than those who were literate. Perhaps it should be no great surprise that I could not locate the McNamara children in the school registers of Crusheen, Ballinruan, or Drumbaniffe.
One other interesting point from reading the "Extracts from the Irish Education Act of 1892". While it is true that it became compulsory to attend school until age 14, there was a significant exception for a 12 through 14-year old to not be enrolled in school:
Had the McNamara children of Derryboy not been educated and immigrated from Ireland, I reckon it would have been a challenge to maintain contact with their parents. Perhaps that was the reason why the McNamara parents never left Derryboy, in sunshine or in shadow, in the hope that their children would one day return to Derryboy? Did the Mack children come back to Derryboy when summer was in the meadow? Or when the valley was hushed and white with snow? Or did the Macks return when all the flowers were dying, and their parents were dead, as dead as they may well have been. Even more sad, if the Macks never did return to Derryboy, oh Derryboy. Perhaps their American or Australian ancestors will come find the place where they are lying, and kneel and say an Ave there for thee. "And I shall hear, though soft you tread above me, and all my grave will warmer, sweeter be, for you will bend and tell me that you love me, and I shall sleep in peace until you come to me".Provided that a child over eleven years of age shall not be required to attend school if the child has received such certificate of his proficiency in reading, writing, and elementary arithmetic, as is prescribed in the Second Schedule to this Act.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR_eIKvUjoU
Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,
Hi Jimbo
I was just ready to reply to Sharon’s last when I saw your latest. I will give my reply to Sharon first and then reply to you.
Hi Sharon
Having zero information about the Hibernian School Society, I would like to find out more, but finding nothing online except for a couple of crumbs:
1. I found the rules for the Ladies Hibernian Female School Society founded 2nd July 1823. I was amused to see the opening lines refer to “the insubordination of the Irish Peasantry”: "There are few persons in this country endowed with the common sympathies of our nature, whose feelings, of late years, have not been frequently excited by the melancholy details of the ignorance, poverty, and insubordination of the Irish Peasantry …": https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000534972
2. On page 33 of this thread, Jimbo posts a link to Fr. Clancy’s tour of Ennis, published in Molua journal in 1945 (https://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/cocla ... _ennis.htm); Fr. Clancy refers to the “London Hibernian School” in Cooks Lane in Ennis. But when I looked at Brian Ó Dálaigh’s Irish Historic Towns Atlas: Ennis, I found no reference to such a school. There is a long list of about 90 schools in Ennis in the Irish Historic Towns Atlas: Ennis – click on “text” and scroll to “Education” on page 22 -: https://www.ria.ie/irish-historic-towns ... line-ennis, but the Hibernian Society is not mentioned. There are no less than three schools in Cooks Lane: the Lancastrian School, the Protestant School House and Our Lady’s School (which had been an orphanage). The first, the Lancastrian School, must the one that Fr. Clancy was referring to – I see among the references “Clancy, 1945, 25”. Possibly “Hibernian School” was the name it was generally known by.
As you can see, Sharon, I’m a Johnny-come-lately to this subject, and would like to know some more.
By contrast, there is plenty to be found on the Society for Promoting the Education of the Poor in Ireland, usually called the Kildare Place Society, which, being founded in 1811, is not as old as the Hibernian Society. The Kildare Place Society was the predecessor of the National Schools. The 1824 enquiry into education in Ireland looked into the rules of the Kildare Place Society, the manner in which they were being implemented, and the possible reasons for the many complaints by Catholic bishops. I gather that the Kildare Place Society started out as non-denominational and was cautiously accepted by the Catholic hierarchy at the time (Daniel O’Connell was on the Board of Governors), but, from 1820, gradually began to introduce Bible readings, the very mention of which (to the Catholic bishops) was like a red rag to a bull (and Daniel O’Connell resigned). Everyday Life in 19th Century Ireland, by Ian Maxwell (2012) has a chapter on the education system (p 149) in which he gives a paragraph to Charter Schools set up in the 18th century, but which were strongly opposed by the Catholic clergy. He says this was hardly surprising, and gives the example of a schoolbook entitled “The Hazard of being saved in the Church of Rome and Discourse against Transubstantiation together with a discourse showing the Protestant way to Heaven”. On the subject of the Kildare Place Society, Maxwell says:
* Sharon, this is another reference to the Hibernian Society, but, if it is the same society that was initially acceptable in the 18th century, it had become unacceptable by the early 19th century.
Going forward now to the National Schools (1831), I was interested to see that the Readers made available to pupils in Ireland were also used in Australia (for a while) – see The Irish National School Readers (Queen’s University, Belfast): https://omeka.qub.ac.uk/exhibits/show/i ... oolreaders
Also of interest to some people may be “The Daring First Decade of the Board of National Education, 1831-1841”, by John Coolahan, University College Dublin (published in the Irish Journal of Education 1983 xvii 1 pp 35 54): https://www.erc.ie/documents/vol17chp2.pdf. Coolahan explains that the board did not set out to replace schools, but providing funding to existing schools provided they made satisfactory application. This explains the huge increase in National Schools in the 1840s.
Here is an example of the work done at the Ladies Hibernian Society School: Needlework sample album highlight of Nottinghamshire sale: https://www.antiquestradegazette.com/pr ... hire-sale/
Relating to the 1824 Inquiry, here is an example of the examinations conducted: A Digest of the Evidence taken before the Select Committee of the Two Houses: https://books.google.ie/books?id=jXz-5K ... ty&f=false
Sheila
Jimbo, thank you for another great bundle of research. At first I was a little disappointed that you did not refer to what I’d contributed on Patrick McNamara, the coachman, but when I looked back (to 2 Aug 2021, page 32), I saw that I’d referred to him as Doc Mack and that what I’d given was just the link to Pat O’Halloran’s memories of him – see http://www.nestorsbridge.com/maghera/dr-memories.html. The home page is at http://www.nestorsbridge.com/maghera/index.htm
Good work on Patrick McNamara who was a farmer (not the coachman!). As you say, we don’t know if he was the Patrick McNamara who came upon the body of John Garvey. And good work on the other McNamaras in Maghera. I confess that I did not look into those two households, and so did not realize that one of them was the family of Doc Mack, and the other was a schoolteacher and her sister – this schoolteacher brought you back again to the subject of education and I found your research very interesting. As I said to Sharon (above), I’m very new to this subject. I agree that there is a big difference between enrolment and attendance. For genealogy purposes, enrolment records are much more useful than attendance records. Enrolment books were separate from Attendance books, I gather, so while one may have survived, the other may be lost. About “cannot read” in the 1911 census, I think this sometimes means that the person has developed poor eyesight and can no longer read. Glasses (spectacles) were not available to many people, plus eyesight problems were exacerbated because of smoke (at least this explains why cures at Holy Wells and by natural remedies were so often for the eyes). Of course I agree there were also very many who were simply illiterate.
Jimbo, in giving the link to Daniel O’Donnell, I am reminded of your cycling tour of Donegal in 1996 (see your post of 6 Dec 2021, page 34), when you met
Sheila
I was just ready to reply to Sharon’s last when I saw your latest. I will give my reply to Sharon first and then reply to you.
Hi Sharon
Having zero information about the Hibernian School Society, I would like to find out more, but finding nothing online except for a couple of crumbs:
1. I found the rules for the Ladies Hibernian Female School Society founded 2nd July 1823. I was amused to see the opening lines refer to “the insubordination of the Irish Peasantry”: "There are few persons in this country endowed with the common sympathies of our nature, whose feelings, of late years, have not been frequently excited by the melancholy details of the ignorance, poverty, and insubordination of the Irish Peasantry …": https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000534972
2. On page 33 of this thread, Jimbo posts a link to Fr. Clancy’s tour of Ennis, published in Molua journal in 1945 (https://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/cocla ... _ennis.htm); Fr. Clancy refers to the “London Hibernian School” in Cooks Lane in Ennis. But when I looked at Brian Ó Dálaigh’s Irish Historic Towns Atlas: Ennis, I found no reference to such a school. There is a long list of about 90 schools in Ennis in the Irish Historic Towns Atlas: Ennis – click on “text” and scroll to “Education” on page 22 -: https://www.ria.ie/irish-historic-towns ... line-ennis, but the Hibernian Society is not mentioned. There are no less than three schools in Cooks Lane: the Lancastrian School, the Protestant School House and Our Lady’s School (which had been an orphanage). The first, the Lancastrian School, must the one that Fr. Clancy was referring to – I see among the references “Clancy, 1945, 25”. Possibly “Hibernian School” was the name it was generally known by.
As you can see, Sharon, I’m a Johnny-come-lately to this subject, and would like to know some more.
By contrast, there is plenty to be found on the Society for Promoting the Education of the Poor in Ireland, usually called the Kildare Place Society, which, being founded in 1811, is not as old as the Hibernian Society. The Kildare Place Society was the predecessor of the National Schools. The 1824 enquiry into education in Ireland looked into the rules of the Kildare Place Society, the manner in which they were being implemented, and the possible reasons for the many complaints by Catholic bishops. I gather that the Kildare Place Society started out as non-denominational and was cautiously accepted by the Catholic hierarchy at the time (Daniel O’Connell was on the Board of Governors), but, from 1820, gradually began to introduce Bible readings, the very mention of which (to the Catholic bishops) was like a red rag to a bull (and Daniel O’Connell resigned). Everyday Life in 19th Century Ireland, by Ian Maxwell (2012) has a chapter on the education system (p 149) in which he gives a paragraph to Charter Schools set up in the 18th century, but which were strongly opposed by the Catholic clergy. He says this was hardly surprising, and gives the example of a schoolbook entitled “The Hazard of being saved in the Church of Rome and Discourse against Transubstantiation together with a discourse showing the Protestant way to Heaven”. On the subject of the Kildare Place Society, Maxwell says:
Maxwell goes on to explain that in 1820 the Kildare Place Society abandoned its neutral stance and began to fund the schools of various Protestant proselytising societies “such as the London Hibernian Society*, the Baptist Society and the Association for Discountenancing Vice”.Educationally the society was a considerable success, publishing the first major series of sequential textbooks in the British Isles, establishing model schools for the training of teachers, and pioneering the creation of an efficient system of school inspection. By 1820 the society was operating 381 schools, enrolling 26,474 pupils.
* Sharon, this is another reference to the Hibernian Society, but, if it is the same society that was initially acceptable in the 18th century, it had become unacceptable by the early 19th century.
Going forward now to the National Schools (1831), I was interested to see that the Readers made available to pupils in Ireland were also used in Australia (for a while) – see The Irish National School Readers (Queen’s University, Belfast): https://omeka.qub.ac.uk/exhibits/show/i ... oolreaders
Also of interest to some people may be “The Daring First Decade of the Board of National Education, 1831-1841”, by John Coolahan, University College Dublin (published in the Irish Journal of Education 1983 xvii 1 pp 35 54): https://www.erc.ie/documents/vol17chp2.pdf. Coolahan explains that the board did not set out to replace schools, but providing funding to existing schools provided they made satisfactory application. This explains the huge increase in National Schools in the 1840s.
Here is an example of the work done at the Ladies Hibernian Society School: Needlework sample album highlight of Nottinghamshire sale: https://www.antiquestradegazette.com/pr ... hire-sale/
Relating to the 1824 Inquiry, here is an example of the examinations conducted: A Digest of the Evidence taken before the Select Committee of the Two Houses: https://books.google.ie/books?id=jXz-5K ... ty&f=false
Sheila
Jimbo, thank you for another great bundle of research. At first I was a little disappointed that you did not refer to what I’d contributed on Patrick McNamara, the coachman, but when I looked back (to 2 Aug 2021, page 32), I saw that I’d referred to him as Doc Mack and that what I’d given was just the link to Pat O’Halloran’s memories of him – see http://www.nestorsbridge.com/maghera/dr-memories.html. The home page is at http://www.nestorsbridge.com/maghera/index.htm
Good work on Patrick McNamara who was a farmer (not the coachman!). As you say, we don’t know if he was the Patrick McNamara who came upon the body of John Garvey. And good work on the other McNamaras in Maghera. I confess that I did not look into those two households, and so did not realize that one of them was the family of Doc Mack, and the other was a schoolteacher and her sister – this schoolteacher brought you back again to the subject of education and I found your research very interesting. As I said to Sharon (above), I’m very new to this subject. I agree that there is a big difference between enrolment and attendance. For genealogy purposes, enrolment records are much more useful than attendance records. Enrolment books were separate from Attendance books, I gather, so while one may have survived, the other may be lost. About “cannot read” in the 1911 census, I think this sometimes means that the person has developed poor eyesight and can no longer read. Glasses (spectacles) were not available to many people, plus eyesight problems were exacerbated because of smoke (at least this explains why cures at Holy Wells and by natural remedies were so often for the eyes). Of course I agree there were also very many who were simply illiterate.
Jimbo, in giving the link to Daniel O’Donnell, I am reminded of your cycling tour of Donegal in 1996 (see your post of 6 Dec 2021, page 34), when you met
In my reply I guessed that the crooner was Daniel O’Donnell. The song “Danny Boy” had been recorded by very many, including John McCormack. Here it is again, sung (1993) by Sinead O’Connor, who died recently. If you bear with it, you will see that she adds a verse that is not in the Daniel O’Donnell version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PweUGhCZNiMa dozen Irish ladies of a certain age who seemed terribly excited and could hardly speak to tell me what was going on. Some Irish crooner was shooting a music video and singing about returning home from London and that his heart would always lead him back to Donegal?
Sheila
-
smcarberry
- Posts: 1282
- Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:31 pm
- Location: USA
Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,
Sheila, I have used Google Books to reach some historical material that may provide the insights you seek and/or may inspire further curiosity on your part. I have been aware of the Society with the long name regarding promoting education for the Irish poor, also known (for short) as the Kildare Place Society. It turns out that the Hibernian Society likewise was originally constituted with a long, convoluted name, a part of which referred to circulating Scriptures so a short name likewise came into vogue.
In this 1814 publication, the official name is officially established:
p. 3 "The Plan"
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Re ... frontcover
Additional information comes from the Kildare Place Society, which reflects on the vigor of the Hibernian Society in Ireland by 1824, in a report published that year, providing in tabular form its own society's efforts combined with other societies on educational campaigns around the island:
1824 publication of the Society for the promoting the Education of the Poor of Ireland [aka Kildare Place Society]
p. 626 Appendix no. 228
“AN ACCOUNT of the Number of Schools… also in connection with other Societies…
...
[table of entries]
With this Society, and with the London Hibernian Society…. 245 [schools]
…
With this Society, and with the Munster Hibernian Society...95”
(other entries shown include, among others, the Baptist Society, the Irish Society, and the Wesleyan Methodist Missionary Society)
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Re ... frontcover
Note: trying to adequately convey the typeface and fonts used in these historical publications is very difficult with a computer's keyboard.
SMC
In this 1814 publication, the official name is officially established:
p. 3 "The Plan"
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Re ... frontcover
On p. 24 the Society's Eighth Report provides details of progress in all Irish counties in which students had been recorded as regularly attending. Co. Clare is not on the list.[Section] 1 [One]
That the designation of this Society be “THE HIBERNIAN SOCIETY,” for establishing Schools, and circulating the Holy Scriptures in IRELAND [in a smaller all-caps font].
Additional information comes from the Kildare Place Society, which reflects on the vigor of the Hibernian Society in Ireland by 1824, in a report published that year, providing in tabular form its own society's efforts combined with other societies on educational campaigns around the island:
1824 publication of the Society for the promoting the Education of the Poor of Ireland [aka Kildare Place Society]
p. 626 Appendix no. 228
“AN ACCOUNT of the Number of Schools… also in connection with other Societies…
...
[table of entries]
With this Society, and with the London Hibernian Society…. 245 [schools]
…
With this Society, and with the Munster Hibernian Society...95”
(other entries shown include, among others, the Baptist Society, the Irish Society, and the Wesleyan Methodist Missionary Society)
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Re ... frontcover
Note: trying to adequately convey the typeface and fonts used in these historical publications is very difficult with a computer's keyboard.
SMC
Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,
Hi Sheila,
Thanks for providing the link to the family website of Patrick McNamara and Mary Nestor of Maghera townland, again, I had most definitely forgotten that you had posted the link two years ago in August 2021. Looking back at your posting, the reporting of Patrick McNamara as a "labourer" in his death record, when he was a "coachman" (as reported in the census reports), was an example of the laziness of the civil reporting authorities. And this was irritating to you as the occupations of "farmer", a profession such as coachman or blacksmith, and "labourer" reflect very distinct social classes in Ireland. I was not aware of this aspect of Irish society until reading this forum. As far as the USA, I would never have thought there was a great distinction between a 19th century farmer in Iowa and an hourly laborer in New York City. But now I wonder if my Irish ancestors, who were comfortable farmers in the USA, were more likely to have been of the farming or laborer class back in Ireland prior to the Famine.
The McNamara website, Nestor's Bridge, was very well done and enjoyable to read. Great photos throughout the various pages. Their genealogy research was back in the olden days when the Irish baptism records were on microfilm and having to order individual Irish civil records — now both available on-line and free.
The source for the 1878 marriage record used for their research was the Catholic marriage record, and not the civil marriage record, which provides the names of the fathers of the bride and groom:
Patrick McNamara, residence Newgrove, servant, son of laborer Michael McNamara, married Mary Nestor, of Allaclouen (located in Maghera townland), daughter of laborer John Nestor (and Bridget Donohoe per 1855 baptism), on 3 March 1878 at Clooney chapel by the Rev. Daniel Corbett; Janet Armstrong and Mary Clune.
Sheila, we've researched nearly all the McNamara families in Tulla Parish. Patrick McNamara, married to Mary Nestor, of Maghera, must be the "Patrick Mac" baptized on 22 April 1855, residence Newgrove, father "Michael Mac", in the Tulla baptism register, 1846-1864.
There are two difficult twists that may have created a stumbling block:
1) the use of "Mac" versus McNamara, as well as difficulty in viewing microfilm versus your transcriptions.
2) I am fairly certain that the Tulla priest made a mistake in the 1855 baptism entry and reported "Mary Donohoe" as the mother and not the baptism sponsor. And the correct mother was "Ellen Keran", who was reported as the baptism sponsor. Michael McNamara and Ellen Kearan / Kerin of Newgrove would go on to have two additional children in 1858 and 1861.
Sheila, while searching for the missing Civil War soldier Thomas McNamara of Glandree we have noted many mistakes by the Tulla priest especially with the names of the bride in the marriage records, and mothers reported in the baptism records. I am fairly certain that the baptism of Patrick McNamara in 1855 is one more mistake. Unfortunately, I cannot locate a marriage record for a Michael McNamara and Ellen Kearan to prove this theory (or a marriage record with Mary Donohue to disprove the theory). Perhaps the marriage was in Feakle Parish with records starting in 1860 (or I simply missed it).
There are a whopping 98 family trees on the ancestry website for Patrick McNamara married to Mary Nestor in 1878. The prevailing view is that Patrick McNamara was born on 5 March 1853 in Tulla. And for those who included his parents, to John McNamara and a Mary Quilty or Mary Conway or Ellen Broderick. Not one single family tree has his father as Michael McNamara, despite his civil marriage record of 1878, freely available on-line, stating so.
UPDATE: Sheila discovered marriage of Michael McNamara and Ellen Kerin in the Quin-Clooney marriage register, as well as new information on their son Michael. See her next posting; new information now reflected below:
Michael McNamara married Ellen Kerin, both from Carahan, on 3 February 1839; witnesses Fergus Kerin, Patt and Margaret McNamara (Quin-Clooney marriages 1833-1855).
Possibly Ellen Kearan? An Ellen McNamara, widow, age 80 years, died on 23 October 1899 at Tulla workhouse (more like a hospital by this time); informant Michael Molony of the workhouse. Did not search for a possible civil death record for Michael McNamara of Newgrove.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 633599.pdf
Michael McNamara and Ellen Kerin / Kearan, of Carahan, and then later Newgrove, were the parents of one child baptized in Quin-Clooney parish, and three children baptized in Tulla Parish:
1.0 James McNamara (1845 - unknown), residence Carrahan; father Michael McNamara; mother Ellen Kerin; was baptized on 28 December 1845, sponsor Eliza McMahon (Quin-Clooney baptisms 1816 - 1855).
Later whereabouts unknown.
2.0 Patrick McNamara (1855 - 1941), "Patrick Mac", residence Newgrove; father Michael Mac; mother Mary Donohoe; was baptized on 22 April 1855, sponsor Ellen Keran (Tulla baptisms 1846 - 1862). Names of mother and baptism sponsor have been incorrectly swapped. See discussion above. <Maghera, Newgrove, House 12; House 33>
See McNamara- Nestor family tree on nestorsbridge website for marriage to Mary Nestor and their children:
http://www.nestorsbridge.com/maghera/timeline-a.html
Interestingly, Patrick McNamara went to America along with three of his children in 1905, and returned to Ireland, as documented on this page of the Nestor's Bridge website:
http://www.nestorsbridge.com/maghera/Ellis-Island.html
3.0 Mary McNamara (1858 - unknown), residence Newgrove; father Michael McNamara; mother Ellen Kearan; was baptized on 16 October 1858, sponsor Ellen O'Brien (Tulla baptisms 1846 - 1862).
Later whereabouts unknown (not researched).
4.0 Michael McNamara (1861 - unknown), residence Newgrove; father Michael McNamara; mother Ellen Kerin; was baptized on 7 October 1861, sponsor Mary Meagher (Tulla baptisms 1846 - 1862).
Michael McNamara, labourer, Piercetown, son of Michael McNamara, farmer, was married to Mary Dargan, Gurrawn, Borris, daughter of Thomas Dargan, labourer, on 13 August 1895, in TwomileBorris chapel, Thurles Union, Co. Tipperary; witnesses: Patrick Carey, Mary Fogarty.
Mary MacNamara, at Grawn (Tipperary), married, aged 37, (in child-birth) died on 11 November 1900; informant: Michael McNamara of Grawn.
............................. 3.1 Patrick McNamara (1898 - unknown), was born on 18 March 1898, residence Grawn, Tipperary, father reported as labourer (District of Littleton in the Union of Thurles). Living with uncle, Patrick McNamara, in Maghera in 1901 census. <Maghera, Newgrove, House 12; unknown>
************************
From reading the various pages on the Nestor's Bridge website, it is clear that Patrick McNamara (1855 - 1941) of Maghera, married to Mary Nestor, would not have been related to their Maghera neighbors, Anne McNamara, the National School Teacher, and her sister Margaret. On their visits to Ireland, they interviewed numerous locals and not one ever mentioned that the McNamara sisters were their relations, which was always only a slight possibility.
Reporting an accurate age for a National School teacher was important due to their pension and retirement based upon their age. Thus, it was not difficult to discover the civil death record for Anne Mary McNamara, born about 1860.
Anna Mary McNamara, age 78 years, teacher, died at Maghera on 1 December 1938; informant Margaret Hehir, present at death Maghera (Scariff registration).
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 273585.pdf
Did Anna Mary's sister Margaret get married to a Hehir? Not the most likely explanation as the Hehir family were next door neighbors (House #31) to the Anne Mary McNamara household (House #32) in the 1911 census. William Hehir and Bridget Reidy had a daughter, Margaret, born in 1913; she would have been 25 years old in 1938 when she was the informant for her neighbor, Anna Mary McNamara:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 588995.pdf
It appears that Bridget Reidy Hehir was not just a neighbor but a relative of Anne Mary McNamara. After finding Margaret McNamara's civil death record in 1919 in Maghera, I came to the conclusion that the two McNamara women had deep roots in Quin-Clooney Parish, if not in Maghera. A more thorough search for McNamara and its variations in the Quin-Clooney baptism register revealed that "Anne Mary Mack" was indeed baptized in July 1860, the same exact month and year as I had calculated for Anne Mary McNamara from her data reported on the "List of Teachers Employed by the Commissioners of National Education on 31 March 1905" (National Archives of Ireland). "Anne Mary Mack" was baptized on 22 July 1860, parents were Peter McNamara and Margaret Reidy of Maghera.
Peter McNamara and Margaret Reidy were the parents of seven children in the Quin-Clooney baptism register between 1859 and 1868. But little other information is known about them. Who were their parents? Where living at 1855 Griffith Valuation? Marriage location or date? Civil death records? What happened to their three sons? While the identities of the Anne Mary McNamara, the National School Teacher of Clooney Girls School, and her sister Margaret, are now known, there are still many open questions.
1.0 James McNamara (1859 - unknown), residence "Mauhera", was baptized on 20 March 1859, sponsors Thomas Halloran and Mary Halloran (Clooney-Quin baptisms 1855-1880).
2.0 Anne Mary McNamara (1860 - 1938), residence "Mahera", was baptized on 22 July 1860, sponsors John Haneen and Ellen Haneen (Clooney-Quin baptisms 1855-1880). <Maghera, Newgrove, House 1; House 32> National School Teacher and principal at Clooney National School for Girls.
3.0 John McNamara (1862 - unknown), "John Mac", residence "Mahera", was baptized on 11 April 1862, sponsors William Corbett and Bridget Corbett (Clooney-Quin baptisms 1855-1880).
4.0 Bridget McNamara (1863 - unknown), residence "Maghera", was baptized on 23 June 1863, sponsors Patt Corbett and Bridget Corbett (Clooney-Quin baptisms 1855-1880).
5.0 Peter McNamara (1865 - unknown), "Peter MacNamara", residence "Maghera", was baptized on 7 May 1865, sponsors James Reidy and Mary Reidy (Clooney-Quin baptisms 1855-1880). Per civil birth record, Peter McNamara, of Mahera, was born on 4 May 1865; father's occupation was "farmer" (Tulla registration).
6.0 Margaret McNamara (1867 - 1867 ??), residence "Maghera", was baptized on 1 September 1867, sponsors Edmund Doherty and Margaret Doherty (Clooney-Quin baptisms 1855-1880). Per civil birth record, Margaret McNamara, of Maghera, was born on 10 September 1867; father's occupation was "clerk" (Tulla registration). Unknown civil death record ?
7.0 Margaret McNamara (1868 - 1919), residence "Maghera", was baptized on 20 July 1868, sponsors Edmund Doherty and Margaret Doherty (Clooney-Quin baptisms 1855-1880). Unknown civil birth record ? <Maghera, Newgrove, House 1; House 32>
Margaret McNamara, age 51 years, housekeeper, died at Maghera on 21 March 1919; informant Anna Mary McNamara, sister, present at death Maghera.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 419143.pdf
Edit 1 on 31 Aug. 2023: updated Michael McNamara and Ellen Kerin marriage, son James, and greater detail on son Michael, as discussed above.
Thanks for providing the link to the family website of Patrick McNamara and Mary Nestor of Maghera townland, again, I had most definitely forgotten that you had posted the link two years ago in August 2021. Looking back at your posting, the reporting of Patrick McNamara as a "labourer" in his death record, when he was a "coachman" (as reported in the census reports), was an example of the laziness of the civil reporting authorities. And this was irritating to you as the occupations of "farmer", a profession such as coachman or blacksmith, and "labourer" reflect very distinct social classes in Ireland. I was not aware of this aspect of Irish society until reading this forum. As far as the USA, I would never have thought there was a great distinction between a 19th century farmer in Iowa and an hourly laborer in New York City. But now I wonder if my Irish ancestors, who were comfortable farmers in the USA, were more likely to have been of the farming or laborer class back in Ireland prior to the Famine.
The McNamara website, Nestor's Bridge, was very well done and enjoyable to read. Great photos throughout the various pages. Their genealogy research was back in the olden days when the Irish baptism records were on microfilm and having to order individual Irish civil records — now both available on-line and free.
The source for the 1878 marriage record used for their research was the Catholic marriage record, and not the civil marriage record, which provides the names of the fathers of the bride and groom:
Patrick McNamara, residence Newgrove, servant, son of laborer Michael McNamara, married Mary Nestor, of Allaclouen (located in Maghera townland), daughter of laborer John Nestor (and Bridget Donohoe per 1855 baptism), on 3 March 1878 at Clooney chapel by the Rev. Daniel Corbett; Janet Armstrong and Mary Clune.
Sheila, we've researched nearly all the McNamara families in Tulla Parish. Patrick McNamara, married to Mary Nestor, of Maghera, must be the "Patrick Mac" baptized on 22 April 1855, residence Newgrove, father "Michael Mac", in the Tulla baptism register, 1846-1864.
There are two difficult twists that may have created a stumbling block:
1) the use of "Mac" versus McNamara, as well as difficulty in viewing microfilm versus your transcriptions.
2) I am fairly certain that the Tulla priest made a mistake in the 1855 baptism entry and reported "Mary Donohoe" as the mother and not the baptism sponsor. And the correct mother was "Ellen Keran", who was reported as the baptism sponsor. Michael McNamara and Ellen Kearan / Kerin of Newgrove would go on to have two additional children in 1858 and 1861.
Sheila, while searching for the missing Civil War soldier Thomas McNamara of Glandree we have noted many mistakes by the Tulla priest especially with the names of the bride in the marriage records, and mothers reported in the baptism records. I am fairly certain that the baptism of Patrick McNamara in 1855 is one more mistake. Unfortunately, I cannot locate a marriage record for a Michael McNamara and Ellen Kearan to prove this theory (or a marriage record with Mary Donohue to disprove the theory). Perhaps the marriage was in Feakle Parish with records starting in 1860 (or I simply missed it).
There are a whopping 98 family trees on the ancestry website for Patrick McNamara married to Mary Nestor in 1878. The prevailing view is that Patrick McNamara was born on 5 March 1853 in Tulla. And for those who included his parents, to John McNamara and a Mary Quilty or Mary Conway or Ellen Broderick. Not one single family tree has his father as Michael McNamara, despite his civil marriage record of 1878, freely available on-line, stating so.
UPDATE: Sheila discovered marriage of Michael McNamara and Ellen Kerin in the Quin-Clooney marriage register, as well as new information on their son Michael. See her next posting; new information now reflected below:
Michael McNamara married Ellen Kerin, both from Carahan, on 3 February 1839; witnesses Fergus Kerin, Patt and Margaret McNamara (Quin-Clooney marriages 1833-1855).
Possibly Ellen Kearan? An Ellen McNamara, widow, age 80 years, died on 23 October 1899 at Tulla workhouse (more like a hospital by this time); informant Michael Molony of the workhouse. Did not search for a possible civil death record for Michael McNamara of Newgrove.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 633599.pdf
Michael McNamara and Ellen Kerin / Kearan, of Carahan, and then later Newgrove, were the parents of one child baptized in Quin-Clooney parish, and three children baptized in Tulla Parish:
1.0 James McNamara (1845 - unknown), residence Carrahan; father Michael McNamara; mother Ellen Kerin; was baptized on 28 December 1845, sponsor Eliza McMahon (Quin-Clooney baptisms 1816 - 1855).
Later whereabouts unknown.
2.0 Patrick McNamara (1855 - 1941), "Patrick Mac", residence Newgrove; father Michael Mac; mother Mary Donohoe; was baptized on 22 April 1855, sponsor Ellen Keran (Tulla baptisms 1846 - 1862). Names of mother and baptism sponsor have been incorrectly swapped. See discussion above. <Maghera, Newgrove, House 12; House 33>
See McNamara- Nestor family tree on nestorsbridge website for marriage to Mary Nestor and their children:
http://www.nestorsbridge.com/maghera/timeline-a.html
Interestingly, Patrick McNamara went to America along with three of his children in 1905, and returned to Ireland, as documented on this page of the Nestor's Bridge website:
http://www.nestorsbridge.com/maghera/Ellis-Island.html
3.0 Mary McNamara (1858 - unknown), residence Newgrove; father Michael McNamara; mother Ellen Kearan; was baptized on 16 October 1858, sponsor Ellen O'Brien (Tulla baptisms 1846 - 1862).
Later whereabouts unknown (not researched).
4.0 Michael McNamara (1861 - unknown), residence Newgrove; father Michael McNamara; mother Ellen Kerin; was baptized on 7 October 1861, sponsor Mary Meagher (Tulla baptisms 1846 - 1862).
Michael McNamara, labourer, Piercetown, son of Michael McNamara, farmer, was married to Mary Dargan, Gurrawn, Borris, daughter of Thomas Dargan, labourer, on 13 August 1895, in TwomileBorris chapel, Thurles Union, Co. Tipperary; witnesses: Patrick Carey, Mary Fogarty.
Mary MacNamara, at Grawn (Tipperary), married, aged 37, (in child-birth) died on 11 November 1900; informant: Michael McNamara of Grawn.
............................. 3.1 Patrick McNamara (1898 - unknown), was born on 18 March 1898, residence Grawn, Tipperary, father reported as labourer (District of Littleton in the Union of Thurles). Living with uncle, Patrick McNamara, in Maghera in 1901 census. <Maghera, Newgrove, House 12; unknown>
************************
From reading the various pages on the Nestor's Bridge website, it is clear that Patrick McNamara (1855 - 1941) of Maghera, married to Mary Nestor, would not have been related to their Maghera neighbors, Anne McNamara, the National School Teacher, and her sister Margaret. On their visits to Ireland, they interviewed numerous locals and not one ever mentioned that the McNamara sisters were their relations, which was always only a slight possibility.
Reporting an accurate age for a National School teacher was important due to their pension and retirement based upon their age. Thus, it was not difficult to discover the civil death record for Anne Mary McNamara, born about 1860.
Anna Mary McNamara, age 78 years, teacher, died at Maghera on 1 December 1938; informant Margaret Hehir, present at death Maghera (Scariff registration).
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 273585.pdf
Did Anna Mary's sister Margaret get married to a Hehir? Not the most likely explanation as the Hehir family were next door neighbors (House #31) to the Anne Mary McNamara household (House #32) in the 1911 census. William Hehir and Bridget Reidy had a daughter, Margaret, born in 1913; she would have been 25 years old in 1938 when she was the informant for her neighbor, Anna Mary McNamara:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 588995.pdf
It appears that Bridget Reidy Hehir was not just a neighbor but a relative of Anne Mary McNamara. After finding Margaret McNamara's civil death record in 1919 in Maghera, I came to the conclusion that the two McNamara women had deep roots in Quin-Clooney Parish, if not in Maghera. A more thorough search for McNamara and its variations in the Quin-Clooney baptism register revealed that "Anne Mary Mack" was indeed baptized in July 1860, the same exact month and year as I had calculated for Anne Mary McNamara from her data reported on the "List of Teachers Employed by the Commissioners of National Education on 31 March 1905" (National Archives of Ireland). "Anne Mary Mack" was baptized on 22 July 1860, parents were Peter McNamara and Margaret Reidy of Maghera.
Peter McNamara and Margaret Reidy were the parents of seven children in the Quin-Clooney baptism register between 1859 and 1868. But little other information is known about them. Who were their parents? Where living at 1855 Griffith Valuation? Marriage location or date? Civil death records? What happened to their three sons? While the identities of the Anne Mary McNamara, the National School Teacher of Clooney Girls School, and her sister Margaret, are now known, there are still many open questions.
1.0 James McNamara (1859 - unknown), residence "Mauhera", was baptized on 20 March 1859, sponsors Thomas Halloran and Mary Halloran (Clooney-Quin baptisms 1855-1880).
2.0 Anne Mary McNamara (1860 - 1938), residence "Mahera", was baptized on 22 July 1860, sponsors John Haneen and Ellen Haneen (Clooney-Quin baptisms 1855-1880). <Maghera, Newgrove, House 1; House 32> National School Teacher and principal at Clooney National School for Girls.
3.0 John McNamara (1862 - unknown), "John Mac", residence "Mahera", was baptized on 11 April 1862, sponsors William Corbett and Bridget Corbett (Clooney-Quin baptisms 1855-1880).
4.0 Bridget McNamara (1863 - unknown), residence "Maghera", was baptized on 23 June 1863, sponsors Patt Corbett and Bridget Corbett (Clooney-Quin baptisms 1855-1880).
5.0 Peter McNamara (1865 - unknown), "Peter MacNamara", residence "Maghera", was baptized on 7 May 1865, sponsors James Reidy and Mary Reidy (Clooney-Quin baptisms 1855-1880). Per civil birth record, Peter McNamara, of Mahera, was born on 4 May 1865; father's occupation was "farmer" (Tulla registration).
6.0 Margaret McNamara (1867 - 1867 ??), residence "Maghera", was baptized on 1 September 1867, sponsors Edmund Doherty and Margaret Doherty (Clooney-Quin baptisms 1855-1880). Per civil birth record, Margaret McNamara, of Maghera, was born on 10 September 1867; father's occupation was "clerk" (Tulla registration). Unknown civil death record ?
7.0 Margaret McNamara (1868 - 1919), residence "Maghera", was baptized on 20 July 1868, sponsors Edmund Doherty and Margaret Doherty (Clooney-Quin baptisms 1855-1880). Unknown civil birth record ? <Maghera, Newgrove, House 1; House 32>
Margaret McNamara, age 51 years, housekeeper, died at Maghera on 21 March 1919; informant Anna Mary McNamara, sister, present at death Maghera.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 419143.pdf
Edit 1 on 31 Aug. 2023: updated Michael McNamara and Ellen Kerin marriage, son James, and greater detail on son Michael, as discussed above.
Last edited by Jimbo on Thu Aug 31, 2023 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,
Hi Jimbo
More good work and so quickly! I’ve failed to find any records for Peter McNamara of Maghera, but I’ve found a couple that will help fill out the information on the McNamaras of Newgrove, Tulla parish, the family Patrick “Doctor” McNamara belonged to (I agree with you that it most likely that his parents are Michael McNamara and Ellen Kearan):
Quin-Clooney marriages 1833-1855: 3 Feb 1839: Ellen Kerin to Michael McNamara, both from Carahan; witnesses: Fergus Kerin, Patt and Margaret McNamara.
13 Aug 1895: Marriage of Michael McNamara, Labourer, Piercetown, son of Michael McNamara, Farmer, to Mary Dargan, Gurrawn, Borris, daughter of Thomas Dargan, Labourer, in TwomileBorris chapel, Thurles Union, Co. Tipperary; witnesses: Patrick Carey, Mary Fogarty: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 838344.pdf
18 Mar 1898, Grawn: Birth of Patrick to Michael McNamara, Labourer, and Mary Dargan: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 798249.pdf. Registered in the District of Littleton in the Union of Thurles.
11 Nov 1900, Grawn: Death of Mary MacNamara, married, aged 37, (in child-birth); informant: Michael McNamara, Grawn: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 622091.pdf
It appears that Patrick McNamara, who was aged 3 in 1901, was an only child.
Sheila
P.S. I was wrong to say John McCormack sang Danny Boy. It seems he disliked the lyrics, so sang the air with other lyrics.
More good work and so quickly! I’ve failed to find any records for Peter McNamara of Maghera, but I’ve found a couple that will help fill out the information on the McNamaras of Newgrove, Tulla parish, the family Patrick “Doctor” McNamara belonged to (I agree with you that it most likely that his parents are Michael McNamara and Ellen Kearan):
Quin-Clooney marriages 1833-1855: 3 Feb 1839: Ellen Kerin to Michael McNamara, both from Carahan; witnesses: Fergus Kerin, Patt and Margaret McNamara.
13 Aug 1895: Marriage of Michael McNamara, Labourer, Piercetown, son of Michael McNamara, Farmer, to Mary Dargan, Gurrawn, Borris, daughter of Thomas Dargan, Labourer, in TwomileBorris chapel, Thurles Union, Co. Tipperary; witnesses: Patrick Carey, Mary Fogarty: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 838344.pdf
18 Mar 1898, Grawn: Birth of Patrick to Michael McNamara, Labourer, and Mary Dargan: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 798249.pdf. Registered in the District of Littleton in the Union of Thurles.
11 Nov 1900, Grawn: Death of Mary MacNamara, married, aged 37, (in child-birth); informant: Michael McNamara, Grawn: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 622091.pdf
It appears that Patrick McNamara, who was aged 3 in 1901, was an only child.
Sheila
P.S. I was wrong to say John McCormack sang Danny Boy. It seems he disliked the lyrics, so sang the air with other lyrics.
Last edited by Sduddy on Mon Aug 28, 2023 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,
Hi Sharon
Thank you for helping me with the The Hibernian Society for Establishing Schools, and circulating the Holy Scriptures in Ireland, or The Hibernian Society for short. It was instituted in the year 1806. And thank you for the link to the Eight Annual Report, published 1814. Yes, I can see by the list of counties, where schools had been established, that there were no schools in Co. Clare at that time, but, re-reading Joe Power’s article, I see that there were many Hibernian schools established in the county in the 1820s and 1830s. And yes, it seems that Catholic children attended the schools. According to the 1814 report
Sharon, thank you also for showing the overlapping, if that is the correct word, of the Kildare Place Society and the Hibernian School Society.
Regarding the Kildare Place Schools, here is a piece, by Mary Clancy, on Knockbane National School (Moycullen, Co. Galway), which began life in the 1820s as a Kildare Place School: https://moycullen.galwaycommunityherita ... nal-school. I’m sure there must be some examples of Kildare Place Schools in Co. Clare, also.
Sheila
Thank you for helping me with the The Hibernian Society for Establishing Schools, and circulating the Holy Scriptures in Ireland, or The Hibernian Society for short. It was instituted in the year 1806. And thank you for the link to the Eight Annual Report, published 1814. Yes, I can see by the list of counties, where schools had been established, that there were no schools in Co. Clare at that time, but, re-reading Joe Power’s article, I see that there were many Hibernian schools established in the county in the 1820s and 1830s. And yes, it seems that Catholic children attended the schools. According to the 1814 report
Almost all those who have, at the moment, been so terrified by the anathema’s of their Priests, as to remove their children from the Schools, have, after a few weeks reflection, completely recovered from their panic, and, in defiance of the censures of their Church, again put their children under the tuition of the Society. … (page 8 of the 1814 report).
Your Committee have no reason to regret having adopted the plan of employing Catholic Schoolmasters, under the express stipulation, that no book should be read in the Schools, but the Society’s Spelling-book, containing scriptural lessons, and the English or Irish Testament. These books are constantly and exclusively used. All the Catholic Teachers in their employ, strictly adhere to this rule… (page 9).
It will be pleasing to the Members of this Institution to learn, that the benefit resulting from the Schools is now become so obvious, that it has occasioned, during the past year, a large accession of Clergymen and Gentlemen of respectability and influence, residents in Ireland, who enter cordially into the views of the Society, and who encourage and patronize this plan of education in their respective neighbourhoods. Some have also been induced to establish Schools, on a similar principle, on their own estates, or in their own parishes … (pages 9, 10).
These Schools are principally to be found in the Counties of Sligo, Mayo, Leitrim, Fermanagh, Donegal, Galway, Roscommon, Tipperary, and Carlow… (page 10).
Here is how the Ireland of 1814 is viewed by the Society:Ireland supplies a large proportion of our daily labourers; and hence, according to their measure of instruction, or their absolute want of it, will they bring with them pestiferous or a salutary conduct. Multitudes of the Irish have been fighting our battles by land and by sea, many of whom, through want of instruction, appear to have lived and died destitute of the true knowledge of themselves or the Saviour. (page 11).
Regarding the Lancastrian School in Cook’s Lane, Ennis, I see now, in the article by Joe Power, that the school opened in 1814 but closed in 1817, apparently. I’d thought that this school might be the one referred to by Fr. Clancy as a Hibernian School, but I see now that the Hibernian school was quite separate: Joe Power says,Our own country is a garden, which the Lord’s right hand hath planted – which he daily waters – and wherein he is, and will be glorified; but on the very borders of it, we see a comparatively uncultivated district, overgrown with briers and thorns. A narrow channel only divides us from an island, in which the religious and intellectual condition of the poor is vastly inferior to that of the same class of society in Great Britain….(pages 6, 7).
: https://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/cocla ... ation2.htmA controversial system of education was introduced in 1806 following the foundation of the London Hibernian Society. This was a notorious prosletysing society and many of these schools were set up throughout the county in the 1820’s and 1830’s. One of these schools was established in Cook’s Lane, Ennis
Sharon, thank you also for showing the overlapping, if that is the correct word, of the Kildare Place Society and the Hibernian School Society.
Regarding the Kildare Place Schools, here is a piece, by Mary Clancy, on Knockbane National School (Moycullen, Co. Galway), which began life in the 1820s as a Kildare Place School: https://moycullen.galwaycommunityherita ... nal-school. I’m sure there must be some examples of Kildare Place Schools in Co. Clare, also.
Sheila
Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,
Hi Sheila,
Great job in discovering the marriage of Michael McNamara and Ellen Kerin in 1839 in the Quin-Clooney marriage register. I may have only searched the Tulla marriage register. Or perhaps with Patrick McNamara of Newgrove being born in 1855, I didn't think to check all the way back to 1839 for their marriage.
The 15 years between 1839 and 1855 is a long period of marriage to go without any children, so I reviewed the Quin-Clooney baptism register for any children. Michael McNamara and Ellen Kerin had a son James in 1845. There is still a decade gap between children. Sheila, thanks also for the details on their son, Michael, who lived in Tipperary, and their grandson Patrick who lived with his uncle Patrick in Maghera. With this new evidence (the marriage of Michael McNamara and Ellen Kerin in 1839; and that Ellen Kerin's known grandson, Patrick, was living with his uncle Patrick) I can conclude with 100% certainty that the priest made a mistake in the 1855 baptism entry for Patrick McNamara, and that his mother was indeed Ellen Kerin/Kearan. Will update the McNamara family tree of my prior posting to reflect these changes.
Not certain if the newly discovered James McNamara, born in 1845 in Carahan townland, would have been the first born son of Michael McNamara and Ellen Kerin. Possibly the couple lived elsewhere or baptism entries went unrecorded in the early years of their marriage.
The Quin-Clooney baptism register includes a James McNamara and Joanne/Judy McNamara of Carahan who had upwards of ten children (only two boys) between 1825 and 1844. A James Kerin is a baptism sponsor in 1836. A "Widow McNamara" in the 1825 Tithe Applotments was living in Carrahan. In 1855 Griffith Valuation there were no McNamara's living in Carrahan townland.
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In searching the British Newspaper Archives for Maghera / Mahera, I discovered a reference to Derryhalla, spelt as "Derryhulla", which provided an important clue relating to the Derryhalla McNamara's:
The identity of the "Widow Mack" of Derryhalla is still a mystery. Was she the "Mary Halloran" who had three children with a Patrick McNamara of Derryhalla between 1851 and 1854? Or was she the "Margaret Butler" of Derryhalla who married a Patrick McNamara in 1846, and had a son, Thomas, in 1847? Or was she someone else? A search of the civil death records would be challenging, especially since the Widow Mack could have reached a grand old age well into the 1890's.
******************************
With regards to the family of Peter McNamara and Margaret Reidy of Maghera, who, other than their two daughters (Anne Mary and Margaret), appear to go missing from the Irish records:
Sheila, could you please take a look at the two baptism entries in 1867 and 1868 for their child Margaret McNamara. In your experience transcribing so many of the Clare baptism registers, would it be possible that one child was baptized twice? This would explain why I cannot find a civil death record for Margaret #1, baptized on 1 September 1867; and why there is no civil birth record for Margaret #2, baptized on 20 July 1868. A plausible explanation for Margaret being baptized twice, would be that she was born very sickly, and was baptized in an emergency by a lay person. When the baby was healthy, the child was brought to a church and baptized more formally by the priest. This would explain why the civil records are missing birth and death records for Margaret. Your two cents please!
For the McNamara surname, Peter is not very common.
In 1860, "Peter Mack" was one of many individuals from the "Parishes of Quin and Clouney" who donated money to "The Papal Tribute" for a total of £127 and 15 shillings; Peter Mack contributed 7s. 6d per Clare Journal, and Ennis Advertiser of 5 July 1860.
Peter McNamara, of Maughera, paid for a dog license on 8 April 1869, #245 of 248, for a male grey terrier (Crusheen dog register). The deadline for payment of a dog license was the 31st of March. Peter McNamara, of Maughera, shows up in the Crusheen petty session register, of 8 April 1869, with the charge of "that the defendant has reported one dog in his possession at Maughera on the 1st April 1869, said dog not have been licensed by said defendant" (Crusheen petty session register). This was the last known sighting of Peter McNamara / Mack in the Irish records.
In the USA, I saw several instances where "Peter Paul" or "Paul Peter" would switch between names depending upon the census years. Perhaps the same for Peter McNamara? Also, his Irish civil death record could have also been transcribed incorrectly ("Ptr" as "Ptk" for "Patrick")?
Did the Peter McNamara family move to Limerick? Anne Mary McNamara attended "St Marys + St Munchin's Convent" school in Limerick according to the 1905 listing of National School teachers. However, since both Anne Mary and her sister Margaret were living in Maghera in the 1901 census, you would have thought the McNamara's had remained there?
On the "List of Teachers Employed by the Commissioners of National Education on 31 March 1905", Anna Mary McNamara was reported to have gone to teacher training college at "Our Lady of Mercy".
"From the Archives" of the Sisters of Mercy website, the article "Sisters of Mercy and the Evolution of Teacher Training in 19th Century Ireland" (published 3 Sept. 2021, by Marianne Cosgrave, congregational archivist) gives the history of what would later be known as "Our Lady of Mercy College" on Baggot Street in Dublin. Few excerpts:
***************************
I also checked the "List of Teachers Employed by the Commissioners of National Education on 31 March 1905", for Michael Molony, the National School Teacher from Glandree. Michael Molony was married to Mary McNamara, the daughter of Matthew McNamara and Johanna O'Dea, and the granddaughter, I reckon, of Andrew McNamara (≈1790 - 1869) and Bridget McNamara (≈1793 - 1883) of Uggoon (see family tree on page 13).
It would have been interesting to learn the educational background of Michael Molony, but unfortunately he must have been retired prior to March 1905. In the 1901 census, Michael was reported as a "N Teacher" (age 55), and in 1911 was a "Retired Teacher and Farmer" (age 65):
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages ... e/1087482/
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages ... ee/370591/
A good chance that Michael Molony had retired prior to publishing his poem, "The Hills of Sweet Glandree", in early 1903, as I reckon some of the verses would be considered too political for a National School Teacher (complete poem on page six):
Great job in discovering the marriage of Michael McNamara and Ellen Kerin in 1839 in the Quin-Clooney marriage register. I may have only searched the Tulla marriage register. Or perhaps with Patrick McNamara of Newgrove being born in 1855, I didn't think to check all the way back to 1839 for their marriage.
The 15 years between 1839 and 1855 is a long period of marriage to go without any children, so I reviewed the Quin-Clooney baptism register for any children. Michael McNamara and Ellen Kerin had a son James in 1845. There is still a decade gap between children. Sheila, thanks also for the details on their son, Michael, who lived in Tipperary, and their grandson Patrick who lived with his uncle Patrick in Maghera. With this new evidence (the marriage of Michael McNamara and Ellen Kerin in 1839; and that Ellen Kerin's known grandson, Patrick, was living with his uncle Patrick) I can conclude with 100% certainty that the priest made a mistake in the 1855 baptism entry for Patrick McNamara, and that his mother was indeed Ellen Kerin/Kearan. Will update the McNamara family tree of my prior posting to reflect these changes.
Not certain if the newly discovered James McNamara, born in 1845 in Carahan townland, would have been the first born son of Michael McNamara and Ellen Kerin. Possibly the couple lived elsewhere or baptism entries went unrecorded in the early years of their marriage.
The Quin-Clooney baptism register includes a James McNamara and Joanne/Judy McNamara of Carahan who had upwards of ten children (only two boys) between 1825 and 1844. A James Kerin is a baptism sponsor in 1836. A "Widow McNamara" in the 1825 Tithe Applotments was living in Carrahan. In 1855 Griffith Valuation there were no McNamara's living in Carrahan townland.
*******************************
In searching the British Newspaper Archives for Maghera / Mahera, I discovered a reference to Derryhalla, spelt as "Derryhulla", which provided an important clue relating to the Derryhalla McNamara's:
Patrick McNamara, of 1855 Griffith Valuation, and the father of Patrick McNamara (≈1844 - 1898), must have died sometime between 1855 and 1868. His death record could possibly turn up when additional on-line death records become available between 1864 and 1868. Although for "Widow Mack's" to be well known as a place name in 1868, I reckon Pat McNamara died much closer to 1855 than 1868.TO CONTRACTORS.
SEALED TENDERS for executing the under mentioned Works, will be received by the Grand Jury Secretary up to 4 o'Clock, p.m., . . .
2—To complete Hill Cuttings and repair 540 perches of road from Ennis to Gort, between Mahera cross and the Widow Mack's at Derryhulla [Derryhalla], on Mahera, in the Barony of Upper Bunratty; not to exceed 4s a perch.
Clare Journal, and Ennis Advertiser, Thursday, 6 February 1868
The identity of the "Widow Mack" of Derryhalla is still a mystery. Was she the "Mary Halloran" who had three children with a Patrick McNamara of Derryhalla between 1851 and 1854? Or was she the "Margaret Butler" of Derryhalla who married a Patrick McNamara in 1846, and had a son, Thomas, in 1847? Or was she someone else? A search of the civil death records would be challenging, especially since the Widow Mack could have reached a grand old age well into the 1890's.
******************************
With regards to the family of Peter McNamara and Margaret Reidy of Maghera, who, other than their two daughters (Anne Mary and Margaret), appear to go missing from the Irish records:
Sheila, could you please take a look at the two baptism entries in 1867 and 1868 for their child Margaret McNamara. In your experience transcribing so many of the Clare baptism registers, would it be possible that one child was baptized twice? This would explain why I cannot find a civil death record for Margaret #1, baptized on 1 September 1867; and why there is no civil birth record for Margaret #2, baptized on 20 July 1868. A plausible explanation for Margaret being baptized twice, would be that she was born very sickly, and was baptized in an emergency by a lay person. When the baby was healthy, the child was brought to a church and baptized more formally by the priest. This would explain why the civil records are missing birth and death records for Margaret. Your two cents please!
For the McNamara surname, Peter is not very common.
In 1860, "Peter Mack" was one of many individuals from the "Parishes of Quin and Clouney" who donated money to "The Papal Tribute" for a total of £127 and 15 shillings; Peter Mack contributed 7s. 6d per Clare Journal, and Ennis Advertiser of 5 July 1860.
Peter McNamara, of Maughera, paid for a dog license on 8 April 1869, #245 of 248, for a male grey terrier (Crusheen dog register). The deadline for payment of a dog license was the 31st of March. Peter McNamara, of Maughera, shows up in the Crusheen petty session register, of 8 April 1869, with the charge of "that the defendant has reported one dog in his possession at Maughera on the 1st April 1869, said dog not have been licensed by said defendant" (Crusheen petty session register). This was the last known sighting of Peter McNamara / Mack in the Irish records.
In the USA, I saw several instances where "Peter Paul" or "Paul Peter" would switch between names depending upon the census years. Perhaps the same for Peter McNamara? Also, his Irish civil death record could have also been transcribed incorrectly ("Ptr" as "Ptk" for "Patrick")?
Did the Peter McNamara family move to Limerick? Anne Mary McNamara attended "St Marys + St Munchin's Convent" school in Limerick according to the 1905 listing of National School teachers. However, since both Anne Mary and her sister Margaret were living in Maghera in the 1901 census, you would have thought the McNamara's had remained there?
On the "List of Teachers Employed by the Commissioners of National Education on 31 March 1905", Anna Mary McNamara was reported to have gone to teacher training college at "Our Lady of Mercy".
"From the Archives" of the Sisters of Mercy website, the article "Sisters of Mercy and the Evolution of Teacher Training in 19th Century Ireland" (published 3 Sept. 2021, by Marianne Cosgrave, congregational archivist) gives the history of what would later be known as "Our Lady of Mercy College" on Baggot Street in Dublin. Few excerpts:
For Anne Mary McNamara to attend Our Lady of Mercy College would that be evidence that the Peter McNamara family of Maghera was fairly well off? Or does her attending St Mary's Convent school in Limerick reflect that she might have been an orphan? In the Crusheen dog register of 1911, "A M McNamara" purchased licenses for three dogs (two terriers and one collie).By 1836 it seems that a form of teacher training was in place in Baggot Street.. . .
By 1877, the number of applicants for places on the Baggot Street [in Dublin] training course was so great that the convent built a new training school. It was called Sedes Sapientiae, in honour of its patron, Our Lady Seat of Wisdom. In 1883 the school was formally recognised as a training centre for female students, under the title of Our Lady of Mercy College. The college moved to the Carysfort campus in 1903 where it remained until its closure in 1988.
https://sistersofmercy.ie/2021/09/from-the-archives/
***************************
I also checked the "List of Teachers Employed by the Commissioners of National Education on 31 March 1905", for Michael Molony, the National School Teacher from Glandree. Michael Molony was married to Mary McNamara, the daughter of Matthew McNamara and Johanna O'Dea, and the granddaughter, I reckon, of Andrew McNamara (≈1790 - 1869) and Bridget McNamara (≈1793 - 1883) of Uggoon (see family tree on page 13).
It would have been interesting to learn the educational background of Michael Molony, but unfortunately he must have been retired prior to March 1905. In the 1901 census, Michael was reported as a "N Teacher" (age 55), and in 1911 was a "Retired Teacher and Farmer" (age 65):
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages ... e/1087482/
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages ... ee/370591/
A good chance that Michael Molony had retired prior to publishing his poem, "The Hills of Sweet Glandree", in early 1903, as I reckon some of the verses would be considered too political for a National School Teacher (complete poem on page six):
The coercion laws, they were the cause
Of Ireland's bitter grief,
And the tyrant's cruel that did her rule,
Would grant her no relief.
When Parnell cries "Keep heart my boys,"
The Sunburst yet you'll see,
And its folds of green, will float supreme,
O'er the Hills of Sweet Glandree.
Published (first known) in the Irish Standard, 21 March 1903, Minneapolis, MN
Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,
Hi Jimbo
Just a quick response to the question about Margaret's birth (was it in 1867 or in 1868?) - I will reply more fully to the rest of your post another time.
I agree that it is strange that her birth was not registered - since Peter's birth in 1865 was registered: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 315252.pdf
I think you may be right in saying that one baptism was a lay baptism in the home and the other was the following year in the church. The time between the two baptisms is not really long enough to allow for one child to have died and another to be born.
Anne Mary baptised 22 July 1860: https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls ... 3/mode/1up
Peter baptised 7 May 1865: https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls ... 0/mode/1up
Margaret baptised 1 September 1867: https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls ... 6/mode/1up
Margaret baptised 20 July 1868: https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls ... 9/mode/1up
Also, something quite apart that I forgot to mention to you: I notice that you are finding that the quota for attachments is full, but I have found that if I delete an attachment (that seems not very important anymore) I can make a new one. For instance, in order to attach Joseph Hawes' witness statement recently, I had to delete one of the attachments I made when doing my project on names in Irish in the 1911 census. I decided that it wasn't an important attachment, as it was superseded by a new improved one. I usually make a note re why I'm deleting an attachment. Something I haven't done (yet) is delete an attachment temporarily, intending to replace it at a later time, but that should be possible too.
Sheila
Just a quick response to the question about Margaret's birth (was it in 1867 or in 1868?) - I will reply more fully to the rest of your post another time.
I agree that it is strange that her birth was not registered - since Peter's birth in 1865 was registered: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 315252.pdf
I think you may be right in saying that one baptism was a lay baptism in the home and the other was the following year in the church. The time between the two baptisms is not really long enough to allow for one child to have died and another to be born.
Anne Mary baptised 22 July 1860: https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls ... 3/mode/1up
Peter baptised 7 May 1865: https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls ... 0/mode/1up
Margaret baptised 1 September 1867: https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls ... 6/mode/1up
Margaret baptised 20 July 1868: https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls ... 9/mode/1up
Also, something quite apart that I forgot to mention to you: I notice that you are finding that the quota for attachments is full, but I have found that if I delete an attachment (that seems not very important anymore) I can make a new one. For instance, in order to attach Joseph Hawes' witness statement recently, I had to delete one of the attachments I made when doing my project on names in Irish in the 1911 census. I decided that it wasn't an important attachment, as it was superseded by a new improved one. I usually make a note re why I'm deleting an attachment. Something I haven't done (yet) is delete an attachment temporarily, intending to replace it at a later time, but that should be possible too.
Sheila
Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,
Hi Jimbo, again
Regarding Peter McNamara, Margaret Reidy and family, I have only this crumb: the index of Biographical Notices published in Clare Champion 1935-1985 includes an obit for Miss A. M. McNamara, Maghera, Tulla, published 10 Dec 1938. I will check this out when next in Ennis, unless somebody does it for me in the meantime. I am not very hopeful about information – I have found that obits are often very brief and give minimum information: https://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/cocla ... pionm7.htm
I agree that the McNamaras did not use the name “Peter” very often.
And yes, I think sending Anne Mary to Training College would have been expensive. Maybe she was sponsored by some well-off relative. Those McNamaras are a mystery.
Sheila
Regarding Peter McNamara, Margaret Reidy and family, I have only this crumb: the index of Biographical Notices published in Clare Champion 1935-1985 includes an obit for Miss A. M. McNamara, Maghera, Tulla, published 10 Dec 1938. I will check this out when next in Ennis, unless somebody does it for me in the meantime. I am not very hopeful about information – I have found that obits are often very brief and give minimum information: https://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/cocla ... pionm7.htm
I agree that the McNamaras did not use the name “Peter” very often.
And yes, I think sending Anne Mary to Training College would have been expensive. Maybe she was sponsored by some well-off relative. Those McNamaras are a mystery.
Sheila
Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,
Hi Jimbo
Yesterday I did an extravagant thing (extravagant for me): I subscribed to the Irish Newspaper Archive. I was thinking that it might be some time before I went to Ennis again, and that, by then, this thread would have moved on and that any information re Anne Mary McNamara’s family would be a bit stale. The archive does not have the Clare Champion that I wanted (Dec 1838) – the Clare Champion starts at 1950, which is very late. But the Irish Press (daily newspaper) published deaths from all over the country and I expected to find a notice of Anne Mary’s death there. Those notices in the Irish Press were very brief indeed, but often had as much information as the notices in the Clare Champion (I will remember to look for her in the Clare Champion another time). The notice in the Irish Press of the 2nd Dec 1938 says: "McNamara (Co. Clare) – December 1, 1938, at her residence, Maghera, Tulla, Anna Mary, ex-N.T.; deeply regretted by her sisters, cousins and friends. Remains will be removed to Clooney Church this (Friday) evening at 4 o’clock. Interment at 1 o’clock to-morrow (Saturday)". Sometimes those notices say “American [or Australian] papers please copy”, but not this notice. All it tells us, really, is that her brothers had died, but that is not very surprising since she was 78 when she died. It seems that at least two of her sisters were alive, but we have no idea where they were living, nor their married names. Her sister Margaret had died in 1919, so one of these surviving sisters must be Bridget (baptised 23 June 1863) and another whose baptism was not recorded. The brothers (all of whom had died by 1938, seemingly) were James b. 1859, John b. 1862 and Peter b. 1865.
P.S. I saw that an obit for a Jeremiah McNamara, Elmira, New York, was published in the Clare Champion on 29 Jul 1950: https://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/cocla ... pionm7.htm and was able to find it using the archive, but it wasn’t for any McNamara we know: Death of Clareman in U.S.A. The death of Mr. Jeremiah McNamara, of Elmira, New York, which took place on June 20th, has caused deep regret. He went to Elmira in 1890 and he has since carried on an extensive and successful business. He was a brother of the late Mr. Francis McNamara, Lisbarreen, Bodyke, and of Rev P. J. McNamara, Iowa, U.S.A. With his widow, nephews and nieces deepest sympathy is felt.
Sheila
Yesterday I did an extravagant thing (extravagant for me): I subscribed to the Irish Newspaper Archive. I was thinking that it might be some time before I went to Ennis again, and that, by then, this thread would have moved on and that any information re Anne Mary McNamara’s family would be a bit stale. The archive does not have the Clare Champion that I wanted (Dec 1838) – the Clare Champion starts at 1950, which is very late. But the Irish Press (daily newspaper) published deaths from all over the country and I expected to find a notice of Anne Mary’s death there. Those notices in the Irish Press were very brief indeed, but often had as much information as the notices in the Clare Champion (I will remember to look for her in the Clare Champion another time). The notice in the Irish Press of the 2nd Dec 1938 says: "McNamara (Co. Clare) – December 1, 1938, at her residence, Maghera, Tulla, Anna Mary, ex-N.T.; deeply regretted by her sisters, cousins and friends. Remains will be removed to Clooney Church this (Friday) evening at 4 o’clock. Interment at 1 o’clock to-morrow (Saturday)". Sometimes those notices say “American [or Australian] papers please copy”, but not this notice. All it tells us, really, is that her brothers had died, but that is not very surprising since she was 78 when she died. It seems that at least two of her sisters were alive, but we have no idea where they were living, nor their married names. Her sister Margaret had died in 1919, so one of these surviving sisters must be Bridget (baptised 23 June 1863) and another whose baptism was not recorded. The brothers (all of whom had died by 1938, seemingly) were James b. 1859, John b. 1862 and Peter b. 1865.
P.S. I saw that an obit for a Jeremiah McNamara, Elmira, New York, was published in the Clare Champion on 29 Jul 1950: https://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/cocla ... pionm7.htm and was able to find it using the archive, but it wasn’t for any McNamara we know: Death of Clareman in U.S.A. The death of Mr. Jeremiah McNamara, of Elmira, New York, which took place on June 20th, has caused deep regret. He went to Elmira in 1890 and he has since carried on an extensive and successful business. He was a brother of the late Mr. Francis McNamara, Lisbarreen, Bodyke, and of Rev P. J. McNamara, Iowa, U.S.A. With his widow, nephews and nieces deepest sympathy is felt.
Sheila
Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,
Hi Sheila,
Thank you very much for your efforts to obtain the 1938 obituary for Anne Mary McNamara of Maghera. It was indeed interesting that the obituary referred to plural "sisters", and that obviously her brothers had previously deceased.
I made an important discovery:
Peter McNamara, no residence reported, and Margaret Reidy, of Newgrove, were married in Tulla Parish on 16 June 1858 by the Rev. James Bowles; witnesses Pat Riedy, Michael Lynch and Johanna Rochford (Tulla baptism register of 1846-1861):
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls ... 5/mode/1up
Thus, James McNamara baptized on 20 March 1859 was their first born son and child. No possibility of having a previously undiscovered elder daughter who was one of the surviving sisters referred to in the obituary of Anne Mary McNamara in 1938 (unless Margaret Reidy was a widow in 1858, with a daughter from a prior marriage, but no evidence of that scenario).
There are only civil birth records for two of their children, Peter in 1865, and Margaret in 1868. The occupation of father Peter McNamara changed from "farmer" in 1865 to "clerk" in 1868. If the occupation reported in the 1868 civil birth record is accurate, a "clerk" position might have provided greater opportunities for Peter McNamara and explain a move from Maghera?
In 1855 Griffith Valuation, in Tulla Parish, in the townland of Ballyslattery (or Newgrove), a "Bartholomew Reidy (Smith)", as in blacksmith, leased Plots 7, 8, 9; house, offices & land; over 14 acres; total valuation £27. He must be the same "Bartholomew Reidy" in Clooney Parish at Griffith Valuation, who in Knockaphreaghaun townland, leased Land only, of 4 acres, valuation £3.
In 1827 Tithe Applotments for Tulla parish, James Reidy is leasing in Newgrove townland. Bartholomew of 1855 Griffith Valuation named his first born son James Reidy.
Bartholomew Reidy in Newgrove lived next door to a Thomas MacNamara in Plot 10AB; about 7 acres; valuation about £3.
Bartholmew Reidy of Newgrove might possibly be a sibling of Margaret Reidy of Newgrove who married Pater McNamara, but could not have been her father. They both were married in Tulla Parish to McNamara's within four years of each other.
Batt Reidy, of Newgrove, married Mary McNamara, of Fomerla, on 14 February 1854 in Tulla parish; witnesses Michael Lynch and Margaret Molony (Tulla marriages, 1846-1861).
Bartholomew Reidy ( - before 1901) and Mary McNamara (≈1832 - 1908) of Newgrove were the parents of ten children. Ready, Reidy, and Riedy are common surname variations in the records:
James Reidy (born 1855; married, farmer and smith, living with mother in 1901 census), Mary Riedy (1856), Thomas Riedy (1858), Bridget Ready (1860), John Reidy (1862), Bartholomew Riedy (1864-1865), Johanna Ready (1866), Martin Riedy (1868), Ellen Ready (1871), Anne Reidy (1878).
1901 Census: http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages ... e/1086910/
Unknown death record for Bartholomew Reidy; he died prior to the 1901 census. In the Tulla dog register of 1886, Batt Reidy of Newgrove paid for a license for a white male cur dog.
A Margaret Reidy was a baptism sponsor for Bartholomew's first born child, James Reidy baptized in 1855. Most surely, the Margaret Reidy of Newgrove who married Peter McNamara in 1858.
A Bridget McNamara, of Fomerla, was the baptism sponsor for John Riedy, baptized in 1862.
Sheila, we've come across the McNamara's of Fomerla, who were "Sheedy McNamara's", previously on page 9:
http://www.ourlibrary.ca/phpbb2/viewtop ... &start=120
Could the mysterious Peter McNamara of Maghera (Clooney) also have been from Fomerla (Tulla)?
Thank you very much for your efforts to obtain the 1938 obituary for Anne Mary McNamara of Maghera. It was indeed interesting that the obituary referred to plural "sisters", and that obviously her brothers had previously deceased.
I made an important discovery:
Peter McNamara, no residence reported, and Margaret Reidy, of Newgrove, were married in Tulla Parish on 16 June 1858 by the Rev. James Bowles; witnesses Pat Riedy, Michael Lynch and Johanna Rochford (Tulla baptism register of 1846-1861):
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls ... 5/mode/1up
Thus, James McNamara baptized on 20 March 1859 was their first born son and child. No possibility of having a previously undiscovered elder daughter who was one of the surviving sisters referred to in the obituary of Anne Mary McNamara in 1938 (unless Margaret Reidy was a widow in 1858, with a daughter from a prior marriage, but no evidence of that scenario).
There are only civil birth records for two of their children, Peter in 1865, and Margaret in 1868. The occupation of father Peter McNamara changed from "farmer" in 1865 to "clerk" in 1868. If the occupation reported in the 1868 civil birth record is accurate, a "clerk" position might have provided greater opportunities for Peter McNamara and explain a move from Maghera?
In 1855 Griffith Valuation, in Tulla Parish, in the townland of Ballyslattery (or Newgrove), a "Bartholomew Reidy (Smith)", as in blacksmith, leased Plots 7, 8, 9; house, offices & land; over 14 acres; total valuation £27. He must be the same "Bartholomew Reidy" in Clooney Parish at Griffith Valuation, who in Knockaphreaghaun townland, leased Land only, of 4 acres, valuation £3.
In 1827 Tithe Applotments for Tulla parish, James Reidy is leasing in Newgrove townland. Bartholomew of 1855 Griffith Valuation named his first born son James Reidy.
Bartholomew Reidy in Newgrove lived next door to a Thomas MacNamara in Plot 10AB; about 7 acres; valuation about £3.
Bartholmew Reidy of Newgrove might possibly be a sibling of Margaret Reidy of Newgrove who married Pater McNamara, but could not have been her father. They both were married in Tulla Parish to McNamara's within four years of each other.
Batt Reidy, of Newgrove, married Mary McNamara, of Fomerla, on 14 February 1854 in Tulla parish; witnesses Michael Lynch and Margaret Molony (Tulla marriages, 1846-1861).
Bartholomew Reidy ( - before 1901) and Mary McNamara (≈1832 - 1908) of Newgrove were the parents of ten children. Ready, Reidy, and Riedy are common surname variations in the records:
James Reidy (born 1855; married, farmer and smith, living with mother in 1901 census), Mary Riedy (1856), Thomas Riedy (1858), Bridget Ready (1860), John Reidy (1862), Bartholomew Riedy (1864-1865), Johanna Ready (1866), Martin Riedy (1868), Ellen Ready (1871), Anne Reidy (1878).
1901 Census: http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages ... e/1086910/
Unknown death record for Bartholomew Reidy; he died prior to the 1901 census. In the Tulla dog register of 1886, Batt Reidy of Newgrove paid for a license for a white male cur dog.
A Margaret Reidy was a baptism sponsor for Bartholomew's first born child, James Reidy baptized in 1855. Most surely, the Margaret Reidy of Newgrove who married Peter McNamara in 1858.
A Bridget McNamara, of Fomerla, was the baptism sponsor for John Riedy, baptized in 1862.
Sheila, we've come across the McNamara's of Fomerla, who were "Sheedy McNamara's", previously on page 9:
http://www.ourlibrary.ca/phpbb2/viewtop ... &start=120
Bridget McNamara, the baptism sponsor of John Reidy in 1862, was likely Michael Sheedy McNamara's daughter, born in 1836. Elizabeth McNamara married a John Whelan and went to Australia, as their son's obituary not only documented his parents but also grandparents back in Newgrove (as discussed on page 9).From the Tulla baptism register: Michael McNamara and Mary Molony of Fomerla (very near Tyredagh) had the following children [Updated for Margaret MacNamara in 1840]:
1) Eliza, 11 March 1834, sponsors Patt Molony and Bridget Halloran
2) Bridget, 1 April 1836, sponsor Margaret Molony
3) Margaret MacNamara, baptized June 1840, no residence reported
4) Michael, August 1842, sponsors Patt Molony and Bety Mac
5) James, August 1843, sponsor M. M?
Not sure how Mary McNamara, who married Bartholomew Reidy, fits into the McNamara of Fomerla family tree. Mary McNamara Reidy's age in the 1901 census, as well as her 1908 death record, both reflect a birth year about 1831 or 1832. Possibly the first born daughter of Michael Sheedy McNamara and Mary Moloney? I double checked the Tulla baptism register of 1819-1846 but could not find Mary's baptism under the various spellings of McNamara. The Tulla baptism register is missing periods in the 1820's, when Mary McNamara might have been born, which might explain not finding her baptism.WHELAN: - On the 13th August, at his father's residence, Bank Street, Richmond, James, the eldest and beloved son of John and Eliza Whelan, and grandson of the late Mr. James Whelan of New Grove, and the late Mr. Michael Sheedy M'Namara of Fomerla, County Clare, Ireland, in the twenty-fourth year of his age. R.I.P. (Illustrated Australian News, Melbourne, Victoria, 30 August 1878: trove archive)
Could the mysterious Peter McNamara of Maghera (Clooney) also have been from Fomerla (Tulla)?
Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,
Hi Jimbo,
I think there’s a good chance that Mary McNamara, who married Bartholomew Reidy, belonged to the Fomerla McNamaras. There is a gap beween the birth of Bridget in Apr. 1836 and the birth of Margaret in June 1840, so I looked through the baptisms for 1838 (just in case I missed her when transcribing), but did not find Mary. You mentioned that her age in 1901 indicated a birth year about 1831 or 1832, so I looked from 1830 to end of 1832, but did not find her. But of course that does not mean that Michael McNamara and Mary Molony did not have a child called Mary.
I failed to find the record of Bartholomew Reidy’s death, but I saw that he was deceased when his son James married Bridget Keogh in 1891, so he must have died between 1886 and 1891.
11 Jul 1891: Marriage of James Reidy, Farmer, Newgrove, Tulla, son of Bartholomew Reidy, Deceased, Farmer, to Bridget Keogh, Knockanoura, Carahan, daughter of Pat Keogh, alive, Farmer, in Clooney chapel; witnesses: James Corbett, Mary J. Keogh: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 891751.pdf
You show that a Thomas McNamara was leasing land adjacent to Bartholomew Reidy in Newgrove townland at the time of Griffith’s Valuation (1856) and I wondered if the Peter McNamara who married Margaret Reidy in 1858 was Thomas’s son. However, the Tulla baptisms don’t show baptisms of children of a Thomas McNamara, Newgrove. There is an Edmund McNamara who was married to Margaret Hanafin. I’ve transcribed the baptisms of their children as: Thomas on 10 Nov 1838; Stephen on ?? Dec 1841; Bat(?)* on 25. ??. 184?. But I really don’t think any of those McNamaras would have married in 1858 – they would have been too young. Peter McNamara is remaining a mystery. It is interesting that his occupation was recorded as Clerk.
*I’ve looked again at the original records for Thomas and Stephen and they are quite clear, but the record for “Bat” is not clear as to the name of the child, and I am doubting that it is Bat. It is on the lefthand side of page 99 of the 1819-1848 register, just above the child called Jas. Sheedy: https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls ... 9/mode/1up.
Sheila
P.S. I see now, in the Clooney-Quin marriages 1833-1855, that Edmund McNamara (no address) married Margaret Hanifeen, Hazlewood, on 6 Oct 1834, and had a daughter, Ellen, baptised in May 1835. It's very possible that they had another child before the birth of Thomas in 1838, but he/she would still be rather young to marry in 1858. But, Jimbo, I don't mean these McNamaras to be a distraction from Peter's family - just ruling out Edmund and Margaret as Peter's parents.
I looked at Quin-Cloony baptisms 1819-1848 by residence focusing on Mahera. I found a baptism of a “Peg” of James McNamara and Mary Hehir on 28 of Jun 1835. Looking at the original, I still think it is Peg. I don’t think it can be Peter: https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls ... 7/mode/1up
I think there’s a good chance that Mary McNamara, who married Bartholomew Reidy, belonged to the Fomerla McNamaras. There is a gap beween the birth of Bridget in Apr. 1836 and the birth of Margaret in June 1840, so I looked through the baptisms for 1838 (just in case I missed her when transcribing), but did not find Mary. You mentioned that her age in 1901 indicated a birth year about 1831 or 1832, so I looked from 1830 to end of 1832, but did not find her. But of course that does not mean that Michael McNamara and Mary Molony did not have a child called Mary.
I failed to find the record of Bartholomew Reidy’s death, but I saw that he was deceased when his son James married Bridget Keogh in 1891, so he must have died between 1886 and 1891.
11 Jul 1891: Marriage of James Reidy, Farmer, Newgrove, Tulla, son of Bartholomew Reidy, Deceased, Farmer, to Bridget Keogh, Knockanoura, Carahan, daughter of Pat Keogh, alive, Farmer, in Clooney chapel; witnesses: James Corbett, Mary J. Keogh: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 891751.pdf
You show that a Thomas McNamara was leasing land adjacent to Bartholomew Reidy in Newgrove townland at the time of Griffith’s Valuation (1856) and I wondered if the Peter McNamara who married Margaret Reidy in 1858 was Thomas’s son. However, the Tulla baptisms don’t show baptisms of children of a Thomas McNamara, Newgrove. There is an Edmund McNamara who was married to Margaret Hanafin. I’ve transcribed the baptisms of their children as: Thomas on 10 Nov 1838; Stephen on ?? Dec 1841; Bat(?)* on 25. ??. 184?. But I really don’t think any of those McNamaras would have married in 1858 – they would have been too young. Peter McNamara is remaining a mystery. It is interesting that his occupation was recorded as Clerk.
*I’ve looked again at the original records for Thomas and Stephen and they are quite clear, but the record for “Bat” is not clear as to the name of the child, and I am doubting that it is Bat. It is on the lefthand side of page 99 of the 1819-1848 register, just above the child called Jas. Sheedy: https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls ... 9/mode/1up.
Sheila
P.S. I see now, in the Clooney-Quin marriages 1833-1855, that Edmund McNamara (no address) married Margaret Hanifeen, Hazlewood, on 6 Oct 1834, and had a daughter, Ellen, baptised in May 1835. It's very possible that they had another child before the birth of Thomas in 1838, but he/she would still be rather young to marry in 1858. But, Jimbo, I don't mean these McNamaras to be a distraction from Peter's family - just ruling out Edmund and Margaret as Peter's parents.
I looked at Quin-Cloony baptisms 1819-1848 by residence focusing on Mahera. I found a baptism of a “Peg” of James McNamara and Mary Hehir on 28 of Jun 1835. Looking at the original, I still think it is Peg. I don’t think it can be Peter: https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls ... 7/mode/1up