Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

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Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:21 am

Hi Sheila,

Good find with Patrick McNamara, I had searched unsuccessfully. Typically, the death records appear to be fairly accurate on the reporting of ages. But that might be because we only find the ones that are accurately reported. Perhaps when the informant is the youngest member of a large family, the information is less accurate? We saw this with the death record for Margaret Bowles McNamara who died in 1937 and according to her youngest son Ambrose, she was 74 years old. So Margaret was born about 1863? Margaret Bowles married James McNamara in 1870 and had her first child in 1871. Clearly the 1901 & 1911 census reports with her age reflecting a birth about 1850 are more accurate.

As far as finding the baptism record and determining the accurate age for Patrick McNamara, it is good to reflect on what we know for certain. In 1855 Griffith Valuation there was a man named Matthew McNamara in Uggoon who lived adjacent to McNamara lands in Kilmore. His property was passed to a man named Patrick McNamara who with Bridget Connors had a first born son named Matthew McNamara.

As you stated Patrick McNamara's death record is clearly incorrect, he did not die in 1941 at the age of 84 years. Using the age range from the 1901 census (age 53) and 1911 census (72 years) reports, Patrick could be born anytime between 1839 and 1848. Within this period are two missing pages of the Tulla baptism register covering May through July 1841, and January through March 1843.

It is possible that Matthew McNamara had a son Patrick in 1843. That would mean that Patrick McNamara died in 1941 at the age of 98 years. Very old, but not unbelievable. People from Tulla appear to live very long:
Mrs. Ellen MacIverne has died near Tulla, County Clare, at the age of 112 years.

Southern Cross, Adelaide, South Australia, 20 July 1906
"THE NEW ZEALAND TOUR." Southern Cross (Adelaide, SA : 1889 - 1954) 20 July 1906: 4. Web. <http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article166967884>.
Also the Irish civil death records include the widow Ellen Vaughn of Callura, Tulla who died on 20 October 1906 at the age of 106 years:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 555171.pdf

As far as John McNamara being the informant on the 1941 death record of Patrick McNamara, and being reported dead himself in American obituaries, I think we should revisit what was reported. When oldest brother Matthew died in 1935, his Washington DC obituary stated that he had two brothers living in Ireland but no names were reported. With just this information, you would assume the obituary was referring to the two brothers on the 1911 census: John and James. However, in 1953 when sister Anne Murphy died in Washington DC, the two living brothers were named specifically as Patrick and James on her obituary. It would be very easy for American relatives to confuse their uncles back in Ireland. I'm not sure who else the Patrick McNamara of Uggoon who died in 1941 could be, nor the informant John McNamara, and thus the American obituary from 1953 is most likely incorrect. Evidence to prove otherwise would be a death record for John McNamara between 1911 and 1935. It's interesting to note, that Patrick McNamara (born 1877) has not been found on the 1901 and 1911 Irish census. Most of the McNamara children arrived in America in the late 1890's and early 1900's. With their father living until 1941, you'd think a few of his children living in DC would have returned to Ireland at some point and a passenger listing might provide more information on Clare relatives.

I believe that Patrick McNamara is most likely the son of Matthew McNamara but require his 1868 death record as further evidence to support this theory. One thing to consider with attaching Patrick to a Martin McNamara family of Glendree is that we already have a Martin McNamara, a widower, who died in Uggoon in 1878; so I believe the two stories should coincide which might be a struggle. As far as finding the marriage of Patrick McNamara to Bridget Connors, it might be helpful to know where Bridget Connors is from; Winifred Connors who appears as a sponsor at the baptism of one of their children might provide an important clue.

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:05 am

Hi Jim
Yes, Winifred Connors might provide a clue. As you say, she was sponsor at the baptism of Patrick’s first son, Matthew, in 1873. The other sponsor was Mathew McNamara.

A Winifred Connors was sponsor at the baptism of a daughter (Winifred) of Martin McNamara and Judy McMahon, Glandree on 03.12.1836. She is not the same Winifred, I feel sure, but the two might be related. Or it may be just a coincidence.

I noticed that a Patrick Lillis and Mary Lillis were sponsors at the baptism Patrick and Bridget’s son, Patrick, in 1877. And that Patrick Lillis and Mary Duggan were sponsors at baptism of Michael in 1879. Lillis is not a common name in Tulla, and I remembered that a Peter Lillis was one of the witnesses at the marriage of Martin McNamara and Judy/Jane McMahon. But, again, it may be just a coincidence and one should consider whether it's worthwhile trying to establish a connection which may never have existed!

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:25 am

Hi Sheila,

With regards to baptism sponsors and marriage witnesses, I find it unusual that Michael McNamara of Uggoon would have two witnesses from Lisofin:

Michael McNamara of Uggoon married Margaret Halpin of Ballyoughtra in Tulla Parish on 30 January 1853. Their witnesses were James McGrath of Lisofin and Margaret McInerny of Lisofin.

Why were the witnesses from Lisofin? It is about 7 miles south of Uggoon, 1 mile southwest of the town of Tulla. Could the witness Margaret McNinerny be a relative? There were two McNamara families living in Lisofin Townland in the 1850's (Matthew and Michael) whose father(s) were also reported at the 1827 Tithes in Lisofin. It appears though that "Margaret" of Derrimore had "married in" to Lisofin when she married James McInerney. Their marriage was also in the month of January 1853, just a few weeks prior to the marriage of Michael McNamara and Margaret Halpin.

This is what is reflected in the Tulla marriage and baptism records :

1.0 James McInerney * (October 1831 in Lissofin - died 10 October 1891 at age 60 years in Lissofin), [son of Michael McInerney and Anne Ryan of Lissofin], married his third cousin Margaret Murphy, of Derrimore, [born 1830, daughter of Sylvester Murphy and Bridget Buckley of Derrymore East], on 19 January 1853, witnesses Cornelius McInerny of Lisofin, Mary Molony of Derrimore.

............ 1.1 Bridget McInerney (January 1857 in Lisofin), sponsors John McInerny, Bridget Buckley

Margaret McNamara (age 65 in 1901, age 77 in 1911) is listed as the mother at subsequent baptisms with James McInerney as the father; no marriage found in Tulla or neighboring parish records. <Lisofin, Ballyblood, House 2, House 2>

............ 1.2 Mary McInerney (July 1859 in Lisofin), sponsors Corney McInerny, Mary Hehir
............ 1.3 Michael McInerney (1861 in Lisofin), sponsors John McInerny, Ellen McInerny
............ 1.4 Thomas McInerney (1865 in Lisofin), sponsors Thomas McNamara , Margaret McNamara <Lisofin, Ballyblood, House 2, House 2>
............ 1.5 Patrick McInerney (1868 in Lisofin), sponsors Pat King, Margaret McMahon <Lisofin, Ballyblood, House 2, x>
............ 1.6 Anne McInerney (1871 in Lisofin), sponsors John McMahon, Honora Halloran
............ 1.7 Catherine McInerney (1873 in Lisofin), sponsor Catherine McNamara
............ 1.8 James McInerney (1874 in Lisofin), sponsors Thomas Conheedy, Bridget Conheedy

Margaret Murphy McInerney appears to have likely died soon after giving birth to a child in 1857. James McInerney would have married Margaret McNamara in 1858; but their marriage is not recorded in Tulla, Quin, Scarriff or O'Callaghan Mills records. I expected that the connection for Michael McNamara of Uggoon would have more likely been to Margaret McNamara, and not to Margaret Murphy. So initially I even thought the priest may have made a mistake with the names (Murphy versus McNamara) in the 1853 marriage record? But this is unlikely. Especially when the Murphy connection leads back to Laharden and to Andrew McNamara...

Derrymore East, Plot 1 & 2: Silvester Murphy of Laharden married Bridget Buckley of Derramore on 12 February 1822; witnesses Thomas Buckley of Derramore, John Murphy of Lahardan, Pat Carmody of Derrymore. "Silvy Murphy" and Bridget Buckley of Derramore had three children in the Tulla baptism register: Daniel (1827), Margaret (1830), Hanah (1833). Other children were likely born in the periods of the missing baptism register from 1822 through 1826. "Silvy" and "Silv'r" appear in the 1827 Tithes for West Hill, Derrymore, Tulla. On the 1855 Griffiths Valuation, Silvester Murphy appears for Derrymore East (Tulla) for Plot 1 (1 acre) and Plot 2 (31 acres). Plot 1 is a very small parcel at the northern edge of Derrymore East surrounded on all sides by Plot 16 (bogland), except to the north by Larharden Plot 13 (also bog land). In the 1901 Census, House 2, the 80 year old Thomas Murphy could possibly be a son of either Silvester Murphy (Plots 1 & 2) or Denis Murphy (Plot 3) of the Griffith Valuation. By the 1921 Rate Book, Plot 1 (land only, 4 acres) is held by "Andrew McNamara".

http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... e_ded1.htm

The father of Margaret Murphy was Silvester Murphy who was originally from Lahardan. Sheila, you have written several times about Andrew McNamara of Lahardaun (Kyle D.E.D) and connections to the Murphy's. This may also explain why Michael McNamara of Uggoon had Margaret McInerney as a witness at his marriage, but I cannot provide any family connection. It would be good to know who the 87 year old widow Bridget McNamara from your below data had been married to. Perhaps Bridget was married to an older brother of Michael McNamara of Uggoon?
1901: Bridget McNamara, aged 87, mother, and Andrew aged 55, Agricultural Labourer, brother (I don’t believe he is Bridget’s brother)
1911: Timothy McNamara, aged 69, single, and brother Andrew aged 72, single.

1918: Death: Andrew McNamara, Lahardin, Gardener, aged 80; informant: Thady McNamara, brother, present at death.
1921: Death: Timothy McNamara, Bachelor, aged 74, Farmer; informant: Pat Murphy, Lahardin.
In the 1827 Tithes for Derrymore East there were no McNamara's. By the 1840's and 1850's about six McNamara families are living in Derrymore East. Two are reported in the 1855 Griffith Valuation (Patrick McNamara and James McNamara) and about four other McNamara families are reflected in the baptism records with a Derrymore residence. Sheila, you will remember that Derrymore East is home to Thomas McNamara, whose son Patrick went to Lowell Massachusetts and married one of the Mealey sisters (see below link). Thomas McNamara of Derrymore might be the 1865 baptism sponsor for Thomas McInerney, the son of James McInerney and Margaret McNamara of Lisofin. Thomas McNamara would have been 15 years old, a good age for a baptism sponsor.

* The James and Margaret McInerney of Lisofin are not to be confused with James McInerney and Bridget Malone of Drumcharley who both testified against Michael Maley in an 1882 trial involving a "moonlighting" shooting (see page 17).

The Mealey sisters of Lowell, including Patrick McNamara of Derrymore:
http://www.ourlibrary.ca/phpbb2/viewtop ... f=1&t=2914
Last edited by Jimbo on Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:04 am

Hi Jim

You have done good work there. Yes, the 1819-1846 register does not show Timothy and Andrew. The 1846 – 1862 register shows: ??. 08.1850: Thady McNamara of Mathew McNamara and Bridget Airs (Crow?), Toam; sponsor: Margaret Hehir (page 28). The date is 3 years too late for Timothy aged 74 in 1921. Plus there is no Andrew. The other children for Mathew McNamara and Bridget Crow are:
12.04.1848: Kate of Mat McNamara and Bid Crowe, Tome; sponsor: Eliza Liddy (page 17).
06.4.1853: John of Mathew McNamara and Bridget Crow, Thome; sponsors: John Kennedy, Mary Connors (page 48).
13.05.1856: Patrick of Mathew McNamara and Bridget Crow, Tome; sponsors: Mathew(?), Biddy McNamara (page 62, left).
14.04.1860: Cornelius of Mathew McNamara and Bridget Crow, Fom(?); sponsors: (?) Donnell, Ellen Cullow (page 93, left).
But Tome is a distance from Lahardan, and John McNamara and his wife Anne [Minogue] are living there in 1901. The record of their marriage shows that John’s father was Mathew. I very much doubt that John is a brother of Thady in Lahardan.

It’s interesting that the McNamaras are not in Lahardan in Tithes, but of course the addresses in Tithes do not always coincide with Griffith’s townlands.
I found these two records for baptisms of children of John McNamara and Hanah Tuohy, which show that McNamaras were beginning to live in that area in the 1830s:
15.11.1836: Biddy of John McNamara and Hannah Tuohy, Lahardan; sponsors: Michael Tuohy, Johanna McNamara (page 73, right).
??.03.1835: ? of John McNamara and Hanah Tuohy, Derramore; sponsors: Michael Tuohy, (?) Mc (page 65, left).

Lisofin and its subdivisions belonged to Colonel Wyndham, and the rental drawn up in 1848 (by his agent, I suppose) is available online - Sharon Carberry gave me good instructions for accessing it – see topic: http://www.ourlibrary.ca/phpbb2/viewtop ... rth#p11085
That rental of cottiers includes this interesting note:
Lissofine Cotteen: Margaret McInerheny. Yearly rent: £8 0s 10d. This arrear (£14 2s 1d) left due by Margaret McInerheny to March 1848 when it was set to Mathew McNamara.

Tithes shows this Mathew McNamara, plus Denis McNamara, living in Lissofin. The 1848 rental is more specific and shows them in Lisofine Cotteen and Lisofine Crag:
Lissofine Cotteen: Mathew McNamara. Yearly rent: £19 11s 9d.
Lissofine Crag: Denis McNamara. Yearly rent: £13 2s 6d.
Lissofine Crag: Mathew McNamara. Yearly rent: £13 2s 6d. Half of this now held by Denis McNamara.
Lissofine Crag: John Canny. Yearly rent: £17 16s 2d. This arrear (£62 6s 7d) due of Canny to March 1848 when it was set to Denis McNamara.

One small quibble: you give the witness at Michael McNamara’s marriage as Margaret Murphy McInerney, when the record just gives Margaret McInerney.

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:38 am

Hi Sheila,

Thank you for that feedback. I tried to minimize the speculation, but you are correct that the witness at Michael McNamara's marriage was not necessarily Margaret Murphy McInerney, so I've edited accordingly. There were indeed several other Margaret McInerney's living in Lisofin: (1) Margaret, born 1828, daughter of John McInerney and Honor Shea of Lisofin, (2) Margaret, born 1834, daughter of James McInerney and Margaret Mulquiny.

Also the 1853 marriage of James McInerney of Lisofin and Margaret Murphy of Derrymore obviously did not state their parents which I included in brackets. But I took a second look today and found no other good options. For the 1891 death record of James McInerney at the age of 60, his widow Margaret McInerney was the informant. And the Margaret McInerney living in Lisofin in the 1901 census with her children was definitely Margaret McNamara McInerney.

With regards to the McNamara's and the Murphy's of Lahardaun, I believe the McNamara's were laborers working for the Murphy's who appear to be very prosperous farmers. Per the Griffiths Valuation and the 1921 Rate Book, the Murphy's in Lahardaun held large plots of land, including Plot 10 of 199 acres and of a high value. The McNamara's of Lahardaun were laborers living in Rural District Council houses. Patrick Murphy is the informant (no relationship provided) on the death record for Thady McNamara in 1921 most likely as a neighbor and former employer. Patrick Murphy's parents John Murphy and Kate McGrath married in 1865; when the civil marriage record becomes available online it will state their parents but I think it unlikely that there will be a McNamara connection.

With regards to Andrew McNamara living in Lahardaun, his age varied considerably from the 1911 census / 1918 death record, which both reflected a birth year of around 1838, and the 1901 census reflecting a birth year of 1846. In the 1901 census, unmarried Andrew McNamara (age 55) is listed as "brother", with widow Bridget McNamara (age 87) as "mother". Could Andrew McNamara possibly have been Bridget McNamara's "brother-in-law"? This would allow the Andrew to be the Andrew McNamara born in 1835 to Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara of Uggoon, only three years off the death record. Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara had children between 1816 and 1836, Bridget McNamara could have been married to one of the older sons (say John born in 1819, or Patrick born in 1820)? Unfortunately, this theory is then ruined by Thady McNamara listed as a brother to Andrew on the 1911 census! And wouldn't the older son be more likely to stay in Uggoon and not leave the land to younger brother Matthew?

Still no idea why Michael McNamara would have marriage witnesses from Lisofin. Perhaps there is a more direct connection to the McNamara's you mentioned living in Lisofin. But not a total waste. In looking in the townlands south of Glendree, such as Derrymore and Lahardaun, there do appear to be larger estates that would be in need of laborers. So perhaps the McNamara's, especially the younger sons, who appear to have gone missing from Glendree didn't all immigrate to America or Australia but could have sought work elsewhere in County Clare.

The IrishGenealogy.ie is an excellent website and beats having to pay for each individual record as in the past. But I often have poor luck finding records including the death record for Bridget McNamara of Lahardaun who was age 87 in the 1901 census. When searching for some names like "Carthy" it will pick up "Carty" and Mc Carthy"; when searching for "Patrick" it will pick up "Patt" and "Pat". But a search of "McNamara" will not include "MacNamara" results. Also, since still relatively new, transcription errors are still to be found. While searching for "Bridget McNamara", a summarized transcribed result stated death in 1928, at the age of 20 years, in Scariff. I checked anyway and the actual 1928 record for this Bridget McNamara was clearly age 80 years, the informant was her son Patrick McNamara of Derryfadda, she died on the 1st of January at nearby Knocknahanee. The site's edit notification was easy to use to report the error.

Bridget McNamara of Derryfadda was the mother of Delia McNamara who arrived in New York City on the 3 October 1907 on the SS Carmania with her cousin Mary McNamara. Delia was a nurse returning to Pittsburg, and Mary also a nurse returning to Washington DC. Sheila you will recall that after considering many options, we determined that Mary was the daughter of Patrick McNamara and Kate McMahon, granddaughter of Patrick McNamara and Kate Foley. The discovery of this death record has reminded me that we never determined how Delia McNamara and Mary McNamara were cousins or whether first or second cousins. Nor who was their aunt listed as their immediate American contact on the passenger listing: Mrs. O’Donnell, 307, West 47th Street, New York.

1.0 Patrick McNamara (age 50 in 1901; age 70 in 1911; died 9 February 1916 at Derryfadda, age 73) of Derryfadda, son of Thomas McNamara (deceased), married Bridget Rodgers of Dromin (22 June 1848 - 1 January 1928 at Knocknahanee), daughter of Michael Rodgers, on 21 February 1871 at Killenena Chapel <Derryfodda, Killanena, House 5, House 1>

............ 1.1 Mary McNamara (10 Nov 1871)

............ 1.2 Thomas McNamara (23 Mar 1873), arrived in NYC on SS Teutonic on 30 May 1895 (age 22)

............ 1.3 Michael McNamara (16 May 1875)

............ 1.4 Eliza McNamara (25 July 1880) arrived in NYC on SS Oceanic on 12 October 1904 (age 23), to uncle John Rodgers at 1129 Rush Street, Pittsburgh, Allegheny County, PA. Married Matthew Carmody, son of Patrick Carmody and Bridget Correy.
......................... 1.4.1 Francis Patrick Carmody (17 March 1919 in Avalon, PA)

............ 1.5 Bridget "Della" McNamara (1883), on SS Campania returning to Pittsburgh PA in 1907 with cousin Mary McNamara of Washington DC. She had an Aunt Mrs. O'Donnell in New York. Married to Andrew Aloysius Rodgers (born 23 June 1881 in Scariff, son of Michael Rodgers and Bridget Minogue) in Pittsburgh. Andrew Rodgers fought with the Canadian Expeditionary Force in WWI; family was living in Buffalo, New York in 1920.
......................... 1.5.1 Andrew Mack Rodgers (14 September 1909 in Pittsburgh)
......................... 1.5.2 Earl Martin Rodgers (29 September 1911 in Pittsburgh)

............ 1.6 Winifred McNamara (age 14 in 1901) <Derryfodda, House 5, House 1>

............ 1.7 Patrick McNamara (age 12 in 1901) <Derryfodda, House 5, House 1> Patrick McNamara of Derryfodda, son of Patrick McNamara, married Anne Moroney, of Leighort Feakle, daughter of Michael Moroney, at Feakle Catholic Church on 13 February 1917, witnesses Martin McNamara and Kate Farrell. Patrick was informant on 1916 and 1928 death records for parents.

............ 1.8 Martin Joseph McNamara (age 10 in 1901) <Derryfodda, House 5, x> Arrived in New York on the Adriatic on 28 April 1910, father Patrick McNamara, going to sister Elizabeth McNamara of Pittsburgh. Traveling with John J Rodgers of Scariff (brother-in-law?) and Mary Minogue of Feakle who were also going to relatives in Pittsburgh. Living with sister Elizabeth Carmody in 1920 Census. Married Catherine O'Malley; five children.

............ 1.9 Unknown McNamara (in 1911, parents reported 9 children, 8 survived)

Edit: further detail for children of Patrick McNamara and Bridget Rodgers.
Last edited by Jimbo on Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:55 am

Hi Jim

I agree that the McNamaras in Lahardan were probably labourers. Timothy is not in Lahardan in 1901, but maybe he normally lived there – that would explain “mother” and “brother”. And I agree that younger brothers often worked as labourers on other farms.

Good work finding that error on genealogy.ie regarding the death of Bridget McNamara (nee Rodgers) from Derryfadda. It’s going to be difficult to explain how Bridget’s daughter, Delia, could claim to be a cousin of Mary McNamara from Glandree. I think I suggested, at the time that we were looking at this emigration record, that the relationship might be through mothers, rather than fathers. But I haven’t come up with any real evidence for that theory. I have noted that James McNamara [Maherabane ?] married a Margaret Rodgers in Killenena chapel on 10.02. 1872; witnesses: Patt Rodgers, Patt Molony (Caher Feakle marriages, page 53). Unfortunately I can’t find the civil record for this marriage. The record of the marriage of Bridget Rodgers to Patrick McNamara, Derryfadda, the previous year (1871), is available and shows (as you say) that Bridget’s father was Michael Rodgers from Dromin. It would be interesting to know who Margaret’s father is.
Another Rodgers we have met with on our travels is Anne/Nancy Rodgers who was married to James McNamara in Clonagroe, but that marriage took place on 12.02.1850; witnesses: John Shea, (?) Whyte (Caher Feakle Marriages 1842-1861, page 71), and so belongs to the previous generation.

There are too many permutations and combinations. Also people sometimes said they were related, when they were only connected through marriage. I think that, in Canon Law, relationship through marriage is called Affinity, while blood relationship is called Consanguinity. Sometimes people, who had first cousins in common, decided that they themselves were related to each other, though, of course, they were not related at all.

Before you returned to Derryfadda, we were on the subject of sponsors at baptisms, and I was reminded again of the notable absence of McNamara sponsors at the baptisms of the two sons of James Madigan and Mary McNamara:
??. 04.1861: James of James Manigan and Mary McNamara, Liscolane; sponsor: Bridget O’Brien.
24.01.1863: Patrick of James Madigan and Mary McNamara, Tulla; sponsors: Martin Powell, Mary Daly.

I suppose Mary's brother, Thomas, and her sister, Elizabeth, had gone to America by then.

Sheila

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:25 pm

Hi Jim

When you raised the subject of a connection between the Derryfadda McNamaras and the descendants of Patrick McNamara and Kate Foley, I went back and read the part of this thread (beginning at page 12) that tells the story of the emigration to Washington, of Kate, the daughter of Patrick McNamara and Kate Foley, and of the emigration of some of Kate’s nieces and nephews to Washington DC, including Mary referred to on this page (above). Some of the children of Patrick McNamara and Bridget Connors, in Uggoon, also emigrated to Washington DC, and I think that your posting at bottom of page 13 is interesting:
We might also find a home for the Patrick McNamara who married Bridget Connors of Uggoon as most of their children also went to Washington D.C. In 1900, Washington D.C. had a population under 300,000; New York City was 3.5 million. Was it only coincidental that all three "separate" McNamara families of Glandree/Uggoon settled in Washington D.C.?
And I think that you are right and that there may be some connection between Patrick in Uggoon, or his wife, Bridget Connors, and Patrick who was married to Kate Foley. Finding that connection, though, is going to be difficult, if not impossible.

I don’t think I will embark on that search, especially as those McNamaras do not seem to have any connection to any Andrew McNamara, and so I do not believe that discovering more about them will lead us to the family of Mary McNamara (one of the witnesses at the McNamara-Madigan marriage was an Andrew McNamara).

I suspect, as I think you do also, Jim, that the family of Mary McNamara had all gone away by the time she and James Madigan began their family in Liscullane and Tulla. Mary may belong to the family of Michael McNamara and Bridget McNamara, or to the family of Thomas McNamara and Margaret Hawkins, both of whom seem to have disappeared from Tulla, or indeed to any of several other couples.
When those long-awaited civil records become viewable, we will get a few more clues, hopefully. However, I suspect that many of the deaths will be in the workhouse, and then, very often, the address of the deceased is not given.

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:20 am

Hi Sheila,

Thank you very much, I think you provided the best explanation for the Bridget McNamara household in Lahardaun as of 1901. And your reminder that Mary McNamara Madigan resided in LiscuIlaun Townland in 1861 is interesting as it is just north of Derrymore East. And thanks also for the previous information on records of the Colonel Wyndham estate from which the McNamara's of Lisofin leased their land. I had suspicions that Matthew McNamara and Michael McNamara of Lisofin could have possibly originated from Glandree due to newspaper accounts of tension with their neighbors. They appeared to me to have been "outsiders", but from the land records both Matthew and Michael McNamara were likely descendants of the Matthew McNamara and/or Denis McNamara reported on the 1827 Tithes for Lisofin. Both men had large families, I counted sixteen children born to Michael McNamara and Bridget Bourke/Burke in the Tulla baptism register from 1853 to 1882. Matthew McNamara and Michael McNamara held Plot 5 and Plot 6 on Griffith Valuation, but their houses were both on Plot 5. For House 5A and 5B, next door was only a footstep away. To the north of Plot 5 at Griffith Valuation in Lisofin are James McGrath and Stephen McGrath of Plot 3. The ordnance surveyor appears to have lazily drawn a straight line as a boundary that ignored old stone walls and brutally cut through fields to separate the two plots and families.

The McNamara's and McGrath's of Lisofin while neighbors had not become good friends:
DARING OUTRAGE IN CLARE
SPECIAL TELEGRAM
(From our Correspondent)
Ennis, Tuesday Morning

On Sunday night, about eleven o'clock, an armed party of from six to eight men attacked the dwellings of Matthew and Michael Macnamara, farmers, tenants of Lord Leconfield, residing at Lisofin, near Tulla. It was moonlight when they made the attack upon the dwellings. They demolished the windows with stones, and destroyed all the family utensils exposed on dressers in the kitchens of each habitation. Having so far carried out their wicked designs, they then fired several shots, shouting in exaltation, and departed. In one of the houses assailed, the parties within had full opportunity of recognizing five of the gang, against whom information was given to the police, by whom they were arrested. After a full investigation, yesterday, before the stipendiary magistrate, they were committed for trial at Ennis assizes. Their names are - Michael Quinlivan, John Magrath, Patrick Magrath, Thomas Magrath, and Stephen Magrath. One of the shots fired killed a dog. The cause of the outrage is attributed to a boundary survey, ordered to be made, of land to which the Macnamara's are about to become tenants, adjoining those of the Magrath's. The prisoners were this morning lodged in Ennis jail.

The Freeman's Journal, Dublin, 1 March 1871
This must have been absolutely terrifying for the two McNamara families of Lisofin, both households were full of small children. But I suppose at least the McNamara's as neighbors should be there for one another. And poor dog, most likely a male red Cur Dog. In the Registry of Dogs License Book for 1866, Matt McNamara of Lisofin paid a dog license duty for a male, red color, "cur" breed of dog. In the 1874 Register, Matthew McNamara of Lisofin has a new dog: a male, yellow color, "cur" dog.

Thomas Bewick, a British natural history author, wrote in 1790:
The Cur Dog is a trusty and useful servant to the farmer and grazier; and, although it is not taken notice of by naturalists as a distinct race, yet it is now so generally used, especially in the North of England, and such great attention is paid in breeding it, that we cannot help considering it as a permanent kind. They are chiefly employed in driving cattle; in which way they are extremely useful. They are larger, stronger, and fiercer than the Shepherd's Dog; and their hair is smoother and shorter. They are mostly black and white colour. Their ears are half-pricked; and many of them are whelped with short tails, which seem as if they had been cut: These are called Self-tailed Dogs. They bite very keenly; and as they always make their attack at the heels, the cattle have no defence against them: In this way they are more than a match for a Bull, which they quickly compel to run. Their sagacity is uncommonly great. They know their master's fields, and are singularly attentive to the cattle that are in them: A good Dog watches, goes his rounds; and, if any strange cattle should happen to appear amongst the herd, although unbidden, he quickly flies at them, and with keen bites obliges them to depart.

Source, includes dog photo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cur#The_British_cur_dog
It is fascinating to read through the Dog Registry books for Tulla that span from 1866 to 1914, and are available on findmypast.com. The breed of dog tells a great deal about the occupation of the owner and their wealth. Andrew McNamara of Glandree had a female, white and black, cur dog in 1866; the owner could have been Andrew Sheedy McNamara (1841 - 1904) or his father Andrew Sheedy McNamara (1802 - 1867). The same year Thady McNamara (1829 - 1904) of Kilmore also had a white and black cur dog perhaps from the same litter but that is only speculation. I don't see his father John McNamara (1790's? - ??) of Kilmore on the 1866 Dog Registry which could mean that he had died prior to 1866 or perhaps he just didn't own a dog. In 1866, Thomas McNamara (1825 - 1919) of Glandree had a male black terrier.

In 1874, Major Edw A Gore of Derrymore (House?) kept six dogs: two terriers, two spaniels, one pointer, and one carriage breed. A carriage dog breed was often a Dalmatian "trained to trot along a carriage to protect the occupants from banditry or other interference. They were usually owned and used by the wealthy or traders and merchants."

Wyndham Browne, Esq of Newgrove kept five dogs in 1874: four pointers and one red setter, all hunting dogs.

In 1901, Colonel John O'Callaghan of Maryfort had eight dogs, two males and six females, all spotted fox terriers.

In 1898 Myles McNamara, the British military pensioner and veteran of the Indian Mutiny of 1857, kept two sheep dogs consistent with his occupation as a shepherd in Corbally in the 1901 census. In 1866 the most common breeds were cur and terrier breeds with very few sheep dogs. By 1898 about half the dogs were sheep dogs in Tulla consistent with a changing agricultural economy and also sadly due to the evictions of prior decades. I wonder if the descendants of these Cur Dogs are still around in Tulla Parish today? Or do the modern Irish prefer smaller dogs, poodles and the like, for pets?

The National School Teacher Michael Moloney of Glandree paid for a dog license for a female brown terrier in 1901. Michael was born in 1845 to James Moloney and Eleanor Nugent of Uggoon and would have grown up with a dog in his household. On the 1866 Dog Registry, James Molony of Uggoon has a male black terrier; and Michael Molony of Uggoon has a female black terrier. From his poem "The Hills of Sweet Glandree" written about 1902, Michael Moloney was clearly a dog lover:

In the summertime, what sports were mine,
With my hounds, so fleet and gay,
To course about these hills throughout,
To the banks of Sweet Loughea;
There rich music swells like fairy spells
On the echoes wild and free,
Round that lonely lake where the cool waves break
On the Hills of Sweet Glandree.

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:12 am

Hi Jim

I think I have found the parents of Timothy and Andrew who are living in Lahardan in 1901. I looked at the transcription of The O’Callaghan’s Mills parish records and found Teady McNamara of Matt McNamara and Bridget Purcell, b. March 1846, in Ballymacdonnell; sponsors: Michael Elligot, Catherine McNamara. Then a search of “Purcell” showed me a Bridget McNamara of Mathew McNamara and Bridget Purcell, b. Jan. 1844 in Ballymacdonnell; sponsors: Thomas Canny, Margaret McNamara. A search of “Andrew” showed me an Andrew McNamara of Mathew McNamara and Bridget Xureex [close examination shows this is Purcell], b. Feb 1837 in Ballymacdonnell; sponsors: Dennis Hayes, Mary McNamara.

Looking at the McNamaras in the O’Callaghan’s Mills baptisms, I noticed that James McNamara and Kate Stundons, who are in Clonloum townland* for the baptism of their daughter Anne in June 1861, were in Derrymore (Tulla) for the baptisms of John on 29.06.1848, and for a second John on 11.07.1851. I think there was probably a lot of movement between Clonloum and Derrymore and surrounding townlands.
* in Clonlea civil parish and in O'Callaghan's Mills Catholic parish

You mention that irishgenealogy.ie does not recognize MacNamara as the same name as McNamara, and I discovered recently that some people were registered as Mack. It’s understandable, though, that Mack is not included under McNamara, as it was short for other surnames in other counties (as you found with one Thomas McEnroe earlier in this thread) - in Co. Cork it is short for McCarthy. There are 64 people registered as Mack in Tulla Union – most of these come from the registration districts of Kilkishen, and Quin, but remember that both these registration districts include a couple of townlands belonging to Tulla parish.

I looked through the Mack records and found nothing of interest (relevant to the search for Mary Madigan’s family), apart from a record of the birth of John Mack to Patrick Mack and Mary McMahon in Derramore (Derrymore East is in Kilkishen registration district). Derrymore East interests us because the Kyle Rate Book (1927) shows an Andrew Mack as the owner of Lot 1, which had been leased by Sylvester Murphy at the time of Griffith’s Valuation, and we are reminded of a connection between the Murphys and the McNamaras in Lahardan townland also.

Griffith’s Valuation for Derrymore East shows Patrick and James McNamara leasing lots 13 and 14. The 1901 and 1911 censuses show only the family of Thomas McNamara living in that townland, and a James McNamara, who is a servant in the household of John Bourke. Thomas had come from the neighbouring townland of Cloonloum, in the parish of Clonlea, according to the record of his marriage to Ellen Hogan in 1878**. James gives widely differing ages in the censuses: in 1901 he is 47; in 1911 he is 72, so it’s difficult to say when he was born, and if he was a descendant of either Patrick or James.

There is a Patrick McNamara who was living in Derrymore in the 1860s. He is the father of John Mack (above). He was married to Mary McMahon, and the Tulla baptisms show three baptisms for this couple:
23.06.1863: Mary of Patrick McNamara and Mary McMahon, Derrymore Carmody; sponsors: James McNamara, Mary Fitzgerald.
??.11.1865: John* of Pat McNamara and Mary McMahon, Derryanca(?)y; sponsors: Patrick McNamara, Catherine McGrath.
25.04.1868: Anne of Pat McNamara and Mary McMahon, Derrymore Carmody; sponsors: Mat McInerny, Mary McNamara.

*John was registered as John Mack, in 1865 (Kilkishen registration district, Tulla Union). The occupation of his father, Patt Mack, Derramore, is Farmer. His sister, Anne, was registered as Anne McNamara in 1868. This time the occupation of Pat is Labourer.

Death 12.10.1878: Mary McNamara, Derramore, aged 40, widow of Labourer; informant: Mary McNamara, present at death, Derramore. The death of Patrick sometime between 1868 and 1878 was probably registered, but not viewable yet.

**The Tulla parish marriage records 1862 – 1880 show the marriage of Thomas McNamara, from O’Callaghan’s Mills, to Ellen Hogan, Derrymore, on 07.02.1878. But the civil record is more specific and gives his address as Cloonloum, which is in Clonlea parish. Cloonloum lies very close to Derrymore East. Thomas’s father is Michael McNamara, Farmer, and Thomas’s occupation is Farm Labourer. So this Thomas McNamara may have married in, and may not be descended from the McNamaras who were living in Derrymore at the time of Griffith’s Valuation – but, then again, he may be.

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:13 am

Hi Sheila,

With regards to the Irishgenealogy.ie search engine, I should clarify that it appears to pick up "MacNamara" when searching for "McNamara" baptisms and marriages, but it was only for the death records that didn't include MacNamara and McNamara in the same search results.

Thanks for your efforts in searching for the McNamara's in the townlands south of Glandree and in the O'Callaghan Mills parish records. However, I'm starting to wonder with our recent foray into Lisofin and Derrymore East and the Tulla dog license records, if we may have lost the scent in the search for the missing Civil War soldier Thomas McNamara . My gut feeling is that the search for the family of the missing Thomas McNamara will most likely lead to the northern part of Glandree and into neighboring Magherabane and Feakle. And Sheila, are we perhaps too quick to decide that the family of Patrick McNamara and Bridget Rodgers of Derryfadda had no connection to an Andrew McNamara and is not worthy of a second look?

The two nurses and cousins who arrived in New York from their 1907 trip to Ireland, Mary McNamara of Glandree returning to Washington DC, and Della McNamara of Derryfadda returning to Pittsburgh, had listed as their contact person "Aunt Mrs. K. O'Donnell at 307 W 47th St New York". I had a snoop around 307 W 47th Street which is in the Manhattan neighborhood known as "Hell's Kitchen". Back in the day it was popular with Irish immigrants and as you might have guessed from the name it was a rough neighborhood. It is very close to Times Square and as recent as the 1980's you'd want to be careful walking there at night. Times Square is now as safe as Disneyland and the four story apartment at 307 W 47th Street has survived. On the ground level is a trendy restaurant and cocktail bar "Dutch Freds" named after the policeman who supposedly coined the term "Hell's Kitchen" for the neighborhood. In the 1910 census, their "Aunt" is still living at 307 W 47th, but has remarried and is now "Kate Donohue" (age 38) with her husband "Patrick J. Donohue" (age 42), and two children from her first marriage "Mary O'Donnell" (age 11) and "James O'Donnell" (age 9) both born in New Jersey, as well as "Thomas Donohue" (age 1) born in New York. So Mary McNamara and Della McNamara in 1907 appear to have most likely been visiting the widow Kate O'Donnell and her two children.

Surprisingly in the New Jersey records there were several children born "James" around 1900 to a "O'Donnell" father and a mother named "Kate". Kate could have had the maiden name "Corbett", "Barr", "Duggan" or "Dougherty". In the 1920 Census, Patrick "Dorrough" (age 49), his wife Kate (age 40), step-daughter Mary O'Donnell (age 21), and Thomas "Dorrough" (age 10) are living at 452 W 57th Street in New York. There is also a "James O'Donnell" (age 19) living with his uncle "Luke Doloughty" (age 37) and young family at 465 West 66th Street, New York. Is this enough evidence to conclude that their aunt was Kate Dougherty/Douloughty? Fortunately (for our investigation anyway), James O'Donnell on the 29 December 1920 was sent up the river to Sing Sing and his admission record states last residence as 452 W 57th Street (his mother's address); and name of relative as "Mrs. Doloughty" of 465 W 66 Street (his uncle's address); and that he was born in Englewood, New Jersey; father was reported as deceased, mother as living. The two cousins in 1907 were definitely visiting Kate Dougherty O'Donnell.

Kate Dougherty and Patrick O'Donnell were married in Manhattan on 17 February 1898. Daughter Mary was born on 29 December 1898 and son James born on 3 November 1900, both in Englewood, New Jersey. When Catherine [Dougherty O'Donnell] Donohue died on 1 September 1929 in the Bronx, her parents were reported as Michael Dougherty and Catherine Connors. Her age of 49 (birth in 1880) reported by her husband Patrick J Donohue was not consistent with the 1910 census report (born about 1872) but identical to the 1920 census (born about 1880). Catherine's brother Lucas Dohoughty (age 37 in 1920) did not arrive in the USA until 1904, and I reckon Lucas is living at House 5 in Sheeanin, Beagh, County Galway: father Michael Doloughy (age 61), wife Bridget (age 58) and children James (age 24), Luke (age 22), and a boarder named Michael Connors. This same Luke was baptized on 27 August 1879 to Michael Dohoughty and Bridget Connors in Gort, Galway. It appears that Catherine Donohue's death record was incorrect with her mother's first name, but I did not look for her baptism record. Gort and Sheeaun in County Galway are very close to the border with County Clare and about 11 miles northwest of Derryfadda.

Interesting that following up on this lead has brought us back to the Connors surname, but the mothers of the two McNamara nurses were Rodgers and McMahon. I reckon their connection to Kate Dougherty O'Donnell of 307 W 47th Street was to her deceased husband Patrick J O'Donnell. Unfortunately, despite birth records for their two children in December 1898 and November 1900 in Englewood, I could not find the family on the 1900 census which would provide the age for Patrick O'Donnell. However, I strongly reckon that Patrick was baptized 12 February 1854 in Caher Feakle Parish, parents Edmond O'Donnell and Biddy Rodgers of Slieveanore, sponsors John O'Donnell and Mary Rodgers. Slieveanore Townland, very large in size, is separated from tiny Derryfadda Townland to the west by just two other townlands.

So Bridget Rodgers McNamara of Derryfadda, the mother of Della McNamara, is likely related somehow to Biddy (also Bridget?) Rodgers O'Donnell of Sleiveanore. Most likely a cousin relationship. It would not be uncommon for a child to call her mother's cousin (or wife of cousin) an "Aunt" as a sign of respect although technically a first cousin once removed.

This still does not explain how on the 1907 passenger listing that Della McNamara, daughter of Patrick McNamara of Derryfadda, was a "cousin" of Mary McNamara, daughter of Patrick McNamara of Glandree. Perhaps their respective grandfathers, Thomas McNamara and Patrick McNamara, were brothers making them second cousins?

Della McNamara returned to Pittsburgh in 1907 after visiting her father in Derryfadda. She was reported on the passenger listing and on all American documents as "Della"; I reported her as "Delia" in prior posts in error. Della McNamara married Andrew Aloysius Rodgers, of Scariff, born 24 June 1882, son of Michael Rodgers and Bridget Minogue, in about 1908 (their marriage record is unknown). Della Agnes McNamara and Andrew Aloysius Rodgers of Pittsburgh had their first born son on 14 September 1909 named "Andrew Mack Rodgers". What an interesting name, "Andrew Mack".

During the Great War, Andrew Rodgers of Pittsburgh at the age of 36 left his wife Della and two young sons and enlisted in Toronto with the Canadian Expeditionary Force on 20 March 1918 (per records on Fold3.com). Did Andrew enlist in Canada because at age 36 he was unable to volunteer in the USA? By March 1918 America had already entered the war (April 1917), but the first registration was for men between ages 21 and 30. Or did Canada provide a quicker route to the action at the Western Front? Andrew Rodgers first arrived in England in April 1918 and he was stationed in France with the 75th Battalion Infantry. He returned to Canada on 31 May 1919 after the end of the war and was on a ship manifest arriving in Buffalo from Toronto in June 1919. Andrew and Della Rodgers with their two sons Andrew Mack and Earl Martin were living in Buffalo, New York on the 1920 USA Census. 

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:46 am

Wow! That is really good work.
Firstly, I agree that the foray into Lisofin and Derrymore is losing the scent. And I would include Liscullane* in that foray.
Good work finding Mrs. O’Donnell – that took some doing – even with James O’Donnell obligingly getting sent to Sing Sing. And good work finding her brother Luke and his origins – how did you even think of looking for him? And yes, it is interesting that we are brought back to the Connors name. You have taken a bit of a leap in deciding the origins of Patrick O’Donnell, but I think you are right in placing him with the O’Donnells in Slieveanore (Sliabh an Óir = The Mountain of the Gold). All of this showing a chain of Rodgers’ marriages.
But, I agree with you again, the likelihood is that Thomas McNamara, the grandfather of Della, and Patrick McNamara, the grandfather of Mary McNmaara, were brothers. That certainly is the most straightforward explanation for Della's and Mary’s claim to cousinship.

Yes, “Andrew Mack” is an interesting name. Della was not going to let the McNamara side get totally swamped by the Rodgers side.

I wonder if Andrew Aloysius Rodgers had entered the US from Canada illegally. This, I believe, was common enough at the time. There’s an amusing piece in an article by Oliver Mahon, entitled “Derrygoolin” in Sliabh Aughty, Journal No. 16. He writes that his uncle went first to Canada, and then entered the United States illegally by getting himself transported at night by motorboat across the Detroit River:
“When the boat approached the United States shore the nervous pilot shouted “Jump, you Irish bastards, jump”, and the passengers threw themselves into the water as the boat turned and darted away; fortunately they were in the shallows and could struggle ashore and disappear into the night. He might have well stayed on as an illegal immigrant (it was easy enough in those days) but when he met his future wife she refused to marry him until he had regularized his situation. This forced him to re-enter Canada, also surreptitiously, so that he had the dubious distinction of having illegally entered two jurisdictions. In due course he resolved his issues, entered the United States legally this time (and presumably dry), married his sweetheart and settled down to life in America”.

The parish of Beagh is that part of Co. Galway that lies “into” Co. Clare, just as a head lies into a pillow. There’s bound to be many, many connections between the people of that parish and people living in Co. Clare. One such family I’ve encountered is the Forde family, some of whom went to Washington D.C., where they worked as stone cutters and stone masons at the time that that city was growing, and in due course got into the saloon business (as night follows day). Needless to remark, a couple of them ended up in St. Elizabeth’s Hospital. I wonder if there is a similar connection between the O’Connors and Washington D.C. – but it’s better not to go off at that angle, and end up nowhere.

*About Liscullane: I am of the opinion that Mary Madigan nee McNamara’s connection to Liscullane has no bearing on any McNamaras living there. I believe she and James were staying there at the birth of their first child in 1861 because James’s family was living there at that time. Admittedly my basis for this is just a couple of records: (1) The death in 1884 of Mary Madigan, aged 83, in Tulla workhouse; address: Liscullane. (2) Griffith’s valuation shows a Mary Madigan living in Liscullaun, Lot 14 Bc (just a small house valued at 3s, leased from Cornelius Halloran – he has the second best house in the townland, valued at £1 15s. The best house is leased by Rev. Patrick Sheehy).
I know you disagree and that you believe that James Madigan is the son of James Mangan and Catherine Costelloe, who was born in Affog, in 1841. But I don’t want to dwell on the Madigans – just want to provide a reason for getting away from Liscullane, and returning to the middle, and north of the parish again.

Thank you for your posting, Jim - it was very interesting.

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:00 am

Thanks, Sheila. The story you quoted from the Sliabh Aughty Journal with Irishmen jumping from a motorboat in the middle of the night and then "surreptitiously" returning to Canada sounds very dramatic. The border between the USA and Canada isn't exactly the Berlin Wall. I know the source is an Irish history journal but I'd take this story with a grain of salt. For Andrew Rodgers in 1901 as long as he was healthy and could afford the passage it was very easy for him to immigrate to the USA as it would be for other Irish. Once in the USA or Canada it would have been even easier to cross the border. In the 1930's a Canadian just had to fill out a simple card requesting information such as reason for visit, who are you visiting etc in order to cross the border. These records for land crossings are available on ancestry, but I'm not sure what decade they start. At the latter half on the 20th century I recall just a quick conversation with a border agent when crossing. Canada has a goods & service tax ("GST") also known as "Go South Tax". In the past the big issue at the border for Canada (certainly not for the USA) was Canadians going south to shop at low American prices and trying to sneak back into Canada without paying import duties. Picture young ladies from Vancouver trying to return to Canada with their new wedding dress bought in Bellingham hidden in the trunk. Irishmen jumping from a motorboat in the middle of the night doesn't make that much sense. The only exception would be during American Prohibition, in which case the story's “Jump, you Irish bastards, jump” would have been followed by "And bring this liquor to dry land". Many Irish were involved in bootlegging during Prohibition (as night follows day).

Andrew Rodgers became a U.S. citizen in Pittsburgh on 4 March 1908 and states that he was born in Scariff on 24 June 1882 (1881 per Irish civil record) and arrived in New York on the Etruria on 5 May 1901. "Andrew Rogers", age 20, a blacksmith, is on the Etruria passenger listing going to sister Maggie Rogers of Pittsburgh. His ticket number was 9267. Next on the passenger listing was someone who appears to have bought a ticket at the same exact time, since their number was 9268. She was Delia McNamara, age 18, servant, of County Limerick, going to her brother Thomas McNamara of 3350 Penn Avenue, Pittsburgh.

I still couldn't find a marriage record for Andrew Rodgers and Della McNamara, but the 19 November 1908 issue of The Pittsburgh Press under a column "Marriage Licenses" includes Andrew A. Rodgers and Della McNamara both of Ross township. Della waited until after returning from a visit to her parents in Derryfadda in 1907 to marry Andrew Rodgers. Della Rodgers automatically became a U.S. citizen upon her marriage in November 1908 since Andrew had become one in March 1908.

Della's brother Thomas McNamara, age 22, had arrived in New York on SS Teutonic on 30 May 1895 but there had been no definitive record of him in Pittsburgh. Della providing his address on the 1901 passenger listing was an important clue and led directly to his marriage record. Thomas McNamara born in Ireland on 17 March 1875 residing at 3350 Penn Avenue, Pittsburgh, occupation a bartender, married Catherine Lydon, born in Pittsburgh on 1 November 1880, on 2 October 1902 in Allegheny (source Pennsylvania marriage records).

Through researching "Catherine Lydon" and discovering a birth record with her listed as a mother, we learn that her husband was known as "Thomas Mack". Their family would consistently be reported as "Mack" in census reports from 1910 through 1940 where they lived at Larimer, North Huntington Township, Westmoreland County (the East End of Pittsburgh). The couple had six children including an Andrew. Thomas Mack died in Larimer on 30 August 1933; spouse Catherine Mack; father Patrick Mack and mother Bridget Rodgers of Ireland.

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:59 am

Hi Jim

In the lead-up to the story that I related, I over abridged, and omitted that the subject was a member of the IRA and on the run and, after the Anglo Irish Treaty (1921), found his way to the US blocked. I apologise to Oliver Mahon, and to you and other readers for this misleading omission.

Good work finding Thomas McNamara, who was born in 1873 to Patrick McNamara and Bridget Rodgers, Derryfadda. It’s interesting that he always used the “Mack” form of the name. I’m not sure that his naming one of his sons Andrew is of any significance – he may have named him after his brother-in-law, Andrew Rodgers.

Thomas (b. 1873) was named after his grandfather, Thomas McNamara, I'm sure. All we know about Thomas (senior) is that he had died by 1871 (according to the record of the marriage of his son Patrick to Bridget Rodgers, 1871). Griffith’s Valuation shows no McNamaras in Derryfadda. But the Caher Feakle baptisms show a Tom Mac and his wife, Bidy Collins, living in Reanahumana, which is adjacent to Derryfadda. Griffith’s Valuation shows a John McNamara living in Reanahumana - it’s possible that Thomas is a son of that John. I’ve no suggestions as to the link with Patrick in Glendree, but Patrick in Glendree might have originated in Reanahumana, or Derryfadda, or thereabouts and, equally, Thomas might have originated in Glendree. The death of a Thomas McNamara, aged 45, was registered in Tulla in 1867; the death of a Thomas McNamara, aged 48, was registered in Tulla in 1867. I wonder if either of these deaths is the death of the Thomas McNamara, who was born in Glandree in 1821 to Thomas McNamara and Margaret Hawkins; sponsors: Andrew McNamara, Susan McNamara. We must wait and see what the civil records tell us.

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:33 am

Hi Sheila,

No need to apologize as I'm skeptical about most family stories that get passed down - only slightly less so with the added information you provided. In early 1921 President Warren Harding approved a bill that limited immigration per year to 350,000; the prior President Woodrow Wilson favored less restricted immigration and had vetoed the bill. So the fact that the IRA man may have had to immigrate to Canada in 1921 or so does make sense. But he would have had to make money somehow and during Prohibition transporting liquor into the USA might have seemed like easy money? The story does place him in a boat in the middle of the night crossing the Detroit River in 1921 during Prohibition. 75% of the liquor smuggled into the USA from Canada was from across the Detroit River. For his American sweetheart, "regularized his situation" could have meant getting out of the bootlegging business. These stories always have an element of truth.

Here is a interesting documentary about the Detroit River during Prohibition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORtxsQDb-M4

Sheila, at the start of the search for the missing Thomas McNamara of Glandree, my list of every Thomas McNamara born in Tulla included 5 men named Thomas born in Glandree. In the 1901 Census, there was a Thomas McNamara living in Glandree House 6 who was definitely not the missing Civil War soldier. I had suggested that he was Thomas, born 1829, son of Michael McNamara and Bridget McNamara. You cautioned that he could still potentially be Thomas, born 1821, son of Thomas McNamara and Margaret Hawkins. In a surprise twist, Thomas in House 6 ended up being neither; he was a son of a Michael McNamara (possible mother was Mary Cusack) whose Plot 3 land in Glandree was split three ways between Thomas and two of his siblings. Plot 3 was mountainous land adjacent to the border with Caher Feakle Parish.

Thomas McNamara and Bridget Hayes married in Caher Feakle Parish in 1863 and had six children. Their first born child Thomas was baptized on 11 December 1863. In January 1882 Thomas would have been 18 years old for just a few weeks and no doubt looked forward to the upcoming year. Perhaps thoughts of spending the upcoming spring around Lough Ea and of the Colleen Dhas whom none surpass, with hearts so light and free. But for Thomas, the year 1882 in memory's dream there would not dwell sweet thoughts of other days; nor the joys he knew, with comrades true, in youth's bright happy ways. For poor Thomas a fair bit of 1882 would not be spent in merriment On the Hills of Sweet Glandree, but in Limerick Gaol and Kilmainham Gaol.

And Thomas McNamara was not alone. About seven young men from Glandree and Feakle after spending about 10 weeks or so in Limerick Gaol would be transported to Kilmainham Gaol in Dublin on 1 June 1882:

Limerick Gaol Records:

For the below prisoners, except for James Moroney, the "By Whom Committed" was written "Cowper". On the later Kilmainham Gaol records it states "Lord Lieutenant". This must be Francis Cowper, the 7th Earl of Cowper, Lord Lieutenant of Ireland from 1880 to 1882. In the Limerick prison records only these men and a few others from Milton Malbay were committed by the chief governor in Ireland.

307: James Moroney, age 24, 5' 10", brown hair, brown eyes, fresh complexion, Feakle, committed 1 March 1882, inciting others to intimidate divers persons with a view to compel them to abstain from paying rents lawfully due by them; committed by "Lord Lieutenant"; "Removed to Kilmainham 1.6.82." [edited post]


348: Patrick Murphy, age 24, 5' 9", brown hair, grey eyes, fresh complexion, Feakle, farmer, committed 11 March 1882; unlawfully assembling with arms and maliciously assaulting a dwelling place; removed to Kilmainham 1.6.82.


364: Michael McMahon, age 24, 5' 9", brown hair, grey eyes, sallow complexion, Glendree, carpenter, committed 16 March 1882; malicious assault and wounding; removed to Kilmainham 1.6.82.

Most likely, Michael McMahon, son of John McMahon and Winifred Meany of Glendree, baptized 20 August 1857.


404: Thomas McNamara, age 20, 5' 5½", brown hair, brown eyes, fresh complexion, Glendree, carpenter, committed 24 March 1882; malicious assault and wounding; removed to Kilmainham 1.6.82.

Son of Thomas McNamara and Bridget Hayes of Glandree; by the time he gets to Kilmainham Gaol his age is corrected to 18 years.


560: Thomas O'Keefe, age 19, 5' 4", brown hair, grey eyes, sallow complexion, Tyredagh, laborer, committed 24 April 1882, malicious assault and wounding; received from Clonmel Prison 24.4.82; removed to Kilmainham 1.6.82.

Thomas Keefe, son of John Keefe and Ann Canny of Derryadda, was baptized on 23 December 1863; later baptisms for younger children the family residence was Tyredagh.


572: Daniel Bane, age 22, 5' 9", brown hair, grey eyes, fresh complexion, Feakle, committed 25 April 1882, unlawful assembly and assaulting a dwelling house; "Transferred from Kilmainham Gaol" (** or from Kilkenny Jail?); "Transferred to Kilmainham 1.6.82."

** The Freeman's Journal of 26 April 1882 stated "Messrs Daniel Bone and John Quigley (see below) were removed from Kilkenny to Limerick Jail on Monday".


573: John Quigney, age 23, 5' 9", brown hair, grey eyes, fresh complexion, Glendree, committed 25 April 1882, malicious assault and wounding; "Transferred from Kilmainham Gaol"(** or from Kilkenny Jail? see note above); "Transferred to Kilmainham 1.6.82."


Kilmainham Gaol Records:

For the below individuals the sentence was "unlimited", but all had an "expiration of sentence" date from June through August 1882. Under "Further Remarks" and "How Disposed Of" it is written "By Order of Lord Lieutenant".

631: Thomas O'Keefe, age 19, Tulla, cattle dealer; assault and wounding; released 1 August 1882.
634: James Moroney, age 24, Feakle, farmer; intimidation; released 22 June 1882.
641: John Quigney, age 23, Tulla, carpenter; assault and wounding; released 1 August 1882.
642: Thomas McNamara, age 18, Tulla, carpenter; assault and wounding; released 1 August 1882.
643: Daniel Bone, age 21, Maherabane, farmer; assembling + assaulting a dwelling house; released 21 July 1882.
646: Michael McMahon, age 23, Tulla, carpenter; assault and wounding; released 21 July 1882.
648: Patrick Murphy, age 24, Feakle, farmer; unlawfully assembling + assaulting a dwelling house; released 21 July 1882.


The coercion laws, they were the cause
Of Ireland's bitter grief,
And the tyrant's cruel that did her rule,
Would grant her no relief.
When Parnell cries "Keep heart my boys,"
The Sunburst yet you'll see,
And its folds of green, will float supreme,
O'er the Hills of Sweet Glandree.


From the poem "The Hills of Sweet Glandree" written by Micheal Moloney about 1902

Jimbo
Posts: 591
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:43 am

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Fri May 24, 2019 5:20 am

The past few weeks I've been reading a bit of history of Ireland during the Land War period. Thomas McNamara of Glandree imprisoned first at Limerick Gaol in March 1882 and then transferred to Kilmainham Goal in June 1882 was most definitely arrested under the Coercion Act of 1881. I had overlooked a very important clue on the Kilmainham Prison Register; for each of the men arrested by Lord Lieutenant Cowper on the far right column under "Other Remarks" handwritten was "PPP act". This stands for "Protection of Persons and Property Act" of 1881, more commonly known as the "Coercion Act". The men from Tulla and Feakle in the Limerick Gaol records had "Cowper" as arresting agent since they were all suspects under the Coercion Act. However, they were not released by Francis Cowper ("7th Earl Cowper"), as I had stated in my last posting. Cowper was Lord Lieutenant of Ireland only up until 4 May 1882; Thomas McNamara would have been released in August 1882 by his successor, John Spencer ("5th Earl Spencer") whose half-brother Charles Spencer ("6th Earl Spencer") was the great grandfather of Diana, Princess of Wales. The newspapers typically referred to the prisoners as "The Suspects" as most were never tried in a court of law; they only had to be suspected of having been involved in the Land War to be sent to prison.

A listing of those interred under the Coercion Act was required to be reported to British Parliament. Below is the link for "Return of Persons in Custody under Protection of Persons and Property (Ireland) Act, 1881, to March 1882" by "Mr. William Edward Forster", the Chief Secretary of Ireland. (source EPPI: Enhanced Parliamentary Papers on Ireland)

http://www.dippam.ac.uk/eppi/documents/ ... age/455252

A total of 935 men would be arrested under the Coercion Act. The above March 1882 report has listed 872 men; arranged first alphabetically and then numerically (with detailed information) in the order of their arrest. Most of the arrests were of Land League members in 1881 which is why the Ladies Land League stepped up in 1882- as mentioned previously with Bridget McCormack (page 16) and Anna Parnell (page 17). Thomas McNamara (870 of 935) and the others from Tulla and Feakle were arrested towards the end of the Coercion Act as reflected in their numbers on the report to Parliament:

788: James Moroney
848: John Quigney
849: Michael McMahon
851: Thomas O'Keefe
853: Patrick Murphy
854: Daniel Bane
870: Thomas McNamara

The first men from County Clare arrested under the Coercion Act, and among the first six to be arrested in all of Ireland, were also from Tulla Parish:
At 2 a.m. yesterday, at Tulla, County Clare, Michael Flynn, farmer, president of the Tulla Land League, and a young man, named Michael Quigley, were taken from their beds and brought into Ennis, when they were forwarded to Dublin. It is believed the ground of arrest is either the "Boycotting" of Colonel John O'Callaghan or the firing into the house of a National school teacher, named Darneen, Knockjames, a short time since.
Birmingham Daily Post, 10 March 1881
5: Michael Flynn
6: Michael Quigley

The firing into the house of the National School Teacher, named "Durnien", is mentioned in greater detail in the History of Knockjames National School on the Clare Library site:

http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... istory.htm

In the Kilmainham records, Michael Flynn (age 52; from Afflick, Clare) and Michael Quigley (age 20; from Knockjames/Afflick, Clare) were arrested by "Earl Cowper Lord Lieutenant" on 9 March 1881 for the Offence of "Inciting divers persons and maliciously assaulting the dwelling house of one of Her Majesty's subjects and shooting at one of HM's subjects". There was never a trial and thus no evidence was ever presented to support this charge. Michael Flynn was released from Kilmainham on 4 August 1881 and Michael Quigley was released on 21 August 1881.

Charles Stuart Parnell, M.P., was #224 of the Coercion Act suspects. His listing on the Kilmainham Prison Register (findmypast.com) is incomplete: the left side page is there albeit torn up a bit; but the right page has unfortunately been torn out of the prison register. Parnell was sent to Kilmainham on 13 October 1881 and released on 2 May 1882. So Parnell was out already by the time Thomas McNamara of Glandree arrived at Kilmainham Prison. And Michael Quigley and Michael Flynn of Knockjames were released a few months prior to his arrival.

For Thomas McNamara of Glandree, accustomed to roaming around Lough Ea in "the month of June, when the wild flowers bloom and deck the verdant lea", arriving at Kilmainham on 1 June 1882 must have been quite a shock. "That wide expanse would your soul entrance On the Hills of Sweet Glandree" was replaced by a cell measuring only eight feet by twelve:
LIFE IN KILMAINHAM CELLS

There is a notion prevailing amongst a very large segment of the community that the daily life of a "suspect" in Kilmainham is far from presenting any of the horrors or even inconveniences with which it is usual to associate with imprisonment. It is impossible for anyone to travel about the country and not become aware of the fact that this impression is very widespread - and the statements which have occasionally appeared in Tory papers have tended in no small degree to create and encourage this belief. Now, it is only right that the true facts be known, and that the public should learn what exactly is the nature of the punishment that is being inflicted upon the men who are imprisoned as "suspects" in Kilmainham Jail, under regulations of which the Chief Secretary during the debate on the Coercion Act gave such a rosy and humane description. The statement of the facts will further show the self-sacrifice of these men in placing themselves once more upon what is termed the prison dietary, and will, it is hoped, be a further incentive to the country not to forget their suffering brethren, and to spare no legitimate effort to make their condition less harsh and unendurable than the Government and the prison regulations would seem to have contemplated. The description is appended is from the lips from one who can personally vouch for its perfect accuracy in every detail, and upon whose mind the test of personal experience has fixed the facts beyond the possibility of their ever fading from his memory.

First, as to the cells. The best of these are eight feet wide and about twelve and a half feet high, the depth from the door to the opposite wall being the same. They are furnished with a small iron bedstead, a little table and chair, or rather stool - both of these latter being chained to the wall by a heavy chain. As a special concession it has been allowed that the friends of a suspect may supply him with an extra table or bookcase or a more comfortable chair, and by a further concession the rule of chaining the furniture to the wall is in these exceptional cases departed from. The prisoners are aroused from their pallets at about 7:30 a.m., and are allowed out until 8 o'clock, when they are again shut up for breakfast, and kept close until half-past nine. The breakfast is brought by a warder at between eight and nine and left in the cell, and in this confined, close, and at time sickening, cell, in which the unfortunate prisoner has slept all night, and in which by far the greater part of twenty-four hours have been spent, he is obliged to eat his wretched morning meal. It should be mentioned that the window - it seems a mockery to call it a window - affords but little cheering light at any time, but for many months of the year it serves but to make darkness visible. At half-past nine o'clock release from the cell comes, and the suspect is allowed to "exercise" until twelve o'clock. He may take this exercise in the yard - a gravelled yard with an asphalt path. The weary, killing, dull monotony of this walk no words can tell. The high walls are elliptical, save for a few yards where they are flat, and where it is actually possible to play a game of ball. This exercise ground, which measures about 40 feet by 15 feet, borders a section of the outer walls of the prison. The walls rise so high, and are so shaped at this point that in almost all seasons the bit of ground they enclose is dank, chill, and cheerless beyond description. When rain has fallen it is all gloom; a ray of sunshine would seem never to penetrate the spot; and the exercise which such a space with such surroundings affords must be the veriest mockery. There is a little shed and some seats to accommodate about five or six, in the centre of the yard. On wet days the suspects are allowed to exercise in an inner circle, which is roofed, and in which they move about like caged beasts. At one-o'clock they are locked in their cells again, and dinner is brought to them soon after; and scanty as is the meal, the time allotted for its consumption is close on two hours. They are then, at about three-o'clock, allowed out of their cells for more exercise, and winter or summer, are locked up again in those cells from five-o'clock until next morning. Altogether they are in close confinement for 18 hours of the 24. The cell window, as already stated, affords little or no light. Unless one has particularly good eyesight it is impossible to read save on an exceptionally bright day. Lights are allowed from five-o'clock until nine, at which time they must all be extinguished. Now what is this prison dietary upon which the suspects are fed? Let those who read it remember the men whose lives are in question, and ponder on the sacrifices they have made :-

Breakfast - 12 oz. bread, one pint of coffee, consisting of one-half oz. of coffee, one-half oz. of chickory, one oz. of molasses, and one-eighth pint of milk -- or as an alternative breakfast, six ounces of oatmeal in stirabout, with one pint of milk.

Dinner, for four days in the week - 2lbs. of potatoes, 9 1/2 oz. of beef, 1 pint of soup, with 1 oz. of vegetables, and 1 oz. of oatmeal. Dinner, Wednesdays and Fridays, 12 oz. of bread, 1 pint coffee. Dinner, one day in the week, 12 oz. bread, three-quarters pint of milk.

Supper - Every day 12 oz. bread, one pint of tea or cocoa.

Before discussing the subject, for the present we may mention an additional system of torture that is pursued in Kilmainham. The door of each cell is provided with a small square opening, covered externally by a sliding lid. At brief intervals, a warder pushes aside this lid and peers into the cell. The torture which this proceeding inflicts upon a nervously constituted man is simply inhuman. It is just that sort of agony that has driven men mad. When all these circumstances are borne in mind, and with them are contrasted the promises and fanciful pictures held out by Mr. Forster touching the treatment of "suspects," it is difficult to repress a feeling of indignation and disgust at the policy pursued towards those men, who even according to the Chief Secretary's mildest statement, were to be treated as untried prisoners, afforded liberal dietary, and towards no hardship was to be used.

The Freeman's Journal, Dublin, 29 December 1881
The Coercion Act of 1881 was due to expire on 30 September 1882. Nearly as soon as Thomas McNamara was transferred on 1 June 1882 to Kilmainham there were debates in Parliament as well as newspaper editorials calling for the early release of the remaining suspects being held in prisons:
... A general opening of the gates Kilmainham, Dundalk, Limerick, Naas, and the other prisons would, we humbly suggest, be a striking act, which would not fail to have the effect - the oil on the troubled waters effect - which an Amnesty never fail to have, temporarily or lastingly. Because it is made by a newspaper is no reason that the suggestion, well meant, should be disregarded. ... We truly believe that a great chance is being frittered away. The persons who are kept in are just as guiltless, so far as the authorities could know, as the ones who are let out. Why, then, deprive them of one hour's sunshine of summer for the mere sake of the routine of going through the empty farce of an examination of each individual case? Why not make a virtue of necessity? The untried prisoners, justly or unjustly arrested, must be let out in a few weeks more, or be tried. The old Coercion Act will expire. Under the new Coercion Act men must at least be tried once, no matter how. Why, in the name of common sense, then, delay the inevitable? ...

The Freeman's Journal, Dublin, 9 June 1882

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