Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

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smcarberry
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by smcarberry » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:28 am

Before you both (Sheila & Jim) go off in another direction, I can add an insight from have transcribed more than 7000 lines of the O'Callaghan's Mills RC Parish (a mere drop in the bucket compared to Sheila's output) and then viewing the 1840s-early 1850s section of the same priest's death register for that parish. The priest, Fr. Patrick Quaid, was from West Limerick County, with no apparent related families in Clare, so he was new to the names of East Clare when he started in 1835. He became well known for his advocacy of measures on the governmental level to boost the stability of his parishioners, which to me indicates that he got to know them on a personal level rather than just preaching to them in church. I have indicated elsewhere on the Forum that I think he even tried to make distinctions in his parish registers, between individuals of the same name who might have otherwise looked like one person on paper, although he never added the person's parent's personal name for making the distinction. As I went through the years to about 1875, when he retired from active service, I picked up the sense that when there appeared to be a mistake, it was with a family that he may not have known well, perhaps in an outlying area or new to the parish. One McNamara descendant is likely still trying to make sense of a bride named Catherine Mills, which is indeed the name on paper although no Mills family appears anywhere yet found in East Clare (nor Miles as a surname, a handwriting oddity of Quaid's when he made a final "e" the same size as the preceding "l"). So, I do endorse an analysis that considers mistakes in the priest's adding names to the register at some point after the event.

My own encounter with a similar instance of surname mangling happened with an 1860 birth registration in New York at the local level, when the doctor who supplied my ancestor's birth info gave her surname as Rochsle, clearly written into the record, for a family whose actual German surname was Boehle. Perhaps he couldn't even read his own handwriting if he took notes.

SMC

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:46 pm

Hi Sharon

I’m pleased to hear that you are also of the opinion that the priest sometimes added a name at some point after the event. I can see that you have made a close study of Fr. Quaid’s approach to record keeping – it sounds like he was more careful than most.

Well now, in my last posting I said that when more civil records became viewable we might find something interesting to work on. And then, this afternoon, I got a record from the General Register Office that I had sent away for a couple of weeks ago, and had forgotten about. It’s the record of the death of an Andrew McNamara, in 1869, at age 80: the image of the record shows that he died in Uggoon on the 6th Jan. 1869; Farmer; married; informant Bridget McNamara, Uggoon.
I think this Andrew and this Bridget are Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara, who, according to the baptisms, were living sometimes in Uggoon and sometimes in Glendree. And I think this Andrew must be one of three Andrews: Andrew who was leasing plot 42 in Glendree in Griffith’s, or Aw. McNamara Bawn who was leasing plot 43 in Glendree, or Andrew McNamara who was leasing plot 8 in Uggoon (a house and four pieces of land that make up 34 acres). It is, of course, very possible that Andew in Uggoon was also either Andrew in plot 42, or Andrew Bawn in plot 43 in Glendree. When I look at the Griffith’s map, I can see that plot 8 in Uggoon is very close to 42 and 43 in Glendree. If Andrew had land in both townlands, it might explain why his address was both Uggoon and Glendree.

Why do I not think that this Andrew (who died in 1869) is the Andrew McNamara Sheedy who leasing plot 47, 48 and 49 (Griffith’s Valuation)? Well, it’s because we have already established that that Andrew was married to Margaret Clanchy. Patrick Sheedy (McNamara) who is Pat McNamara, aged 55, in 1901, is most likely Patrick born to Andrew Sheedy (McNamara) and Margaret Clancy in 1843. In 1911, Patrick’s son, Andrew, has returned home (he was not there in 1901). He is aged 33 and he is the Andrew who is listed in the 1921 Rate Book as owner of plot 48 – the same plot that was leased by Andrew McNamara Sheedy in Griffith’s.

Well, I’m glad to have received that death record, for Andrew in Uggoon, but I don’t know if it has any significance for Thomas the Civil War Veteran, except perhaps that the year Andrew died (1869) is the same year that Mary Madigan tried to contact Thomas. But there were several other deaths registered in Tulla that year: John McNamara, aged 69, Thomas McNamara aged 58, Denis McNamara aged 75, Catherine McNamara aged 74, and more.

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:31 am

Thanks Sheila and Sharon for the explanations for why a priest might make so many name mistakes in the marriage and baptism registers. Knowing more about the Tulla priest who was doing the recording would certainly be helpful (age, was he new to the parish etc). One thing to consider is that of my "sample" of 5 mistakes, 3 were from the same Fahey / Fahy family. Hardly a random sample to draw conclusions from. If we were to choose the same surname and investigate the 1846 to 1862 Tulla baptism register (sorted by mother), you might think that 2 out of 10 children were born out of wedlock in County Clare. Perhaps the Fahy families of Tulla were not big church goers and the local priests didn't have an opportunity to get to know them well.

Thanks very much for obtaining the 1869 death record for Andrew McNamara of Uggoon. In an amazing coincidence, that is exactly where I had planned to research next.

Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara of Uggoon had 7 children baptized in the Tulla baptism register from 1819 through 1836. But this includes missing baptism pages for the period March 1822 through August 1825 and I believe two additional McNamara boys were born around 1824 and 1825:

1) Michael McNamara of Uggoon married Margaret Halpin of Ballyoughtra on 30 January 1853, witnesses James McGrath (Lisofin) and Margaret McInerny, (Lisofin). I believe Margaret was the daughter of James Halpin and Anne McInerny born on 29 March 1832. Uggoon and Ballyoughtra are very close to each other, see below google map.

They had 11 children all in Glandree: Mary (1853), Margaret (1855), Andrew (1857), James (1858), Bridget (1861), John (1863), Anne (1865), Michael (1867), Catherine (1869), Ellen (1872), and William (1873). Naming their first born son Andrew provides evidence that Michael McNamara is the son of Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara. As mentioned previously, Michael McNamara was leasing Plot 60 in Griffith's Valuation of 1855. Michael McNamara died in 1889 at the age of 64. Griffith's Valuation was then revised to have his son John lease Plot 60. In the 1901 Census in House 30 in Glendree is John McNamara (age 30, should be 38), his young wife Hanorah (age 25), three children, and his sister Kate McNamara (age 20, should be 31).

2) Matthew McNamara married "Susanna" O'Dea of Drumcharley on 16 January 1854, witnesses Andy McNamara and John O'Dea. "Joane" was the daughter born 21 January 1829 to James O'Dea and Bridget McNamara of Ballyoughtra. Matthew and Johanna/Judith had six children all in Uggoon: Laurence (1854), Andrew (1856), Mary (1858), Bridget * (1860), Michael (1862), and John (1863). Not sure why Matthew named his first born son Laurence and not Andrew?

Similar to Thomas Fahy, I believe that Matthew McNamara became a widower around 1864 or so. His sister-in-law Margaret Halpin appears to have set Matthew up with her younger sister Anne, born in October 1845. Matthew McNamara of Uggoon married Anne Halpin of Ballyoughtra on 23 February 1867, witnesses Michael McNamara of Uggoon and Margaret Halpin. They had 6 children together all in Uggoon: Anne (1870), Catherine (1872), Margaret (1875), Matthew (1875), James (1879) as well as William (age 19) and James (age 12, maybe this should be age 21?) recorded in the 1901 census. The record of Matthew McNamara's death in 1894 gives address as Glendree and age 70 so he was born around 1824 during the missing baptism page period. His widow Anne McNamara is living in House 48 in the 1901 Census with her children Matt, William and James. As Sheila mentioned, according to the Rate Book this was a Rural District Council House.

Plot 42 in Griffith's Valuation was 8 acres of land that had been leased by Andrew McNamara with no house. In the revision to GV made about 1863, Andrew is crossed out and "Matthew" entered overhead, but also crossed out. The last name entered is Michael Molony. Plot 43 also appears to have been added to Plot 42 and leased by Michael Molony. Per Griffith's Valuation, Plot 43 was 14 acres of land leased by Aw. McNamara (Bawn) jointly with James Morony. In the revision around 1863, Plot 43 was transferred to Michael Molony.

Michael Molony of Glandree married Mary McNamara of Uggoon on 20 February 1878, witnesses Matthew Molony and Bridget McNamara (Mary's sister born in 1860). Mary McNamara is the daughter of Matthew McNamara and Johanna O'Dea born in Uggoon on 20 May 1858. In the 1901 Irish Census, Michael and Mary Molony (age 43) are living in House 47 in Glendree with their five children. Just next door in House 48 is her step mother Anne Halpin McNamara.

Sheila, I am very confused between Sheedy McNamara and Bawn McNamara. I had assumed that the family of Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara are the "Sheedy McNamara's". Who is "Andrew Bawn McNamara" of Plot 43? Who are the "Bawn McNamara's"?
Attachments
South of Lough Ea is Glendree, Uggoon and Ballyoughtra.jpg
South of Lough Ea is Glendree, Uggoon and Ballyoughtra.jpg (67.06 KiB) Viewed 22012 times

Sduddy
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:02 am

Hi Jim

I will agree with most of what you have there - and disagree with some of it.

Yes, Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara of Uggoon had 7 children (if we assume that it’s not a case of two separate couples – and I think that they are not).

Yes, Michael McNamara of Uggoon married Margaret Halpin of Ballyouthtra in 1853. Yes, they had 11 children, and their first born was Andrew. And yes, Michael died in 1889 aged 64. Yes, his farm transferred to his son John, who married Honora Corry.

The work you have done on Matthew McNamara and his wife Susanna/Joanne O’Dea is new to me, and I will take is as okay, though I'm not sure about about his becoming a widower and then marrying his sister-in-law, Anne Halpin. But a Matthew McNamara did marry Anne Halpin and they had 6 children as you say. And yes, Matthew died in 1894, so Anne is a widow in the 1901 census.

The work you have done showing that Michael Molony of Glandree married Mary McNamara of Uggoon, in 1878, is also new to me, and it is very interesting and fits with Michael Molony owning plots 42 and 43 in the 1921 Rate Book. The record of the marriage shows that Michael Molony, National Teacher, Uggoon, son of James Molony, deceased, Farmer, married Mary McNamara, Uggoon, aged 19, daughter of Matthew McNamara, Farmer; witnesses: Matthew Molony, Birdget McNamara (in Tulla chapel).

Now, about “Sheedy” and “Bawn": In Griffith’s, extra names (often the name of the father) are only added when it is necessary to distinguish two tenants with the same name. We know where “Sheedy” comes from. I believe “Bawn” (meaning White or Fair) may refer to the McNamara Finn branch of the McNamaras (Fionn = Fair). Here is what MacLysaght says about the surname, Bane / Bawn: An epithetic surname mainly found in Cos. Clare and Galway. It is formed from the Irish adjective bán (white) and often used synonymously with White. The Andrew McNamara in Uggoon might have been either “Sheedy”, or “Bawn”, but he didn’t need a distinguishing mark because he is the only Andrew in Uggoon. But in Glendree, there are three Andrews who need to be distinguished from each other. It does appear from the work you have done that one of these is the same Andrew as the Andrew in Uggoon.

Now here is a bit of work I did on Michael McNamara and Margaret Halpin:
The death of Margaret McNamara, Glendree, aged 49, was registered in Tulla (under Galway online) in 1884 (it appears from the record that she may have died in 1881). She is described as married, Farmer’s wife; informant: Michael MacNamara, widower of deceased, Glendree. This must be Margaret Halpin. The death of Michael himself, as you say, was in 1889 at aged 64. He is described as a widower and the informant is his son, William McNamara.
Now, the death of Margaret McNamara, of Lower Glendree, aged 92, Farmer’s widow, was registered in 1890; informant: Ellen McNamara, Lower Glendree. This Ellen must be Michael’s daughter who was born in 1872, and the deceased Margaret must be his mother (Ellen’s grandmother). Now that raises a problem. She must be one of the 3 Margarets in the Glendree baptisms: (1) Margaret Clanchy who was married to Andrew McNamara /Sheedy; (2) Margaret Hawkins who was married to Thomas McNamara; (3) Margaret Mac who was married to John Mac. I'm putting my money on the last Margaret (Margaret Mac). A Margaret McNamara, Glandree, married John McNamara, Glandree, in 1825. Their son James was baptised 1828, and their daughter Bridget was baptised in 1831.
Why do I not think that she is Margaret Hawkins? It’s because Margaret Hawkins’ son, Michael (Sheedy) was born in 1836, (a twin of William born the same year).

In 1901, House 30, shows John and his wife Honora [Corry]. The marriage record shows that John married Honora Corry in Killanena chapel in 1897. He is from Glendree, the son of Michael McNamara; Honora is from Derifadda, the daughter of Michael Corry; witnesses: Mathew McNamara, Honorah O’Brien. The 1921 Rate Book lists this John as the owner of plot 60 – the plot leased by his father, Michael McNamara, in Griffith’s.
The upshot of all this is that I must question whether Michael was the son of Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara. It seems clear that his mother was Margaret.

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:59 am

Hi Sheila,

Thank you for your feedback. I wasn't too surprised that you didn't approve of my suggestion that a widower Matthew McNamara might have married his sister-in-law Anne Halpin. My greater willingness to accept or even consider that an Irish widower would remarry does beg for a cultural explanation. I reckon your greater hesitancy to accept a widower remarrying is not having had the opportunity to watch the American TV series "The Brady Bunch" in Ireland. Such a high quality program, I'm not sure what justification the Irish censors would have had to restrict the long running American series (1969 to 1975) other than the underlying theme of a blended family?? "It's a story of a lovely lady who was bringing up three very lovely girls, all of them had hair of gold like their mother, the youngest one in curls. It's the story of a man named Brady who was busy with three boys of his own, they were four men living altogether, yet they were all alone. Until the one day ... " https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he4WPvKGGR0

Even after watching all five seasons, I reckon you would require more solid evidence. Fortunately, from the British Colony of Victoria in Australia, The Age newspaper of Melbourne on 11 April 1894 printed this marriage announcement:
M'Mahon -M'Namara: On the 26th March, at St. Francis's Roman Catholic Church, by the Rev. John Manly, C.C. John, eldest son of Pat M'Mahon, born at Gurthcummar, County Clare, Ireland, to Annie, third daughter of Matthew M'Namara, born at Uggoon, County Clare, Ireland. County Clare papers please copy.
Anne McNamara was nice enough to state that she was the third daughter of Matthew McNamara. His first two daughters Mary (1858) and Bridget (1860) were born to Johanna O'Dea. Anne (1870) was his third daughter, the first daughter born to Anne Halpin. It was also great that Anne stated she was from "Uggoon" which is a very unique name and perfect for searching a newspaper archive - see trove below.

John McMahon was the eldest of the seven children born to Patrick McMahon and Bridget Conway of Gurtcummer, Tulla Parish on 12 October 1867. Gurtcummer is less than one mile from Uggoon Lower, see below google map. John McMahon travelled all the way to Australia just to marry the girl next door.

Sheila, thank you very much for providing information on the death record for Margaret McNamara, of Lower Glendree, aged 92, farmer’s widow, registered in 1890. Not sure that this Margaret McNamara "must be" one of the three Margaret's found in the early Tulla baptism register married to a McNamara. There is always the possibility that Margaret was married to a non-McNamara, became a widow, and then married a McNamara later in life?

With your three options, one thing to consider is that we know her son Michael (and Ellen's father) was born in the Tulla missing baptism period of March 1822 and September 1825. This is supported by his death in 1889 at the age of 64, so he was likely born in 1824 or prior to September 1825. Of course, this assumes his death record was accurate.

1) Margaret Clanchy who was married to Andrew McNamara /Sheedy: They married on 1 March 1824 and could have easily had a son Michael in early 1825 that was not recorded in the Tulla baptism register. This option is also supported by Michael naming his first born son Andrew. However, Andy Mac and Margaret Clancy had a son Michael in April 1829. This option is still okay, if his 1889 death record overstated his age by 4 years. Michael McNamara married Margaret Halpin in January 1853, it is perfectly reasonable that he married at the age of 23 (born 1829) instead of 27 (born 1825).

2) Margaret Hawkins who was married to Thomas McNamara. As you mentioned, this couple had a son Michael in 1836, so couldn't be the parents of a Michael born around 1825 (that survived childhood).

3) Margaret Mac who was married to John Mac. This was your favorite option. They were married 9 October 1825. Thus, it would not be possible for them to be parents of the Michael born prior to September 1825. This couple did not have a son Michael in the late 1820's.

Another theory is that the 18 year old granddaughter Ellen McNamara did not know the name of her grandmother. She is likely to have just called her "grandma" or an Irish equivalent. Her neighbors called her Mrs. McNamara. At the register, she might have been embarrassed about not knowing the answer when questioned and just gave the name of her own deceased mother "Margaret" when her grandmother was in fact "Bridget". Mistakes are very common on death records.

But I do like Option 1 that Michael McNamara is the son of Andrew McNamara and Margaret Clanchy/Clancy born in 1829. Would be good to know when this Andrew died and see if it links to changes in the Griffith's Valuation.

Your new finding does make me wonder about my theory that the parents of Matthew McNamara are really Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara. One correction, this couple did not have 7 children, but 9 children in the baptism register. I had mistakenly left out: Andrew (1828, must have died prior to 1835) and Miles (1831). Given the large number of their children born between 1819 and 1836, it is very likely that they did have at least one child during the period of the missing baptism register of March 1822 and September 1825. I'm just not sure anymore that this child was named "Matthew".
Attachments
The Age Melbourne 11 April 1894 Marriage of Anne McNamara (trove archive).jpg
The Age Melbourne 11 April 1894 Marriage of Anne McNamara (trove archive).jpg (104.7 KiB) Viewed 21967 times
Gurtcummer and Uggoon Lower, County Clare, only 1 mile apart.jpg
Gurtcummer and Uggoon Lower, County Clare, only 1 mile apart.jpg (60.89 KiB) Viewed 21967 times

Sduddy
Posts: 1826
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:29 pm

Hi Jim

That’s a great newspaper notice you found showing that Matthew was married twice. It (almost) knocked me off my perch. A very informative notice, indeed.

About Ellen not knowing her grandmother's name: it’s possible, but I think it’s much more likely that the grandmother was really Margaret. I think I may have been mistaken in assuming that she was not Margaret Clanchy and I will look more carefully at that possibility.

You may remember that I got a death record in Sandfield House when I went there 3 weeks ago: 1867: Death of Andrew McNamara, Glendree, aged 65, married, Farmer; informant: Andrew McNamara. Who is this Andrew McNamara (who is about 13 years younger than the Andrew who died in Uggoon in 1869 aged 80)? I think he is Andrew who married Mary Clanchy in 1824. Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara (are they just one couple?) were already having their children when the baptism register was opened in 1819.

As you say, the Michael born to Andrew McNamara/Sheedy and Mary Clanchy was born in 1829, so, allowing a little leeway, he could be the Michael who died in 1889 aged 64. He would have been in his 20s at the time of Griffith’s Valuation, so it’s possible that he is the Michael McNamara who is in plot 60 and who married Margaret Halpin in 1853. Just one point about Michael that we must keep in mind is that he is described by the priest as being from Uggoon - which is interesting.

Now, for the moment at least, I will park Michael and Michael’s mother and leave the pre-Famine McNamaras aside and just confirm with you what emerges in the second half of the century. What emerges is that the plots 47, 48, and 49, held by Andrew McNamara Sheedy in Griffith’s, transfer to two of his sons: Andrew who married Margaret McEvoy (1861), and Patrick who married Ellen McMahon, and to his daughter Johanna who married Denis Cooney: plot 47 transfers to Andrew, plot 48 transfers to Patrick and plot 49 to Denis Cooney.
All of this was pretty much established by you Jim at the bottom of page 5, when you numbered the McNamara houses, as they are numbered in the 1901 census, and related them to the McNamara plots Griffiths. Then the information in the Rate books helped to fasten things down:
House No. 35: Andrew McNamara aged 55 and his wife Margaret [McEvoy] and 3 sons. This couple married in 1861, so we can’t be sure of Andrew’s father’s name, but it’s almost certainly Andrew McNamara Sheedy. We can deduce from the 1921 Rate Book that Andrew and Margaret McEvoy were living in plot 47 (at the east boundary of Glendree), which had been held by Andrew McNamara Sheedy in Griffith’s: the Rate Book shows that plot 47, and the adjoining plot 31, are owned by Daniel McNamara. This Daniel is not among the sons living with Andrew McNamara and Margaret McEvoy in 1901, because he is in America, but the 1911 census shows him (spelled Danial) returned home, with his wife and child. His mother, Margaret, aged 72, is living with him, but his father, Andrew, has died sometime between 1901 and 1911. Daniel’s brothers Michael and Patrick, who are in 1901 census, appear to have died soon afterwards - this probably prompted Daniel's return from America.
House No. 26: Pat McNamara, aged 55 and his wife Ellen [McMahon] and 8 children. This couple were married before 1864, so, again, we can’t be sure of Patrick’s father’s name, but it’s almost certainly Andrew McNamara Sheedy. We can deduce from the 1921 Rate Book that Patrick and Ellen were living in plot 48, which had been held by Andrew McNamara Sheedy in Griffith’s: the Rate books show that plot 48 is owned by Andrew McNamara. Again Andrew is not living at home in 1901, but he is there in 1911, aged 33. He is the only Andrew McNamara who could possibly be the owner of plot 48 in the Rate Book.
House No. 51: Denis Cooney aged 65 and three sons. This Denis is the widower of Johanna Cooney [McNamara] who had died in 1899 aged 63. Although there’s a number of Johanna McNamaras who were born about 1837, it is almost certain that she is the daughter of Andrew McNamara Sheedy. Quite apart from her being described as Johanna Sheedy McNamara at the baptism of one of her children, the Rate Book shows that Denis Cooney is the owner of plot 49 A, B & C, the same fragmented plot that had been held by Andrew McNamara Sheedy in Griffiths.

The next thing that emerges (from your posting above) is that House No. 48 in 1901 (Ann McNamara, widow aged 55 and 3 sons) corresponds to plot 42, which had been held by Andrew McNamara in Griffith’s. The Rate Book shows that it owned by Michael Molony. This plot had transfered to Matthew McNamara, who first married Susanna/Joane O’Dea, in 1854, and had six children, and then married Anne Halpin in 1867 and had more children (Ann is the widow aged 55 in 1901). Mathew’s plot transferred to Michael Molony in 1878 when Michael Molony married Matthew’s eldest daughter Mary.
One interesting thing about Mathew McNamara is that his address is always Uggoon, except in the record of his death in 1894 – then it is Glendree. It seems that at this stage, he and Ann had moved to a Rural District House situated in what was now his son-in-law’s land. His son Matt, aged 23, in 1901, must the Matthew McNamara who married Catherine McCarthy in Tulla Chapel on 10th Oct. 1913: Matthew McNamara, Labourer, Glendree, son of Matt McNamara, labourer (deceased), married Catherine McCarthy, Glendree, daughter of John McCarthy, Farmer; witnesses: Daniel O’Shea, Margaret Tubridy. Now, although Matthew calls himself a labourer rather than a farmer, I suspect that he may be the Matthew McNamara who listed in the Rate Book as owner of plot 8 A, B & C in Uggoon. I am taking into account that when Matthew Sen. died in 1894 he was described as a Farmer. This plot 8 A in Uggoon was held by Andrew McNamara. When you look at it on Griffith's map you can see the house there has trees around it and is quite close to the river that divides Uggoon from Glendree. The satellite view shows a bridge across the river at this point.

I haven’t figured anything out for Andrew McNamara Bawn who held plot 43 jointly with James Morony, except that it is a Daniel Moroney who owns it in 1921.

I keep hoping that Thomas McNamara and Margaret Hawkins will show up somewhere. I’m even looking suspiciously at Thomas McNamara Sheidy in Tyredagh Upper, but I see that there is a Thomas McNamara already there in Tithes (1827), so that avenue does not look very promising. Anyway, if Thomas moved to Tyredagh, I don’t think Mary Madigan would have put Glendree as the address in the newspaper advertisment when she was seeking information on Thomas the Civil War veteran.

Sheila

P. S. I took a snippet of time, when I was in Ennis yesterday, to go to the Local Studies centre and check the Clare Champion, hoping that the report of the death would give the first name. There was a report on Aug. 27th 1904, but it was exactly the same as you had found in the Irish World: no first name - just "a Mr. McNamara".

P. S. The Brady Bunch was re-run here about 40 years ago - in the late 1980s (I think). The Romans, the Reformation and the Industrial Revolution did not come to Ireland, but the Brady Bunch did not pass us by.
Last edited by Sduddy on Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

smcarberry
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Location: USA

Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by smcarberry » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:48 pm

Not to squelch the fun on dissecting families of Glendree and environs, as any insights are helpful for anyone's McNamara research up that way, but I happen to have something to show from the other end of this conundrum - Ulster County NY, in the area near Wawarsing post-Civil War. Doing entirely different research today, I ran across a Thomas b.c. 1834, without a reference to any Civil War Service but he died in 1868, which might explain why there were no responses to his sister Mary's ads. The surname is shown in NY records as Mack, and I know that has been somewhat discounted as a possible variation. Nonetheless there were McNamara individuals of East Clare who used that version of the surname, so it has to remain on the table, so to speak, until ruled out for a solid reason. The cemetery is one used by other Clare immigrants; in fact I have become familiar with this cemetery because it is the traditional site for the families of my DNA cousins of Ulster County NY, descendants of the Falvey family. I don't have Falvey in my family's records but I do have Moloney, and Fitzgerald would not be too much of a stretch, based on my family's social circle around Kilkishen in the early 1800s.
Both those names are involved with the Falvey family in Ulster County NY, with John Moloney apparently being from Scariff. I am showing a map with noted locations for Rosendale, Wawarsing, Gardiner, and Lloyd. New Paltz, mentioned in one news item for Thomas Mack's widow, is just north of Gardiner, due west of Lloyd.

I don't have a cause of death for Thomas Mack. I found the stock sale news item of Mrs. Thomas Mack in 1869 during a newspaper search; a sell-off of that type would be right for a widow. Apparently the widow and her children moved about the rural villages of Ulster County, with the son John's medical condition ("fits") in 1880 consistent with his lack of any occupation in 1900 and then his death in 1901. The daughter Mary stayed single and died in 1944, as the Rosendale cemetery stone shows. The son James had his own family and became the owner of a fruit farm in Lloyd.

Sharon C.
Mack, Thos 1834-1868 Rosendale.JPG
Mack, Thos 1834-1868 Rosendale.JPG (64.45 KiB) Viewed 21930 times
Gardiner, Wawarsing, Rosendale, etc..JPG
Gardiner, Wawarsing, Rosendale, etc..JPG (45.98 KiB) Viewed 21930 times
Mack stock sale, 4 Mar 1869 New Paltz Times.JPG
Mack stock sale, 4 Mar 1869 New Paltz Times.JPG (22.08 KiB) Viewed 21930 times
Mack, Cath & children 1870 Gardiner.JPG
Mack, Cath & children 1870 Gardiner.JPG (46.1 KiB) Viewed 21930 times

smcarberry
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by smcarberry » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:53 pm

Continuing with attachmenst illustrating what I just posted.
Mack, Cath & children 1880 Marlborough.JPG
Mack, Cath & children 1880 Marlborough.JPG (69.16 KiB) Viewed 21930 times
Mack, Cath & sons 1900 Marlboro.JPG
Mack, Cath & sons 1900 Marlboro.JPG (57.95 KiB) Viewed 21930 times
Mack, James & fam 1920 Lloyd.JPG
Mack, James & fam 1920 Lloyd.JPG (57.71 KiB) Viewed 21930 times
Noonan ad by John Moloney of R'dale, 16Jan1858.jpg
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Last edited by smcarberry on Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

smcarberry
Posts: 1281
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by smcarberry » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:56 pm

More on Moloney, Fitzgerald, which is connected to Falvey of Clare, all in Ulster County in mid to late 1800s.
Moloney, 1880 R'dale, neighbor of Honora Hurley.jpg
Moloney, 1880 R'dale, neighbor of Honora Hurley.jpg (78.26 KiB) Viewed 21929 times
Hurley gravestone R'dale.jpg
Hurley gravestone R'dale.jpg (47.73 KiB) Viewed 21920 times
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Hurley nee Fitz, Honora 1900 R'dale.jpg
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Jimbo
Posts: 591
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:02 am

Thanks Sharon for sharing your Ulster County NY findings. The search for the missing Thomas McNamara of Glandree will get back to NY research fairly soon. But first a few loose ends need to be resolved in Tulla Parish before I bid adieu to the fairest spot in Paddy's land, the Hills of Sweet Glandree.

Sheila, thanks for your continued help with the Griffith's Valuation and Rate Books. Below is my understanding of Andrew Bawn McNamara versus Andrew Sheedy McNamara as I focus on their descendants who remained in Glandree/Uggoon based upon Griffith's Valuation and the 1901/1911 Irish Census. This resolves many of the open questions from my page 5 listing by 1901 census house and also corrects a few prior mistakes [EDITS: corrected based upon Sheila's feedback in next posting]:

1) Andrew Bawn McNamara of Uggoon (death on 6 January 1869 at Uggoon, at age 80; farmer; married; informant Bridget McNamara of Uggoon) married Bridget McNamara (unknown death) prior to 1819 Tulla marriage register. Most likely Andrew and Bridget had other children born prior to their son John baptized May 1819. Nine children recorded in the Tulla baptism register between 1819 and 1836 with Glandree and Uggoon as residence. In 1855 Griffith's Valuation, Andrew leased both Plots 42 and 43 which were transferred to his son Matthew. Also Plot 8? Evidence of children who remained in Tulla:

1a) Plot 24 (House 17): Patrick McNamara, baptized 10 May 1820, sponsors Michael McNamara and Joan McNamara. Patrick married Catherine Corry, their son Patrick Jr. was born in 1856 . Patrick Jr. married Catherine McMahon in 1877 and in the 1901 Census are living with father Pat McNamara, Sr. and mother-in-law Winifred McMahon.

1b) Plot 60 (House 30): Michael McNamara (died 1889 at age of 64, possibly born in missing 1825 baptism period?) married Margaret Halpin in 1853 and had 11 children. Son John McNamara would take over Plot 60 upon death of father. [EDIT: Michael has been moved from Andrew Sheedy family]

1c) Plot 42/43: Matthew McNamara (death in 1894 at Glandree, at age 70, possibly born in 1825 missing baptism period?). Matthew married Johanna O'Dea (died prior to 1867), and then Anne Halpin. Numerous children all have Uggoon as birthplace. His father Andrew Bawn McNamara transferred Plot 42 to Matthew who then transferred to his son-in-law Michael Molony. Plot 43 also appears to have been added to Plot 42 and leased by Michael Molony. Per Griffith's Valuation, Plot 43 was 14 acres of land leased by Aw. McNamara (Bawn) jointly with James Morony. In the revision around 1863, Plot 43 was transferred to Michael Molony. Widow Anne Halpin McNamara living in House 48 in 1901 Census.

There is a possibility that Matthew McNamara despite living in Uggoon was a member of the Sheedy McNamara's? [EDIT: No, there is not]


2) Andrew Sheedy McNamara of Glandree (death in 1867 at Glendree, aged 65, a married man) married Margaret Clanchy (death in 1890 in Lower Glandree, age 92, informant [EDIT] daughter-in-law Ellen McMahon McNamara) on 1 March 1824. Evidence of children who remained in Tulla:

2a) Michael McNamara (born April 1829, died prior to allocation of Plots 47/48/49 to children) [EDIT: Michael who married Margaret Halpin moved to family of Andrew Mac and Bridget Mac]

2b) Mary Sheedy, born 1831.

2c) Andrew Sheedy, born 1833. Died prior to 1841.

2d) Plot 49 (House 51): Johanna Sheedy McNamara (Judy born Nov 1835) & Dennis Cooney

2e) Plot 47 (House 35): Andrew McNamara (aged 60 in 1901 Census, baptized as Andrew Sheedy in 1841/1842, parents Andrew Sheedy and Peg Clanchy). Parish records show he was married in 1861 to Margaret McEvoy. With wife Margaret (age 60) and 3 sons in Census. EDIT: Most likely Andrew McNamara fatally kicked by horse in 1904. Descendants state that they are known as "Sheedy McNamaras". See further research below.

2f) Plot 48 (House 26): Patt McNamara (age 55 in 1901 Census, possibly born in 1843 missing baptism period?). EDIT: Patrick's wife Ellen McMahon was informant at mother-in-law Margaret Clanchy McNamara's death in 1890. In 1911, Patrick’s son, Andrew, has returned home (he was not there in 1901). Andrew is aged 33 and listed in the 1921 Rate Book as owner of plot 48 – the same plot that was leased by Andrew McNamara Sheedy in Griffith’s.

Above children of Andrew McNamara and Margaret Clancy would indicate that they had children over a nearly two decade period (1829 to 1843), which was common during this period. Since it appears likely that Andrew Bawn McNamara had Plot 42/43 in 1855 Griffith's Valuation, does this mean that Andrew Sheedy McNamara had Plot 8? Who was Plot 8 transferred to? Or did Andrew Sheedy McNamara only have Plot 48 as noted above? [EDITS: OPEN]

Sheila, here is information that you previously posted on Andrew McNamara of Plot 47 who married Margaret McEvoy in 1861.
Their children were:
Michael b. 1862; sponsors: Johanna McNamara, Michael McNamara
Daniel b. 1864; sponsors: Patrick McNamara, Mary McNamara
Patrick b. 1866; sponsors: Pat McNamara, Mary Murphy. This child died.
Margaret b. 1869; sponsors: Richard Nash, Eliza McEvoy (Eliza married Pat Scanlan).
Andrew b. 1871; sponsors: Patrick McNamara, Catherine O’Neill
Mary b. 1874; sponsors: Denis McNamara, Eliza Scanlan
Patrick b. 1877; sponsors: Patrick McNamara, Ellen McNamara.
You also asked about the 2010 genealogy posting that mentioned Sheedy McNamara's that I will post in full here (from Liz Durack, who appears to live in Ireland):
My mother was Mary McNamara from Glandree, Feakle, Co. Clare, Ireland. Her father was Danny McNamara (known as Sheedy McNamara's). My mother had a brother Andrew and a sister Bridget. She also had a sister Margaret. Margaret was born in the US, taken back to Ireland as a baby but emigrated to US when she was 18. No contact since. Understand she married and settled in New York. Had two to three children. My mother, aunt and uncle have passed away. Would love to hear from any of Margaret's children.
Although no dates are provided, we know her grandfather is the Daniel McNamara who you mentioned returned from the United States; in the 1911 census Danial (age 40), his wife Mary (age 32), and American born daughter Margaret (age 2), and his mother Margaret (age 72) are living in House 25 in Glandree.

The Margaret McNamara that the posting is searching for was born in Manhattan on 31 March 1909 to "Dan McNamara" (age 36, born in Ireland) and "Mary Fitzgerald McNamara" (age 27, born in Ireland) according to New York City Births, 1846-1909. Margaret McNamara, age 18, an American born citizen, arrived in NYC on 25 September 1927 on the SS Adriatic. Her contact in the USA is her "Aunt Mrs. Lee" living in NYC. In the 1930 NY Census, Margaret McNamara, age 21, is living with Mary Lee (age 51, born in Ireland) as well as Andrew McNamara (age 58, born in Ireland) in a classic apartment building at 352 W 117th Street in Harlem. Andrew and Margaret are listed as "lodgers" but Margaret is clearly the niece of Mary Lee, and Andrew is Mary Lee's brother (correctly stated in 1920 Census). Sheila, this is the Andrew that you killed off in your last posting [EDIT: the reference was related to his father Andrew Mac]. In the household there are also two "cousins": Michael McNamara (age 29) and Patrick O'Shea (age 22) whom I reckon are more likely nephews. 1927 Immigration and 1930 census:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... print=true
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... print=true

Since Margaret McNamara was living in a household full of relatives, I reckon she maintained some contact with relatives back in Ireland. The best way for any Irish relatives to contact her American descendants, might be to find the relatives of her uncle Edward Lee and aunt Mary McNamara Lee and their descendants.
Last edited by Jimbo on Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sduddy
Posts: 1826
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:48 am

Hi Jim

Last item first: Thanks for enlarging on Daniel. Yes he is the Daniel who returned to Ireland with wife and daughter Margaret. But I did not kill off his brother, Andrew! The Andrew I killed off was Daniel’s father, Andrew who married Margaret McEvoy. He is in the 1901 census aged 60 and not in the 1911 census. Yes, his sons Daniel and Andrew both went to America – Tom McDowell's list of emigrants shows Andrew going to Daniel in August 1901, and I mentioned this in a previous posting. In 1901, the household is Andrew aged 60, Margaret aged 60, and three of their sons: Michael aged 39, Patrick aged 24 and Andrew aged 28 (this Andrew had not gone away yet). Michael died in April 1908 aged 45, Patrick died in August 1908 aged 31. So there was no one at home to take over the farm (plot 47 and 31 at the East boundary of Glendree) and that is why Daniel came home. Plot 31 had been added to the original farm because it had been passed to that family by Daniel McEvoy – the grandfather, or uncle of Daniel.
Before we leave Daniel, I should add that it turns out (from the information you have just given) that he is not the Daniel I was curious about. That is an older Daniel whom I cannot fit in anywhere in Glendree. He crops up in two civil records:
(1) Marriage Feb. 18, 1872: Stephen McNamara, Ayle, widower, son of Daniel McNamara, (deceased), married Catherine McNamara, Glendree, daughter of Daniel McNamara (deceased) in Tulla chapel.
(2) 1878: Marriage of Hugh Tuohy, widower, Feakle, son of Patrick Tuohy, deceased, to Mary Galway, alias McNamara, widow, Glendree, daughter of Daniel McNamara; witnesses: Michael Nelson, Bridget Reddan. In Tulla Chapel.

Now I will move back to item (2): Andrew McNamara Sheedy. And must admit I was wrong in thinking that Ellen McNamara who reported the death of Margaret McNamara in 1890 was Margaret’s granddaughter. No, she was Ellen McMahon, of course - Ellen McMahon who was the wife of her son, Patrick (aged 55 in 1901). Therefore Margaret was indeed Margaret Clanchy. So take out that bit saying granddaughter and put in daughter-in-law.
(2a) I don’t think Michael McNamara in plot 60 is a son of Andrew McNamara Sheedy and Margaret Clanchy. Even though I know it’s possible that he is.*
(2b) Mary Sheedy, born 1831 (that’s fine)
(2c) Andrew Sheedy, born 1833, died prior to 1841 (that’s fine).
(2d) Plot 49 (House 51): Johanna Sheedy McNamara (Judy born Nov 1835) married Dennis Cooney (that’s fine).
(2e) Plot 47 (House 35): Andrew McNamara aged 60 in 1901 etc. That is also fine.
(2f) Plot 48 (House 26): Pat McNamara aged 55. That’s all fine.

Then, Jim, you go on to wonder if Andrew McNamara Sheedy had only Plot 48. But it’s clear from Griffith’s that he had plots 47, 48, and 49. He transferred the three plots to three of his children: Andrew, Patrick and Johanna (in her case it may have been her dowry on her marriage to Denis Cooney).

Now I will move back to item (1): Here, Jim, I think you are conflating Andrew McNamara Bawn (plot 43 in Griffith’s) with plain Andrew McNamara (plot 42). And I don’t think we can be sure which of them it was who married Bridget McNamara. But I agree that Patrick McNamara born 1820 could be a son of Andrew and Bridget. And I think the Kate he married was Catherine Corry. And yes, Patrick Jun. married Catherine McMahon.
And I’m quite sure that Matthew McNamara was a son of Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara. I’m pretty sure that this family lived in Uggoon – in that house in plot 8 A with the trees around and the bridge linking it to Glendree. By the time that he died Matthew had moved to a new house in plot 42 in Glendree. I don’t think these McNamara’s were Sheedy McNamaras. I think they are the plain McNamaras, and that they are mostly associated with Uggoon.
*And I also don’t think that Michael in plot 60, originally from Uggoon (it seems), was a Sheedy McNamara.

Now, yesterday I was wondering about Thomas McNamara and Margaret Hawkins – the mystery couple. I wondered if Thomas had moved to Tyredagh, Upper (where a Hawkins family lived). I noted that there was a Thomas McNamara Sheidy there in Griffith’s. I see no reason for him to have been distinguished from any other Thomas McNamara in Tyredagh, Upper, because he is the only Thomas McNamara there – it may be to distinguish him from the other McNamaras there. He has only 3 acres of land. Now the Thomas McNamara who married Judy Neil lived in Tyreda at first - and then went to Steuben, NY. It’s just possible that the Thomas McNamara Sheidy in Griffith’s is his father. Now, if that is the case, then Thomas Sheidy McNamara is not the man who married Margaret Hawkins, because the Thomas in Steuben is aged only 32 in 1875 (b. 1843) and does not fit with the Thomas who was born in 1821 to Thomas McNamara and Margaret Hawkins.

Sheila
Last edited by Sduddy on Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:58 am

Hi Sheila,

Thank you for your timely review of my analysis of the two Andrew McNamara's. Your corrections are very satisfying. I never liked the idea of an 18 year old granddaughter being the informant for Margaret Clanchy McNamara in 1890 when she had several adult children still living. Ellen McMahon McNamara wife of her son Patt McNamara makes perfect sense. This allows Michael McNamara (father of Ellen McNamara) to be a child of Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara. This was my first conclusion, and once again Michael and Matthew are brothers who would end up both marrying Halpin sisters. Andrew Sheady McNamara and Margaret Clanchy did have a son Michael in 1829, but he must have died prior to the allocation of plots 47/48/49 to Andrew Sheady McNamara's children. I've edited my previous posting to make these corrections.

Another day I'll take a closer look into the land situation of the Andrew "Bawn" McNamara family and consider your points. I am still a little confused on this, and also want to research the family of Michael Molony who married Mary McNamara, the daughter of Matthew McNamara. Will edit afterwards.

Now for your theory that Thomas McNamara and Margaret Hawkins may have moved from Glandree to Tyredagh Upper where there were other Hawkins. You made an interesting discovery of a "Thomas McNamara Sheidy" in the Griffith's Valuation in Tyredagh Upper and wonder if he might be of the missing family. Twins Michael and William Sheedy were born in 1836 to Thomas Sheedy and Margaret Hawkins of Glandree, so there is evidence that the husband of Margaret Hawkins did go by "Thomas Sheedy McNamara".

However, is the term "Sheedy McNamara" really specific to Glandree families? From tracing the Thomas McNamara of Steuben County, NY back to Tulla parish we know that he had a father named Thomas McNamara living in Tyredagh already. Why couldn't this Thomas McNamara also be known as "Thomas Sheedy" and be in Griffith's Valuation? Plus, we can find no evidence of the children of Thomas McNamara and Margaret Hawkins living in Tyredagh. Nine children born between 1821 and 1840, where do they appear in the Tulla marriage register? I reckon this family immigrated to Canada in the 1840's and are included in the 1851 Canada Census under a very unusual spelling of McNamara.

Thomas McNamara of "Derryole" (Derryhala? very close to Tyredagh) married Anne Donnellan of "Knockacummen" (not sure where?) on 27 February 1821, witnesses Pat McNamara of Derryhole, John Donnellan and Francis Donnellan both of Knockacummen. This is a situation where I believe the priest struggled with the forename of the bride married to Thomas McNamara of Tyredagh and mother of his children. There was a Martin McNamara of Knockacumeen married to Anne/Bid Donnellan that might have confused the priest; and also casts some doubt of accuracy of below children:

1) missing baptism period March 1822 through September 1825
2) John (1828) of Teerida, parents Thomas Mac and "Nancy Donnelan"
3) Patt (1833) of Teerida, parents Tom Mac and "Biddy Donnelan"
4) Thomas (1840) of Teeridy, parents Thomas McNamara and "Mary Donnelan" - he married Judy O'Neil and family moved to Steuben County, NY.
5) Francis (1843) with no location, parents Tom MacNamara and "M Donnelan"

Previously, you found a death record for "Thomas McNamara, a married man from Tyredagh, died in Tulla Workhouse in 1883, aged 80" as noted on page 4. Thomas McNamara when he married Anne Donnellan in 1821 could have been 18 years old, born in 1803. A good fit. I believe he is the same "Thomas McNamara Sheidy" you found in Griffith's Valuation.

For additional evidence that "Sheedy McNamara" is not specific to Glandree but used by other McNamara's living quite close to Tyrdagh, check out this Australian obituary from a Melbourne newspaper:
WHELAN: - On the 13th August, at his father's residence, Bank Street, Richmond, James, the eldest and beloved son of John and Eliza Whelan, and grandson of the late Mr. James Whelan of New Grove, and the late Mr. Michael Sheedy M'Namara of Tomerla, County Clare, Ireland, in the twenty-fourth year of his age. R.I.P. (Illustrated Australian News, Melbourne, Victoria, 30 August 1878: trove archive)
The grandson James died in 1878 at age 24, so born around 1854. He was the eldest son, so his mother Eliza McNamara would have been born in County Clare most likely around 1834. From the Tulla baptism register: Michael McNamara and Mary Molony of Fomerla (very near Tyredagh) had the following children:
1) Eliza, 11 March 1834, sponsors Patt Molony and Bridget Halloran
2) Bridget, 1 April 1836, sponsor Margaret Molony
3) Michael, August 1842, sponsors Patt Molony and Bety Mac
4) James, August 1843, sponsor M. M?

When I found their marriage (I think as nothing else fits) in Tulla, it was very interesting:

On 25 February 1829, Michael McNamara of Kiluran married Mary Molony of Uggoon. Sponsors James Molony of Uggoon and Denis McNamara of Kiluran.

So this brings Michael Sheedy McNamara right back to a connection with Uggoon / Glandree. Not sure how successful this evidence is in proving my point! The sponsor James Molony of Uggoon is likely the father of Michael Molony who married Mary McNamara daughter of Matthew McNamara of Uggoon.
Attachments
James Whelan grandson of Michael Sheedy McNamara obit Melbourne 30 Aug 1879.jpg
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Sduddy
Posts: 1826
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:16 am

Hi Jim

Yes, I think we have got a grip now on Andrew McNamara Sheedy and Margaret Clancy - and their children and some of their grandchildren.
About Sheedy McNamara: the discovery was not that some McNamaras are called Sheedy McNamara, but rather that “Sheedy” was used on its own (without the “McNamara” bit) in the Tulla register (1819-1846). When I discovered that, I thought it might be just a Tulla usage – even a Glendree usage, but I think now that it was a bit more widespread. I had a good moment then when I thought I would find Thomas, Mary and Elizabeth hiding under the name Sheedy. But no such luck!

Thanks for the work on Thomas in Tyredagh and his son Thomas (who went to Steuben). This thread is so long, I’d forgotten that I’d found that death record for Thomas which showed he lived 1803-1883. Your work - showing that Thomas was from Derryole - nipped a bit of speculation that was mushrooming in my head (i.e. that Thomas McNamara and Margaret Hawkins in Glendree were the grandparents of Thomas in Steuben).

I agree with you that it is most likely that Thomas McNamara and Margaret Hawkins and their children went to Canada. When the rest of the civil records become viewable and show that there are no marriages giving Thomas as the father, that theory will be pretty much confirmed, I think.

Hmmm. Still I’m wondering why that Thomas McNamara in Tyredagh was called Thomas McNamara Sheidy. Is he another Thomas McNamara, who has come to Tyredagh – not from Derryole (Derryulk?), but from Glendree? But, of course, being called “Sheidy” did not mean that he was from Glendree, as you demonstrate so very well with that example of Mr. Michael Sheedy McNamara from Fomerla.

In the meantime I have turned back to looking at Andrew McNamara, who was the witness at the marriage of Johanna (Mary ?) McNamara and James Madigan in 1860, and wondering who he could be. I do believe he is closely related to the bride. I have found 7 Andrews, but 3 can be eliminated straightaway: (1) Andrew McNamara Sheedy (married to Margaret Clanchy) – he would have been aged 71 in 1860. (2) The first Andrew born 1828 to Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara, and (3) the first Andrew born 1835 to Andrew Sheedy (McNamara) and Margaret Clancy.

This leaves 4 Andrews who are suitable for the position of Best Man:
(1) Andrew McNamara (1818-1884): In 1860 he was aged 42. He married Bridget Kerwick in 1862. They lived in Bonavoree and in Tulla town. We don’t know where this Andrew came from - his birth preceded the opening of the baptism register.
(2) Andrew Sheedy (McNamara) born 1840 to Andrew Sheedy (McNamara) and Margaret Clancy; he would have been aged 20 in 1860; he married Margaret McEvoy the following year 1861. But I see that his sister Mary (Sheedy) was born in 1831, and she does not fit with Mary Madigan (b. 1840).
(3) Andrew McNamara who was born in 1843 to Martin McNamara and Bridget Foley (the Bridget who is in plot 45 in Griffiths and who passed it to Lawrence); that Andrew would have been aged 17 in 1860. We know nothing about him, but I see that his sister Mary was born in 1829, and she does not fit with Mary Madigan.
(3) Andrew McNamara who was born in 1835 to Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara in Uggoon. He would have been aged 25 in 1860. There is no Mary in that family – at least not in the baptism records. So that exercise hasn’t got me very far!

By the way, Jim, I’ve been describing the house with the trees around it, beside the bridge between Uggoon and Glendree, as being in plot 8 A, but I see now that it is in plot 8 B. Sorry for causing confusion. Plots 8 A, B & C went to make up the 34 acres in that farm in Uggoon (leased by Andrew McNamara in Griffiths).

Jim, are you really going to get into the Molonys in Tulla? I imagine that if there’s anything more difficult than the McNamaras, it must be the Molonys.

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Jimbo » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:33 am

Hi Sheila,

There indeed appear to be a few Molony's in Tulla parish. But don't worry I'm only interested in Michael Molony of Uggoon who married Mary McNamara, the daughter of Matthew McNamara, granddaughter of Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara.

About the McNamara House being in Plot 8B instead of Plot 8A, I have only just now looked at the Griffith's Valuation map using the askaboutireland.ie website by following the link on the Clare Library website:
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith- ... eID=273792

To be honest, it was very difficult to zoom in and find Uggoon when you aren't familiar with the area or names. I got very lost and ended up finding Lough Graney written about by the poet Brian Merriman, and from there finding Lough Ea mentioned in the "Hills of Sweet Glandree" and then went south to Uggoon. Below is a screenprint of the areas we are discussing (source: askaboutireland.ie website, copyright by google). Sheila, I think you have read several books about the making of these maps. In plot 8B the "2" is a house and the trees you referred to are dots? Were there really that few trees in Uggoon? The thick red line is the border between Uggoon (west) and Glendree (east) which is also a river. But what is the symbol for bridge? I also see Plots 42 (8 acres) and Plot 43 (14 acres) in Glendree which had houses. Plot 60 (not viewable on this map) held by Andrew's son Michael McNamara is very substantial at 70 acres. Andrew McNamara of Uggoon and his descendants appear pretty well off; I'm wondering if his wife was also known as Bridget Sheedy McNamara.

The Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara with their 11 children (when young), we believe lived in Plot 8B but also had land in 8A and 8C, correct? Who was this Plot transferred to? Did it stay in the family?

Thanks again for obtaining the death record for the Andrew McNamara who died in 1869, at the age of 80, informant Bridget McNamara, Uggoon. We are now certain who this is, but is there still a question of his land holdings? Previously, you suggested that the Andrew McNamara who died in 1869 was one of three options or a combination of all three:
1) Andrew who was leasing plot 42 in Glendree in Griffith’s [about 1863 transferred to "Matthew McNamara" and later to Michael Molony]
2) Aw. McNamara Bawn who was leasing plot 43 in Glendree with James Morony [transferred to Michael Molony]
3) Andrew McNamara who was leasing plot 8 in Uggoon (34 acres). [not sure who this was transferred to?]

After sorting out the Andrew McNamara families of Uggoon versus Glandree, is there any doubt that the Andrew McNamara & Bridget McNamara family leased all three Plots (8, 42, 43 jointly)? Please confirm your notes/revisions on this, but both Plot 42 and 43 would eventually be transferred to Matthew McNamara's son-in-law, Michael Molony, so surely the plots were originally leased by Andrew McNamara who died in 1869. Plot 43 states "Andrew McNamara Bawn" so this couldn't be a Sheedy McNamara - who else could it be? Now just looking at the map Plot 43 is adjacent to Plot 49 held by the Sheedy McNamara's - is this why there is some doubt on this lease? But since it went to Michael Molony, it seems reasonable that the initial lease was the Andrew McNamara who died in 1869?

With regards to Plot 43, I was considering whether Andrew McNamara jointly leased with "James Molony" and not "James Morony". But after finding the Griffith's map I remembered that Plot 43 was in Glandree and only close to the border with Uggoon. In Uggoon there is a "James Molony" but no "James Morony", while there are indeed several "James Morony" families in Glandree. James Molony is the father of Michael Molony who would end up with Plot 43, so it made sense to me that it had been his father that jointly shared Plot 43 with Andrew McNamara.

James Molony and Eleanor/Jane Nugent of Uggoon (no marriage record in Tulla) had the following children:
1) 7 December 1834 James Molony, sponsor Pat Verlin (widower, age 60, House 8 Upper Uggoon, 1901 Census)
2) 3 November 1838 Honor Molony, sponsor Honor Molony
3) 16 March 1841 Pat Molony, sponsors Pat and Honor Molony
4) 1843: Missing January through March,
5) 3 July 1845 Michael Molony, sponsors William Fahy, Joan Mack. Michael Molony married Mary McNamara, daughter of Matthew McNamara of Uggoon (House 47 Glendree in 1901)

The baptism of James Molony (wife of Ellen Nugent) of Uggoon would not be in the Tulla baptism register that starts in 1819, but I believe his youngest sister just made the cut. James Molony and Mary Hasset of Uggoon were the parents of the below children (I think) and probably many more. There is a James Molony listed in Uggoon in the 1827 Tithe Applotments.

1) Margaret Molony: baptized 9 March 1819 in Uggoon, sponsors Dan McNamara and Mary Dulhunty
2) James Molony: first child born in 1834 in Uggoon, a son named James; born around 1814?, married Ellen Nugent (see above)
3) Mary Molony: of Uggoon married Michael Sheedy McNamara of Kiluran in 1829, second born son named James, her brother James Molony of Uggoon was witness at wedding; Mary born around 1809?
4) Honor Molony: appeared as sponsor for two children of James Molony; Honora Molony of Uggoon married John Morony of Glandree in February 1839, witnesses Mary Molony of Uggoon and Daniel Morony of Glandree; born prior to 1819?

Thanks for your help! And well spotted with "Derryole" being "Derryulk" and not my suggestion of "Derryhala".
Attachments
Uggoon & Tulla Griffith Valuation Map  (source is askaboutireland & google).jpg
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Sduddy
Posts: 1826
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Re: Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara, of Glandree,

Post by Sduddy » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:51 am

Hi Jim

Yes, I think I am more of a map junkie than a genealogy junkie, but haven’t read as much as I would like to. I am finding it hard to get books on the making of those maps. J.H. Andrew’s A Paper Landscape is the one usually referred to, but he dwells a great deal on the technical side of mapmaking, and not on the effects on the tenants of the new “rationalization” of their farms, which Grifftih’s Valuation brought about, and which is what I am interested in.

Now, to answer your questions as best I can:
Firstly I understand perfectly your difficulty finding Uggoon. At this stage, I know the shape of Glendree so well, I can zoom in straightaway. What looks like the figure 2 is actually the letter a (in lower-case). In Griffiths these lower-case letters refer to the houses – sometimes there are three in one plot (farm). I imagine the trees are marked in because they are trees planted by the farmer to enhance his dwelling-place - not trees occurring naturally – of which there were plenty in Uggoon, I’m quite sure. There is no symbol for the bridge in that map, and the later map (made in the late 19th century) is not available at the moment because the Geohive public viewer site is acting the maggot lately, and not making itself available. But if you look at the Bing satellite view (just up from that link to the askaboutireland map), you will see the bridge. Maybe, in the 19th century, this bridge was just wooden planks. My only reason for drawing your attention to it was so that you could see how easy it was to go from Andrew McNamara’s farm in Uggoon to some McNamara plots in Glendree.
I see that you have located plot 60 and you will have noted that it is a bit of a distance away. Take another look towards the north-east of Glendree and you will see plot 47 and plot 31 adjoining each other there. Plot 31 was held by Daniel McEvoy in Grifftihs. This was most likely the father, or brother, of Margaret McEvoy who married Andrew McNamara (son of Andrew Sheedy McNamara and Margaret Clancy). Anyway, this is where Andrew McNamara and Margaret McEvoy lived – a bit of a distance away from Andrew’s brother Patrick (and his wife, Ellen) in plot 48. The 1911 census shows Margret [McEvoy] McNamara, now aged 72, still living in her own house in plot 47, but it is her grandson, Danial McNamara, aged 40, who is head of household now. He also owns plot 31 (see the Rate Book).

Now, you ask about plot 8 A, B & C: when you look at Griffith’s you will see that this is just one plot (farm) – the capital letters refer to the various fragments of that farm. The Rate Book (http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... ee_ded.htm) shows that this is owned by a Matthew McNamara. Look at the Rate Book “as given” and scroll down to Uggoon Upper and to No. 86, and then across to the second column and you will see 8 A Ba C, and you will see that it is owned by Matthew McNamara. Now, although the “a” in lower-case after the Capital B denotes a dwelling house, the word “Land” on its own in the third column suggests to me that Matthew was not living there. I think he is the same Matthew who was living with his mother Ann in Glendree, but I might be wrong there. You might have some thoughts about all that.

Now about James Moroney who is sharing plot 43 with Andrew McNamara Bawn in Griffith’s: In 1878, Maria McNamara, Glendree, daughter of Michael McNamara, Farmer, married a James Morony, Glendree, son of Thomas Moroney in Drumcharley chapel; witnesses: Thomas Morony, Mary McNamara. This couple are in House 33 in 1901. However, this James Moroney is not the father of Daniel Moroney who is the owner of plot 43 in 1921 (look at the Rate Book again – this time at Glendree). I don’t want to try to untangle the various Moroneys. There may be a connection between Daniel Moroney and Michael Molony in plot 42. I don’t want to get into the Molonys either!

About Derryole: That’s probably “Derryolc”, which is closer to the original Irish name than Derryulk (there is no letter “k” in Irish).

Jim, I think those are the answers to your questions.

Now, after all this time, we are still left with 5 Thomas McNamara chief-candidates for the position of Thomas McNamara the Civil War veteran, and I would consider it an achievement to eliminate even one of them.

With that in mind, I have been looking at the marriage of a Mary McNamara to Richard Nash in 1865. This couple is in Glendree in 1901. Mary is aged 62, so born about 1838. Her daughter, Mary Nash, married Michael McNamara in 1895. He is the Michael McNamara who is in House 5 in the 1901 census, aged 48. The civil record of the marriage confirms what we’d already surmised – that Michael is the son of Patrick McNamara (Plot 3). One of the children of Michael McNamara and Mary Nash is living with Mary’s parents (Richard Nash and Mary McNamara) in 1901. He is described as a nephew, but he is a grandson. I am sending away for the civil record of the marriage of Mary McNamara to Richard Nash in order to find out her father’s name. I just want to eliminate her parents as candidates for the position of parents of Mary Madigan (and Thomas the Civil War Soldier). But it may turn out that Mary is not from Glendree – the Tulla marriage register does not give her address.

I am looking with interest, also, at this 1853 marriage in the Tulla marriage register 1846-1862: 06.02.1853: Mary McNamara, Uggune, to John Russell, Uggune; witnesses: Matthew McNamara, Uggune, Judy McNamara, Uggune. These are three of their children:
Bridget b. 1854; sponsor: Bridget McNamara
Thomas b. 1857; sponsors: Laurence McNamara, Catherine McNamara
Sally b. 1859; sponsors: John Mc., Nancy Russell
Who are the parents of this Mary McNamara? I strongly suspect she is a daughter of Andrew McNamara and Bridget McNamara in Uggoon, and that her baptism went unrecorded. If she is, then Johanna (Mary?) Madigan is not a daughter of Andrew and Bridget from Uggoon. And therefore neither is Thomas the Civil War Veteran. But of course we had never counted this family as being his, anyway. So, the list of 5 Thomas McNamaras has not been whittled down in the least by that piece of work!

Sheila

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