McManah (perhaps) and Norton marriage in Clare.

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Mary Round
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Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:20 pm

McManah (perhaps) and Norton marriage in Clare.

Post by Mary Round » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:10 am

I have another ancestor from Clare but I know very little about her.

On her Death Certificate in 1868, Bridget Kelly was 45, so was born c 1823, in Co Clare. Her parents were Timothy McManah, a miller, and Mary Norton.(I am not sure about the spelling of McManah. It could be McNamara.) She had been married for 20 years to Edward Kelly of Borrisokane, Tipperary where the marriage took place. Her husband was the Informant at her death and this is the only time I can find his name in Australian records.

Bridget came on her own to Australia in 1866 sometime after two of her daughters who were born in Borrisokane, Tipperary. One, Maria Catherine(Kitty) was my great-grandmother. She was born in 1845, married in Rockhampton in 1865, had six sons including twins and died of TB in 1874. Only three of her sons survived infancy. The six boys had twelve names between them which you'd think would help but none fit family naming patterns. I am hoping if we find the McManahs and Nortons some of those names will turn up.

Not only did Kitty's mother die in 1868, but her husband died in 1877, leaving three boys orphans.

I have no idea where in Clare the McManahs lived. If it is the correct spelling, is it a common name?

Where do I start looking? Can someone help, please.

Mary Round
Queensland.

Jimbo
Posts: 591
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:43 am

Re: McManah (perhaps) and Norton marriage in Clare.

Post by Jimbo » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:06 am

Hi Mary,

Have a second look at the 1868 death certificate for Bridget Kelly which lists her father as "Timothy McManah". It would be easy to mistake an "h" for an "n" and vice versa in handwriting. McMahon is the most common surname in County Clare. Are you able to post a screen print of the Australian death record? Would be worth getting a second opinion especially from forum members who have lots of experience transcribing old baptism / marriage records.

Finding a baptism record for Bridget McMahon in 1823 might prove difficult. In looking at the Clare baptism transcription register on this forum, most baptisms start in the 1830's or later decades, but there are a few Catholic parishes that you could check out. In addition, Timothy McMahon and Mary Norton could have had other children in later years? I'd also check out County Limerick.

If Timothy McMahon was still living in 1855, he might be included on the Griffith's Valuation. Unfortunately, when researching McMahons there will be quite a few listed. Check out the Clare Library site:

http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... fithm6.htm

The father Timothy McMahon being listed as a "miller" on the 1868 death certificate could be a great clue. I'd recommend getting a copy of the book "The Millers & the Mills of Ireland of about 1850" by William E. Hogg. I believe the book only lists the mill owner and not those working at the mill; so perhaps unlikely that Timothy would be listed? But would still be interesting to own the book given your family history. The author William E. Hogg is the president of "The Society for the Preservation of Ancient and Traditional Irish Mills". Check out their website for more information and contact details:

http://www.millsofireland.org/about-us

Regarding not being able to find Edward Kelly in any Australian records past 1868, have you checked under "Ned Kelly"? Australians love to abbreviate.

Edit 1 correction above: "vice versa" vs. "vice versus" !
Last edited by Jimbo on Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

smcarberry
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Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:31 pm
Location: USA

Re: McManah (perhaps) and Norton marriage in Clare.

Post by smcarberry » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:31 pm

I am hesitant to jump into a discussion with such scattered bits of info, but every little bit helps, I suppose. It's o.k. if you totally find these useless.

I agree with Jimbo that being certain on the surnames is an essential starting point, and I do see a great potential for McMahon being involved rather than McNamara (based on all the handwritten records I have seen with those surnames and similar "h" and "n" switches). Ditto following clues based on a miller operating in Clare in the 1800 to 1840 period.

I have a Trove (newspaper database) finding of an Edward Harden Kelly's death in Melbourne in 1884, with a reference to his being from Borrisokane. His age then being 64, that would make him the right age. If you can tie this one to your family, then Harden would likely be a surname in his mother's family. Looking briefly at Harden in Tipperary (http://www.igp-web.com/tipperary/index.htm) this may have been a Protestant family and fairly well-to-do, which would fit that naming practice. If your Edward married a Catholic woman, then going off to Australia also makes sense (and perhaps any eventual estrangement as well).

You may also want to follow up on a RootsChat discussion on a Timothy McMahon (of an age to be your Bridget's brother) who had children in Quin Parish of Clare (no marriage there) in the 1850s and lived later years in Limerick city, with an apparent relative Patrick who went off to Queensland and married in Rockhampton. See screenshot.

You have not posted here or on Ireland Reaching Out the personal names of your Edward Kelly's children, but any fairly unusual names would be helpful, such as Nicholas or Brian.

Good luck with that,
Sharon Carberry (USA)
Kelly, Brid 1868 dth.jpg
Kelly, Brid 1868 dth.jpg (22.12 KiB) Viewed 9528 times
Kelly 1884 dth.jpg
Kelly 1884 dth.jpg (14.34 KiB) Viewed 9528 times
McMahon b. 1864, mar'd Rockhampton.jpg
McMahon b. 1864, mar'd Rockhampton.jpg (33.75 KiB) Viewed 9528 times

Jimbo
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Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:43 am

Re: McManah (perhaps) and Norton marriage in Clare.

Post by Jimbo » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:13 pm

Hi Mary,

Scattered bits of information often provide the vital clue to solve a mystery! Sharon surely found an important clue in the Trove newspaper database.

You mentioned that Bridget McNamara / McMahon of County Clare married Edward Kelly in Borrisokane, County Tipperary. Traditionally the bride would be married in her home parish. Thus, I'd focus on researching the Borrisokane mill instead of County Clare mills. According to their local history, Borrisokane is one of the chief milling centers of Tipperary. Their old circa 1800 mill was expanded greatly in 1840. Timothy could have moved his family from County Clare to Borrisokane around 1840 to work at the expanded mill and this is why his daughter was married there. And perhaps you can find other children of Timothy married in the Borrisokane parish records?

The death announcement in the Queensland papers of a Edward Kelly of Borrisokane who died in Melbourne on 22 October 1884 is most certainly your ancestor. In the Melbourne Argus newspaper announcement of 25 October 1884 (see below), additional information is provided that Edward Kelly was living in Brisbane and asking their newspapers to copy the announcement. On the Australia Death Index (ancestry), this Edward Harden Kelly was born in 1819 and his father was "DI Harden" and mother was "Catherine Hogan". Do you recognize either surname from your family research?

And here is another scattered bit of information from the Melbourne Age of 22 September 1884:
A wild looking fellow, giving his name as Edward Kelly, was presented on Saturday at the City Court on a charge of carrying firearms without lawful authority. It appeared that the prisoner who is thought to have recently arrived in the colony, went into a pawnbroker's shop, No. 21 Bourke Street West, and alarmed the proprietor by presenting a loaded revolver, at the same time making some incoherent statements which induced the pawnbroker to hastily send for the police. The prisoner did not want to pawn the weapon, but merely to exhibit it as one of superior construction, but from his peculiar manner it was considered dangerous to allow him to have a revolver fully loaded in his possession. His demeanor in court did not prepossess the bench in his favor. He was told that he must be bound over to keep the peace for a month, during which period the revolver would remain in the possession of the police. He could then claim it and have it restored to him.
Edward Kelly is obviously a common name, but the above article does state that he was "recently arrived in the colony". Also, Edward Harden Kelly of Queensland died on 22 October 1884. This is one month after the arrest of an Edward Kelly for illegal gun possession and the exact date when the revolver would be returned to him.

Would be interesting to see who was the informant on Edward Kelly's death record as this person had the knowledge of who Edward's parents were including mother's maiden name. There is a very good chance that Edward Kelly was visiting either a brother or sister living in Melbourne.

Also with this new Melbourne connection, I'd have another look at the shipping records of ships from Liverpool to Melbourne to see if you can find Edward and his two daughters. If there are other Kellys included with the family on the ship register they could be relatives who remained in Melbourne.

Good luck in your search.
Attachments
Edward Harden Kelly 1884 Melbourne paper.jpg
Edward Harden Kelly 1884 Melbourne paper.jpg (47.78 KiB) Viewed 9392 times

Jimbo
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Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:43 am

Re: McManah (perhaps) and Norton marriage in Clare.

Post by Jimbo » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:27 am

Hi Mary,

It appears most likely that County Clare native Bridget Kelly who died in Queensland in 1868 is not the mother of your great grandmother Catherine Kelly, but her stepmother based upon the following evidence:

1) On the 1868 death certificate completed by her husband Edward Kelly, Bridget Kelly's parents were listed as Timothy "McManah" and Mary Norton. I read the post you wrote on Ireland Reaching Out that Sharon had mentioned. You have found the baptism records in Borrisokane for both Elizabeth Kelly and her sister Catherine Kelly and the parents were Edward Kelly and Bridget McNamara. While it would be easy to confuse McManah with McMahon, the surname McNamara is clearly a distinct surname.

2) The 1868 death certificate states that Edward Kelly and Bridget McMahon were married in Borrisokane twenty years ago and had three children together (one deceased). So they were married about 1848. The baptism records for Elizabeth Kelly and Catherine Kelly are 18 September 1842 and 14 July 1845, respectively. Neither child was born out of wedlock.

And now for the Perry Mason moment...

3) Edward Kelly (age 44) arrived in Australia in March 1862 at Melbourne from Liverpool on the ship Marco Polo. See Exhibit A below. He was travelling not only with an Eliza (age 21) and a Catherine (age 16) who would be the exact age of the two girls born in Borrisokane, but also with two younger girls: Mary (age 9) and Jane (age 6). Clearly when Edward Kelly reported on the death certificate that he and Bridget McMahon had two surviving children (one deceased), he would be referring to the two younger children Mary and Jane.

The Northern Argus newspaper in Rockhampton did report in the death announcement in 1868 that Mrs. Bridget Kelly was the mother of "Mrs Kennedy of the Albion Hotel and Mrs Page of the Queensland Hotel." But the newspaper would probably not know that Bridget Kelly was actually their stepmother. And since Bridget would have raised both women possibly since they were just wee toddlers, she would have been the only mother either child knew. Mrs Kennedy and Mrs Page were most likely mentioned in the death announcement since they would have been well known in Rockhampton as both were running hotels. While the two younger daughters Mary and Jane would have only been 13 and 10 years old when their mother died.

Finding information on Bridget McNamara in County Tipperary (with no knowledge of parents) will be even more challenging than researching Bridget McMahon in County Clare! Hopefully, you can find the two younger Kelly children (as well as the one deceased Kelly child) in not only the Borrisokane baptism records but also in the Australian records. Perhaps the reason Edward Kelly was visiting Melbourne in 1884 when he died was to visit one of his daughters living there?

You mentioned on Ireland Reaching Out that your great grandmother Catherine Kelly was known for her beautiful singing voice. Although she didn't inherit any County Clare genes from Bridget McMahon, perhaps it was Bridget that passed this singing ability down to your great grandmother.
Attachments
Exhibit A.  Arrival of Edward Kelly on Marco Polo in 1862 with 4 Daughters.jpg
Exhibit A. Arrival of Edward Kelly on Marco Polo in 1862 with 4 Daughters.jpg (120.07 KiB) Viewed 9072 times

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