Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

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VLPerth
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:05 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by VLPerth » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:54 am

Wow! That looks to be 100% our John, doesn't it! Fabulous. It would also go some way, perhaps, to explaining mum's Co. Limerick DNA matches (although I'm still seeing stronger/more often matches with people of Co. Cork origins). Fabulous.

Now we just have to convince mum's two remaining siblings to take the test (they're pretty much uninterested in actual family history research although more than happy to hear the stories once we, with the help of wonderful people such as yourselves, piece it all together, but might be able to be induced to spit into a vial...)

Shiela, do you have a deerstalker and pipe hiding somewhere in your wardrobe??

Viv.

VLPerth
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:05 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by VLPerth » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:05 am

Hi Deidre,

I have a vague memory of the Limerick Connell cooper connection (try saying that six times fast) coming up in mum's pile of paperwork regarding the Connells and will talk to her about it asap. As Sheila has suggested, that and the fact that son John (Mary and Bridget's brother) was married and working as a cooper in Limerick definitely suggests a reason why the suspicious Elizabeth (Lizzie?) O'Connell who turned up in Sydney said she was from there, not Clare.

The plot is becoming decidedly thick!

Viv.

PS Forgive me, I suspect I'm rather dehydrated as it's 38 degrees Celsius here today and we have no air conditioning, but I do think The Limerick Connell Cooper Connection would make a rather fine band name.

deirdre carroll
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:43 pm

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by deirdre carroll » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:02 pm

Hi Viv,

That's looking good! Once I saw cooper as the the trade, I thought of all the coopers I had come across when researching Carrolls! Quite likely they knew one another!

Deirdre

Sduddy
Posts: 1159
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by Sduddy » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:02 am

Having sown the idea that Stephen Connell might have been a son of John Connell (who was listed as Cooper in Slater’s Directory for Limerick), I feel I must un-sow it before it takes root. I found Stephen’s birth, after all, in 1865, in Palmerstown, and it shows that his father, John, was a soldier, not a cooper. And I realize now that the name Connell is common enough in Limerick for Kitty and John (the witnesses at the wedding of Mary Connell in 1922) to have been simply friends, rather than cousins.
In fact the name is common enough for me to have doubts about saying “an extended Connell family in the cooperage business in Limerick”. We have John Connell in Limerick city in 1901 plus Patrick Connell in Arranagh in Monagay parish, but there may not be any relationship between the two. Somebody with membership of findmypast may be able to give us more from the Electoral Rolls - such as William Connell mentioned by Deirdre.

Sheila

mwoolgen
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:14 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by mwoolgen » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:05 am

Hi Sheila and others

I have also found that Connell/O'Connell is a pretty common name in the Limerick area. I now have found two John Connell coopers in searching civil records for marriages of John and Margaret's surviving daughter Mary. There is a marriage on 19 Sept 1917, at St Joseph's in Limerick City, to a Patrick Cunnane that show's the bride, Mary's, father as John - a cooper - but alive ! The John Connell I found (and referred to in an earlier post) that was my candidate for my great grandmother's and Bridget's brother, died in 1914 and was a described as cooper on the death record.

Not finding out much more, so a trip to the my library is in order to access FMP and Ancestry.

I note that the curate (?) who registered the marriage for the 1917 event above was James Carroll - anybody you know Deirdre ?

Mike.

Sduddy
Posts: 1159
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by Sduddy » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:46 am

Hi Mike

My first thought was Jeepers.
Then I looked at the second John in both censuses* and saw that he was from Co. Limerick. Which is his only distinguishing feature, because, would you believe it, the record of his marriage in 1894, to Bridget Keating (registered in Newcastle, Co. Limerick), shows that his father is Patrick O’Connell, Cooper.
*In 1901, the townland is Foynes Town and the D.E.D. is Shanagolden. But in 1911, the townland is Shanagolden and the D.E.D. is Ballynacragga North.

So the first John, who fessed up in both censuses to being from Co. Clare, is definitely your John. Yes, I see now that he died in 1914.
But this second John Connell, Cooper, makes Patrick Connell (who married Jane Collins) a fraction more likely to have come from Limerick, I think.

Sheila

deirdre carroll
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:43 pm

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by deirdre carroll » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:36 am

Hi Folks,
I would be happy to do some more research on Connell coopers in Limerick on say findmypast.ie but I am heading off early tomorrow to Sydney, Australia for three weeks! I am happy to return to it when back. Limerick and Ennis are so near that possibility of a relationship quite likely? Also there may not have been too many coopers with the same surname living relatively near one another at that time unrelated to one another??

Deirdre

mwoolgen
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:14 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by mwoolgen » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:48 am

Hi Deirdre

Sorry for the delay - just back from a lightening visit to NZ to help celebrate my brother-in-law's 80th.

Thanks for your offer. While I can access FMP at the library, having another pair of (experienced FMP) eyes on the case would be great.

I'm wondering about a scenario where Pat Connell (maybe a Limerick cooper's son) branched out and worked for an Ennis cooperage run by the Collin's. This may be how he and Jane hooked up - as she seems quite likely the daughter of an Ennis cooper.

Enjoy Sydney and Australia ...

Mike.

mwoolgen
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:14 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by mwoolgen » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:39 am

Hi all

Finally made the time to visit my library where I snooped around for some time before coming across an Ancestry family tree that named John and Honora Collins (Cunningham). This John I believe is closely related to my Jane/Jeane. I have been speculating that this John is Jane's elder brother. The Ancestry tree picks up John and Honora in Canada in the 1861 Ontario census. All the children named are recorded as born in Canada but I suspect that John, the eldest, was born in Ireland as recorded in the Ennis Parish records. It looks like Jeane - their first born, didn't live to 1861 or hopefully, had left home being maybe 14 or 15.

The family tree is supported by some digital copies of records which indicate that John was a cooper in Ennis and that in 1871 he remarried having lost Honora somewhere between 1861 and 1871. The second marriage records his father as Thomas Collins and Elizabeth Carter - great! Here is a lead I can follow up now in trying to get my Jane's parents - the father who I had already suspected might be a Thomas. John died in Canada in 1877 - also supported by a digital record of death in the family tree.

There is more work to do on this angle - not the least of which is to see if the owner of the tree is willing to engage in discussion in this side of their heritage.

I have noticed that there is an 80 year old Elizabeth Collins of Ennis who died in 1873 (?) - may be the one ..

The difficult part is confidently connecting my Jane with this story - but with more pieces of this puzzle and my new friend Viv, I can press on with enthusiasm.

Mike.

deirdre carroll
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:43 pm

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by deirdre carroll » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:30 pm

Hello folks again,

I noted a Patrick Connell in Griffith's Valuation at number 50 in The Borheen - not too far from Drumbiggle. Mary Connell is at house 54. In the Petty Sessions records, there is a Michael Connell from Ennis in Limerick prison with his wife Anne in 1865, convicted of stealing oats. He is described as a Carrier.He was born in 1832. In later records both Patrick and Michael Connell are charged with overholding rooms - a common charge at that time. It is not clear of course if any of these Connells are related to your Connells in Drumbiggle.

In later House book records my Great Grandfather Barney Carroll, a coachman from Limerick, is at number 65 in The Borheen. His son Michael, my Grandfather, married Mary Connell, described as a Groom's daughter in 1903 but she died not long after. He later married by Grandmother Delia O'Connor in 1915.

Slater's Directory of 1846 shows Francis Kean as a Coachbuilder and a number of Collins as Coopers. A Patrick Connell is shown as a boot and shoemaker at Friary Lane.

Regards,

Deirdre C.

mwoolgen
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:14 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by mwoolgen » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:03 am

Hi Deidre and others

While the Connell connection with The Borheen mob is quite possible, I can see from the Ennis Parish baptism register that my Patrick and Jane were probably resident in Drumbiggle in the 1850's, so, while it is always good to have a bit of spice to add to the family history story, I think I'll have to park that snippet for now at least.

Much excitement ensues on the Collins side however ! I have received a copy of the death record for the Elizabeth Collins I referred to in my previous post. Elizabeth lived in Drumbiggle, widow of a cooper and present at her death was David Collins. That is a really good fit with my tentative Collins tree that has John, Mary, David and Jeane/Jane as the children of Thomas and now Elizabeth. John, David and Thomas all being coopers. From the Canadian death record of John, I can guess that Thomas and Elizabeth were married before 1820 - if Elizabeth was the only wife.

As Deidre points out however - there were other Collins coopers lurking about in the area in this period.

I'm now on the lookout for Thomas and Elizabeth marriage record ...

Mike.

Sduddy
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Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by Sduddy » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:46 pm

Hi Mike

Good work. I really did not expect that you would ever find Thomas’ wife and now you have. David Collins’ daughter Elizabeth, who died in infancy, is probably called after her - also Jane Connell’s daughter Lizzie and also Mary Browne’s daughter Eliza.
I doubt you will find a record of the marriage of Thomas Collins and Elizabeth – there are so few parishes that have records going back to 1820. But you may prove me wrong!

Sheila

mwoolgen
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:14 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by mwoolgen » Tue May 01, 2018 3:26 am

Thanks Sheila

It seems like a reasonable outcome - supported a bit more as I have, in my recent explorations, found a Margaret Collins, died in 1879 also aged 80, widow of a cooper and present at death was John Collins. A John Collins, also a cooper, was married to Mary Nash in 1875 and John's father was Michael, a cooper. This is a different John Collins to my speculative Collin's mob, albeit another Ennis cooper. My John Collins is the one who headed west to Canada and led me to the Thomas and Elizabeth connection.

So ... I think there are two John Collins coopers - the parents of the 'Canadian' John being Thomas and Elizabeth and the parents of the Ennis John probably being Michael and Margaret.

This fits with an 1856 directory record that has 3 Collin's coopers in Ennis, Thomas, Michael and James. Where did James go - more work ...

I haven't found a suitable death record for Michael - looked all around - but none before Margaret's death in 1879 that have an occupation of cooper.

Anyway - this may mean something to any followers looking at the Collins of Ennis.

Also, apologies Deirdre for leaving the 'r' out (twice !) in my last post ... :-)

Mike.

VLPerth
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:05 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by VLPerth » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:09 am

Hi Mike and other invaluable contributors,

Just a quick note to let you know I'm still on hold with family research unfortunately - health, family and university have conspired to produce a perfect storm this past six months!

I have a bit of possible news: I was contacted today by a Daniel Collins whose Collins's were at one stage in Abbeyfeale, Limerick and with whom Ancestry strongly speculates I have an ancestor in common - somewhere between a great-great-great- and a great-great-great-great-great-grand parent (so a fair while back and with lots of grey area.) I had a feeling I had noticed Abbeyfeale Collins and Connells living in close proximity at some stage when I was wandering the internet, but nothing was the least bit concrete so I didn't make a definite note. Does the place ring any bells, Mike?

As I've said, both mum and I are getting many more connections with people from Counties Cork and Limerick than Clare, which has made me wonder about the origins of our couple.

I'll keep you posted if anything else interesting comes up. We're going to try and get my mum's older brother tested soon, and since he will have inherited a different batch of DNA that may shed a bit of light... or muddy the waters further :D

Best wishes,

Viv Langham.

VLPerth
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:05 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by VLPerth » Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:42 pm

Hi Mike,

It's horribly late, but I suddenly had a brainwave which confirms your theory about a connection with the Canadian John Collins!

I have been peeping at the family trees of people who match both your brother's DNA and that of my Uncle Don, and have found a good number of them are descended from John Collins, cooper, son of Thomas Collins and Elizabeth, born c. 1819 in Ennis, died Canada. Given the strength of the DNA matches and the relative closeness of the connection (4th-6th cousin estimated), I'd strongly suspect John was a brother of Jane!

I'd better get some rest - family history leads to too many late nights (or early mornings in this case) but will email you the details in coming days.

Best wishes,

Viv Langham.

Edited to add:

Rather than going to bed as I should be, I've been reading back through the thread and notice I snuck in a red herring regarding Collins and Connells showing up in DNA matches from County Limerick. It turns out our strong Limerick connection is through the Larkin family, who intermarried with people named Collins and Connell, but none of our confirmed Larkin relatives match any of our Ennis Collins/Connell family, so it would seem they are in no way connected with Pat and Jane and families.

Mum's previously mystery maternal grandfather was a Patrick Larkin, born in Limerick. I think it's his grandmother who was an Ellen Connell, and then other descendants of the same Larkin mob married Collinses, hence the confusion.

I'm still a little bamboozled by the relative dearth of matches to people of County Clare origins, but that's the way genetics goes I suppose! I haven't checked Uncle Don's DNA against the various county groups on Facebook, so it may turn out that he got a bit more of the Ennis DNA than mum. I'll try and remember to do that and update.

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