Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

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VLPerth
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Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:05 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by VLPerth » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:43 pm

Hullo, this is the Bridget/Delia ancestor! I found your thread on Sunday and have been sitting on my hands ever since, waiting for my application to post to these forums to be approved.

My name's Viv Langham and my mum Olive, née Butcher, is Delia O'Connell's grand-daughter through her father. I am the owner of the original tree on Ancestry from which others have copied (I've invited a lot of relatives to be guests on the tree), and it seems I was at the same point, until Sunday, that you were at when first posting on this forum: knowing we went back to Pat and Jane/Jeane, having the details of their marriage and the baptism of their other children (mum and dad visited Ennis and received copies of all register entries) and of Bridget/Delia's life/ancestors after leaving Ireland, but with no certain knowledge of the fate of any of her siblings, or of Pat and Jane/Jeane's origins.

It's been fascinating reading this thread, and exciting to find out that Mary also turned up in Australia and had such an interesting life (I've been researching her life in Quorn etc since Sunday, and tracing the trees of her children), but also very frustrating not to be able to say hullo till today.... and right now I'm rushing out the door and can't write much more!

My tree on Ancestry is the one for user name celloperth_ancestry (Langham family tree), if you care to do a search for me. There are two Langham family trees, the other being a copy of my own that I set up for mum so she could link it to her recently-received Ancestry DNA results. If you are able to make a free account, I'm very happy to invite you as a guest to the tree, so that you can see living people and be notified whenever I add info (warning, it's a BIG tree as it covers both my maternal and paternal lines, and I've wandered down some in-law lines a fair way as I also enjoy solving puzzles - and hope that my research is of use to other relatives.)

By the way, mum's DNA results have thrown up some interesting suggestions as to Pat and possibly Jane/Jeane's origins, but I'll have to let you know about that tomorrow.

It's a pleasure to meet such a close Connell/Collins cousin, even if only virtually, and I look forward to chatting more about our mutual family history.

Best wishes,

Viv.

mwoolgen
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:14 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by mwoolgen » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:04 am

Hi Viv

I figure that we have a few things to talk about - compare our journeys and see what information we have that may - combined/compared - allow us to navigate some of those currently hidden pathways to the past.

My focus has been to discover who my ancestors are and to understand something of the lives they led. I haven't tried to capture the current generations - although I do of course know the most closely related.

I was surprised to find that Mary had a sibling in Australia. There hasn't been any evidence or family stories of such an occurrence. I would have imagined that some correspondence would have occurred that led to the discovery of each other's existence. Maybe because Jane (I call her that) their mother was no longer on the scene the family communication fell away.

You will have noticed that I'm following the theme of the Collins being coopers in Ennis and Jane being a part of this family. I have found a Jane Collins born to James or John Collins and Norrie (Corbet) in 31/3/1833 in the Tulla Catholic marriage register - but that doesn't exactly fit with my theory that her father was Thomas born about 1795 and died 1869. I've been assuming that a number of her children's sponsors have been siblings and that's how I ended up with Thomas - who can be sure ?

Patrick remains elusive ... I haven't familiarised myself with the emigration records sufficiently to be able to do a thorough search of that angle. The Irish civil records don't seem to have a suitable Patrick Connell dying in Clare - and there are too many others to go down that pathway yet.

Looking forward to hearing a bit more about your progress and helping each other ...

Mike.

VLPerth
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:05 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by VLPerth » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:54 pm

Hi Mike,

We were also surprised to learn of Mary's life in Australia. As far as mum knows, Bridget didn't speak of having immediate family in Australia. My grandfather, her youngest child John Henry (known as Jack) Butcher, passed away in the 60s when mum was only newly married herself, long before she turned her attention to researching her origins, and so there has been little to no opportunity of talking to anyone that may know more. It seems very strange that both of them were here and apparently not in contact, but perhaps people from Ireland/Britain simply didn't have a concept of how large Australia is. We've often wondered at people disembarking in Cairns when their closest relatives were down in Sydney or Victoria - did they think everything would be just a day or two's travel away?

I've had a good bit of time since the weekend to read through this thread and follow your journey of discovery. The Thomas Collins theory does look very promising; it's such a pity there aren't solid records that make resolving such questions easier, e.g. the British 19th century census records. It's also been very interesting to trace your detective work in tracking down Jane's siblings. Extremely impressive. I wish I'd posted on this forum myself, as I've made a number of threads over the past ten years or so looking for hints about Pat and Jane without finding out anything that we didn't already know from the parish records.

Sadly, as I said, we have nothing more on Pat and Jane than you did when you started this thread, in concrete terms at least, but I can tell you that mum's DNA matches in Ireland are turning out to be largely from County Cork. There are a number of people of an equivalent relation to her in terms of amount of shared DNA as 2nd to 4th cousins on whose trees we have found Collins and Connells individuals born and living in Co. Cork. Unfortunately, none of her matches have a Patrick Connell or a Jane/Jeane Collins among their known ancestors/relatives, but there's a very good probability that the connection is there - tracking it down is the problem!

This has given us a bit of a surprise, as we had been focussing on County Clare, and on Ennis in particular, but it has also suggested a new direction to explore that may bear fruit. We've just started trawling through the distant cousins the DNA process has suggested, but I am planning to compile all information I come across on those trees regarding Collins and Connell individuals. With luck, that may help us all find a way of joining up the dots between one or more of them and our ancestors. I'll make sure and share that list with you as soon as I can, although family, work and study commitments have just kicked in with a vengeance so that may not be as soon as I'd like.

Let me know if you would like a copy of the documents we have related to Bridget in Australia (namely marriage and death certificates) and we'll figure out how to get that to you.

All the best,

Viv.

PS: Mum has been keeping copies of all possible clues regarding Pat and Jane. When I am next at her place, I'll see if we can't get that information together. I'm sure I've heard of that Tulla baptism, but as you say it doesn't match with the Thomas theory and could well be a red herring. You have most likely come across all the information we have, but you never know.

Jimbo
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:43 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by Jimbo » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:48 pm

Mike & Viv,

The 1st of March is the beginning of autumn in Australia, yet there is still plenty of low hanging fruit on the O'Connell family tree.

Christmas 1883. When Elizabeth O'Connell arrived in Sydney on the Pericles there were a total of three ships arriving from England carrying over 1,100 immigrants: the Pericles and Sydenham out of London, and the North out of Plymouth.

On the Ship North is an 18 year old immigrant from County Clare named "Denis O'Connell" who I am willing to bet is actually "David O'Connell" the brother to your sisters Mary and Bridget. Have a look at the ship "registers" for both Elizabeth O'Connell and Denis O'Connell below. These don't appear to be the original ship transcripts which would be signed by the captain of the ship with details of departure & arrival etc. They are just a bit too organized with a neat handwriting that even appears to be written by the same hand despite being for two separate ships. The original ship manifests I reckon were difficult to read, and the NSW colony wanted an organized listing by families / single men / single women all in alphabetical order.

http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook ... .jpg&No=18
http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook ... .jpg&No=12

Since the ship records we are viewing are most likely transcripts copied from the original, it would be safe to assume that mistakes were made especially between similar names such as "David" and "Denis". Both have 5 letters sharing two of the same letters. And especially "v" and "n" would be very easy to confuse in sloppy handwriting. Sheila and Murf, in your experience transcribing the Clare baptism records has David versus Denis given you any challenges? This also makes me wonder if Elizabeth O'Connell who is born in County Clare on the Mormon index; but County Limerick in the NSW register is also due to a transcription error.

Supporting my theory is that "Denis O'Connell" born in Ireland about 1865 simply disappears from the Australian records. But "David O'Connell" born in Ireland about 1865 (and I assume on the Ship North in 1883) makes his way north to Port Macquarie and in 1885 marries a nice Australian girl by the name of Caroline Platt. They have 8 children together in Port Macquarie; their first born son David John unfortunately died in 1893. David's wife is not a Catholic and they don't follow Irish naming traditions. Although one daughter is named Alma Jane.

There are about 14 or so family trees on ancestry created by the descendants of David O'Connell. None of them have any background knowledge of David other than he was born in Ireland about 1865, not even that he is from County Clare. No Australian shipping record exists for a David O'Connell arriving in any year prior to his 1885 marriage in Port Macquarie. I am sure your cousins would be delighted to learn of your discoveries and might now be encouraged to visit Ennis. According to Mrs. David O'Connell's obituary one of the daughters married a Turnbull. Who knows? perhaps even the Australian Prime Minister might be visiting County Clare??

One O'Connell family tree has assigned a photo to David O'Connell. But the photo was taken in 1948 after David's death in 1939 so appears to be a grandson also named David O'Connell. Viv, he would be a second cousin to your mum. It is not DNA, but perhaps your mum can see a resemblance to any of her brothers or cousins? A quintessential Australian family tree, this David O'Connell is only wearing his budgy smugglers (1940's style) so your mum can have a good look. Mike & Viv, as far as height are your relatives a bit on the short side?
Attachments
Caroline Platt O'Connell obituary SMH 11 August 1925 (trove).jpg
Caroline Platt O'Connell obituary SMH 11 August 1925 (trove).jpg (101.59 KiB) Viewed 18411 times
David O'Connell obituary SMH 26 Mary 1939 (trove).jpg
David O'Connell obituary SMH 26 Mary 1939 (trove).jpg (89.67 KiB) Viewed 18411 times

mwoolgen
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:14 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by mwoolgen » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:33 am

Hi Jimbo

Thanks for your continued interest and efforts - having been the catalyst for Viv and I connecting on the forum in the first instance. Your suggestions regarding the O'Connell's of NSW certainly bear some more follow-up. I have actually been trying to nut out the Collins families back in Clare and it is easy to forget your earlier post on this and that there may still be 'low hanging fruit' just next door.

Viv and I are currently doing some background comparing of what we know, suspect, hope etc, to align our thinking and to focus our efforts in future. Two researchers in this area will make the task much more interesting and hopefully fruitful.

We'll keep the forum updated with progress ... and with some questions no doubt ...

Cheers,

Mike

VLPerth
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:05 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by VLPerth » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:50 am

Hullo Jimbo,

At least the 1940s Budgie Smugglers were more attractive than the present variety, so I might be able to show that photo to mum (I'll take a peek on Ancestry a bit later today - it's going to be too hot here in Perth today and tomorrow for us to do much other than family history I reckon) without her having a heart attack. The Turnbull connection may be the last straw, though!

I'll also see if I can track down the death register for that David O'Connell and see if any parents were listed. Although the NSW forms are supposed to provide that info, we've found to our disappointment that often those left alive simply didn't know - or didn't know how to fill out a form correctly - so the information is missing.

Mum wants to know if you're "a banana bender", as she recognises the sense of humour! (Mum was born up in north Queensland but her branch moved down to Sydney before her teenage years and she then moved here to Perth with my dad in the 60s.)

Viv.

Edited to add: As I feared, the death record only gives his age and residence (Balmain).

Sduddy
Posts: 1159
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by Sduddy » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:14 am

Yes, very often it is difficult to decide whether D + scribble is “Denis” or “David”.

But last evening I did a bit a work which I should have done ages ago, and it turns out that it’s almost certain that David stayed in Ireland. I looked in the 1901 census for David Connell and used the Advance Search option to enter Clare as the county of birth. I found a David Connell aged 34, Cattle Drover, from Co. Clare, living in house 29.2 in George’s Street, Durrow D.E.D., which is in Queen’s County (now Co. Laois). So I looked at the 1911 census for a David Connell born in Clare, in the hopes that he had married and that I could find his father’s name in the marriage record. But I found that he was still single. He was now a servant, aged 45, in the household of Michael Nolan, a farmer in Sheriff hill, Co. Kildare.
I looked then to see if there were other David Connells born between 1864 – 1866, and found only 13 in all of Ireland. These included a David Connell born in 1865 in Ballymacdonnell whose birth was registered in Kilkishen in the Tulla Union. So I checked irishgenealogy for the death of a David Connell between 1865 and 1901 and before long found that David from Ballymacdonnell had died in 1866 aged 1. So I've decided that it is most likely that David, the cattle drover, is the son of Patrick and Jane.

The death of a David Connell aged 76 was registered in Athy (Co. Kildare) in 1945. If you want to see an instance of where “David” could be “Denis”, take a look at the image of the record in irishgenealogy. His address is given Narraghmore – a parish and also a village in Co. Kildare.

Sheila

Sduddy
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Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by Sduddy » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:09 am

Now I am on a roll. I have found John Connell, from Co. Clare, in the 1901 census, aged 40, a Cooper, living in house 8.2 in Hunts Lane, in Limerick City (D.E.D.: Shannon Ward). He is married so I looked at the 1911 census to see how long he was married and found him living in Ryan’s Lane, aged 48, and years of marriage given as 20. Then I looked for a record of his marriage and found that he married Margaret (mistranscribed as Mary) Shannon, on Oct. 06, 1890, in St. Michael’s Church, Limerick. His address is Gorman’s Lane, Boherbuoy, and his father is Patrick Connell, Cooper. The witnesses are Thomas Connell (most likely his brother) and Mary Mangan. Margaret’s father is Joseph Shannon, deceased. I took from this that Patrick Connell was still alive, so I looked for the death of a Patrick Connell between 1890 – 1901, but failed to find it. So now I've turned my attention to Thomas Connell born 1869, who was best man at the wedding in 1890, and will report back later on.

Sheila

Sduddy
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Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by Sduddy » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:46 pm

No luck with Thomas Connell. Patrick died in infancy. So I moved on to Michael born 1873. But found nothing that fits.

Sheila

Sduddy
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Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by Sduddy » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:36 pm

John Connell and Margaret Shannon had two daughters in 1901, Mary and Margaret, but only Mary was still living in 1911, aged 18. She was married in St, Joseph’s Church, Limerick, on Aug. 26, 1922, to Edward Hannis (Harris?), Labourer, whose address was 1 Paradise Terr., Chipping, Norton, Oxon, England. Her address is 4 Myles Street. Her father is John O’Connell, Cooper, deceased. The witnesses are John O’Connell, 4 Pump Place, Davis St., and Kitty O’Connell, 4 Pump Place, Queen St.
I think these two O’Connells are cousins of Mary. But how can we find out who their father is? All I can say is that witnesses at marriages were usually young people and that they are both probably under 30 (in 1922).

Sheila

Sduddy
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Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by Sduddy » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:02 pm

Well, I found that Catherine O’Connell (Kitty the bridesmaid), of 4 Davis Rd., married Thomas Collopy in St. Joseph’s Church, Limerick, in 1927, and the record shows that her father was Stephen O’Connell, Porter. One of the witnesses is John O’Connell, 2 Little Barrington St., Limerick (most likely her brother). And then I found that John O’Connell of Davis St., had already married Christina McMahon of 2 Little Barrington St., in 1924, and his father is Stephen O’Connell, of course.
The 1901 census shows Stephen and his wife, Mary Dwyer, and their children, Catherine and John, living in Queen St. Back, Limerick. I found the record of Stephen O’Connell’s marriage in Limerick in 1894 and this gives Palmerstown, which is in Co. Dublin, as far as I know, as the address for both Stephen and Mary. Stephen’s father is John Connell. So Stephen is not a brother of John Connell and Stephen's children are not first cousins of John's daughter, Mary (as I had expected).
But they might be second cousins: I see a John O’Connell listed in Slater’s Directory for Limerick city (1847) as a Cooper in Henry Street. Might Patrick, who came to Ennis and married Jane Collins, be this John’s brother? And might Stephen be a son of this John? I doubt if we can ascertain any of that. Stephen gives his age as 36 in 1901, which would mean that he was born about 1864. I checked to see if there was a record of his birth, but there wasn’t. That would have been helpful.
Anyway, that’s it for today!

Sheila

Jimbo
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Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by Jimbo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:17 pm

Wow! Excellent work Sheila! The Australians will be pleased. Perhaps none more so than Viv's mom as this eliminates the Turnbull connection. Pity the David O'Connell, cattle drover, didn't move to Australia as there would have been plenty of opportunities for him there.

The Thomas O'Connell who goes missing after the 1890 marriage of his brother John, also went by the initials "H.T." as reported on the 1877 application by his sister to immigrate to Australia. Henry? Hank? can't think of any other names at the moment.

With the new County Limerick connection, there is a 65 year old Patrick Connell, master cooper, in the 1901 census. Perhaps a cousin somehow connected or not?

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/r ... 001010656/

deirdre carroll
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Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by deirdre carroll » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:27 pm

Hello Folks,

Have you considered possible connections with Connells in Limerick City, not far from Ennis? There were coopers there with the name Connell. My Great Grandfather Bernard Carroll was born in Limerick in 1831 and came to live in Ennis, working as the coachman on the mail coach. From research I have done it is possible his father was a cooper, so I have been following people in Limerick working as coopers! A James Collins, cooper attended a Fenian parade in 1867 (see Limericklife.com). A John O'Connell, also a cooper, appears in 1846 Slater's Directory living at Henry Street. In July 1817 the Limerick Chronicle records a William Connell, cooper, among those polling in an election. It may be worth pursuing the Limerick connection?

Deirdre Carroll

mwoolgen
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:14 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by mwoolgen » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:29 am

Hi all

Thanks for the responses - nice surprise when I looked up the forum this morning.

Great idea to look at the Limerick coopers Deirdre - thanks. The cooperage line of investigation has been handy - a bit more specific than farmer or labourer.

Thanks also Sheila for tracking down John and Margaret. I had them in my 'possibles' - but hadn't checked back to the marriage event ... or it wasn't online when I did. I couldn't find a 1911 census record for John and Margaret - but did find a death for John in 1914 aged 55. Couldn't find Margaret's death. Still some more to do on this front and to understand the other Connell connections you have uncovered.

I also had David 'the drover' marked as a possible sibling for my Mary and Viv's Bridget - he's firming up now that you also independently lean towards the idea Sheila.

I've also reviewed Thomas and Michael today and haven't found anything that works.

Plenty more to follow up though ...

Mike.
PS Don't forget to Save your Drafts when composing a long post - I did ... Doh !

Sduddy
Posts: 1159
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by Sduddy » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:16 am

Yes, Mike, more images of the civil records have come online since page 1 of this thread. For instance, the marriage of John Collins in 1875 (look back to an earlier posting by me – John Collins, Cooper, was living in Ennis in 1901 and 1911) to Mary Nash is viewable now and shows that his father was Michael Collins, Cooper. That Michael was probably one of the Trio of Collins coopers mentioned in Slater’s Directory as having a cooperage in Armstrong Lane in Ennis, and probably related to Thomas Collins (the father of Jane) who had his cooperage in Drumbiggle.

Yes, Deirdre, it seems there was an extended Connell family in the cooperage business in Limerick. I’ve discovered, by the way, that Palmerstown is right in the heart of Limerick city. I don’t think I will try to untangle the Connells in Limerick as it will take forever and maybe someone else has done it already. But I will continue to be interested in the immediate family of Mary Connell who went to Australia and deposited remittances for her siblings.

No, Jimbo, there was no Hank in Ireland, but there was Henry, of course, plus Hugh (and Hyacinth, would you believe, but not in Clare). But neither Henry, nor Hugh, is yielding results. Thomas (or H.T.) was only 21 in 1890, so he might still have emigrated. I looked at familysearch.org, and was dismayed to find that its whole nature has changed, but there was a notice saying that it would be down today for maintenance. I just want them to change it back to the way it was, please.
By the way, going back to your Christmas Day story of Elizabeth heading off Australia – it doesn’t seem so strange now that she might have described herself as being from Limerick - maybe she had been living in her brother’s house there.

There is a great Limerick site for Mount Saint Lawrence cemetery, which might prove useful – I mean the site! http://archives.limerick.ie/index.php/R ... arch/Index

Sheila

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