Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

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mwoolgen
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Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:14 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by mwoolgen » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:17 pm

Hi Sheila and others

Thanks heaps for all the investigation you are doing Sheila. I have found also that Connell/Collins pickings are slim but you have again provided some angles for me. Maybe there are some legs in the US connection.

I will check out John and also young Patrick Connell with regard to death records. I am only assuming at this stage that Patrick is the one recorded in the civil records as dying in 1873.

I have reviewed the immigration records that are available online to me for South Australian immigration https://www.archives.sa.gov.au/content/immigration and am pretty sure that no other Connell's or O'Connell's came out with who I suspect is my Mary Connell. I put her aboard the Lady Jocelyn leaving Plymouth in June 1876 and arriving in SA Oct 1876. Strangely I notice on reviewing the actual ships register that in one part of it her name is crossed out and changed to Cotter. Seems to have occurred at the end of the voyage. Her conduct on board ship - as reported by the surgeon - is also changed from 'very' good to 'very bad' - puzzling ?

In that same website I had previously discovered that a Mary A O'Connell had applied in 1877 for the assisted passage of O'Connell's -Jane, John, Bridget, David, Michael, H.T. (Thomas I'm guessing) and Lizzie. No Patrick's - (father and deceased younger sibling). They all were an appropriate age except Jane (37 years) ... but that may have been to make her more eligible than a 45 year old. Lizzie is an odd one - but matches and Eliza born to Pat Regan and Jane Connell in Ennis in 1860. Not sure if I should read too much into this - but there were no other children to this couple in Ennis nor was there a marriage there. I couldn't find a suitable death for Jane Regan either. Having just described the above assisted immigration application to you, it would suggest that John was still alive in 1876 and possibly 1877 if this application is by my Mary Connell.

The Mary A is a bit strange - and there was a Mary A Connell married to William Connell and daughters Mary A and Sarah who arrived in SA in 1865. Don't think that they are connected - but another loose end.

Local family knowledge suggests that there were no other closely related Connell/O'Connell's here - just my Mary.

I'm banking on the Connell/Collins connection in all this as Collins was my (deceased) mother's middle name, the name adopted by my grandmother (Mary's daughter) during WW2 (as she had married a German) and also reported by my mothers younger sister (who died last year aged 92) as the maiden name of her great grandmother - my Mary.

Lucky that I like puzzles ... and hope that you are not too confused !

Mike.

Sduddy
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Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by Sduddy » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:38 pm

Hi Mike

Thanks for that information. That is definitely Mary who applied for the rest of her family to come to Australia. I suspect that they did go. And I agree that the John who died in 1875 is most likely not your John Connell.

I only half looked at that ships manifest. I should have used the arrow to get to the next page of the record. This shows that his mother, Mrs. Donnellan, Clonroadmore, Ennis, Co. Clare, was “the nearest relative in county whence alien came”, and that he was going to his uncle, Mr. P. Donlan, 2783 Marine Ave., New York City, who had paid for his passage. “Donlan” is another spelling of “Donnellan”. So, unfortunately, we still do not know if there were any of the Collinses in the U.S.

I’m sure Lizzie was one of the family - it’s generally agreed that plenty of baptisms did not get entered in the baptism registers.

Sheila

mwoolgen
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Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by mwoolgen » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:19 am

Thanks to all those who have taken a look at my conversation about the Collins and Connells of Drumcliff.

I've attached an update on a possible tree for the COLLINS side as this is where I've made the most progress (with Sheila's help). It now includes the surnames CUNNINGHAM, HALLORAN, DONNELLAN and BROWNE. ENGLETON has also appeared as an American connection - as discovered by Sheila. My reporting options in Legacy prevent me from including that in the attached tree without introducing too many more names - although COTTRELL's from Co. Cork make an appearance in this report.

In your last reply to this topic Sheila you mentioned looking at ships manifests. Are these records freely available online or accessed through a subscription service ? I might have to spend some time here looking for emigrants to fill some gaps.

Mike.
Attachments
Descendants of Thomas Collins.pdf
(4.26 KiB) Downloaded 532 times

Jimbo
Posts: 411
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Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by Jimbo » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:40 am

Hi Mike,

On the Australia Death Index (on ancestry) if you leave all fields blank except for father as "Patrick O'Connell" and mother as "Jane Collins", there is one result: a Delia Butcher who died in Queensland in 1931.

Attached below is the obituary from the Brisbane Courier (trove newspaper database) which confirms that she was born in Ennis, County Clare and arrived in Australia in 1882 on the Western Monarch.

A descendant has a family tree on ancestry that has researched back to Patrick O'Connell and Jane Collins of Ennis, but you appear to be further along with more accurate information. I'll send this person a link of this webpage so you can hopefully get in contact. Bridget had eight children so you have lots of rellies living in Queensland.
Attachments
Bridget Delia OConnell Butcher (trove Brisbane Courier 1931).jpg
Bridget Delia OConnell Butcher (trove Brisbane Courier 1931).jpg (106.22 KiB) Viewed 27303 times

Sduddy
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Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by Sduddy » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:14 am

Hi Mike

I’m delighted to hear you have made so much progress. I found the ship’s manifest when I went to http://www.familysearch.org and clicked “Search”. I entered First Name (John), Second Name (Donnellan), Birthplace (Ireland), Birth Year Range (1909 – 1910 - I knew his birthyear because I had found him as a baby in the 1911 census of Ireland), Country (United States). Then, under “Type”, I ticked Immigration and Naturalization, and finally “Search”. He comes up straightaway. Then click on the camera symbol at the end of the line and see the original record. Do not make the mistake that I made of just looking at the first page – use the arrow at the top left.

It has taken me a while to discover how I found John's marriage. I didn’t get it by unticking Immigration and ticking Marriage (as you might expect). I found it by leaving out everything except his first name, last name, and his parents’ names. Sometimes less is more!

It’s all free (as yet) on that site. Twentieth-century immigration records give a lot of information, but earlier records give very little. I think the change may have come about with the setting up of Ellis Island in 1892, though I’m not at all sure of this. Luckily the US census records on http://www.familysearch.org are very good, so use those as well.

I have been feeling bad about suggesting in an earlier posting that your expectation of finding early records was a bit too ambitious – after all, who is to say what’s too ambitious?
Also, I said that I suspected that Mary Connell’s brothers and sisters also went to Australia, but should have noted that while Mary Connell wanted the rest of the family to join her there, none of them have turned up in the Australian records. I wonder now if some of her brothers joined the British army. This was a traditional form of employment in Ennis (I discovered this when I, only recently, read Joe Power’s book, ‘Clare and the Great War'). I’m afraid I have no idea how to go about exploring British army records. Somebody might help.

Sheila

mwoolgen
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Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by mwoolgen » Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:18 am

Thanks 'Jimbo' for the lead ...

I've had a quick look at some Qld records and it appears a credible connection. A Bridget Connell was aboard the Western Monarch on an 1882 voyage and is the correct age according to the ships passenger list. I haven't found a marriage yet, but there are records of the birth of most of those children to Joseph Franklin Butcher and Bridget O'Connell. I'll follow up the Ancestry info when I can next get into my local library.

Thanks also Sheila - not set back by your observation that it gets tough to trace Irish ancestors before the 1800's. Two days ago I discovered, and was able to speak to, a 92 year old relative on my paternal grandmother's side. She knew my parents ! From this encounter I hope to fill in some serious gaps in that direction as she is in possession of a detailed family tree that was compiled by her husband. You never know what is just around the corner.

Mike.

mwoolgen
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Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:14 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by mwoolgen » Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:47 am

Update ...

The marriage was there all the time - just wasn't concentrating. 1884.

Mike

Jimbo
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Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by Jimbo » Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:23 pm

A Christmas tale of the holidays!

On Christmas Day in 1883, an Elizabeth O'Connell arrived in Sydney, New South Wales on the ship Pericles. She was born in County Clare and 22 years old (born about 1861). Elizabeth O'Connell is a common name and there could have been several born in County Clare in 1860 / 1861. However, the timing of her journey makes this Elizabeth a perfect candidate to be the daughter of Patrick O'Connell and Jane Collins. With both sisters having already immigrated to Australia and upon her mother's death in November 1882, perhaps Elizabeth became responsible for cooking & cleaning for her father & four brothers? In the Hollywood version of the story, the brothers would not lend their sister a hand. And after only about 6 months, Elizabeth became fed up and decided to join her sisters in Australia. As the middle sister who was very close to both her elder sister Mary in Adelaide and younger sister Bridget in Queensland, Elizabeth struggled to decide which sister to join. So she chose to live in the middle in Sydney.

Mike, perhaps the family tale of Mary being the only sibling in Australia had altered over the generations from being the only sibling in South Australia? At least for the three O'Connell sisters, your family is quintessentially Australian. Perhaps you can find the O'Connell boys arriving in Australia in later years? Best of luck in the New Year tracking down the whereabouts of the O'Connell children.

EDIT 1: deleted attachment of Ancestry index page: see Murf's link to original manifest below
Last edited by Jimbo on Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

murf
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Location: Qld Australia

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by murf » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:15 pm

Note that the ship's manifest at http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook ... .jpg&No=18
gives Limerick rather than Clare as the Native Place and Calling for this Elizabeth O'Connell.

Jimbo
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Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by Jimbo » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:41 am

Thanks Murf. Interesting to look at an original ship manifest for Australia. The listing of names first by families, single men, and then single women is much more organized than your typical New York immigration listing. Too bad we won't know what the asterisk next to Elizabeth O'Connell's name represents.

To save space I deleted the attachment (84 KiB) in my previous post as the information is superfluous. Also, shrunk the attachment size of an old post to save a whopping 1,028 KiB. Other posters should be good to post attachments now. Will have a look at more posts later to save space.

Elizabeth O'Connell wouldn't be the first immigrant to confuse County Clare with County Limerick on their records. Any ideas why this was so common? So still think this Elizabeth could very likely be the daughter of Patrick O'Connell and Jane Collins. I will concede that perhaps Elizabeth chose Sydney as she didn't really like her sisters in Adelaide and Queensland very much!

Mike, in the Trove newspaper database if you search for "Pericles" specific for NSW newspapers and December 1883, there are lots of interesting details on the arrival of the Pericles. Of the 464 total passengers, there were 79 single women and the NSW immigration authorities made a special allowance to work on Christmas Day to permit only the single women to land. The families and single men would disembark on Boxing Day. However, the women voted to stay on board to celebrate Christmas with the families and single men who they had spent the last seventy nine days at sea.

Murf, any chance you could find a Queensland ship manifest for the Roma arriving in Brisbane from London on 9 February 1887? There is a 15 year old Mick O'Connell from County Clare on board who is a perfect candidate to be the youngest son of Patrick O'Connell and Jane Collins.

Mike & Murf, congrats on beating England in the Ashes!

mwoolgen
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Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:14 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by mwoolgen » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:27 am

Season's greetings all and thanks again for your interest Jimbo. I've been off the air over Christmas and not yet followed up your leads ... Give me a little while to follow them up and I'll report back in.

Mike.

murf
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Location: Qld Australia

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by murf » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:57 am

Sorry Jimbo,
As far as I know NSW is the only state providing these ships manifest images online, but I think that Ancestry has a similar thing called a Depositors Journal. I don't know if it covers other Australian states.

mwoolgen
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:14 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by mwoolgen » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:57 am

Hi Jimbo, others and 'Bridget Connell relation' if you are watching ...

As previously mentioned, the fit for Bridget as a sister to my Mary seems promising - pretty good age match (according to Western Monarch passenger list), birth place Innis (Ennis I guess - according to the newspaper article below) and no other Bridget Connells born in the correct period and baptised according to Ennis Parish Register. But I'd like to find some more evidence of the connection as Bridget Connell was a pretty common name in Ireland at that time and the name Delia appears from out of the blue. Perhaps these middle names weren't recorded at baptisms or maybe they were acquired later. Perhaps a keen administrator in Queensland required a middle name from Bridget for marriage or birth of children.

I was wondering if 'Bridget Connell relation' has a death certificate for Delia Butcher or some other evidence that she is the child of Patrick and Jane/Jeane Connell.

For the record, no more luck with Patrick's whereabouts or with Patrick and Jane's parents ...

Cheers,

Mike.

Jimbo
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:43 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by Jimbo » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:43 am

Hi Mike,

Bridget and Delia are used interchangeably in Ireland. When I googled "Bridget Delia same" it took me to this interesting discussion on the Clare Past Forum which explains the Latin roots of why this is so:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1941

When Delia Butcher died in 1931 her parents were given as Patrick O'Connell and Jane Collins on her death certificate. This information is summarized in the Australia Death Index on ancestry that I mentioned. If you write to the Queensland gov't you could probably get a copy of the original death certificate if your cousins in Queensland don't have this already.

Having a second look on ancestry, there are actually about 10 separate family trees created by descendants of Bridget O'Connell. Might be worth getting a one month subscription (possibly free?) as you are unable to contact other ancestry members using a library edition.

Murf, have a little more faith in your Queensland government! After a little digging I discovered that Queensland has done an excellent job with getting their ship registers on-line. Here I found Mick O'Connell born in County Clare arriving in Brisbane on the Roma in 1887 as a remittance passenger (page 6)

http://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/Im ... ispdf=true

Below is a link to the Queensland search portal. I chose "Immigration" and then "Assisted Immigration 1848 - 1912". They also provide a list by surname which is useful.

https://www.qld.gov.au/dsiti/qsa/search ... categories

Mike, I wonder if you could find the eldest son John O'Connell arriving in Queensland?

mwoolgen
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:14 am

Re: Connell / Collins - Drumcliff

Post by mwoolgen » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:06 pm

Hi Jimbo

The things one learns ... Thanks for joining the dots for me as I probably wouldn't have considered the derivation of the name Delia. Interesting CP post to read. Also useful to know that library editions don't allow contact - as I did look in the library a few days back - but failed to hit the Ancestry death reference - looking at Bridget Connells instead of Bridget or Delia Butchers. Elementary - I need to plan my visits better.

Including Mick and possibly other siblings as well, more for me to follow up now and with more focus (as I'm looking at other ancestral lines that are not Irish) now that you have confirmed death certificate info. Pity that South Australian death certificates have never recorded parents of deceased - would make life easier.

Also - for your interest - South Australia does online ship passenger lists.

This is the main site - https://www.archives.sa.gov.au/content/family-history

...and on the left menu there is an 'Indexes and Special Lists' item and a 'Passenger List' item. Look at the former first for indexes to passenger lists. There is a lot of other stuff there too that I haven't explored yet.

Cheers on another rather too hot day down here ...

Mike.

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