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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:10 am 
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Greetings forum members

I have been researching my Irish ancestry for several years now and have arrived at point where things are getting a whole lot more difficult. As I live in Australia, I have been using online records available through the NLI and other government sources - and of course the resources available through the Clare County Library. With a few clues from the relevant members of my family I have been able to establish with reasonable confidence that the attached information describes my gg grandparents and their children.

I am descended from the first child, Mary, who travelled alone to South Australia in 1876. Further searches suggest to me that Patrick the son died very young and that Jane the mother died in 1882 in the Ennis workhouse. I have copies of civil records confirming the births since 1864 and the death of Jane.

A visit in June this year to the Clare Library - Family Studies Centre - allowed me to delve a little into the likely residence locations of the family and thanks to the team there, also guidance in acquiring the civil record copies of births and deaths.

I am hoping that a forum member may also be tracing ancestors that in some way overlap with mine and that through this there may be some mutual advances in our quests.

Several more specific questions also come to mind as I look at the sponsors names in the attached information.

Where the sponsors are Collins, are these likely to be siblings of Jane ?
Where the sponsors surnames are different, is this an indication that they were not married or is it more likely to be a maiden name in the case of the female sponsor ?
Are there catholic records in the Ennis area that pre date those available online through the NLI or Ennis Parish sites ?

Thanks for your interest.

Mike.


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Patrick and Jane Connell.pdf [149.6 KiB]
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:40 am 
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Hi Mike,

To the best of my knowledge there are no other catholic records for Ennis.

My inclination would be to guess that the Collins sponsors are siblings of Jane and I would research them as far as possible in order to see what turns up.
It’s impossible to say whether the priest used their maiden, or married, names for the female sponsors. I looked for David Collins in the 1901 census and see that he living in Drumbiggle, aged 76, and that his wife is Bridget, so Mary Moloney, his co-sponsor at the baptism of David Connell (or O’Connell), was not his wife.

Sheila


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:24 am 
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Thanks for the tips Sheila ... I had been looking too much at Connell's and forgetting to track down the Collin's. It has yielded some nice links.

As well as finding the David Collins 1901 record you mentioned, I have been able to discover through the Ennis Parish records and confirming with the NLI online images, that a Dan Browne and Mary Collins married and I think I have discovered Mary in the 1901 census. I have also found that a John Collins married Honor Cunningham and had at least 2 children, Jean 1848 and John 1849. My Jane (Jeane) Collins appears to have been a sponsor at John's baptism in 1849.

I have also determined that the witnesses at Pat Connell and Jane (Jeane) Collins marriage themselves married soon after and that the husband - Francis Keane - was a cooper. Pat Connell was also recorded as cooper at the birth of some of his children - perhaps his work mates included Francis Keane.

Thanks again for providing me with some momentum on the topic.

Mike.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:12 am 
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Greetings again forum members.

I have put together a DRAFT family tree for 2 generations of what look like my COLLINS, using the information that I have obtained by combining the Ennis Parish records and the NLI Catholic Registers Online. I've used sponsors and witnesses to connect these COLLINS and assumed that they were all siblings. This may be a bit simplistic but is a starting point. It is attached for those who may be interested.

Among the next challenges are ...

1 Who are the parents - Mr and Mrs COLLINS
2 Where did Patrick CONNELL come from as, amongst all of the witnesses and sponsors, there were no CONNELL's mentioned. I guess that there are at least two possibilities - that Patrick came from another parish or perhaps his relatives had emigrated to America. I choose America over Australia as I have no evidence of any connection with Connells or O'Connell's over here.

I look forward to any comments or advice.

Mike.


Attachments:
Descendants of Mr Collins.pdf [6.55 KiB]
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:19 pm 
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Hi Mike

Here's another little twig for your family tree:
I looked at baptisms of children of David Collins and Bridget Halloran on http://www.ennisparish.com/genealogy/ and noted the baptism of Mary in 1876 (which you have duly entered in your family tree) and also the baptism of Elizabeth on Mar. 3rd 1879. The Drumcliff baptism register shows that Elizabeth’s sponsors were John O’Connell and Bridget O’Connell.
I looked on www.irishgenealogy.ie for a record of the marriage, or death, of Elizabeth Collins and found that the death of an Eliza Collins, aged 0, was registered in Ennis in 1879. I’m guessing this was baby Elizabeth.

Sheila


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:25 am 
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Hi Sheila

I don't know how I missed Elizabeth Collins - right below Mary !

John and Bridget CONNELL are likely to be siblings of my Mary CONNELL. If so, places them still in the vicinity in 1879.

Some more leads ...

Thanks very much for your continued interest.

Mike.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:12 am 
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I think that John and Bridget Connell, who were sponsors for Elizabeth Collins in 1879, may have been the children of Jean (Collins) and Patrick Connell – children as young as ten acted as sponsors, and John and Bridget were aged 13 and 16 in 1879. If so, that baptismal record does not add very much to your knowledge of the Connell family. And I think you may be right in guessing that Patrick came from another parish.

You ask who are Mr. and Mrs. Collins (the parents of Jeane Collins). Well, the civil record of the marriage of David Collins to Bridget Halloran in 1874 will give the name of David’s father, but the image of that record is not available online. Look on www.irishgenealogy.ie for the marriage of David Collins, in the Civil Registration District/Office of Ennis, in the year 1874, and you will see what I mean.

I can see from Slater’s Directory, 1846, that James Collins, Drumbiggle, Michael Collins, Armstrong’s Lane, and Thomas Collins, Drumbiggle, were all in the cooperage business. But we can't tell which of these was the father of Jeane, David, etc.
After that date, it seems to be Dalys who have a cooperage in Drumbiggle, but a John Collins, Cooper, appears in Bassett’s Directory, 1875, in Gaol Street, and, according to Guy’s Directory, 1893, is still there in 1893. I think he must be a member of the extended Collins family, but he doesn’t fit with any of the John Collinses in the draft family-tree. Gaol Street (or Jail Street) had become O’Connell Street by 1911 and the census of that year shows him still there, aged 74. His son, also John, aged 32, is living with him. John senior had married Mary Nash in 1875. The marriage was registered in Ennis, but, again, the image of the record is not online – that would give his father’s name - a good clue as to where he fits in.

Sheila


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:17 am 
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Hi Sheila

I have been looking at Collin's and Connell's through the other links available through the CCL site and have seen some of the individuals you identify - but hadn't got as far as you in making the possible connections. Thanks for that and the background regarding practices of the times with regard to sponsors.

A neat link with the Collin's cooperage business is that Patrick Connell is listed with occupation cooper on the birth records of his children that I have copies of and also on the death record I have for Jean(e). Also, a number of the Connell children of Patrick and Jean are recorded as living in Drumbiggle.

I am also aware of the variability of images available from the civil records database - but it's a great resource as one can get lucky or one can at least get some leads to help build likely family structures - or focus on possible records to purchase.

I will press on and update the possible tree.

Thanks,

Mike.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:06 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:58 am
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Location: Qld Australia
Hi Mike
Not sure if you are aware of this, but if you are searching for people of a certain occupation, say cooper, then
in the NAI census search box,
insert the year 1901, then county Clare,
then select "More search options" and insert cooper in the occupation box.
This will bring up all the coopers in Co Clare in 1901, 101 in all.
Scrolling thru the list I notice a certain Joe Connoll in Ennistymon (note the name spelling), a member of one of two families of that name in Ennistymon.
Hope this helps
Cheers, murf


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:24 am 
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Hi Murf

Thanks for your interest and advice regarding the advanced filters on the census search. I've had a quick look and need to come back to it with a larger window of time to interweave the census info with that which I already have. The cooper occupation angle seems to be a means to tie some of these people together - particularly for the Collins - taking into account the information that Sheila has uncovered about Collins coopers in the early directories for the area.

I'm looking forward to joining some more dots !

Thanks again,

Mike.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:35 am 
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Hi Sheila, Murf and others ...

I'm posting for general information an updated DRAFT family tree for the Collins I'm tracking.

Since my last post, and on Sheila's advice, I applied for a photocopy of the marriage record for David Collins and Bridget O'Halloran. This returned the name of David's father and his father's profession - Thomas and cooper respectively. This fits very well with the 'cooper' theme.

I also took time to review the gleanings from my Ennis visit in June and found a photo of a page in a book called The Merchants of Ennis. It is a collection of entries by surname from various old directories. It suggests that there were Collins in Ennis from as early as 1746 (James) and 1764 (Thomas). These could well be forebears of Thomas the cooper.

Using the civil records I have recorded a number of Collins who died before 1900 - including Thomas the cooper who appears to have died in 1869 at the age of 76 (born c 1795).

Can anyone suggest where one would start looking to find marriages and baptisms in the Ennis area that occurred before the Ennis Cathedral began recording such records ?

Thanks,

Mike.


Attachments:
Descendants of Thomas Collins.pdf [4.08 KiB]
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:56 pm 
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Hi Mike

It’s good that you have found the father of David, Jeane, John and Mary(?) Collins. And I think it is safe to say that he is the Thomas who is listed in Slater’s Directory 1846 as a cooper with a business in Drumbiggle.

And I see that you have filled out the first draft by adding the marriage of David’s daughter, Mary, (to Martin Donnellan) and by adding the children of Mary (the Cottrells).

You have done well to get back to 1795, the birth year (approx.) of Thomas. I think this is as far as most people get, and I myself am quite pleased to have traced my forebears back to the late 18th c. There are little, or no, records (for the common people) beyond that. The records for Drumcliff parish start at 1841, and I’m sure you have looked on http://www.registers.nli.ie for the start date for the parishes that adjoin it.

I am thinking hard about what records you might be looking for. You have the approx. birth-year for Jeane – going on her age given in the record of her death. Likewise you have the birth-year for David. Are you looking for birth-years for their brother John and their sister?

First to the sister of David and Jeane: I think you made a typo - you give her as Mary, but the Ennis parish records show that she was Hanna. I looked for a Hanna Browne in the 1901 census but failed to find any (I also looked for Anne Browne). I looked for the death of Hanna/Anne Browne in http://www.irishgenealogy.ie, in the hopes of finding her age at death, but did not find her. Have you tried to find records for her children? She might show up living with one of them in 1901.

Secondly to John, the brother of David and Jeane: You say that John married Honora Cunningham and that they had two children (1848 and 1849). I can’t find John, or Honor in the 1901 census. Had you also failed to find anything for this family? The only John I can find is the one I mentioned in my last reply to you, but his wife is Mary Nash. It’s just possible that Mary is a second wife. Did you happen to get a record of the marriage of John and Mary in 1875?.

Finally, Patrick Connell remains a mystery. Does the death record for Jeane (1882) describe her as a widow?

Sheila


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:48 am 
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Hi Sheila and others

Thanks for your advice again Sheila.

In response to a couple of your questions ...

All I did to get the extra generation was to select an extra one in my family history package. The family of Mary Connell I had previously nutted out pretty well with help from a relative over here in Australia with the same interest. I did, as you say, find a few more names and dates in the Irish Collins area - with the hope that I may be able to discover living relatives over your way in due course.

On the possible typo Hanna/Mary ... I have checked the NLI register images that relate to the Ennis Parish records and discovered that, while the birth of the first child looked to be of Dan and Hanna (Collins) Browne, all of the subsequent children were born to Dan and Mary. Also, their 3rd child Eliza had sponsors of Pat Connell and Jane Collins (nice !). Another child of Dan and Mary's had a sponsor of Catherine Collins (I might soon add her to the Collins siblings). I had only a few days ago advised the Ennis Parish records people that Hanna perhaps should be Mary and today I received an email from Brid (of Ennis Parish) that they would update the online records accordingly. Mary Browne remains an angle to pursue a bit more.

I have struggled with John and Honora too. John fits really nicely as being Jeane's brother - Jeane being a sponsor of their son John. I haven't found any more about them. I've tried some emigration records - but not thoroughly.

I've seen John and Mary Nash along the way - maybe you're right and I should find out how that John may be related.

I've come across a record from the Tulla baptisms register - 31/3/1833 - for a Jane (or James) Collins born to John (?) and Norree (?) Corbet. Doesn't work too well with the theory of Thomas as my Jeane's the father though.

Jeane's death record says ... wife of a cooper ... which I suspect means that Patrick was still alive in 1882 when Jeane died. I'm hopeful that Jeane and Jane are one in the same as the death record and most of the baptism records for her children record her as Jane. It's only her marriage and baptism of the first child that record her as Jeane - as well as her sponsorship of suspected sibling John's son John.

Also, thanks for the advice on how I should set my expectations regarding finding too much before 1800.

I shall press on ...

Thanks,

Mike.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:38 pm 
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Hi Mike

Thanks for answering all those questions!

So Mary Collins (who married Dan Browne) is Mary Collins after all. That’s good.

I thought that knowing that Patrick Connell was still alive in 1882 would help with searching for his death, but still can’t see any record that fits.

I can see how difficult it is for you to find Patrick and Jane’s children. I just now looked at O’Connells in Ennis in 1901 and I was very surprised to see how few there are. There’s a Michael O’Connell and family from Limerick, and a Maurice O’Connell and family, also from Limerick, and two ladies who are Mercy nuns living in Arthur’s row and a Richard O’Connell in St. Flannan’s boarding school – these three could be from anywhere in the county; there’s a Kate O’Connell, Hotel Manageress, from Cork; a Margaret O’Connell, Servant, from Tipperary; a Raphael O’Connell, a Francisan priest, from Cork. In fact, of the 25 listed, I think Winnifred OConnell, Dressmaker, aged 22, in Mill Street is the only one who might be a native of the town. Then I looked at the Connells, and again was surprised at how few there are; of the 8 Connells listed, 7 are from the same family headed by Thomas, aged 50, in Old Mill Street. The other O’Connell is John Connell aged 29, Soldier - Connaught Rangers. These 8 Connells, I think, are more likely to be related to your Connells than any of the O’Connells. I looked to see if the marriage of a Thomas Connell had been registered in Ennis between 1870 and 1885 – a record of his marriage would give his father’s name – but found nothing.
I looked at the headstones in Drumcliff graveyard, both old and new. Again, very few for O’Connell, and nothing to show me that any are for of them are for Patrick and Jane.

I don't know where you can go next with the Connells. I suppose you could check death records to see if any of the children died young, or if there's a marriage for any of them.

Sheila


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:21 pm 
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Hi Mike

I looked again at your family tree and realize that Thomas Connell (aged 50 in 1901) can’t be the son of Patrick and Jane – their Thomas was born in 1869. And I see also that you have already found the death of their son, Patrick, in 1873.
I looked at all the registrations for Connell/OConnell in Ennis district between 1864, when registration became law, and 1901. I found nothing that would fit Bridget (unless she is the Bridget who married in 1899), or David, or Thomas, or Michael. But here’s a record you might be interested in sending for: the death of John Connell in 1875, at age 17.

Do you have any record of Mary Connell’s arrival in Australia (sometime before 1878)? I am wondering if any other members of the family went with her.

Getting nowhere with the Connells, I looked at Mary Collins, daughter of David Collins and Bridget Halloran, who married Martin Donnellan in 1908. The 1911 census shows her, aged 35, living in Drumbiggle Road (Ennis No. 2 Urban) with her mother, Bridget Collins, aged 71, a widow, and her son, John. John was born in 1909 (www.irishgenealogy.ie). I looked for him using www.familysearch.org and found that he went to New York in 1928. There are two records of his passage to America – his name is crossed out in the first one – he may have missed the boat. I hoped the second one (1928) would give the name of a relative he was going to, but it doesn’t. Familysearch also shows his marriage in Manhattan, in 1937, to Margaret Engleton; his parents are named as Martin Donnellan and Mary Collins.

Sheila


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