Sorting out DNA results, apparent Limerick gene for me

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smcarberry
Posts: 1281
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:31 pm
Location: USA

Sorting out DNA results, apparent Limerick gene for me

Post by smcarberry » Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:13 pm

I have found sufficient data in my "DNA Relatives" identified by 23andMe to say that the extreme right-end of Chromosome No. 16 (see below graphic portrayal) is associated with either a Limerick or Tipperary family. I think it's Limerick, and I'll work to confirm that with others sharing that segment with me. So far, I have found 5 of us, with some not listing anything about their family backgrounds, and one is an adoptee. Two do show their family surnames (see below). One of them still bears a listed surname, and she states that her father was born in Doon, Limerick (although she also lists Tipperary as the origin of some of her surnames). The surname of Doon is Hayes.

I can't currently say that Hayes of Clare could be involved, because Doon in Limerick adjoins Cappamore, which is a known, longtime home of a Carberry family (the bakers and sportsmen). My sharing of this segment might help with establishing where my Carberry family was before they relocated to Clare by the early 1800s. I do have an 1803 British Army ad seeking Thomas Carberry of Kilfaclyn for having deserted his Limerick militia unit, and there is a Thomas Carberry who pops up in West Clare (his line left for New York and Australia). My family of East Clare had both a Thomas and a Peter T[homas] in the next generation down from the West Clare one.

So, for what it's worth, there is useful info to sift out of these DNA results.

Sharon Carberry
Chromo 16's end segment.jpg
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Limk, Tippy surnames for end-of-16 segment.jpg
Limk, Tippy surnames for end-of-16 segment.jpg (23.43 KiB) Viewed 9859 times

smcarberry
Posts: 1281
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:31 pm
Location: USA

Re: Sorting out DNA results, apparent Limerick gene for me

Post by smcarberry » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:15 pm

I have had a weekend of reviewing saved material to understand how a Hayes family of eastern Limerick shares a DNA segment with me. I am not a DNA expert, but, after basic reading on DNA-based genealogy and with extensive classic genealogy on my paternal and maternal lines, I have assimilated the startling news of my Viking heritage and can see it in the autosomal results reported by a company that has no knowledge of my Carberry Y haplogroup and thus can't provide guidance in sorting the results. In fact, as explained in a second posting I'll do, I can refute a new interpretation of my ancestry attempted by that company, because I have a family tree built on solid documentation. While DNA genealogy is exciting, there is no substitute for a paper trail.

So, how does Hayes fit into my genealogy ? Without divulging too much of my specific DNA results (lest another family historian “adopt” my family and publish her own set of “truths” without sufficient basis), I am showing below the full portrayal of Chromosome 16 for which one very right-hand segment matches with the Hayes family of Doon. I am also showing my X chromosome as, being female, I have no Y but nonetheless I inherited half of my X material from my father. (Showing this is not permission to post it anywhere else.) 23andMe has no way of knowing which half of this chromosome comes from my paternity, but I do. The blackish color shown on X's bottom half is, according to 23andMe, my Scandinavian heritage. With Y results (from a different company) establishing that my Carberry line is R1a1a, tied to migration of a Scandinavian gene pool into Ireland, I know that the top half of 16 is from my father, the origin of my segment shared with Hayes. Sometime, perhaps back in the 1700s, someone from Limerick (or whose descendants settled in that county) inputted into my line his DNA. This is credible, as Limerick was a Viking stronghold at one point and has been in many recent centuries a great economic centre for families relocating to get into better circumstances.

The solidity of this new info and the fact that it occurred for me with no prior knowledge of Limerick involvement means that maybe other Clare descendants need to become familiar with Viking DNA existing in current Irish residents and the Diaspora. A family in New Zealand has already gone down this road, as shown in the article donated to the Library, from which the below excerpt is taken. This is online at:

An O'Grady Path into New Zealand History
by P. Danenberg, M. Murtagh & R. Murtagh
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... culata.htm
Chromo 16, both halves.jpg
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My X, both halves.jpg
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O'Grady of NZ R-M269 with Scot tie-in.jpg
O'Grady of NZ R-M269 with Scot tie-in.jpg (50.72 KiB) Viewed 9828 times

kbarlow
Posts: 160
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:07 am

Re: Sorting out DNA results, apparent Limerick gene for me

Post by kbarlow » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:14 am

Hi Sharon, in trying to ascertain the lineage of the O'Hehir tribe, two sources say they are not Dalcassian, but of UiFiginte background. This group were located in Limerick and pushed into Clare by the McNamaras. By 1100 AD located in UiCaisin (I think this is the Islands/Inchiquin) locality (Frost, James (1893 )The History and Topography of the County of Clare, downloaded from http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... /frost.htm; Nugent, P (2007 ) The Gaelic Clans of Co Clare and their territories 1100-1700 AD, Geography Publications, Dublin).

So it may be the "limerick" genes we are both chasing!

Kerry

smcarberry
Posts: 1281
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:31 pm
Location: USA

Re: Sorting out DNA results, apparent Limerick gene for me

Post by smcarberry » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:44 am

Kerry,

You are certainly welcome to join the chase. You are finding a need to sort out sources and deal with ambiguities, as does anyone researching this historical period prior to 1400 or so. The multiplicity of geopolitical units/names and the old spellings can complicate things. I think you will find that the Baronies of Islands and Inchiquin were not part of Ui Caisin territory, although some boundaries varied over time as McNamara power expanded during the centuries while they were on the ascendant. I looked for a map and couldn't find one quickly in the materials I used while assembling an article examining the origins of Kilkishen and some of its surrounding estates. However, Thomas Westropp, when using a barony extent of Ui Caisin territory, referred to Bunratty and Tulla Baronies. He also spoke in terms of deaneries, a Protestant/English reference. I needed the very southern boundary, so I didn't note much about the western side of the old tuath. Note also that Clann Cuillean (or a spelling variation) is used synonomously with Ui Caisin territory, and there are Clare historians for that as well.

I depended on the following Clare historians, who were publishing at the same time as James Frost:

History of Clare and the Dalcassian clans of Tipperary Limerick, and Galway
by Rev. Patrick White (Dublin, 1893)
http://ebooks.library.ualberta.ca/local ... 00whituoft
and
The Antiquities of Limerick and Its Neighborhood
by T.J. Westropp et al. (Dublin, 1916)

See their opinions on Ui Caisin territory and vassal septs, below.

I hope you can get to the point of publishing even a brief article on O'Hehir early history. You may want to review others' summations of their sept history in this very same early period, if only to consult the sources they found reliable:
Survey of the McInerney Sept of Thomond, by Luke McInerney
(Published in The Other Clare Vol 31, 2007 & Vol 32, 2008)
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... tories.htm

History of the O'Gradys of Clare and Limerick
by Gerard Madden (Clare, 2007)

Best of luck,
Sharon C.
White on Dalcassian septs, p.19.jpg
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Luke McI on populating a new tuath.jpg
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Westropp on McNamara  Ogashin territory 1600s.jpg
Westropp on McNamara Ogashin territory 1600s.jpg (27.04 KiB) Viewed 9792 times

kbarlow
Posts: 160
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:07 am

Re: Sorting out DNA results, apparent Limerick gene for me

Post by kbarlow » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:44 am

Hi Sharon - thank you for those references. White certainly thinks the O'Hehirs are Dalcassian. The earlier history of the O'Hehir is stage 2 of my project, and I keep getting side-tracked by new info as it arrives, including the exciting genetic genealogy material! Haven't completed stage 1 of the project yet - which is from the time of the White-boys in Clare until the 1950's in Oz.

Life is too short for all the research we need to do, especially in a disciplined way.

Kerry

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