Carrig/ O'Connor

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Blondie
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Re: Carrig/ O'Connor

Post by Blondie » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:34 pm

Is there anywhere to find the family of Bridget Connor born about 1830 married John? Shannon also may have been born about 1830, in Kililagh Parish. Possibly lived in Doolin? I believe she is my connection to my previous post. Thank you.

Sduddy
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Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Carrig/ O'Connor

Post by Sduddy » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:24 am

Hi Colleen

In the 1901 census for Ballyvara (Killilagh D.E.D.) I see John Shannon aged 50, his wife Mary, their son Jim aged 27 and daughter Mary aged 24, plus niece, Annie Oconnor, aged 4. In the Lisdoonvarna baptism records I see that a James Shannon was born to John Shannon and Mary O'Connor in 1873. So I reckon John Shannon's wife is Mary O'Connor. But I can't find a record of their marriage so I don't know who her father is.
As for Annie - she was born in 1896 to David O'Connor and Bridget O'Connor (O'Connor is her maiden name). David is in the 1901 census, aged 40, a widower, with the other 3 of his 4 children. His wife Bridget had died that January aged 32. But I can’t find a record of the marriage of David and Bridget, which I reckon took place about 1890 – 1896. That would have given me her father’s name.

The O’Connors in Doolin are like the stars in the heavens and it’s very hard to know when you have the right one.

Sheila

Blondie
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:43 pm

Re: Carrig/ O'Connor

Post by Blondie » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:42 pm

Thank you Sheila. I'm not even looking at those O'Conors born late 1800s. My DNA match is definitly further back than that. That's why I asked about how I would find the parents of Bridget Connors/ O'Connor born in 1830, married to John Shannon. It could be closer as it appears the O Connors and the Shannons of Doolin married each other , but in order for all three of us to match I think I had to go back several generations. I found a record on Ancestry of the above named couple actually living in what is now Gus O'Connors pub. I'll see if I can find it again and post it.
Thanks again.

Sduddy
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Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Carrig/ O'Connor

Post by Sduddy » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:43 pm

Hi Colleen

Yes, those records I gave you are of no use to you. The most they will do is show who’s not related to who – and that’s not much use!
But I don’t think there are any records available in Ireland that will give you the information about relationships that you are looking for, because, as you know, the baptism records for Lisdoonvarna parish start at 1854 and the marriage records start at 1860, which is much too late.
I looked to see if families held land in common (by a system often called rundale) in Ballyvara and Luogh, as this can signify relationship (according to James R. Reilly - see http://www.leitrim-roscommon.com/GRIFFI ... ffiths.PDF), but I see that there is no land held in common there.

U.S. records might yield something. Bear in mind that you know the names of Anne Carrig’s parents only because they are in U.S. death records – there is no record in Ireland that would have given you both their names (because, as I say, the early Lisdoonvarna parish records have not survived).

There may be someone living in Ballyvara who knows all about the relationship that you are concerned with. Or there may be a genealogist living in the area who has collected this information over the years, but I imagine such a person will charge a fee.

Anyway, I hope someone else will do better than me at helping you.

Sheila

Blondie
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:43 pm

Re: Carrig/ O'Connor

Post by Blondie » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:47 pm

Sheila,
You have done a fantastic job looking up all these things for me and I truly appreciate it. I have connected with someone who's Aunt lives in Doolin and they are checking for me. I hope next time I respond, I will have some news.
Thank You again,Colleen

Blondie
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:43 pm

Re: Carrig/ O'Connor

Post by Blondie » Wed May 30, 2018 2:00 am

I have found out I am connected to several people from this line. David O' Connor born about 1833-1837 in Lough, Doolin . Married a Mary Fitzgerald in 1858 also in Lough.i have a family tree of their descedents but once again I'm faced with nobody being able to trace any further back. Don't know who either of their parents were.Hoping maybe someone on here can. Too really confuse the matter, I could be connected to all these people through the O'Connors or the Fitzgeralds! Hoping by some chance someone can go back past 1830s!
Thank you!

Blondie
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:43 pm

Re: Carrig/ O'Connor

Post by Blondie » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:33 pm

I believe I may have found another sibling of Michael, Martin and Patrick Carrigg. I discovered a Maria Carrigg living in the same small town in the US as Michael. On church records she is listed as godmother to one of Michael and Ann's daughters. She is married to a John Carey who is much older than her . He has 4 children , by a previous marriage, and one by Maria, named Timothy( Maria's fathers name?). It lists her as being born in 1854. Is there a Mary or Maria born in Kililagh parish in that year?
Also is there a tradition regarding godparents in Ireland? Are they usually family members? What about age of godparents? I assume they must be adults?
Thank you, Colleen

Sduddy
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Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Carrig/ O'Connor

Post by Sduddy » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:44 pm

Hi Colleen

It’s good that you have found a possible sister for Michael.

Kililagh civil parish is in the Catholic parish of Lisdoonvarna, and the only baptism register, which has survived, starts at 1854. I see no record of Maria’s baptism in it, but I did not really expect to find it - Timothy Carrig did not begin to lease land in Kililagh until sometime after Griffith’s Valuation (1856) - I think that he and his wife, Bridget Tierney, already had all their children before they came to live there, with the possible exception of Patrick who was born abt. 1860 and who may have been baptised in nearby Kilshanny. No register for Kilshanny has survived.

Maria’s baptism may have been recorded in some other parish, but which parish?
If all you want (for now) is to be sure that she is a sister of Michael, the best way is to get a record of her marriage – that will give her father’s name. She probably married about a year before the birth of Timothy, whenever that was.

As for godparents, they can be siblings, relatives, or friends and can be any age from about 10 years of age upwards.

Sheila

Blondie
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:43 pm

Re: Carrig/ O'Connor

Post by Blondie » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:07 pm

Thanks again Sheila. Interesting that godparents could be as young as 10. This may be a stupid question but what about confirmations in Ireland. Here in the States, I've found church records of the Carrigg children. Did people keep records there?
On another note, I'm convinced that Bridget Tierney is not the biological mother of at least Michael. I say that because with all the DNA matches I have, I come across all my family names in various trees, not once have I come across the surname Tierney. It might account for the gap in births between Michael, Martin and Patrick . I have no way to prove it, but I think it's possible.

Sduddy
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Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Carrig/ O'Connor

Post by Sduddy » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:52 am

Hi Colleen
I don’t think that records of confirmation were kept – not in the 19th century anyway. It’s interesting to hear that they were kept in the US.

You wonder if Michael’s mother was really Bridget Tierney and maybe she wasn’t, but the certificate of Michael’s death gives Bridget Tierney as his mother. It’s possible, of course, that whoever gave that information just assumed that she was Michael’s mother, but I still think the weight of evidence is in favour of her really being Michael’s mother. The gap between the birth of Michael (anywhere between 1839 – 1848) and the birth of Martin (1843) is a reasonable gap. Yes, Patrick was born much later (abt. 1860), but women had children from the time they were married (at about age 25) until the end of their childbearing years. During the famine years (1845 – 1850) many young children died of the diseases that came with the famine, plus the fertility of women was very likely reduced due to malnutrition, but I’m sure that Timothy and Bridget had more children born to them between 1850 and 1860. Maria may be one of those. We have already noted that a Biddy Carrigg was sponsor at the baptism of Johanna in Lisdoonvarna parish in 1870. Of course Biddy might be Bridget nee Tierney, but she might also be a sister of Michael, Martin and Patrick.

Sometimes the name of the person who reported a death or birth can provide a crumb of information, so I looked again at the civil records of the birth of Susan (Johanna) in 1870 and at the births of Martin’s children, Mary (1870), Norry (1872) and Bridget, but I got no crumb of extra information. We don’t know where Martin and Bridget Finn’s children were baptised – it would be useful the have the names of the sponsors. They were not baptised in Killilagh – at least they are not in the Lisdoonavara parish register. I strongly suspect that they were baptised in Kilshanny. The surname of Martin’s wife, Finn, is not very common in Co. Clare. There are only 109 Finns living in Clare in 1901 – but 10 of those are living in Kilshanny and 4 of those are a family living in Carrowmanagh North - right beside Patrick Carrig and his family. It is tempting to think that Martin married “the girl next door”. The townland of Carrowmanagh North is adjacent to the townland of Carnane, but Carrowmanagh North is in Kilshanny parish and unfortunately we have no records for Kilshanny.

Sheila

Blondie
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Re: Carrig/ O'Connor

Post by Blondie » Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:29 pm

In case someone else is researching Carriggs. I was able to confirm that my Michael Carrigg did indeed have a sister, Mary or Marie. I recently found a marriage certificate of John Carey to Mary Carrigg born about 1854 in Ireland. Parents are listed as Timothy and Margaret Tierney.(Thats a new clue as I'Ve only known her as Bridget). They were married in Woburn , Massachusetts which is where my Carriggs originally settled before moving to NYS. Hoping to find more siblings.

Sduddy
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Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Carrig/ O'Connor

Post by Sduddy » Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:01 pm

Hi Colleen

That’s great. Well done. Yes, I see the marriage, in 1874, on www.familysearch.org, and I see that Mary Ann’s surname is spelled “Carage” – yet another variation of the the name!
It’s interesting that Mary Ann’s mother is called Margaret – not Bridget. Such a pity that Margaret’s own surname (maiden name) is not given! But the Woburn connection is a great bit of evidence and makes up for what’s missing. Also the name Timothy Carrigg is not very common.

I looked again for the marriage record for Patrick Carrigg, who remained at home in Carnaun. I was quite resigned to not finding one (see my posting on page 2 of this thread made on Aug. 10, 1017), and I see now that the record of his first marriage was there all along and shows that Patrick Carrigg, aged 21, Farmer, Kilshanny, son of Timothy Carrigg, Farmer, married Mary McMahon, Servant, Kiltoraghty, daughter of Patrick McMahon, Labourer, on 29th Feb. 1878, in Kilfenora Chapel; witnesses: Thomas Kenealy, Bridget McMahon.
I see also that Mary died in December of that year (1878) in childbirth (Parturition). Her address is Carnaun, and Patt Carrigg is the informant (person who reported the death).
I looked for Patrick’s second marriage (to Norah McMahon) but failed to find it. But we have the information we were looking for: Patrick’s father was Timothy Carrigg.

Sheila

Blondie
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:43 pm

Re: Carrig/ O'Connor

Post by Blondie » Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:37 pm

Sheila,
Great find on the marriage of Patrick.Was that in the Parish records? I hope next trip to Ireland to actually get out and walk on the land in Carnaun,as it seems for certain they lived there.
Recently on Ancestry and probably family search,new records have been released because I have found several records of my family in Woburn, Massachusetts. Both civil and church records.
Thank you once again in helping me solve this big puzzle! Hopefully we are assisting someone else who might be looking.
Happy New Year,
Colleen

Sduddy
Posts: 956
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Carrig/ O'Connor

Post by Sduddy » Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:53 am

Hi Colleen, and a Happy New Year to you too.

No, that record is a civil record – not a parish record. I looked for that marriage in the Kilfenora parish records but it’s not there. You will find the record on www.irishgenealogy.ie. Enter "Ennistymon" in the box labelled “Civil Registration District”.

Although Ennistymon is called a Civil Registration District, it was a Union, i.e. a collection of Registration Districts. The Registration Districts which made up Ennistymon Union were called Miltown Malbay, Ennistymon and Roadford. Each of these Registration Districts had it’s own office where births, deaths and marriages were reported and records made. These records were later collected and held in the General Registry Office (G.R.O.).

A birth was reported by a parent of the child, or by the midwife, or another family member. People living in Kililagh parish reported the births of their children at the office in Roadford. Also any deaths. But marriages were a bit different. From 1880, the details of a marriage were recorded by the priest who performed the ceremony. He was expected to keep a special book for this. He also transcribed the details into official forms and these forms were collected by the local registration official (called a Registrar)*. Marriages usually took place in the parish chapel of the bride (not that of the groom), so the forms show the name of the Registration District that the chapel lay in. Take Patrick Carrigg for example: he married Mary McMahon in Kilfenora chapel; Kilfenora lies within Ennistymon Registration District; so, we can find the record under “Ennistymon” – just as we would expect. However, the record of Patrick’s second marriage (to Norah McMahon) is not to be found. Why? Well, I think marriage must have taken place in Kililagh and it seems that some records of the marriages that took place in that parish are lost. I feel sure the details were recorded by the priest. But did he transcribe those details into the official forms? And did the Registrar collect those forms? Or did they get lost in somewhere in transit? Anyway, they are lost.
*https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com ... cords.html

The book of births reported at Roadford has survived, and the book of deaths also. But many of the marriages (not all) are missing. This is sad, because the marriages are the best for genealogy research. I am wondering if the original book used by the priest to record the details of marriages is held at Sandfield house in Ennis. Does anyone know if this is the case?

Sheila

Sduddy
Posts: 956
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Carrig/ O'Connor

Post by Sduddy » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:33 pm

Hi Colleen

Have you noticed that Patrick Carrigg was aged 21 in the time of his first marriage in 1878? This means that he was born about 1857, and so he was a bit older than the age he gave in the 1901 census (40). The 1857 date of birth tallies exactly with the age given at his death in 1935 (78 years). So the gap between the birth of Martin (about 1843*) and the birth of Patrick is a bit narrower than we had thought.
* We have this date thanks to the research done by Kerry (kbarlow).

I looked again at the entry for Patrick Carrigg in the 1901 census and noticed that his sister-in-law, Jane McMahon, is among the household (she may have been visiting that evening). Her age is given as 18, but, as you know, people did not give their exact ages, so when I was looking for her birth record I allowed for that and found that she was born in 1878 to Patrick McMahon and Kate Kilmartin who, at that time, were living in Smithstown, Kilshanny parish. Then I looked for Norah’s birth, and found her as Honoria McMahon, born to Patrick and Kate in 1876; address: Coolpickane (a townland in Kilfenora parish). At that time Patrick McMahon was an agricultural labourer and moved about in the course of his work. In 1901 he is living in Ballyvorda, a townland in Kilmacrehy parish, and his occupation is Caretaker – Land. The record of his death, in 1910, gives his occupation as Farmer.
In 1911, Jane McMahon is aged 23 (but actually aged 31) and living at home with her mother (Kate), now a widow, in Ballyvorda. Kate McMahon lived to a great age. According to the record of her death, she was 93 when she died in 1924. The person who reported her death was Norah Carrigg, her daughter. Kate’s address is given as Ballyhean, a townland in Kilmacrehy parish; Norah’s address is given as Carhuduff, (Carrowduff, a townland in Kilaspuglonane parish). Norah inherited her mother’s longevity; the record of her death in 1964 gives her age as 89, and her address as Knockerskea (Knocknaskeagh, a townland in Kilshanny parish).
As you know, Norah’s husband, Patrick Carrigg, had died many years before, in 1935, aged 78. The person who reported his death was his son, Martin. This is the Martin who was born to Patrick and Norah in 1905 in Carnane. I have found no records, (marriage or death) for any of the other children. The 1911 census shows that of the 7 children born to Patrick and Norah, only 4 were still living in 1911: Thomas aged 10, Martin aged 5, Mary aged 4 and Patrick aged 0, but another child, Austin, was born after that census, in 1912. The 3 children who had died were the first Patrick, the first Austin, and another child whose birth had not been registered – probably died at birth. Some of the surviving 5 children may have emigrated, but Martin, who was still at home at the time of his father’s death in 1935, may have remained at home, and he may be the person who erected the headstone in Kilshanny graveyard after Norah died in 1964.

Sheila

Edited to change Carrowduff from Kilshanny parish to Killaspuglonane parish. There is a Carrowduff in Kilshanny parish but I think the Carrowduff in question here is the one in Killaspuglonane.
Last edited by Sduddy on Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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