Michael G. Considine and Daniel O'Connell

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Sduddy
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Re: Michael G. Considine and Daniel O'Connell

Post by Sduddy » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:20 pm

Hi Deirdre

Thank you for that reply and for offer of help. It’s possible, I think, that someone may have come across a reference to a John Considine who was a newsagent in O’Connell Square in the 19th century. I am beginning to think he might be related to Michael G. Considine in some way, and I am curious about him. He is listed in the Directories on the genealogy page of clarelibrary.ie: http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... nealog.htm (these are the only Directories I’ve looked at).
Pigot’s Directory, 1824, lists him as a Tobacconist in High Street: http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... onists.htm . You will notice that there is also a John Considine, jun., who may, or may not, be his son. That directory also shows a Michael Considine as a Tallow Chandler in High Street: http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... tallow.htm. It’s possible that all these three were related to each other.

Slater’s Directory, 1846, lists a John Considine as a Tobacconist in High Street. It may be that this is John jun. and that John senior had retired or died: http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... onists.htm

Slater’s Directory, 1870, lists a John Considine as a Tobacconist in O’Connell Square. It may be that he was now using the new address for that area, or it may be that his shop in High Street had been demolished to make way for a junction with Bank Place:
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... s_1870.htm
That directory (1870) also lists a John Considine & Son as a Bookseller and Stationer in O’Connell Square. I think this must be the same John Considine. Maybe John Considine jun, now had a son who was ready to share the business with him: http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... s_1870.htm

Bassett’s Directory, 1875, lists John Considine and Sons, J. as Stationers and Fancy Warehouse in O’Connell Square: http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... ioners.htm

Slater’s Directory, 1881, lists Considine & Sons (emigration), O’Connell Sq., under Agents: http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... s_1881.htm
That directory (1881) lists John Considine as Tobacconist in O’Connell Square: http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... s_1881.htm

Guy’s Directory, 1893, however, does not show any John Considine. It shows M Considine as newsagent in Bank Place. It also shows M Considine as Painter and Decorator in Bank Place. I don’t know if both these are the same M Considine. If they are, he is Michael G.’s nephew (we know he was a painter): http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... chants.htm

It appears that John Considine died sometime between 1881 and 1893, but there’s no record of his death. I haven’t looked at the newspapers for that period – that remains to be done sometime in the future. We know that John was still alive in 1881 because his son, Michael, died on 07 December of that year, and the Calendar of Wills shows that John Considine, father of Michael, was granted administration of Michael’s estate: http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchiv ... _00078.pdf
I am wondering whether this John Considine, who was still alive in 1881, was the John Considine senior, or the John Considine junior who were listed in Pigot’s Directory of 1824.

Going on the above, it is tempting to think that M. Considine of Bank Place took over John Considine’s newsagency business sometime about 1893. But I’ve looked at the section on the Considines in The Merchants of Ennis, by Séan Spellissy, (p 46) and he clearly has checked other directories: he says that in 1886 John Considine and Son were booksellers in O’Connell Square, while M. Considine was a newsagent in Bank Street.
So it would appear that the newsagency in O’Connell Square was taken over by some other business. Maybe someone has come across some clue as to what happened.

Thank you again Deirdre.

Sheila

deirdre carroll
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Re: Michael G. Considine and Daniel O'Connell

Post by deirdre carroll » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:57 pm

Thanks Sheila,

Yes I noted those records for John Considine in the various records on Considines generally, as I checked the usual Christian names when checking through findmypast.ie. You had also mentioned them in previous posts, I think. It is hard to make sense of all these relationships but will bear this John in mind when talking to any of the old contacts. Will let you know if I find anything useful. I will let the "hare sit" for the moment as the country reels with the virus issue. My choir was due to go to Brussels early tomorrow but this has been cancelled so we're reeling too! Poor Michael G. and his story is nonetheless providing a welcome relief!

Deirdre

deirdre carroll
Posts: 35
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Re: Michael G. Considine and Daniel O'Connell

Post by deirdre carroll » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:45 pm

Hello again Sheila,

As indicated in my last email, I have now followed up my old contacts, but did not get anywhere due to a combination of their old age and illness, death in one case and so on. I will continue to pursue but it becomes more difficult with the passage of time, and also with the passing of a generation who were quite happy to talk about these matters with an almost complete stranger (I did have old links).

At any rate I have looked at a lot of old records some of which you no doubt have seen.

The 1933 Electoral Register

Ennis Urban no.1 has Peter and Mollie Considine Mill Road. Turlough and Bridget Considine Victoria Road.
Ennis Urban no.2 has Patrick and Aggie Considine Fahy's Lane. Susan, Helena and Kitty Considine Parnell St. Unnamed Considine in Chapel Lane.
Ennis Urban no.3 has John Considine Abbey St. Mary Considine Francis Street.
Ennis Urban no.4 has Michael, Anne, Joseph and Ellen Considine Limerick Road, with Joseph being the rated occupier. A nearby family includes William and Agnes, with Joseph and Elizabeth. O'Connell St. has Michael Considine occupier with Veronica, John, Rita, John Kevin and Bridget.

Pausing now to mention a relevant anecdote. My cousin tells me that the various Considines in Ennis at the time all had nicknames and the one she recalls hearing about was called Slipper Considine. I came across the sister of one of the Brewery Lane Considines referring to her address as Slipway - this could be the origin (think it was 1911 census - will check again).

A further relevant anecdote. As you know the niece of MG Considine married Michael Flynn, also of Brewery Lane (marriage info 1876). Their daughter Mary Flynn married John Coughlan of the Borheen in 1905. Catherine Flynn married Patrick Coughlan of the Borheen in 1914! My Grandmother Delia Carroll sold her house in the Borheen to the Coughlans c. 1940! She left for Dublin.

Brewery Lane

Noticing the 2 families with head Michael Considine in the 1901 Census in Brewery Lane, which is just off Abbey Street, formerly Church Street, and also very close to the Borheen and Lifford Road. The first is Michael Considine born in 1850 (1846 given in 1911 Census) with family. He is described as a car owner. Other evidence which I will come to in a moment describes him as a Mail Car driver The other Michael Considine is the painter with son Joseph, whom you are familiar with.

In 1883 the Clare Journal reported that on 4 June of that year a Newspaper man from Killadysert was prosecuted for having used the words "spy, detective and informer" against the Mail Car Driver Michael Considine of Ennis. Another driver John Burke corroborated the statement being made.
As it happens my Great Grandfather Barney (Bernard) Carroll of the Borheen was also a Mail Car Driver at that time and would certainly have known Michael Considine.

Landed Estates Rentals 1868 - estate of Francis Gore Lifford

Lot 6 has a group which includes Michael Considine, all year to year tenants.
Lot 9 has Edward Kerin and Laurence Considine, lease from 1817.
Lot 10 has Mathew Considine in a group of year to year tenants.
Lot 11 has Patrick Considine.
Lot 13 has Thomas Considine.

Slater's Directory 1856

John Considine and son. Booksellers High St.
Daniel Considine Boot and Shoemakers Market St.
Michael Considine same trade High St.
John Considine Butcher High St.
Lawrence Considine Publican Lifford.
John Considine Tobacconists High St.

I have also looked at the Electoral Registers which I will detail separately,

Regards,

Deirdre Carroll

Sduddy
Posts: 946
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Michael G. Considine and Daniel O'Connell

Post by Sduddy » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:20 pm

Hi Deirdre

Thank you very much for doing all that work on records, and for the anecdotes too.

Yes I looked at the 1933 Electoral Register. Would you believe I was able to take a good guess as to which families most of those Considines belonged – a sign of a lot of straying away from the main path by me!

About the second Michael Considine in Brewery Lane: Michael (1845 - 1911) was one of the many children born to Daniel Considine and Kate Gavin of Kilgobbin in Clooney (Quin). He and his wife Anne (Fox) are in Brewery Lane in 1901, but they had spent many years living in the Causeway, where Michael had a pub and grocery. I was interested to hear the story about him. Michael was an uncle of Joe Considine of Kilgobbin who was killed in August 1922 – I’m not sure whether his death was the last death in the War of Independence, or the first death in the Civil War. I was interested in this family some years ago and did quite a bit of work at that time, but that was before I became interested in Michael Griffy Considine. It’s just a coincidence that I’ve done work on both families - they are not related as far as I know.

Thanks for Landed Estates Rentals 1868 – estate of Francis Gore of Lifford. That gives me some more information on the Considines in Borheen, one of the avenues I’ve gone down in my straying from the main path.

And thanks most of all for the Slaters Directory (1856) with the interesting information that John Considine, Butcher, was in High Street at that time. I’m now wondering if he was connected to John Considine the Bookseller in High Street.

Sheila

deirdre carroll
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Re: Michael G. Considine and Daniel O'Connell

Post by deirdre carroll » Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:32 pm

Thanks Sheila,

That's good that it was of some use and you have filled me in now on the second Michael Considine. The Electoral Registers might be even more useful, which I will get to asap. It's easy to "adopt" this family or group of families - they are full of surprises! It also shines a light on the Ennis of the 19th century,

Deirdre

deirdre carroll
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:43 pm

Re: Michael G. Considine and Daniel O'Connell

Post by deirdre carroll » Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:49 pm

Hello Sheila,

I am now resuming with details from the Electoral Rolls.

1882 Electoral Rolls

John Considine High Street Joint rated occupier
Edmond P. Considine ditto
Michael Considine Church St., Drumbiggle and Coach Office Lane rated occupier
Patrick Considine Mill St., Drumbiggle and White's Lane rated occupier

Separate 1882 addition has:

Michael Considine The Causeway, rated occupier

The above 5 Considines are included in 1884.

1885 Electoral Rolls

Apart from Edmond Considine, the three listed initially for 1882 are still there. A Richard Considine Mill St. has the word objected beside the insert, with line through. Additional names include:

Patrick Considine house at Turnpike
Patrick Considine house and yard Drumbiggle
Michael Considine house and yard Causeway
Patrick Considine land at Drumbiggle and Clonroadbeg

1887 Electoral Rolls

The four new names above are included in 1887, along with Edmond Considine, inhabitant householder in part of a house in High St. Additional names include:

Lawrence Considine inhabitant householder Ennis house and yard
John Considine ditto Orchard Lane, house and yard
Michael Considine ditto Brewery Lane house
John Considine ditto brewery Lane house

1888 electoral Rolls include the same names as in 1887

1895 Electoral Rolls (1891 and 1892 do not appear complete so leaving out)

Richard Considine rated occupier Mill St.
Michael Considine rated occupier Church St. house , office and yard and also Drumbiggle
Patrick Considine inhabitant householder house at Drumbiggle and Coach Office Lane
Line through John Considine at Orchard Lane
Daniel Considine Orchard Lane
Peter Considine inhabitant householder Chapel Lane
Michael Considine ditto house at Brewery Lane
Patrick Considine house and yard at Drumbiggle
Michael Considine inhabitant householder house and yard at Courthouse Road

1903 Electoral Rolls

Michael Considine inhabitant householder house at Lifford
Michael Considine rated occupier Church St. and Coach Office Lane
Michael Considine inhabitant householder house at Brewery Lane

1905 Electoral Rolls

Michael Considine rated occupier Gaol St.
Joseph Considine inhabitant householder at Clonroadbeg
Patrick Considine inhabitant householder at Turnpike

Supplemental list for 1905

Michael Considine painter Brewery Lane
Michael Considine inhabitant householder house at Brewery Lane
Michael Considine rated occupier Church St. and Coach Office Lane

1909 Electoral Rolls

They include the above three persons. Further additions:

Patrick Considine inhabitant householder Turnpike
Michael Considine rated occupier Jail St (their changed spelling)
Joseph Considine inhabitant householder house at Clonroadbeg.

The above records are taken from findmypast.ie.

I'm not sure what conclusions we can draw from these records as to where the original Michael G. fits in?

Deirdre C.

Sduddy
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Re: Michael G. Considine and Daniel O'Connell

Post by Sduddy » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:58 am

Hi Deirdre

Thank you very much indeed for taking so much trouble to send me those records. I’ve been looking at them with interest and will be mulling over them for some time. I am intrigued by Edmond P. Considine, who seems to be occupying a house with John Considine in High Street (the Tobacconist and Newsagent, most likely). I suspect that Edmund is a son of John Considine, but I can’t find any other record of his existence. Edmond Considine is still in High Street in 1887, which suggests to me that the house they were occupying had not been demolished in the joining of Bank Place to the Square, or at least not entirely demolished.

I may seem to be straying Michael G. Considine again, but I’ve pretty much decided that he lived in a house in Brewery Lane that backed onto Bank Place and I strongly suspect that his nephew, Michael Considine (1843 – 1924), lived in the same house.

It was more difficult to qualify for the vote in 1882 than it was in 1885. The Representation of the People Act 1884 greatly increased the size of the electorate. I suspect that Michael G. Considine did not qualify in 1882. He died in April 1884 before the act came into force. That act still excluded women, of course, and also 40% of adult men (the men of no property), but it was a huge improvement all the same.

I am wondering about the John Considine, who has a house in Brewery Lane in 1887. I will be musing over this John and over some others of those Considines for a while. Thank you again, Deirdre.

Sheila

deirdre carroll
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:43 pm

Re: Michael G. Considine and Daniel O'Connell

Post by deirdre carroll » Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:28 am

Thanks Sheila.

Yes there's a lot to mull over.

I agree instinctively that Michael G. must have lived in Brewery Lane where his nephew is shown. It is so near Lifford and Church St. that one wonders is he connected to the Lifford group of Considines, seemingly there for a long time. We can continue to mull over the information from the various sources and hopefully further light may be thrown on the matter.

I note from "The Ennis Compendium" by Sean Spellissey a reference to the existence of family plaques in the Ennis Abbey, one of which is dedicated to the Considine family (1631). I'm guessing that a core family group with branches has existed in Ennis for a long time.

Deirdre C.

deirdre carroll
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:43 pm

Re: Michael G. Considine and Daniel O'Connell

Post by deirdre carroll » Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:47 pm

Hello Sheila again,

More records! I had tried to do the tithes awhile back with no success but have found them now, the problem being the site spelling Drumcliffe incorrectly. The tithe dates are 1825 and 1833 but pages are not always clear about the relevant date.

Patrick Considine Lifford sharing quarter of an acre with Michael Cunneen and James O'Neill. 7 pence.
Batt Considine Lifford one +half acre 2/4. Later Batt again 2 acres.
Michael Considine Lifford 2+ acres 8 pence.
Daniel Considine Clonroad More paying 2/9, later 1/11.
Widow Considine same .
Daniel Considine and partners on same page same townland paying 14/1.
Patrick Considine Drumcliffe Glebe (beside Ralph Cullinan). No street name given..could it be Church St area.? This is a big place with another version saying 200 acres.£12 plus.
Daniel Considine Jail St. no payment.
Martin Considine ditto.
Patt Considine Causeway no payment.
Michael Considine Hunt's lane and Post Office Lane two plus half pence.
John Considine Mill St. no payment.

The only apparently well off person in the list seems to be Patrick Considine of the Glebe - could this be Fountain House, associated at one point with the Considine and McMahon families?

More to mull over!


Deirdre C.

Jimbo
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Re: Michael G. Considine and Daniel O'Connell

Post by Jimbo » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:06 am

Hi Sheila,

After having a thorough read of this thread from the beginning, I discovered information on the Edmond Considine that you are interested to know more about:
I am intrigued by Edmond P. Considine, who seems to be occupying a house with John Considine in High Street (the Tobacconist and Newsagent, most likely). I suspect that Edmund is a son of John Considine, but I can’t find any other record of his existence. Edmond Considine is still in High Street in 1887, which suggests to me that the house they were occupying had not been demolished in the joining of Bank Place to the Square, or at least not entirely demolished.
Back in September 2019, I posted about an 1859 meeting of the Electors of the Borough of Ennis — see transcribed article on page 1. This included a long listing of electors in Ennis. The fourth name after "John Considine, Church-st" (highlighted in blue) was "E P Considine", Edmond P Considine.

So this provides new information on the probable relationship between John Considine and Edmond P Considine, both reported as a "joint rated occupier" on High Street in the Elector Rolls in 1882 as well as in 1888.

To recap, the shopkeeper John Considine had a bachelor son named Michael who died in 1881 at the age of 49, so born about 1832. Accordingly, this John Considiine was likely born prior to 1812.

The fact that Edmond P Considine was an elector in 1859, I reckon that this decreases the likelihood that he would be the son of John Considine of High Street as you had suggested. It's possible that E P Considine was an elector in 1859 as a young man, but more likely to be of middle age or older. John Considine and Edmond P Considine of High Street were more likely brothers.

On the 1859 listing of electors in the newspaper, John Considine of Church Street was one of the few electors listed with his address. Most likely to distinguish him from John Considine of High Street. But why wasn't John Considine of High Street included as an elector in 1859? It would seem that he would have been prominent enough to be an elector?

Which leads me to a question for you about elector eligibility. If, say, two brothers, both wealthy men of the merchant class, were living in the same household, could both men be electors? Or was one household allowed only one elector? Is this why the two men were reported in 1882 as "joint rated occupiers"?

Finally, have you noticed that all recent attachments have gone missing from the forum? Both photo attachments and Excel attachments — such as the Excel workbooks you posted for Doonass and Truagh baptisms and marriages. It appears that all attachments starting September 2019 are not visible with only the file name showing.

Sduddy
Posts: 946
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Michael G. Considine and Daniel O'Connell

Post by Sduddy » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:02 am

Hi Jimbo

Yes, I noticed that the attachments have gone missing, but I’ve sent the Doonass and Truagh transcriptions by email and they will appear among the Donations sometime soon.

Jimbo, thank you for the work you have done on Edmond P Considine.

About John Considine: In Pigot’s Directory, 1824, there’s a John Considine [Sen.] and a John Considine Jun., both Tobacconists in High Street: http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... onists.htm
I think John Considine Jun. is the newsagent whose son Michael died in 1881 aged 49. And I think you are probably right in saying that Edmond is a brother of this John Jun.. I can understand why we have no record of the death of John Sen., as he probably died before 1864, but it is annoying that there is no record of the death of John Jun. and no record of the death of Edmond.

I don’t know much about qualifying for the vote, which, as you know, changed dramatically in 1884 with the Representation of the People Act 1884: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Represent ... e_Act_1884. That Wikipedia article says that one of the purposes of the Act was to restrict sub-division of one property to qualify multiple voters. But when I was doing my own family tree, I noticed that a great grand uncle, who, in his old age and having no property of his own, had gone to live with relatives, qualified for the vote in 1905 on the basis that he was an “Inhabitant Householder” in part of a house (his relative’s house). In 1899 he had been listed in a supplementary list of ratepayers as paying rates for part of that house – maybe the payment of rates was basis for his inclusion in the Electoral Roll in 1905. I’m afraid I’m very hazy on this subject.

Sheila

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