Looking for Information - Thomas Landers & Bridget Cleary

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Marie W
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Looking for Information - Thomas Landers & Bridget Cleary

Post by Marie W » Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:01 am

My husband and I will be visiting County Clare mid September 2016. I am seeking information about my ancestors. My dad said they were from County Clare.
My great grandfather’s name was Thomas Landers. The date that I have for his birth is September 15, 1806 but in another hand written note it is 1809. The records that I have been able to find associated with his name are Tithe Applotment Books and the names of the places mentioned are Lisheen, East and West Caheria, Breneden, Ballynacally, Frure, Kiladysert and Clondagad.
According to another note he left Ireland April 6,1837 and sailed to Quebec.
My great grandmother’s name was Bridget Cleary. The birthdate I have for her is 1820. I assume they were from the same area. I also have a partial letter to her from her brother Conner Cleary dated June 5, 1892 from Decomade, Lissycasey. On her death certificate her father's name is listed as James Cleary but I have not been able to confirm that or find any additional information.
I always thought that they came to North America together but someone from another branch of the family said they married and Thomas left Ireland and Bridget came later. That would make sense to me because the date of his departure is 1837 and their first child was not born until 1850. That was all the information he could provide.
I am hoping someone might be able to help me find out about my ancestors. I have hit a brick wall and don’t know where to look.
I would be grateful for any help.

murf
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Re: Looking for Information -Thomas Landers & Bridget Cleary

Post by murf » Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:11 am

Hi Marie
Welcome to the forum.
If your gt grandfather Thomas Landers left Co Clare as a single man in 1837, it may be difficult to trace him in Clare sources owing to the paucity of records in the early 19th Century. Likewise for Bridget Cleary. It may be more fruitful to concentrate on family left behind and I feel that Connor Cleary may be a good starting point. Connor (or Cornelius) is not such a common name as Thomas or Michael or Patrick etc, and often you find that such a name may be traced down through the generations of a particular family.
Apart from Kildysart, all of the townlands you mention are located in the Parish of Clondagad/Kilchreest. The parish baptism records reveal a Thomas(1849), Patrick(1852) and James Cleary(1856) sons of Connor Cleary and Anne Cunningham from Beneden, which borders on to Decomade (or Dehomad). The 1901 census shows a Cleary family and a Landers family living in close proximity in Dehomad. Also there is a Connor Cleary in both the 1901 and 1911 census.
When you visit Clare, check if there are Cleary or Landers families still in this area. Some of the old folks can provide a wealth of facts and family folklore.
Also, sift through the transcriptions of the Clondagad and Kilchreest graveyards which may be accessed thru the main genealogy webpage, under Donated Material.
Hope this helps.

Marie W
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Re: Looking for Information - Thomas Landers & Bridget Clear

Post by Marie W » Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:07 am

murf,
I so appreciate your response to my post. The time we will have in County Clare will be limited and I want to make the most of it. The suggestions you posted are very helpful and I have been looking through the material. Is there a Townhall/Mayor or Church in these villages/towns that you mentioned that might contain records?
According to a distant family member our Great-grandfather and Great-grandmother were married just before he left Ireland. Does that sound reasonable? If they were married in Ireland is it possible to locate records of the marriage?
As far as locating the graveyards....will they be difficult to find?
Please understand that I am inexperienced with all this and want to use my time wisely.
Any further help will be great.

murf
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Location: Qld Australia

Re: Looking for Information - Thomas Landers & Bridget Clear

Post by murf » Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:00 am

Marie
The first post on this forum is "Planning a visit to Clare - a vade mecum" which is a family history seeker's guide to visiting Clare, penned by that guru of good ideas, Paddy Casey. I highly recommend that you read it thoroughly, because it contains a plethora of tips and tricks that will ensure that you get the most out of your visit.
As for the Clondagad/Kilchreest Parish, your first port of call may be the parish office located nextdoor to the Ballicorick Church. I'm sure the parish priest could inform you whether there are Landers and Cleary families still resident in the parish, and give directions to the three graveyards, Kilchreest and Clondagad (the two older graveyards), and Lissycasey(in which burials commence in mid 20th century).
The original parish marriage and baptism records are held at the parish office, but unfortunately for you don't commence until late 1846, which is after your ancestors had migrated. But sometimes it can be productive to shift your focus sideways and pick up another line of descent in family that stayed in Ireland, hence my suggestion about investigating Connor Cleary.
Good luck with your search!

Paddy Casey
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Re: Looking for Information - Thomas Landers & Bridget Clear

Post by Paddy Casey » Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:34 pm

murf wrote:Marie
The first post on this forum is "Planning a visit to Clare - a vade mecum" which is a family history seeker's guide to visiting Clare, penned by that guru of good ideas, Paddy Casey.
Thanks for the compliments, Murf. Glad it is of some use. As always I'd be grateful for updates, corrections and additions. The vade mecum was originally written some time back and whilst I have made an effort to keep it up to date there may be important things to add or change which I have missed, e.g. new services in the County which would be of use to itinerant Clare diaspora, improvements in the rural wireless coverage for smartphones and tablets, additions to the transport services, new access arrangements and services at the Dublin repositories. For example, I'd love get some feedback on the new arrangements at the Valuation Office in Dublin for viewing and copying land records such as the Clare Cancellation Books.

All contributions will, of course, be acknowledged and attributed.

Paddy

Jimbo
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Re: Looking for Information - Thomas Landers & Bridget Clear

Post by Jimbo » Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:29 pm

Sound advice from Murf. And Paddy's tips are excellent. One thing I might add is researching your family through home country records to the fullest extent prior to your trip to Ireland. This may sound obvious, but many first time posters on this forum appear to ignore the low hanging fruit of home country records which are often easily accessible on the internet.

Marie, your posts don't mention where Thomas and Bridget Landers ended up in Canada or the USA. If the Landers lived in the USA and were still alive for the 1900 and 1910 census years, then the year of immigration is a reporting field (but not always completed) for those born outside the USA. With the year of immigration as well as the birth year of the first child, we'll be able to assess the likelihood of whether or not Thomas Landers and Bridget Cleary were married in Ireland or not.

Also, providing the names and year of birth for the children of Thomas and Bridget Landers could be helpful. You mentioned that on the death certificate of Bridget Landers, James Cleary was listed as her father but you had no other evidence. If the second son of the Landers was named James (Irish naming tradition of first son named after paternal grandfather of the child; and second son named after maternal grandfather), this would provide further support that James Cleary was indeed Bridget's father.

I would obtain the census records for ever decade possible since they immigrated from Ireland. Whether the Sanders settled in the USA or Canada, the census records are easily available for free on the FamilySearch website:

https://familysearch.org/search/

(advice when completing a query: don't be too specific with the birth year. give a wide 15 year gap or so from when you think your ancestors were born.)

Lucille
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Re: Looking for Information - Thomas Landers & Bridget Clear

Post by Lucille » Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:39 pm

Paddy,

I'm not sure exactly what changes you are referring to in the Valuation office for looking at and copying the Cancellation Books? They have put some of the books on a computerised database, but I'm almost certain that none of the Clare books have been computerised. Therefore I cannot say whether it's easier or not to get at the information and I have never actually seen anyone working on the computers. I was last there about 2 months ago, using the old books, and there is no doubt that they need to be scanned and computerised as I have noticed a deterioration in the state of some of the Ennis books over the last few years.

A development in the National Library and the National Archives that I don't think is currently on your list - both offer free genealogical services, on a first come first served basis, organised by volunteer (I think) genealogists. Check out their websites.

Separately, but related, the Reading Room in the National Archives will be closed for several months from August 2016 for refurbishment.

The last piece of information came from Claire Santry's genealogy blog http://www.irishgenealogynews.com/ which is essential I believe, especially for anyone planning work in Ireland - I'm not related!!

Finally, if you are adding specific bits of information e.g. about an institution perhaps it might be an idea to give the date as it might be no longer valid a few years after. You are providing a great resource; keep it up.

Lucille

Marie W
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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:43 pm

Re: Looking for Information - Thomas Landers & Bridget Clear

Post by Marie W » Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:03 am

all this information is very helpful and again thanks.
Jimbo,
I have spent a lot of time looking through records on familysearch.org but think there is much information I have either not found or don't know where to look. My Great grand parents ended up in Washington County, Ohio USA. I was very excited to find my Great grandmothers year of immigration as 1843 on the 1910 USA census. The date that I have for his immigration is 1837 to Quebec. As I have said they supposedly married...he left Ireland...and she followed later. Also the name of their second son is James.
The names and birth dates(approximate year) are as follows:
Mary 1849-1928 born in Syracruse, New York
Stephen 1851-1924 born in New Matamoras, Ohio(Washington County, Ohio)
Kate 1856-1931 Washington County, Ohio
James 1858-1933 Washington County, Ohio
John 1861-1930 Washington County, Ohio
Margaret 1865-1913 Washington County, Ohio
I have looked for naturalization records but have found none. Any suggestions on that?
I have a photo of Bridget but Thomas seems to have faded into the scenery.
Now that I know the Irish tradition of naming sons I can search using the name of the two oldest sons as well as Bridget's brother Connor.
Would it be of any help to write to the church ahead of our arrival?

Jimbo
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Re: Looking for Information - Thomas Landers & Bridget Clear

Post by Jimbo » Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:56 am

Hi Marie,

You are actually very lucky that you know the townland of Decomade where most likely both your Landers and Cleary ancestors are from. Most Irish Americans are searching for the baptism records of their ancestors to find this townland information - you already know this.

Here is the Landers family in Washington County in the 1860 and 1870 census reports:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MCPH-C54
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M6V1-3F5

On census reports I believe the accuracy of someone's age is most accurate when they were a child; as they get older people tend to fudge their age. So the first born daughter Mary was most likely born about 1853 (as per both 1860 and 1870) and not in 1849. Also, notice that Bridget Cleary's birth year was 1830 in 1860 and 1835 in 1870 census reports. The one consistent thing in the ages on the census reports is that Bridget Cleary was much younger than Thomas Sanders by about 15 years.

Given there is some doubt on whether or not Bridget Cleary was born in 1820, I find it very doubtful that she was married in Ireland prior to her immigration in 1843. And then wait 10 years later in 1853 to have her first child with Thomas Sanders? Most likely Bridget Cleary arrived in America as a single woman and worked as a servant girl like thousands of others prior to her marriage in New York in the early 1850's. If there is any truth to the story about marriage of the much older Thomas Sanders prior to immigrating to Quebec in 1837 (is there any source for this?), it is perhaps that Thomas Landers had a previous marriage prior to Bridget Cleary?

As far as records in Ireland it doesn't really matter, as there are no marriage records (Catholic or civil) prior to Bridget's immigration in 1843 for the area that your ancestors are from. There is no need to write to the church and ask this question as the records do not exist. Here are the Catholic records available for Kilchrist (and you can check neighboring areas) that have been recently been digitized by the National Library Ireland:
http://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0770

The best advice was from Murf to focus on the brother Connor Cleary who stayed in County Clare. You are lucky that the gravestones for Kilchreest cemetery have already been transcribed. Also provided here are map links to find the graveyard and the headstone that you can print out prior to your September trip:
http://tinyurl.com/Kilchreest-graveyard

Doubtful the naturalization records for Thomas Landers would tell you much. My advice would be to send an email to the Washington County library in Ohio and request the obituaries of your ancestors since you have their death dates. Per the link below this library only charges $2 for each search - quite a bargain. Small newspapers in the Midwest (unlike big cities) will often have very detailed obituaries including years of marriage and immigration as well as information on family members.
http://www.wcplib.info/content/local-history-genealogy

And every Catholic parish in a small town in the Midwest has a 75th or 100th anniversary book that is full of details on their parishioners most likely full of photos. Ask the Washington County library if one exists for St. Mary's parish?

And it would be very common that either Thomas Landers or Bridget Cleary had brothers or sisters in Washington County. Ask the library for the obituaries for this Thomas Cleary fellow who is buried with his wife in the same Catholic cemetery as your ancestors.
http://tinyurl.com/findagrave-for-Thomas-Cleary

Paddy Casey
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Re: Looking for Information - Thomas Landers & Bridget Clear

Post by Paddy Casey » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:18 pm

Lucille wrote:Paddy,

I'm not sure exactly what changes you are referring to in the Valuation office for looking at and copying the Cancellation Books? They have put some of the books on a computerised database, but I'm almost certain that none of the Clare books have been computerised. Therefore I cannot say whether it's easier or not to get at the information and I have never actually seen anyone working on the computers. I was last there about 2 months ago, using the old books, and there is no doubt that they need to be scanned and computerised as I have noticed a deterioration in the state of some of the Ennis books over the last few years.

A development in the National Library and the National Archives that I don't think is currently on your list - both offer free genealogical services, on a first come first served basis, organised by volunteer (I think) genealogists. Check out their websites.

Separately, but related, the Reading Room in the National Archives will be closed for several months from August 2016 for refurbishment.

The last piece of information came from Claire Santry's genealogy blog http://www.irishgenealogynews.com/ which is essential I believe, especially for anyone planning work in Ireland - I'm not related!!

Finally, if you are adding specific bits of information e.g. about an institution perhaps it might be an idea to give the date as it might be no longer valid a few years after. You are providing a great resource; keep it up.

Lucille
Lucille,

Thanks for these additions and suggestions. I've just made corresponding changes to the vade mecum.

Re. the changes in the Valuation office for looking at and copying the Cancellation Books, it is quite some time since I was last there and when I was there the facilities and procedures for browsing and recording the contents of those documents were suboptimal. I was given a pile of Cancellation maps and books to riffle through and if I wanted to record anything, e.g. a Cancellation map segment, I had to drag it to the photocopier and position the segment over the copier platen and force down the lid of the copier and then, afterwards, smooth out the map and return it to the heap. I was the only one there who had come equipped with archivists' gloves so, not surprisingly, those invaluable original maps had become dog-eared and stained and frayed at the edges. I wanted to simply photograph the documents to save having to maltreat them but was politely told that photography was forbidden. No discussion on that point. So I was wondering whether those procedures had changed in the meantime. Clearly I could call the Valuation Office to find out but I'd prefer a report from someone who had been there recently.

Paddy

Lucille
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Re: Looking for Information - Thomas Landers & Bridget Clear

Post by Lucille » Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:35 am

Hi Paddy

Photography is the preferred option now in the Valuation Office, and I have photographed extensively from the Cancelled Books - only problem being my not very steady hand! I'm not positive about maps but I would expect them to be the same.

Further to my last post re the National Library's Genealogy service and to Claire Santry's blog - on Monday she mentioned that the NLI now has on-site access in the genealogy room to a number of subscription sites including ancestry, findmypast and newspapers etc so that while it's obviously best to have as much information gathering done before coming to Ireland, as others have said, it also means that more follow-up work can be done if a new direction is discovered.

Lucille

Paddy Casey
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Re: Looking for Information - Thomas Landers & Bridget Clear

Post by Paddy Casey » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:32 pm

Lucille wrote:Hi Paddy

Photography is the preferred option now in the Valuation Office, and I have photographed extensively from the Cancelled Books - only problem being my not very steady hand! I'm not positive about maps but I would expect them to be the same.
Lucille
Hi Lucille,

I'm so glad to hear that. Over the years I've torn my hair out at hearing those widespread prohibitions against photography which are based on no evidence whatsoever ("Infringes copyright...the flash damages the paper"). Some of the reasons given bordered on medieval superstition and others reminded me of the belief among primitive peoples that photography would steal their souls. There remains, of course, one good reason for prohibiting photography: it forces the researcher to pay the repository 0.50 cents apiece for using their photocopy machine.

If one is using a smartphone for photographing maps a useful aid is a selfie stick. It allows one to position the lens vertically over the centre of the map. The disadvantage is that it magnifies handshake.

Re. the various services and sources at those repositories I think I need to strip down and re-write that paragraph in the vade mecum to a minimum, simply referring the reader to the repository websites so that they can get the latest information on their services, times of opening, periods of closure for renovations etc, times of availability of their services, etc.

Paddy

bobcusack
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Re: Looking for Information - Thomas Landers & Bridget Clear

Post by bobcusack » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:58 pm

Hi Lucille and Paddy,
I cannot express enough our pleasure at hearing that the revaluation books are no longer able to be photocopied but are now to be photographed only. We were horrified when we visited last in 2014 and saw many visitors forcing the books down on to the photocopiers and pressing the spines flat subjecting them to risk of breaking the spines. They had no idea of how to treat these frail and valuable records.
Regards,
Bob and Georgina

Lucille
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Re: Looking for Information - Thomas Landers & Bridget Clear

Post by Lucille » Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:04 pm

I'm not sure if you are forbidden to photocopy the Cancelled Books or not, just that it's much easier top photograph them.

I forgot to mention that there is no longer a charge for looking through the books (there was none for O.A.P.s), though there is still a charge for photocopies - which implies they are still possible.

Lucille

Jimbo
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Re: Looking for Information - Thomas Landers & Bridget Clear

Post by Jimbo » Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:37 pm

Hi Marie,

Is finding distant cousins on your September trip to County Clare one of your goals?

Your great grandmother Bridget Cleary appears to have another brother besides Connor Cleary by the name of Peter Cleary.

There is a trifecta of evidence in the baptism records of Clondagad/Kilchreest Parish: On 9 May 1850, Peter Cleary and Elleanor Hartigan had a son named James. (1) the sponsor was Connor Cleary (2) the location was Decamade (3) James appears to be the first born son, and thus further evidence that his grandfather was James Cleary (same as father listed on the death certificate of Bridget Cleary Landers)

http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... 9-1853.htm

Great job murf on transcribing the above records!

Peter Cleary and Eleanor Hartigan appear to have had at least three children (2) Patrick on 1 Jan 1853 and (3) Thady Cleary on 23 May 1856. Perhaps more later if you go to the original records?

Thady was the most unique name and thus easiest to trace to the 1911 Irish Census. I believe this is Thady living in Dehomad with his wife and 5 children (eldest son named Peter):
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... ad/359405/

Thady's children could have lived well into the 20th century, and it shouldn't be too difficult to find Clare residents (at church, at the pub, post office, in the phone book or elsewhere) who know of this family.

You could also trace the children of Connor Cleary provided to you by murf, as well as the other children of Peter Cleary - but be careful as the Cleary surname is fairly common.

I reread my last post, and apologies for the numerous mistakes with Landers versus Sanders. I was watching U.S. election news while writing and it was all about Bernie Sanders. In the 1900 Ohio census, the transcriber also made the same mistake with the widow "Bridget Sanders" . Unfortunately, the census taker left the year of immigration field blank, so you get no further evidence on when she immigrated.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MMXK-4WG

By the way, the Irish naming tradition applies to both boys and girls. My example was to give evidence that James was the father of your great grandmother Bridget. For girls it goes: first born daughter named after maternal grandmother (of the child), second born daughter named after paternal grandmother. Not sure how diligently these traditions were put into practice.

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