Eliza Moloney (Ennis) 1852 Batta Claim of J. Hynes (Bengal)

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Jimbo
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Eliza Moloney (Ennis) 1852 Batta Claim of J. Hynes (Bengal)

Post by Jimbo » Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:49 am

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EDIT Dec 2017: resized attachments to save space on forum
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Last edited by Jimbo on Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jimbo
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Re: Eliza Moloney (Ennis) 1852 Batta Claim of J. Hynes (Beng

Post by Jimbo » Sun Jun 19, 2016 7:01 am

The above postal cover is a recent addition to my stamp collection and includes a "Penny Red" with a depiction of Queen Victoria. The stamp is fairly common, but the accompanying letter highlights an interesting bit of Irish history. The 1852 letter is written to the East India Company at their London offices at East India House. It was written by an unknown third party on behalf of Elizabeth Moloney of Ennis, County Clare. The stamp cancel of "466" indicates that it was posted from the Liverpool post office. If posted from the Ennis post office the stamp cancel would have been "211" (who said stamp collecting was boring!). Below is a link providing the postal cancel numbers used by each post office in Ireland:

http://www.gbps.org.uk/information/po-n ... county.php

In the 1852 letter Elizabeth Moloney first thanks the treasurer of the East India Company for the timely receipt in 1850 of funds from the estate of Joseph Hynes of the 2nd Bengal European Regiment. She then requests the "batta donation" of Joseph Hynes be transferred to her from the prize agent.

Joseph "Hines" born in 1820 is listed on the "India Deaths and Burials, 1719-1948" (FamilySearch website) as being a private in H Company of the 2nd Bengal European Regiment and buried in Bengal, India on 3 September 1849. The FIBIS website (Families in British India Society) has Joseph Hynes date of death as 8 August 1849 and burial at Agra Cantonment Cemetery [EDIT: incorrect Joseph Hynes, this man died in 1898 and not 1849].

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1 ... print=true
http://search.fibis.org/frontis/bin/aps ... id=2005494 [EDIT: incorrect Joseph Hynes]

The FIBIS website is truly brilliant. Any internet query on the East India Company seems to lead back to their website. Here is the FIBIS definition of "batta" and "prize" money:

http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Prize_and_Batta

In the 1855 Griffith's Valuation, Elizabeth Moloney was still living at King's Bow, Mill Street, Ennis - the same address as the 1852 letter. Mill Street is now Parnell Street. King's Bow in Ennis is marked on Google maps, but I can't work out if it just an alley way or other small lane behind Parnell Street?

http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... mcliff.htm

The connection between Elizabeth Moloney and Joseph Hynes isn't provided in the letter. One obvious explanation would be that Elizabeth's maiden name is Hynes and is a sister of Joseph. But could find no marriage record in the Ennis parish records. So perhaps a cousin? Another possibility is that Elizabeth Moloney was the fiancé of Joseph Hynes and planned to marry at the end of his commitment with the East India Company? In the 1901 Irish Census, there is an 80 year old domestic servant named Elizabeth Moloney living on Old Towne Street in Ennis who had never been married.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... t/1072977/

There have been several Hynes researchers on the Clare Past Forum, perhaps they can provide a connection between Elizabeth Moloney and Joseph Hynes?

Being a private in the 2nd Bengal European Regiment, Joseph Hynes would have participated in the 2nd Anglo-Sikh War. At the first half of 1849 were the Battle of Chillianwalla and the Battle of Gujrat which both had a large number of deaths and even greater numbers of wounded. Perhaps a battle wound could have led to the death of Joseph Hynes in August 1849?

Until recently, my image of the Irish of the 18th and 19th centuries were small tenant farmers who rarely left their townland and perhaps only to find a wife in a neighboring townland within walking distance. Surprised to learn of the large numbers who enlisted in the British Army as well as East India Company fighting in exotic locations with names like Chillianwalla and Gujrat. Books on the Irish potato famine never mention that along with emigration to America or Australia one survival option was enlisting in the British Army and fighting across the British Empire. Nor that many back in Ireland, similar to Elizabeth Moloney of Ennis, would be dependent upon pensions and batta prize money originating from the British Empire. And in now reading several books on the history of the East India Company, have not found one single reference to the Irish participation in the British Raj!

Given this lack of acknowledgement it is not surprising that few Irish family historians would even consider looking in India for their ancestors. The FIBIS website has the statement "your brick wall is in India" under their logo and this might well be true for surnames you are researching. I had only a quick look at their listing of those enlisted in the East India Company at Bombay (one of 3 presidencies along with Madras and Bengal) and found several soldiers with County Clare birth places:

http://www.search.fibis.org/frontis/bin ... 47&s_id=13
- Patrick Hynes of Ennis enlisted in 1836 and died in 1844
- Michael Ryan of O'Brien's Bridge enlisted in 1838 and died in 1847
- James Ryan of Kilrush enlisted in 1837

Note: as mentioned previously on this Forum there is also a partial listing of Clare and Limerick recruits to the East India Company linked below, but I recommend going direct to the FIBIS website as much more complete.
http://tinyurl.com/limerick-and-clare-recruits-in
Last edited by Jimbo on Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

topdog
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Re: Eliza Moloney (Ennis) 1852 Batta Claim of J. Hynes (Beng

Post by topdog » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:59 pm

An interesting postal wrapper but not quite what it seems. This wrapper (folded sheet of writing paper) was indeed posted in Ennis in 1852 - an Ennis datestamp in blue, date unreadable, sits alongside the large piece oF light-coloured paper - but it must have been on 28th January 1852, the day the letter was written as red transit datestamps of Dublin (29th) and London (30th) can be seen. It was addressed to the London headquarters of the East India Company which was in fact located in Leadenhall Street in the City of London. The letter appears to have been written by a 'professional' letter writer as was often the custom. At first glance, looking at the Penny Red postage stamp cancelled with an oval-shape 466 obliterator of Liverpool Post office, I thought that it was a turned wrapper, i.e. where the incoming piece was turned inside out and used for the reply, but then I saw that the stamp was partly covering a diamond-shape 211 obliterator of Ennis (yes, the 'blur' to the left of the stamp), which together with the blue circular Ennis datestamp confirms the original location of despatch.

So why the 466 of Liverpool, when it never went to, from or near Liverpool? Well the simple answer is that someone in years past removed the original postage stamp for his or her collection and at a later date another person decided to add a Penny Red to try to make the wrapper look complete [That sir, is the not so boring bit!]

In the 1855 Griffiths Valuation, Eliza Moloney is the only Moloney in King's Bow off Mill Street (now Parnell street) She occupied a house with a not unsubstantial value of £1.5.0. from immediate lessor James Daly who in turn occupied a house nearby at 40 Mill Street with a (large) value of £9.0.0. from immediate lessor Anthony King. My understanding of the term 'Bow' is that it was derived from the layout where a house or building spanned the space between two, hence the image of an arch or bow. There are still a number of Bows in Ennis, including those off Parnell (ex Mill) Street. but King's Bow appears to have disappeared (I stand for correction)

My thoughts are similar to 'Jimbo's', in that Eliza of Ennis was perhaps the (widowed) sister of (unmarried) James Hynes. While the ages might well fit, it seems unlikely that Eliza of Ennis in 1855 dropped so far in the world as to become the 80 year old unmarried servant of Mary Hurley out in Ennistymon in 1901 (as per Census) Note the Ennistymon Eliza was unmarried and so Moloney was her family name.

Mention is given to enlisting in the East India Company and being paid to fight for the Empire during the Great Famine as an alternative to emigration to North America or Australia. Something that I had not given much thought to but as a postal historian I can confirm seeing many similar items to this from Clare and all other counties, especially the West, so perhaps that is a subject to be further developed.

The East India Company eventually came to rule large areas of India with its own private armies, exercising military power and assuming administrative functions However the Government of India Act 1858 led to the British Crown assuming direct control of India in the form of the new British Raj. The East India Company was dissolved in 1874

Jimbo
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Re: Eliza Moloney (Ennis) 1852 Batta Claim of J. Hynes (Beng

Post by Jimbo » Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:50 pm

Thank you very much. It is great to receive such an informative response from an esteemed postal historian who has literally co-authored the book on the history of the post offices of County Clare. Although I am somewhat disappointed to learn that my first purchase of County Clare postal history is a fraud of sorts, perhaps the issues you identified were reflected in the low auction price. This item changed hands twice this year, and with both auctions at only a fraction of a few other Ennis and Kilrush stamp covers (without letters) which are currently priced in the $300 to $400 range.

I learned quite a bit about the correct terminology used in postal history from your response. Could you please let me know what is the correct term for this specific postal wrapper? "Fraud" or "forgery" seems a bit harsh when the accompanying letter is genuine and only the stamp has been altered.

With regards to "King's Bow" off of Parnell Street in Ennis, it does appear to be quite obscure. However, I did find a funeral announcement from November 2013 on the Ennis parish website of a gentleman who had lived at 1 King Bow's Court, 63 Parnell Street.

Regarding the connection of Elizabeth Moloney to Joseph Hynes, not for the first time did I arrive at a conclusion without first looking at a map of County Clare. I agree with you that Ennistymon is an unlikely town for Elizabeth Moloney from Ennis to end up. Although the fact that she was unmarried in the 1901 census would not preclude the possibility that she was the fiancé who had planned to marry upon Joseph Hyne's return from India.

One question regarding the 1852 letter. If Elizabeth Moloney was indeed the sister of Joseph Hynes and a widow (of let's say John Moloney), would the letter identify her simply as "Elizabeth Moloney" or as "Mrs. John Moloney". Obituaries from the 19th century tend to take the latter approach.

After stating that the Irish appear to be invisible in the history books regarding India, references to such are now popping up in my reading. Have started "The Rogue's March" by Peter Stevens on the St Patrick's Battalion, 1846-1848. The "San Patricio" battalion fought on the side of Mexico during the Mexican War. The U.S. Captain "Lee found the Irish, German, and other European veterans enlisting in the army fine material for the coming fray. Perhaps because many Irishmen in the ranks had fought in Afghanistan, India, and Florida, because some of the older immigrant recruits had served with Wellington against Napoleon himself, Lee treated the foreigners with aloof respect."

Thanks again for taking the time in providing such interesting feedback.

James

topdog
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Re: Eliza Moloney (Ennis) 1852 Batta Claim of J. Hynes (Beng

Post by topdog » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:42 pm

Hi Jimbo

Thank you for your kind comments. My co-author of the book: An Introduction to the Post Offices of Co Clare was Dr John P Mackey of Blackrock, Co Dublin. His mother was Dorothy Mary (Lynch) Mackey b 1908 in Co Clare, the youngest daughter of James Lynch (State Solicitor) and Mary Josephine McMahon of 9 Bindon Street, Ennis. James Lynch had emigrated to Australia, settling at Brewarrina, NSW where he met his future wife Mary Josephine McMahon and they were married in 1897. They returned to Ireland in 1904. It is understood that James commenced his solicitor's practice in Bindon Street in 1905 (not 1906). He died on 19 February 1936 in Ennis, apparently at his residence 9 Bindon Street. John P Mackey passed away on 13 October 2001. The book was always just an Introduction, or starter, and the “main course” as John called it, would be at least 10 larger.

You say “This item changed hands twice this year, and with both auctions at only a fraction of a few other Ennis and Kilrush stamp covers (without letters) which are currently priced in the $300 to $400 range.” Caveat emptor. Apart from a Penny Black stamp on cover used from Ennis or Kilrush, a cover with stamp cancelled by the Ennis Spoon duplex cancel showing incorrect 112 (instead of 211) or a cover showing the rare KILRUSH SHIP LETTER marking, I cannot think of anything that might remotely approach those valuations. You might look to be put on the mailing list of MacDonnell Whyte of 102 Leinster Road Dublin 6 Ireland which holds substantial auctions of Irish material once or twice a year – or look on eBay

It is perhaps unfair to call your first purchase of County Clare postal history ”a fraud of sorts”. The letter is genuine and the stamp was just the means of showing that the transmission was pre-paid. As for what you might call it? - perhaps: Postal wrapper from Ennis to East India Company, London (with original cancelled postage stamp replaced)

With regards what happened to your Elizabeth Moloney, that is one that you will almost certainly never know. There is just no way of connecting an Elizabeth Moloney of Ennis in 1852 with an Elizabeth Moloney of Ennistymon in the 1901 Census. Elizabeth / Eliza /Betty were common first names and Moloney was one of the most common surnames in Co Clare.

As for the Irish being invisible in connection with wars, not so. It was once said that they have fought in substantial numbers in every European war for the last 400 years – and often on each side. This ‘fighting on both sides approach’ also applied to the American Civil War, the Mexican War and the South African Boer War. However the exceptions were WW1 and WW2 where strenuous efforts to get Irishmen to enlist in the German forces failed abysmally.
Check on: wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_military_diaspora to get a much fuller picture

Jimbo
Posts: 362
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Re: Eliza Moloney (Ennis) 1852 Batta Claim of J. Hynes (Beng

Post by Jimbo » Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:15 pm

Hi topdog,

Thank you very much for the further explanations on my East India Company stamp cover. And that was a fine tribute to the family of your co-author.

Below is a mourning cover sent from Kilrush in 1845 to a Mrs. Butler of Castlecrine at Six Mile Bridge currently listed as "buy it now" (ie not an auction) on ebay for US$ 325. There was one further item for US$ 400 but I can no longer find it. I was aware that these items were likely way over priced. But saw no harm if this encouraged a few readers to check out their attic for any old letters (and not to cut the old stamps from the letter!).

Evidence of the 1845 cover being over priced at US$ 325 is another "buy it now" item on ebay from a different London seller - see 2nd below. Coincidentally, this is another cover to Mrs. Butler of Castlecrine at Six Mile Bridge in the year 1850. This has been for sale at 40 British pounds for several months now. Prior to the Brexit it was US$ 59. Now discounted to US$ 52, but still no takers!
Attachments
IRELAND 1845 KILRUSH TO SIX MILE BRIDGE VIA ENNIS COVER.jpg
IRELAND 1845 KILRUSH TO SIX MILE BRIDGE VIA ENNIS COVER.jpg (58.13 KiB) Viewed 12844 times
ENNIS ‘211’ Irish Numeral 1850 SG8 1d Envelope to Six Mile Bridge.jpg
ENNIS ‘211’ Irish Numeral 1850 SG8 1d Envelope to Six Mile Bridge.jpg (68.53 KiB) Viewed 12844 times

Jimbo
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Re: Eliza Moloney (Ennis) 1852 Batta Claim of J. Hynes (Bengal)

Post by Jimbo » Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:24 am

Three years have passed since researching my East India Company stamp cover regarding the 1852 Batta claim of Elizabeth Molony of King's Bow, Mill Street, Ennis.

The recent forum discussion of the life and times of Michael Considine of the Ennis Trades had reminded me of this letter, so last month I revisited this thread. Perhaps new information has become available to shed light on the identities of both Elizabeth Molony and Joseph Hynes of the 2nd Bengal European Regiment?

On the irishgenealogy.ie website, there is a Elizabeth Molony whose death was recorded in the Ennis Registration District in 1866 at the age of 60 years, so born about 1806. Unfortunately, the actual death record is not yet available on-line to determine her marital status as well as the informant.

At the time of the Batta claim of 1852, Elizabeth Molony complained of poor health, so you get the impression that she was not a young woman in her 20's or 30's. I reckon Elizabeth Molony, who died in 1866 at the age of 60, is a pretty good fit.

The Batta claim letter actually made it sound like Elizabeth was on her death bed and quite impoverished, but this may have been exaggerated to create sympathy and speed up the payment. She didn't appear that poor on the 1855 Griffith Valuation. As was noted by topdog, "she occupied a house with a not unsubstantial value of £1.5.0. from immediate lessor James Daly who in turn occupied a house nearby at 40 Mill Street with a (large) value of £9.0.0. from immediate lessor Anthony King".

The Joseph Hynes of the 2nd Bengal European Regiment died in 1849 and was born around 1820. The theory that Elizabeth Moloney was a widowed sister is still plausible given this range of birth years. Hopefully, when the 1866 death record becomes available I can determine if she was indeed Elizabeth of King's Bow, Mill Street and if there are any other clues to her identity.

Out of curiosity, I had a look on eBay for the mourning cover sent from Kilrush in 1845 to Mrs. Butler of Castlecrine at Six Mile Bridge that was priced at US$ 325 (see above). Not too surprisingly, based upon the feedback by topdog, an expert stamp historian, this stamp cover has still not been sold. Perhaps due to the declining pound versus dollar, the British seller even upped the price to US$ 360.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/IRELAND-1845-K ... SwX5pcwMmQ

But while looking at the Ennis stamp covers available on eBay, I discovered a postcard from 1898 that was sent from Ennis to Belgium. It was an auction and I had the winning bid at $3.25 - much more in my price range. It finally arrived last week from the seller in Belgium and is quite interesting. Another day I'll create a separate thread to share with the forum this new addition to my stamp collection.

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