Genetic genealogy for surname info

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smcarberry
Posts: 1281
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:31 pm
Location: USA

Genetic genealogy for surname info

Post by smcarberry » Wed May 25, 2016 2:02 pm

I realize that genetic genealogy is a broad and largely scientific subject, into which I am just now dipping my toes. On a beginning level, it is possible to start picking up terms and concepts. I am doing so while awaiting the results of the Y-DNA test of my only living male Carberry relative, who consented despite not having the slightest interest. First lesson: ask even if it seems likely that you will get turned down. Second lesson: tests by FamilyTreeDNA go on sale during the week leading up to National DNA day, April 25th.

I have been listening to YouTube lectures delivered at various gen. conferences, on a channel dedicated to genetic genealogy set up by Maurice Gleeson. Some of those are designed for beginners. Additional websites and resources are liberally given out, so I went to the recommended ISOGG site where there are free DNA tests provided for certain surnames, such as the ones shown below. Interesting that there are some side comments provided on the surname project descriptions, such as for Hanrahan. Unfortunately, the ISOGG homepage has no obvious passthrough to the section listing the surnames involved in free testing, so here is the link:

http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Free_DNA_tests

Have fun with that,
Sharon Carberry
Driscoll DNA project, testing.jpg
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Halloran, Hanrahan DNA projects, ISOGG.jpg
Halloran, Hanrahan DNA projects, ISOGG.jpg (84.86 KiB) Viewed 28521 times

kate2013
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:26 pm

Re: Genetic genealogy for surname info

Post by kate2013 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:58 pm

Thanks for the link!

I took the generic Ancestry test earlier this year and the matches I have are fascinating (to me) but I haven't found the courage to contact them yet.

I'm hopefully going to get my brother to take the Y-DNA test later this year, which will open up a whole new area of research.

smcarberry
Posts: 1281
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:31 pm
Location: USA

Re: Genetic genealogy for surname info

Post by smcarberry » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:40 am

Hi, Kate,

Since I brought up this topic, I should provide some of my experience in contacting DNA matches, which I have been doing in the past year since my results came in from 23andMe. My views are not the last word on anything, but they may provide guidance.

1. I didn't chose 23andMe, as the test was a gift. I had been skeptical about the usefulness of DNA for my genealogical purposes, since my research has been extensive and productive. I have now contacted all people identified as second and third cousins. The effort has produced a new insight and was worth the time, although I think there is some risk involved as well. Proceed with caution.

2. The oddest observation is that it has been necessary to read up on all three major DNA-testing companies in order to learn more about each's limitations and best strengths. There is sufficient chatter on the Internet to do that. Each company's consumer base from which matches are made varies. I don't want to state statistics here, as I am not the source of those nor will they remain static over time. However, for finding cousins, I do believe that currently 23andMe is an excellent choice. Not only does that company clearly state the degree of relationship involved for each match and provide a safe means of communication with a match, but a consumer's DNA sample is tested in every way possible for the involved gender. However, the company website doesn't tell you that, nor is a match identified as discovered via a particular type of DNA test (autosomal, mitochondrial, Y-DNA, or X-DNA). You just get a huge list of cousins, and it is up to you to figure out how each might be related to you, from either paternal or maternal side.

3. As with traditional genealogy, an identified cousin is not necessarily a person to trust with data about yourself which is very personal and must remain private. I have done all communications via the company's website, and I have not had an obnoxious or overly inquisitive response. In fact, more often than not, I have had no response at all, and that includes the one person identified as a second cousin (who could also be a first cousin once removed). It is frustrating to know that such a person was motivated enough to do the test and not interested in learning about his/her family. Maybe that person likewise got the test as a gift.

4. The quickest responses have come from adoptees, who lack enough information to track down the relationship. A similar futility exists with third and fourth cousins, in that the common ancestor likely is too far back in time to match your research, however extensive. Also, the stated cousin relationship may be a false positive, because that is the nature of DNA in its current state, at the lower levels of marker analysis that most people order.

5. One third cousin provided the biggest insight derived from any of my DNA testing, which includes Y-DNA analysis done by a first cousin. The cousin list showed his surname, which I recognized. His response provided New Jersey as his residence, and the pieces of the puzzle fell into place immediately because I had already done the research. He stated futility in doing family history, and I knew why, as the surname has multiple misspellings in old records. He now has all of his family's U.S. history and contact information for people researching the ancestral country. I now realize how significant New Jersey has been for my maternal side, because cousins of different surnames in the same time period born in the same original U.S. place likewise relocated to northern New Jersey as of 1910.

6. My cousin who did the Y-DNA test expressed difficulty using the FamilyTreeDNA (FTDNA) website to learn the significance of his results. I tried as well. I had to learn technical terminology so it is not as consumer-friendly as 23andMe, but the consumer can come away more informed about the test result, with confidence in the provided analysis. I am not encouraging my cousin to contact the people identified as exact matches, since those are related to only a 25-marker analysis and those people are in countries indicating a common ancestor too far back in time to document. There was not a single match made in the U.S. or Ireland, which I believe indicates too few tests done to date. However, the DNA is now preserved and can be tested beyond the 37-marker level when a potential cousin is identified in the future.

7. Please read your testing company's disclosure of how accessible your test results are beyond yourself. When provided an individual account, you need to review the privacy settings that you can change, which impacts what other consumers can see about you. Having paid for my cousin's test, I was given log-in credentials for the account that has his name on it; I immediately changed the settings to be ultra private. Also, having done Internet reading on that company, I disclosed to my cousin that certain generic information would likely end up in the database of a pharmaceutical company per contract with the testing company. 23AndMe doesn't do that automatically, but it highly encourages a level of sharing which leads to that. Before doing a test, think about how directly you want to advance medical knowledge via the pharmaceutical industry.

I am interested in hearing the results and experiences of anyone else, which I hope are within the purview of the Forum. If not, please use a private message provided on this site.

Sharon Carberry
USA

Kurt in S.A.
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:06 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Genetic genealogy for surname info

Post by Kurt in S.A. » Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:56 pm

I've had similar experiences as Sharon. I've had tests performed by FamilyTreeDNA as well as the Ancestry product. I'm on a direct male line to my paternal immigrant from Germany but to date have not found any useful links of information. On the Ireland side, my lineage goes through my mother, but after that it is direct male to the Irish immigrant...I understand that muddies the water a bit.

For Ancestry, they indicate what the level of match is...immediate family (my sister), 2nd cousin, 3rd cousin, distant cousin (5th-8th), etc. For matches, and if the other person has a family tree entered on the site, you can view their family tree and maybe glean some information. For me so far, I've not found any significant new piece of information when viewing the other trees. I guess because of the distance in the connection and the limited people included in the trees, it's hard to figure out how the connection is made. There might be an unusual surname that suggests a relationship, but not knowing all members of a family from the early 1800s makes it difficult to see where the relationship is.

I have noticed on Ancestry that many, many matches for me point to someone who has no family tree entered on the site. That does no one any good in my opinion. I can't peruse their family tree looking for connections...if they haven't developed their own tree even offline, looking at my tree does them no good. I have contacted several closer connections through the sites communication tool and as Sharon has said, it's interesting the lack of interest people have. Why take the test if you're not willing to share information?

One thing that disappoints me about the DNA testing is the pooling of results in databases with little if any sharing between them. I've been disappointed in the number of closer contacts to date. I suspect that other distant branches of my Irish and German families remained in those countries. If I could get some kind of match to someone in those branches, I could learn more information. I'm not sure what global the DNA testing products are. I suspect that Europe does testing with "their" products and the US tends toward products here. The different databases prevents making those connections. It's almost like I'll have to find the European product of choice and invest in a test there. I have a small piece of info that says one of my Brown relatives went from Ireland went to Australia...I guess I'll have to find the Australian product for any hope of finding matches there.

Kurt

kate2013
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:26 pm

Re: Genetic genealogy for surname info

Post by kate2013 » Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:57 pm

Thank you for the advice Sharon, it's much appreciated, especially about safety and privacy. I find this aspect of genealogy fascinating. Please stop me if I start to bore anyone.

I also entered my Ancestry results into GedMatch, which opened a whole new world to me as the Ancestry information is so limited.

From Ancestry I got : Europe 100%


Ireland 89%

Trace Regions 11%

Scandinavia 6%

Great Britain 3%

Europe West 1%

Iberian Peninsula < 1%

My brothers and I were born in the UK, the first generation born outside Ireland in the recent past. So we were quite excited and surprised to see the Scandinavian result. My brother joked that we are more Scandinavian than English :D

The Ancestry DNA matches I have are mostly 4th- 5th cousins. Although, I just checked and I have new match who is a 3rd cousin!

The Gedmatch tools are amazing, and after I replied to you (above) I had a match contact me from there and we're looking for matches in County Clare and Tipperary.

The good thing about Ancestry is you can search your matches for surnames or places. My stronger matches seem to include a lot of Scandinavian names.

Kurt, I think a lot of people who have never thought of researching their family tree are getting DNA tests as gifts, and that's why there are so many without trees. It is frustrating, but hopefully they will want to know more and start entering their information ;)

smcarberry
Posts: 1281
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:31 pm
Location: USA

Re: Genetic genealogy for surname info

Post by smcarberry » Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:08 pm

Thanks for sharing your experience. Both my autosomal and my Carberry cousin's paternal-side results show Scandinavian ancestors, over which I have puzzled. Plus, his results also indicate someone in Scotland. That actually applies to me as well, but the 2 companies providing results do so in different ways. I am currently of the opinion that these two non-Irish origins are so far back in time that no historical data will ever confirm it. For my autosomal results (covering all my ancestry), my company has these percentages for what would be my Western European ancestors (I have an Eastern European grandmother):
Northwestern Europe 61.8%
British & Irish. 11.0
French & German. 8.8
Scandinavian. 1.6

The confidence level for accuracy is only 70%, likely because many of the test results done to date are only analyzing 25 markers, just not enough. However, my own gen. research has confirmed all of my results except for the Scandinavian aspect. The most conservative analysis, also provided by my company, is European 99.1%, with no Scandinavian, French/German at 2.2%, and British/Irish at .8%.

I think the bottom line is that a lot more European people, particularly in Ireland, need to have tests done at the 37-marker level, if not more.

Sharon C.

kate2013
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:26 pm

Re: Genetic genealogy for surname info

Post by kate2013 » Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:36 pm

Agree. ;)

You have a more interesting profile than me :)

Have you tried GedMatch?

smcarberry
Posts: 1281
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:31 pm
Location: USA

Re: Genetic genealogy for surname info

Post by smcarberry » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:30 pm

I looked into Gedmatch for the sake of my Carberry cousin, because I was looking for direct matches for the paternal line. If I remember correctly, Gedmatch doesn't handle Y-DNA results, only autosomal, which is for all ancestry. I already have enough matches for my autosomal, as described earlier in this string of postings. I am always the most knowledgeable about family history, and I prefer to continue traditional research rather than try to teach it to cousins who are not going to help with it.

However, so that I don't end on a negative note, it is my extreme joy to have been provided an Australian Death Index listing for my Clare family's Michael Carberry, whom I knew went there in 1858 but who then disappeared. Each Michael that I have tracked there ended up with an obituary stating an origin not Clare. I need only order online a full death record to see if he had children, and then the chase is on for living descendants. Many thanks to Forum member Kerry Barlow for that.

Sharon C.

Kurt in S.A.
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:06 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Genetic genealogy for surname info

Post by Kurt in S.A. » Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:00 pm

So, any thoughts on other testing sites in other parts of the world? As I mentioned, I have my tests done and I'm on a direct male line to my German immigrant from the 1850s. I've also had DNA tested for another male relative who is a direct male line to our Irish immigrant from 1850. But to date, I've not found any hint of connection with anyone. I might be expecting too much, but I feel that some of those distant relatives who remained in their home countries are contained in other databases. And with no database sharing, I'm a bit blind to what those connections might be.

Kurt

Kurt in S.A.
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:06 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Genetic genealogy for surname info

Post by Kurt in S.A. » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:00 am

I ran across another DNA matching site at DNAgedcom.com. Anyone hear about it or try it? It's a paid site it appears. The previously mentioned gedmatch.com is free.

Kurt

smcarberry
Posts: 1281
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:31 pm
Location: USA

Re: Genetic genealogy for surname info

Post by smcarberry » Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:20 pm

Sorry to say that I already looked into DNAgedcom and again their software is set up for only autosomal.

Back to your earlier question on what other testing companies might be of help in finding matches to your European lines: if there were any on the level of Ancestry.com. FTDNA, and 23andMe, they would be out there advertising. From having looked into this for the sake of my Polish cousin, I know there is a German company offering the Y-DNA test in Poland, but I didn't save a reference to it. There are also a few labs in Poland doing paternity tests using DNA. So far, my impression is that they don't view genetic genealogy as big business for them. My Polish cousin rejects the idea that the expense is worth it, and I have heard that said about many others in that part of the world. Consumer demand will have to fuel corporate development equal to what the Big 3 U.S.-based companies are offering. Even if the German company is already producing test results for its German customers, that doesn't mean that the company embraces spending money on software to broadcast the results beyond each individual customer, or the legal measures to protect the company against claimed breaches of privacy. However, that may be just what is happening right now, and the future may yield something better for our interests.

SMC

smcarberry
Posts: 1281
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:31 pm
Location: USA

Re: Genetic genealogy for surname info

Post by smcarberry » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:38 am

Kurt,

I suppose I have the answer to your question on a free facility to compare YDNA results from various testing companies, and that is a Search hosted by FamilyTreeDNA (FTDNA). Again the issue is that not enough customers of the other companies are using it yet. I show below what appears so far on YSearch for my French line, which is the only one of my various lines with any participants as yet. All three participants have done their testing with FTDNA.

Here is the link to a thorough review of making DNA comparisons using the current facilities, written so that people can accurately confirm relationships that they want to post on WikiTree:

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/DNA_Confirmation

Hope that helps. I am only a beginner in genetic genealogy, so someone else out there may have better guidance to offer. There are credentialed consultants providing comparison/triangulation services for a fee, but you need to view their credentials and work samples to separate out the real experts from those of the would-be type. Perhaps one of those people has a question section on their website so that you can ask a question and receive an authoritative response without charge.

SMC
Marceau Y-DNA, specifically.jpg
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