Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

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Jimbo
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by Jimbo » Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:20 pm

Was at the public library on Saturday, and had a look for shipping records for the Daniel Quinlivan family. Was easy to find - see below screenshot.

The entire Daniel Quinlivan family who were listed in the 1885 Minnesota census are on the shipping record of the Ship Baltic arriving in the USA on 22 Sept 1880 (the other date on the record is 23 July 1880). There was one extra son "Wm" transcribed as "William" age 15. He was not with the family in the 1885 census and is missing from any Minnesota records.

Edward was born in 1857 according to his passport application in 1890, so would have been 23 years when arriving in 1880. He said he left Queenstown on or about 18 Sept 1880 which could have been the same timing as the Daniel Quinlivan family on the Baltic. His passport application lists the ship he arrived in the USA, but it is difficult to read and looks like it starts with an "E". Not able to make out the word "Baltic" from the scribble.

Paddy, although there are discrepancies in age and ship name, might be a slight possibility that the name of the younger Edward Quinlivan in St. Paul was actually "William Edward"?

Given the year 1880 when the Quinlivans arrived and that they became farmers in western Minnesota, there is a good chance that the family was part of the Catholic colonization efforts in Minnesota. This program was sponsored by Bishop Ireland of St. Paul and their goal was to bring destitute Irish families from the west of Ireland to the farm lands of western Minnesota.

http://collections.mnhs.org/MNHistoryMa ... 05-213.pdf

Above is a link to an interesting article "Bishop Ireland's Connemara Experiment" by Father James P. Shannon on the Minnesota Historical Society website. The focus of the article is on a group from Galway which was a failure, but thousands of other settlers were successful. A quote from the article: "In 1879 the Catholic Colonization Bureau of St. Paul, the organization administering [Bishop] Ireland's settlement project, had secured an option on fifty thousand acres of the St. Paul and Pacific Railroad's land grant in Big Stone and Traverse counties..." Traverse County is where Daniel Quinlivan had his farm in the 1885 census. He was still there in the 1920 census so must have had better luck than the group from Galway.

Perhaps the Edward Quinlivan of St. Paul listed on the Mary Grogan probate records is also somehow associated with the same Catholic colonization efforts in Minnesota.
Attachments
Daniel Quinlivan family on Ship Baltic from Queenstown 1880.jpg
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pwaldron
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by pwaldron » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:28 pm

Mary appears to be Daniel's second wife. These look like the birth of the 15 month old infant on the passenger list:
https://familysearch.org/search/collect ... id=1584963

This looks like the parents' marriage:

Ireland, Civil Registration Marriages Index, 1845-1958
Name: Daniel Quinlivan
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1878
Registration district: Ennis
Volume: 4
Page Number: 245
FHL Film Number: 101253
Name: Mary Dwyer
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1878
Registration district: Ennis
Volume: 4
Page Number: 245
FHL Film Number: 101253

The marriage took place in Ennis parish on 8 Jan 1878:
http://www.ennisparish.com/genealogy/
Quinlivan Dan Mary Dwyer 08/01/1878

I may have to order the marriage certificate to confirm whether Daniel was a widower and discover who his father was.

The first wife appears to have been Ellen Barry:

https://familysearch.org/search/collect ... id=1584963

If so, Daniel clearly moved around the country quite a bit.

rootsireland.ie has the following children with parents matching d quinlivan and barry:

Anne (1863), William (1865), James (1867), John (1869), all in Tipperary; and Patrick (1872) and Mary (1873), both in Louth.

There are three Ancestry public member trees confirming that Ellen Barry's husband remarried and died in Minnesota. None names Daniel's parents. One cites this as the source for his death:

Minnesota, Death Index, 1908-2002
Name: Daniel Quinlivan
Death Date: 26 Jul 1920
Death County: Traverse
State File Number: 016202
Certificate Number: 016202
Certificate Year: 1920
Record Number: 308260

There appears to have been a son Daniel junior who died in Australia.

pwaldron
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by pwaldron » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:12 pm

Less than a week after I first heard of "Bishop Ireland's Connemara Experiment" from Jimbo above, it was the subject of the "On This Day" item on Drivetime on RTÉ Radio 1 this evening. Listen back here:
http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplay ... %3A0%3A%3A

Jimbo
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by Jimbo » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:17 pm

Interesting radio show, now Bishop John Ireland's name will start to pop up everywhere!

From the St. Paul Union Advocate newspaper of 8 August 1913: ..."Whereas, John Ireland, of the City of St. Paul and State of Minnesota, has delivered to the Probate Court of the County of Ramsey an instrument in writing purporting to be the Last Will and Testament of Edward Quinlivan, late of Ramsey County, Minnesota, decedent, and filed therewith his petition to said Probate Court, praying that said instrument may be proved and admitted to probate, and that Letters of Administration with the will annexed be granted thereon to John. P. O'Connor.

The radio segment mentioned how Bishop John Ireland was a progressive, so interesting that the probate announcement was in the Union Advocate. Transcriptions are digitized and free for this newspaper, follow this link, and scroll way down to the St. Paul Union Advocate and then search for Quinlivan:

http://www.theancestorhunt.com/blog/min ... fXICpcYOSp

From the St. Paul city directory listing for Calvary Cemetery, John P. O'Connor appears to have been Edward Quinlivan's boss - see below screenshot.

This John P. O'Connor was born in County Limerick. Wonder if there could be some link between J.P. O'Connor with the Quinlivan family which would lead Edward Quinlivan to immigrate to St. Paul at the age of 54? Most counties in America, particularly in the Midwest, have published large volumes entitled "X County Past & Present" - a who's who of the important people of the county. The personal descriptions are fairly boilerplate and lead to exaggeration. Here is the biography (or autobiography?) for John P. O'Connor from "Past and present of St. Paul, Minnesota; being a relation of the progressive history of the capital city of Minnesota from the earliest historical times down to the present day. Together with an exposition of the lives of the makers of history":
JOHN P. O'Connor

John P. O'Connor, private secretary to Archbishop John Ireland, was born July 4, 1852, at Bally Brood House in County Limerick, Ireland. A few months later the family removed to North Kerry and the son John acquired his education in national and private schools of that locality. In early life he followed his father's profession of civil engineering and in 1871, when a young man of nineteen years, came to the United States. He spent one year at Villanova College near Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and in 1878 went to South America with a railroad construction party, working up the Madeira river, a branch of the Amazon. The year 1879 witnessed his arrival in Minnesota. He was married January 12. 1881, and since that time has been private secretary to Archbishop John Ireland, residing at Merriam Park, St. Paul. In this capacity he has acted as secretary of the Catholic Colonization Bureau and is doing excellent work along that line.

He married Miss Olive Robinson, a daughter of Eli Robinson, of Hastings, Minnesota, a prominent attorney of St Paul in an early day. Mrs. O'Connor was born in Wisconsin and was reared in Hastings. They have four sons and a daughter: Robert Joseph, a civil engineer on the Great Northern Railroad; Harry F., connected with the advertising department of the St. Paul News ; Olive, at home, and John and Vincent, who are also under the parental roof.

In his political views Mr. O'Connor is a liberal democrat and a protectionist. Socially he is connected with the Knights of Columbus. He has a nice home at Merriam Park and is a gentleman of social, cordial nature. He and his family are well known socially and the hospitality of many of the best homes of the locality is freely accorded them, Mr. O'Connor has met with fair success in his business career and is a self-made man, owing his advancement entirely to his personal efforts.
Paddy, despite the common name perhaps you can find his birth record on rootsireland given the biography details? It states that he was born on the Fourth of July, but this means that he was a patriotic American and most likely not his actual birth date. Also, are there any links of the O'Connor family to Ballybrood House in Limerick or is this an exaggeration? Would be interesting to see what connections John P. O'Connor had to the Quinlivans or other Catholic hierarchy to get his position as private secretary to Archbishop Ireland. Perhaps I am being cynical, but the last sentence of his biography points to a likely family connection: Mr. O'Connor "is a self-made man, owing his advancement entirely to his personal efforts".
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1913 St Paul City Directory Cavalry Cemetery.jpg
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pwaldron
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by pwaldron » Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:49 am

Lewis's Topography says that Ballybrood civil parish is part of the Catholic parish of Caherconlish.

There is a John Connor in the right month and year and parish at
http://limerick.rootsireland.ie/view_de ... ick&page=1
Church Baptism Record
Name: John Connor Date of Birth:
Date of Baptism: 21-Jul-1852
Address: ? Parish/District: CAHERCONLISH
Gender: Unknown County Co. Limerick
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: Henry Connor Mother: Catherine Walsh
Occupation:
Sponsor 1 /
Informant 1: Ann Walsh Sponsor 2 /
Informant 2: N. L

This John had a younger brother Henry baptised in the same parish:

http://limerick.rootsireland.ie/view_de ... ick&page=1
Church Baptism Record
Name: Henry Connor Date of Birth:
Date of Baptism: 05-May-1854
Address: ? Parish/District: CAHERCONLISH
Gender: Unknown County Co. Limerick
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: Henry Connor Mother: Catherine Walsh
Occupation:
Sponsor 1 /
Informant 1: Mgt Mulaneshall Sponsor 2 /
Informant 2: Hen Walsh

limerick.rootsireland.ie doesn't have the parents' marriage.

But irishgenealogy.ie has two daughters, one older than the brothers and the other younger, both baptised in Kerry:
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... geSize=100

Griffith's Valuation has a Henry O'Connor in Tinnahally townland in Killorglin parish (1 Mar 1853).

There is a dubious user-submitted O'Connor family tree at
http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/33724177 ... 8524152046
which has different parents for John O'Connor of MN - John J O'Connor (died in Listowel) and Sarah Walsh (born in Listowel).

There was a couple named John O'Connor and Sara Walsh who married in Ballybunion on 23 Feb 1857 and had a son John jr. baptised in Castleisland on 22 May 1861; see
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... geSize=100

I don't see any obvious connection between the Quinlivans and either the Castleisland or Caherconlish O'Connor families.

Linda Klassen-Brown
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by Linda Klassen-Brown » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:44 am

Searched the Minnesota death register for any Edward who died in 1913 and was born between 1830 and 1840, and found Edward transcribed incorrectly as Qumlivan and Grunlivan:

Hi Paddy

I know this thread is a little old and I may be providing info you already have, but only recently was contacted by an Australian Quinlivan connection who responded to a post i put on another site - she writes:

I would like to comment on Linda’s post, my great grand uncle Edward Quinlivan was Susan Mcdonnell nee Quinlivan’s cousin, his brother Patrick Francis Neville Quinlivan was my Great Grandfather, they were both nephews of Susan’s father Edmund Quinlivan who died in 1850, the year Susan was born.
My GG Patrick Francis emigrated to Australia, South Australia and Victoria, he had 16 children to two wives, I descend from his eldest son Summerland Quinlivan.
I know that Edward married Elizabeth Johnstone, and that her brother John died at their house in Cecil Street Limerick in 1881, also that John Johnstone lived in Australia for a time and was a Lieutenant with the Ballarat Rangers, Volunteer Rifles, if you Google Ballarat Rangers Officers Parade 1869, there is a group photo of the men in uniform, I believe John Johnstone is 3rd from the left, going by the writing that was on the back of the photo, he has a full beard. he also spent time in the Queensland diggings in 1868 and sent a report back to Ballarat.
I have recently found out that Edward and Elizabeth emigrated to St Paul, Minnesota in 1886 and he was working as a Clerk for the Catholic Calvary Cemetery, it seems Elizabeth died in 1891, Edward went back to Ireland in 1906 for a visit after his sister Mary Grogan nee Quinlivan died in Kilrush the year before, 1905 , he left the administration of her estate to one of his cousins, The Rev Laurence Browne and returned to St Paul, he died in there in 1913, the executer of Edward’s will was the Archbishop of St Paul, John Ireland, he declined and his Secretary John P O’conner dealt with it, the only beneficiary was a Susette McDonnell C/O Rough Rider Hotel Medora, North Dakota.
I have found that Edward’s cousin Susan McDonnell nee Quinlivan was living in St Paul, Minnesota in 1915, her son George McDonnell aged 24, born in 1891, single, arrived at Ellis Island, Port of NewYork, on the 9th of September 1915, last permanent residence, Broadford, name of friend or relative in country from which emigrant came, Uncle, John McDonnell, Broadford, Clare.
Final destination, Mother, Susan McDonnell, 152 West George Street, St Paul, Minnesota, this information is from Emigrants from Bradford through Ellis Island.
I believe Edward had a child with Elizabeth Johnstone, I don’t know if Susette was that child or was she Edward’s cousin Susan and there was a mistake in the spelling of the name.

Linda

Jimbo
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by Jimbo » Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:13 pm

Was reading the News from Ireland this morning and the name Rev. L.J. Browne caught my eye in the below funeral report for Mrs. Butler from the Irish World (NY) of 10 August 1901. In the chief mourners section he is listed as what appears to be a brother of the deceased, but perhaps the Rev. Browne was listed first only out of respect? After listing the brothers, then nephews, there are four men (including two more Brownes) whose connection to Mrs. Griffin is not clear.
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Irish World (NY) 10 August 1901 Mrs Butler Obituary.jpg
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mhuisking
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by mhuisking » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:29 am

Hi,
I know this thread hasn't been active for a while, but thought I'd post some photos that you all might find interesting. My name is MIchael Huisking and I live in Penryn, California. I am the great grandson of Matilda Quinlivan of St. Paul, Minnesota (d. 1954) referenced on the 2nd page of this thread. Her husband was the younger Edward Quinlivan (d. 1941) also referenced on the 2nd page of this thread. Edward was a carpenter, and made a beautiful redwood and copper chest/trunk with the family crest painted inside of the lid. (See attached)

I also have a picture of him (with his place of birth listed as "County Cork" although most other documentation that I have seen lists "Limerick." I'll post that in another message.

mhuisking
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by mhuisking » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:44 am

Hello again,

The files that I attached to the previous message didn't upload, so here is a link to the images on the Flickr file sharing site:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mick_huis ... 6191199981

Warm regards,
Michael Huisking

Jimbo
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by Jimbo » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:45 am

Hi Michael,

Great photos for Edward Quinlivan, the carpenter. And interesting bird carved between his E.Q. initials on the family crest on the wooden box. These postings were awhile back and I had to confirm that the "younger" Edward Quinlivan was indeed the Edward who got the US passport in 1890:
Edward was born in 1857 according to his passport application in 1890, so would have been 23 years when arriving in 1880. He said he left Queenstown on or about 18 Sept 1880 which could have been the same timing as the Daniel Quinlivan family on the Baltic. His passport application lists the ship he arrived in the USA, but it is difficult to read and looks like it starts with an "E". Not able to make out the word "Baltic" from the scribble.
I'm glad you posted as I've been meaning to follow up on this thread but never got around to it. It was always rather annoying that an Irish immigrant provided the exact ship that he arrived in and still could not be found on a passenger listing, so I had investigated this further in 2015.

First of all, the above quote should state that Edward arrived in New York on or about 18 Sept 1880; the application does not state that he left Queenstown on that date. The exact dates are very important in solving this mystery.

The ship name clearly started with an "E", so I had searched for a ship with "E??????", and discovered the only ship arriving in New York in 1880 meeting that criteria was the "Ethiopia". And looking again at his passport application (see page two), it clearly states Ethiopia.

The "Ethiopia" arrived in New York on 13 September 1880 and also on 18 October 1880. Dates are both a bit off from Edward's application, but more importantly there was no name even close to "Quinlivan" on these passenger listings. It was easy to check as many Germans, Scandinavians, and Scots traveling on these ships, with only a page or two of Irish.

I then just searched for any Quinlivan arriving in New York within a few years of 1880. Bingo! "Mr. E. Quinlivan", age 26, Irish, arrived in New York on the Arizona on 19 September 1881. That would certainly be "about 18th September", but an entire year off from his passport application. On the 1900 Census, Edward Quinlivan did state that he had arrived in America in 1881. My theory on this was that perhaps he fudged the 1890 passport application so that he was in the USA for 10 years?

Fortunately, prior to posting this explanation, only minutes ago, I had a second look at this 1881 passenger listing. The transcription on ancestry.com of "Mr. E. Quinlivan" appears to be incorrect, as "Mr" is a "wife" and "female" traveling with a 4 year old child by the name of "John Quinlivan". I had initially thought E. Quinlivan (a man) might be traveling with his younger brother? But taking another look, "Mrs E. Quinlivan" and her 4 year old son were traveling "cabin" class, and appear to be a bit wealthier than the Daniel Quinlivan family who traveled to America steerage class on the Baltic. There appears to be no connection to the Quinlivans in Minnesota.

Here is the 1881 passenger listing on FamilySearch that ancestry has transcribed as "Mr. E. Quinlivan":
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... print=true

And for the record, the Daniel Quinlivan family members appear to have each incorrectly stated their ages by about 5 years on the 1880 passenger listing, except for the baby daughter Ellen. I have no theory on this one.

Per the 1880 Baltic arriving in New York: Daniel (age 40), Mary (35), William (15), James (7), John (6), Pat (4), Mary (3), Ellen (infant, 10 months).

Per the 1885 Minnesota Census: Daniel (50), Mary A (45), James (18), John (15), Pat (13), Mary (11), Ellen (5, born in Ireland), Marguerite (4, born in Dakota Territory). The ages of these children match the Irish baptism records found by Paddy.

Is it any wonder that it can be so difficult to find your ancestors on the passenger listings. The arrival of your Edward Quinlivan, which I was so confident I had solved back in 2015, still remains a mystery.

mhuisking
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by mhuisking » Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:06 am

Dear Jimbo,
Thank you for your response and I'm so sorry for the delay in my reply (I had lost my credentaials to this board and just found them). I really appreciate your time!

Sincerely,
Michael Huisking
Penryn, California USA

mgallery
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by mgallery » Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:59 am

Rev Laurence Browne was one of the wards for Miss Ann Butler of Ballylin after her father Colonel Butler died. I doubt he was an uncle or it would have been said in the courtcase over her marriage to a Belgian gentleman in 1907 Evening herald 6 May. He was a joint guardian with Sir Augustine Baker

Jimbo
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by Jimbo » Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:52 am

Hi Margaret, there is a quite a hodge podge of topics on this thread, but I believe your posting relates to the obituary of Mrs. Butler of Ballyline published in the Irish World in 1901. The Anne Butler who married the Belgian in 1907 appears not to be the daughter, but the granddaughter of Colonel Augustine Butler (died prior to 1884 marriage of son Theobald) and Catherine Stacpoole.

The Butler and Stacpoole marriage on 20 July 1854 was Church of Ireland, so a civil marriage record is available online. Augustine Butler was the son of Theobald Butler of Ballyline. There are many "Theobald Butlers" in Ireland, descendants of a famous Toby Butler (1650 - 1720).

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 431957.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theobald_ ... r-general)

Mary Griffy, spinster, daughter of John Griffy (living), a "herd", of Cahir___?, married Theobald Butler, bachelor, landlord, gentleman, of Ballyline, son of Augustine Bulter (deceased) on 4 June 1884. The Catholic marriage was at Ballyline House "by special [unclear, permission?]" by the Rev. Timothy Hogan. Witnesses John Griffy and Ellen Barry. "Mary Griffy" was transcribed as "Mary Crowe" (the bride in the next marriage) in error by irishgenealogy (correction submitted):
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 982970.pdf

Theobald Butler and Mary Griffy of Ballyline were the parents of two daughters: Mary Kate Butler on 19 January 1885; and Anne Butler on 16 January 1886 — who married the Belgian in 1907?? The informant of the birth record for Anne Butler was her uncle Patt Griffy of Ballyline on 8 July 1886. The tardiness of the registration, and the fact that her uncle was the informant, can be explained by the death of her father Theobald Butler on 11 February 1886, age 30, informant brother-in-law Patt Griffy of Bernafincha (sp?).

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 791574.pdf
DEATH OF MR THEOBALD BUTLER, J.P.
(FROM OUR CORRESPONDENT)
ENNIS, FRIDAY

The death of the above-named respected gentleman took place last night at his residence, Ballyline, Crusheen, in the 30th year of his age. Deceased was the only surviving son and heir of the late Colonel Augustine Butler, J.P., D.L., lilneal descendant of the distinguished Catholic lawyer, Sir Toby Butler, Bart. At his father's death about three years ago, he was left sole possessor of an estate worth £4,000. Two years after his father's death he married the daughter of his herdsman Miss Maryanne Griffy, a prepossessing young woman. He has left issue two daughters, and died intestate, so that the Butler estate now passes over to the family of his herdsman. Deceased was a most benevolent man. All the sympathy of his kind heart was directed to promote the welfare of his tenants. For the past two years he gave them an abatement of 30 percent on the rents under Griffith's valuation, and a few days before he took ill he expressed his intention to wipe off all arrears due by them. He died fortified by the rites of the Catholic Church, and his remains will be interred on Monday at one o'clock in the family burial ground of the island church, Crusheen.

The Irish Times, Dublin, 13 February 1886, page 3
In the 1901 census, a 34 year old Mary Anne Butler was recorded as a widow and "relative" of the Rev. Laurence John Brown (age 50). They are living at Ballard, Killard; the obituary from August 1901 in the Irish World newspaper stated "Baltard House".
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... d/1080034/

Sheila was able to sort how Mary Anne Butler was a "relative" to Father Browne (mother was a Quinlivan) on this related thread:
Paddy, you noted that Mary Anne Butler, the widow of Theobald Butler, of Ballyline House, was staying at Fr. Browne’s house on the night of the 1901 census. You ask if Fr. Browne could have been related to her. I see from the Crusheen baptism records (on this web-site, under Research support – Links to Genealogical Services) that Mary Anne’s brother, John Griffey, was married to Lizzy Browne.
http://www.ourlibrary.ca/phpbb2/viewtop ... 1697&hilit
The Crusheen baptism records go from 1860 to 1880. There is a John Griffey and Honora Walsh with five children recorded. But I cannot find a Lizzy Browne in the Crusheen baptism records. Sheila, am I looking in the wrong place?

Regarding the 1901 obituary in the Irish World, I cannot find the civil death record for this Mrs. Butler. Still not sure how the final chief mourners listed, "Michael McNamara, P. Browne, P. Tierney, and J. Browne" would be related. Perhaps cousins?

Sduddy
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by Sduddy » Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:50 am

Hi Jimbo

You ask about the Crusheen parish record of the marriage of John Griffy and Lizzy Brown. At the time that I was writing, a transcription of the Crusheen baptisms was available under Research Support – Links to Genealogical Services, but was afterwards removed. That transcription was by Gerry Kennedy, who, sadly, died this year, and it went from 1860 right up to 1909. It showed the baptisms of several of the children of John Griffey and Elizabeth Browne (Caheraphuca/Caherafooka).
The marriage of John Griffin (“Griffey” and “Griffin” seem to have been interchangeable) and Elizabeth took place in Limerick on 29 Apr 1893: John Griffin, Farmer, Ballyline, Co. Clare, son of James Griffin, Farmer, to Elizabeth Browne, Killard, Co. Clare, daughter of Patrick Browne, Auctioneer, in Sarcred Heart chapel, Limerick; witnesses: William Browne, Louisa Russell; celebrant: Laurence Browne, P.P. Doonbeg, Co. Clare: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 862558.pdf
That record gives John’s father's occupation as Farmer, but Mary Anne’s marriage to Theobald Butler gives it as Herd: 4 Jun 1884:
Marriage of Theobald Butler, Landlord and Gentleman, Ballyline, son of Augustine Butler, deceased, Landlord and Gentleman, to Mary Griffy, Caherapuka (I think), daughter of John [I believe that this “John” should be James] Griffy, living, Herd; witnesses: John Griffy, Ellen Barry: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 982970.pdf

Why do I think that John should be James? Well, quite recently, someone who believed that he was related to Mary Anne asked me to help him with his family tree, and, in the course of that work, I found that the marriage record of each of five siblings of Mary Anne gave the father’s name as James.

Mary Anne and most of her siblings were born before the only surviving Crusheen parish register was opened in 1860, so it’s impossible to say how many siblings she had. Only the baptism of her sister, Susan, was recorded:
11 Mar 1860: Susan of James Griffy and Anne Halloran, Cahirapooka; sponsors: Patrick Flanagan, Anne Millon/Miller: https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls ... 4/mode/1up

James Griffey had a long life. He died at Susan’s house in 1894, aged 85: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 694931.pdf. At that time Susan was Susan Barry - the Michael McNamara, who is one of the chief mourners at the funeral of Mary Anne Butler, is Susan’s second husband.
Griffith’s Valuation of Caheraphuca, Inchicronan, describes Lot 8a as a Herd’s house, office, & land. I suspect that the herd was James Griffey/Griffin. Lot 8b is occupied by Anne Griffin. James was also a farmer: Mary Anne’s marriage record is the only one that describes him as Herd. In all of the other marriage records his occupation is Farmer.

The Freeman’s Journal, Dublin, 11 June 1884, reported on the marriage of Mary Anne and Theobald:
A Romantic Marriage (from a correspondent), Ennis, Tuesday.
A marriage under circumstances which, if not altogether unprecedented, is of rare occurrence, was celebrated at the parish chapel, Crusheen, within the past few days. The bridegroom was Theobald Butler, Esq., Ballyline House, the bride being Miss Mary Anne Griffey, daughter of the herd on Mr. Butler’s estate. The acquaintance between the pair sprang into existence during the lifetime of the young gentleman’s father (the late Colonel Butler, D.L.), but owing to the usual objections in cases of the kind he was prevented from attaining the consummation of his desires until the death of the latter, which placed him in an independent position, leaving him an inheritance of £4,000 per annum, with some £30,000 in hard cash. The ceremony, which was the occasion of much festivity among the tenantry on the estate, was performed by the Rev Timothy Hogan, P.P., Crusheen, assisted by his curate, the Rev J.P. Maguire, and the Rev B Scanlan, P.P., Doora. It should be mentioned that Mr. Butler, whose ancestors for centuries past were strict adherents to the Protestant religion, embraced the Catholic faith on the day preceding his marriage, the Sacrament of Baptism having been administered by Father Hogan.
The 1901 census gives Mary Anne’s age as 36, but she was 42 or 43.
MrsTButler.jpg
MrsTButler.jpg (117.83 KiB) Viewed 10013 times
All of this is straying very much from the topic of this thread. An explanation of the relationship between Laurence Browne and Elizabeth Browne would help to bring it back on track.

Sheila

Sduddy
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by Sduddy » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:15 am

I think Elizabeth was a niece of Fr. Lawrence Browne.
Going on Elizabeth (Browne) Griffey’s age in the 1911 census (age 42), I checked for the civil record of her birth (allowing quite a bit of leeway on either side of 1869) and found this one registered in Ennis (in Jan 1866): 3 Nov 1865: Birth of Elizabeth Monica to Patrick Ulysses Browne, Farmer, and Mary Anne Flannagan: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 301961.pdf

The Drumcliff parish baptisms show the baptisms of some of the children of Patrick Browne and Mary Anne Flanagan, but there’s a gap between the baptism of Mary Jane in 1857, and the baptism of Elizabeth in 1865, so the family must have lived somewhere else for those years:
23 Oct 1857: Mary Jane of Patrick Browne and Mary Anne Flanagan, Mill Street; sponsors: Patrick(?) Kenny, Margaret O’Flanagan.
3 Nov 1865: Elizabeth Monica of Patrick Browne and Mary Anne Flanagan, Mill Street; sponsors: Martin Flanagan, Jane Flanagan
8 Apr 1868: Helena of Patrick Browne and M.A. O’Flanagan, Mill Street; sponsors: sponsors: William Brown, Ellon Flanagan.
20 May 1869: Patrick Joseph of Patrick Browne and Mary Anne Flanagan, Mill Street; sponsors: Rev Laurence Browne, Bedelia McDonnell.

The civil record of the birth of Patrick in 1869 gives his father's occupation as Auctioneer.

Sheila

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