Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

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pwaldron
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Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by pwaldron » Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:08 am

I have discussed the Quinlivan family extensively in this forum and with many of the descendants over the years, e.g.
http://www.ourlibrary.ca/phpbb2/viewtop ... f=1&t=1697
and
http://www.ourlibrary.ca/phpbb2/viewtop ... f=1&t=3873

I noticed over the years that Fr. Laurence Browne (whose mother was a Quinlivan) was executor or administrator of a number of estates including the following at
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchiv ... _00387.pdf
Calendar of Wills and Administrations 1906:
`GROGAN Mary [388] 18 August Administration of the estate of Mary Grogan late of Market-square Kilrush County Clare
Widow who died 24 July 1905 granted at Dublin to The Reverend Laurence J. Browne P.P. Effects
£ 1,743 6s. 6d. (Limited).'

Stupidly, I missed the fact that there was no will in this case and that Fr. Browne was granted Administration (Limited). This suggests that he was related to the deceased, or at least appointed by her relatives to act on their behalf.

In 1901, Mrs. Grogan was already widowed, aged 70, b. Co. Limerick, boarding with Anne Breene:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... e/1082315/
This is the house on the corner of Market Square and Frances Street, now part of Patrick Bourke's menswear shop. It had been in Grogan hands since before Slater's 1846 directory.

Fr. Browne died on 15 September 1909 without completing the administration and a second grant was issued to Michael Killeen solicitor on 22 Jan 1910:

http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchiv ... _00463.pdf
Calendar of Wills and Administrations 1910 p.242:
`GROGAN Mary [42] 22 January Administration of the Unadministered Estate of Mary Grogan late
of Market Square Kilrush County Clare Widow who died 24 July 1905 granted at Dublin to
Michael Killeen Solicitor Effects £ 1,877 16s. 4d. (Former Grant 18 August 1906)'.

I will be ordering the administration packets on my next visit to the National Archives.

John Grogan and Mary Quinlivan had eight children baptised in Kilrush parish between 1858 and 1870.

As Fr. Browne's mother was a Quinlivan, she was probably closely related to Mrs. Grogan, explaining how her son ended up as administrator.

The birth of the sixth child of John Grogan and Mary Quinlivan is reported as follows at
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... iages1.htm
1865 13th November (CJ).
Birth: On Friday at Market Street,Kilrush the widow of Mr. John Grogan of a son

However, reports of John's death appear to have been greatly exaggerated as he had two more children and did not die until 26 April 1900 aged 75, leaving effects of £ 1,408 14s. 11d. See
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchiv ... _00377.pdf

My questions are where and when did John Grogan marry Mary Quinlivan, who were her parents and where does she fit into the extended Quinlivan family?

rootsireland.ie has no marriage of a j grogan to a quinlivan, so the marriage probably took place somewhere in Clare, despite the fact that the bride was born in Limerick.

pj.culligan
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by pj.culligan » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:43 pm

Hello Paddy, I think the Grogan's may have been from Kilmurry-McMahon. Mai McMahon who died some years ago aged 104 was related to them. Her granddaughter Marian McMahon Jones might know the connection if not then her father would. I think Mai's maiden name could have been Grogan. Don't know if the marriage you are looking for took place in Kilmurry-McMahon parish but it might be worth exploring.

pj.culligan
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by pj.culligan » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:08 pm

A John Grogan died at Market Square on 26-4-1900 aged 75 and married at time of death.

pwaldron
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by pwaldron » Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:34 am

Thanks, PJ. I've sent Marian a facebook message.

Jimbo
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by Jimbo » Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:27 pm

Hi Paddy,

Below is the obituary for John Grogan in the Irish World (NY) newspaper of 26 May 1900 (genealogybank newspaper archive). Might raise more questions than it answers. The "chief mourner" is listed as his brother Daniel Grogan of Derha. There is no mention of a wife or any children.

An earlier very brief obituary from the Irish American Weekly (NY) of 10 June 1882 states: "John Grogan, May 18th at Frances Street son of Michael Grogan late of Maynooth". No mention of a wife or family, but the Clare library's "Kilrush Notes" of 18 May 1886 states: "The reduction in rent allowed by Mr. Daniel Grogan of Derha to Mrs. Grogan of Frances Street and she said that Mr. Grogan had promised to repair the house for her. He had not done so yet." This Mrs. Grogan of Frances Street appears to be a widow.

Could the Mary Grogan who died in 1905 be the widow of the John Grogan of Frances Street who died in 1882? This might explain why no wife or children are listed in the John Grogan obituary of 1900.

http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... notes3.htm

Michael Quinlivan of Gower and the Rev. L.G. Browne of Doonbeg are listed in the obituary as cousins of John Grogan.

There would have been quite a few boats to get to Scattery Island as it seems like half of Kilrush are listed in the obituary:

MUNSTER
CLARE.- The death of Mr. John Grogan,
merchant, Kilrush, happened April 26, and
caused great regret to be felt by the people of
the town and adjacent districts. The funeral
took place on Saturday, the interment being at
the cemetery in the Island of Scattery. Chief
mourners: Daniel Grogan, Derha (brother);
John Grogan, Caherfree; Stephen Grogan, Gower;
Michael Grogan, Tullyerine; William Grogan,
Daniel Grogan, Jr., Jeremiah Grogan, all of
Derha; Patrick Joseph Grogan, Queen's College,
Galway; John Grogan, Jr., Caherfree (nephews);
Michael Quinlivan, Gower; Patrick Killeen,
M. Killeen, Moloskey, Christopher Kelly, Craga-
knock House, John Mescall (cousins); John Connell,
Moyne. At the funeral: Very Rev. Dr.
Malone, Rev. P. Hogan, Rev. J. Hannan, Rev.
Father Ryan, Rev. L.G. Browne, Doonberg
(cousin)
; Dr. J.F. Counihan, Dr. Sexton, Coroner;
Dr. Randal Counihan, P. O'Ryan, P.Ward,
L. O'Brien, F.W. Hickman, F. Coffee, J. Culligan,
W.J. Glynn, F.J. O'Doherty, T. Daly,
Kilmilhil; Michael Ryan, Corrig; Stephen Hennessy,
James O'Conner, Thomas Fitzgerald, A. Ryan,
J.C. Mahony, William Moody, M. Lynch,
P. Culliman, Thomas Kelly, solicitor; D.R. Hilliard,
solicitor; T.J. Hunt, solicitor; Jeremiah
Dowling, M. Mescall, J. Kett, J.S.Dowling,
W. Morrissy, Township Surveyor; M. O'Dea,
J.J. Kelly, V.S.; J.S. Carroll, auctioneer,
Mr. Finlay, P.Reidy, John O'Dwyer, Stephen Clancy,
Captain Murray, Thomas Lernihan, Town Seargant;
Mr. Crotty, Thomas Donnellan, M. O'Sullivan,
Thomas Ryan, P.C. Philpott, P. Carey,
auctioneer; T.W. Coote, G. Blackwell, Killard;
M. Williams, Commercial Hotel; Wm. O'Sullivan,
Mr. Blake, J. Clancy, John Curran, Jospeh Keatinge,
T. Slattery and others. On Scattery Island
are the ancient remains of seven churches, and
a fine "Round Tower" over 120 feet in height.
Thomas Moore has caused the fame of the island
to reach almost every civilized people through his
poem "St. Senanus and the Lady." All funerals
to the cemetery make a touching scene, as the
remains in one boat is followed in funeral order
by all the other boats.

pwaldron
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by pwaldron » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:25 pm

Thanks a million, Jimbo.

As you say, the funeral report provides almost as many questions as answers!

Women did not attend funerals in those days, as you can see from the fact that all the mourners listed are male!

Michael Quinlivan, the Killeens, Christopher Kelly and Fr. Browne are probably all cousins not of the deceased but of his wife, née Mary Quinlivan. This is additional evidence of a Killeen/Quinlivan marriage of which I have conflicting details.

Four of the Grogan/Quinlivan children had also been buried on Scattery, as can be seen from the inscription at
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... ptions.htm

The eight Grogan/Quinlivan children baptised in Kilrush included two Patricks and two Johns, so at most six survived infancy. The tombstone inscription accounts for four, but Edward (1862) and Mary (1869) are still to be accounted for. The fact that administration of the mother's estate was granted to Fr. Browne certainly suggests that she had no surviving children when she died in 1905.

The John Grogan who died in 1882 was a tenant on Frances Street in Kilrush of Daniel Grogan, presumably the Daniel of Durha who was a chief mourner at the funeral of his brother John Grogan who died in 1900. The two John Grogans lived 11 houses apart on the north side of Frances Street, the man who died in 1900 on the corner of Market Square and the man who died in 1882 further west. John who died in 1882 was succeeded as occupier (per Valuation Office records) by Susan Grogan, presumably the woman who later had trouble with her landlord and namesake.

John Grogan and Susan McGuinness had five children baptised in Kilrush between 1873 and 1879, but their first recorded child had been born in Longford:
https://familysearch.org/search/collect ... id=1584963

I have not been able to find their marriage. The reference to Maynooth in the death notice and the child born in Longford make me wonder if it was just coincidence that they ended up renting from one namesake down the street from another namesake.

Jimbo
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by Jimbo » Sun May 10, 2015 7:36 pm

Paddy, looks like you have the John Grogans of Frances Street all sorted out! There was another obituary in the Irish World for a John Grogan who died on 14 April 1900 within two weeks of John Grogan of Kilrush. This man was from County Roscommon and probably of no interest to you, but just in case another Grogan researcher finds this post and gets confused between the two: the "deceased was the father of the Rev. John Grogan, Tibohine, and Rev. Patrick Grogan, California, and uncle of Mr. M.H. Grogan, a member of an old and respected family in Castlerea" (Irish World of 12 May 1900). No mention of his widow in the obituary, although his two daughters were listed as mourners.

You mentioned that Michael Quinlivan, Christopher Kelly et al were most likely all cousins due to John Grogan's wife who was a Quinlivan. I did see another obituary in the NY Irish press for a Rev. Kelly (or perhaps it was O'Kelly) and the Rev. Laurence Browne was listed as a cousin. Unfortunately, I had only made a mental note of this, and the obituary has now gone missing. If you have any clues on who this could be (what parish etc) or what year the Rev. Kelly died, I can do another search in the archive.

Finally, are you sure about your comment that women did not attend funerals in the latter part of the 19th century? Could it be that they attended, but just weren't mentioned in the obituaries? I recall seeing an Irish documentary from the West of Ireland that included a funeral procession to the cemetery - the priest led the procession, followed by pallbearers carrying the casket, then the other men, and lastly the women. Or was your comment specific to funerals on Scattery Island? The obituary for John Grogan mentions the poem "St. Senanus and the Lady" by Thomas Moore. After reading the poem, it sounds like Scattery Island might have unique traditions with regards to women on the island!

St. Senanus

"On! haste, and leave this sacred isle,
Unholy bark, ere morning smile;
For on thy deck, though dark it be,
A female form I see;
And I have sworn this sainted sod
Shall ne'er by woman's feet by trod!"


The Lady

"Oh! Father, send not hence my bark
Through wintry winds and billows dark,
I come, with humble heart, to share
Thy morn and evening prayer;
Nor mine the feet, oh! holy Saint,
The brightness of thy sod to taint."


The lady's prayer Senanus spurn'd;
The winds blew fresh, the bark return'd.
But legends hint, that had the maid
Till morning's light delay'd,
And given the saint one rosy smile,
She ne'er had left his lonely isle.

Thomas Moore

mgallery
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by mgallery » Sun May 10, 2015 11:25 pm

Women not going to funerals was correct and was not an irish or a West of Ireland thing it was also in the UK. I dont know if you saw cranfield based on the Eliza Gaskell book which one of the episodes was all about women not going to funerals and how revolutionary it was for a woman to follow her father's coffin. Also recently "Far from the Madding Crowd" the movie the funeral sets off with only men following.

If you saw the Irish documentary it must have been filmed a good bit later than end of the 19th century. I dont know when they started attending. I do know I went to a funeral in Tipperary and the men walked off following the coffin, I followed them and a car stopped to pick me up and said you dont have to walk only then men do as the men in her family followed Princess Diana (not the women).

pwaldron
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by pwaldron » Sat May 16, 2015 4:46 am

There is a decided lack of women in this photograph of the funeral cortege of Mrs. Frost of Sixmilebridge who died on 8 Oct 1888.

murf
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by murf » Sun May 17, 2015 5:37 am

The Clare Journal report of the funeral of my gt grandmother Honor Murphy at Ballycorick in 1902 lists only male family members among the chief mourners. It then proceeds to list a further 116 sundry gentlemen from all parts of the county who were in attendance, and rather curiously ending the list with "..etc" Perhaps our intrepid reporter had writer's cramp by then!
Seven years later in 1909, at her husband Michael's funeral, also at Ballycorick, the female close family were included in the chief mourners, and also among the givers of wreaths. This may be a clue to pinning down a time when the change of attitudes occurred.

Jimbo
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by Jimbo » Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:51 pm

Interesting comments and photo, thank you. I had no idea that women didn't attend funerals. Paddy, my apologies for taking over your Grogan thread on this grim topic!

Margaret brought up that this was not just an Irish tradition but also in the UK. Found this website article "Regency Way of Death: Ladies at Funerals?" by Kathryn Kane which explains the reason why women in England didn't attend funerals and some historical background:

https://regencyredingote.wordpress.com/ ... -funerals/

But still left with a few questions:

In the John Grogan of Kilrush obituary, there is no information on a church or of a "requiem mass". Would a typical funeral during this time period always include a church service? And were women excluded from the funeral at the church or just the burial at the cemetery?

If Irish women in the late 19th century did not attend funerals, were they adopting British traditions or had this always been an Irish tradition? For example, would women in the early 19th century from a rural Clare community of Irish speakers be excluded from funerals?

Interested in any feedback on this. When you google Irish funerals, most of the information is on traditions involving the Irish wake, but not much on the funeral service / burial.

Sduddy
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by Sduddy » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:44 am

I think that women did attend funerals - at least in the early part of the century. One of the stories in William Carleton’s Traits and Stories of the Irish Peasantry (first published anonymously in 1830) is ‘The Party Fight and Funeral’. In this story the coffin is carried by four men, but the widow and children of the dead man are among the crowd that follows the funeral. They go by the house of the murderer of the dead man and the widow calls, “Come out, and look at the sight here before you! Come and view your own work!”
The narrator describes the burial: “The order of the funeral now was as follows: - Foremost the women – next to them the corpse, surrounded by the relations – the eldest son, in deep affliction”.

Sheila

Sduddy
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by Sduddy » Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:38 am

I think women attended funerals in the late nineteenth century also, but that only the names of male mourners were noted by the newspaper reporters. In Ulysses, Leopold Bloom attends the funeral of Paddy Dignam. At the cemetery “Mourners came through the gates: woman and a girl …Girl’s face stained with dirt and tears”. Earlier that morning Bloom had run into an acquaintance, McCoy, who thinks he won’t make it to the funeral and asks Bloom to sign for him. After the burial, Bloom sees the reporter taking the names of those attending.
“Hynes jotting down something in his notebook. Ah, the names. But he knows them all. No: coming to me.
-I am just taking the names, Hynes said below his breath. What is your Christian name? I’m not sure.
- L, Mr Bloom said. Leopold. And you might put down M’Coy’s name too. He asked me to”.

mgallery
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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by mgallery » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:10 pm

I tried looking this up to pretty much no avail. In England or Ireland there was not a lot of research on funeral processions. What it did say in one article was that the Catholic church didnt like women at the graveside for the interment but it didnt specify after that

Margaret

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Re: Grogan and Quinlivan of Kilrush and Limerick

Post by pwaldron » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:19 am

Interesting that Joyce considered Leopold to be the Christian name of the Jew Bloom! He wouldn't get away with that slip in today's politically correct world.

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