Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria, 1850

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Lyn Coyne
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Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by Lyn Coyne » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:55 pm

Thomas,

I've done a bit of trawling through the Clonrush RC Registers. I believe the father of Peter Wall is John but it is hard to read. I noticed quite a lot of Bouchier (and variant spellings) so there was obviously quite a bit of intermarriage.

I have been so lucky with my Desmond ancestors who were famine orphans from Dunmanway in County Cork. The registers have been transcribed on irishgenealogy.ie and there are only a few counties that have been done.

Lyn

Lyn Coyne
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:25 pm

Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by Lyn Coyne » Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:01 pm

Thomas,

I finished going through the baptisms on the Clonrush register today. One entry got me very excited but I have since calmed down. It was a baptism for August 3, 1849, for Margaret born to John Egan and Eliza Dugard. The sponsors were Edmund Beck and Eliza Page. Edmund was a tenant of Mary Tandy in the GV of 1855, and leased land in Cloonoolia Nth, Mountshannon and Mountshannon Village. John Egan with wife Eliza Dugard (an English surname probably coming from the French) and children John, Margaret and Martin sailed on the Berwick Castle from London to the Falklands in 1852 and arrived in Auckland, New Zealand in 1852. They settled in Howick.

And on the Berwick Castle was Michael Page of the 13th Light Infantry, of Woodford, Galway who settled in Howick. I believe that the Eliza Page who was the sponsor at Margaret Egan's baptism will be related to Michael Page and is not my great grandmother. I did, however, find another reference which could be mine. In April, 1850, there was a baptism for Patrick, born to Thomas Flannery and Margaret Mannix (I think). The sponsors were James Hartneady and Eliza Page.

I also found two baptisms for children born to John Wall and Honora Doogan and Judith Flannery was a sponsor for each baptism.

I now need to apply myself to the Clonrush marriage registers!

Lyn

Lyn Coyne
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:25 pm

Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by Lyn Coyne » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:06 pm

Thomas,

Just scrolling through minutes of the Clonrush Famine Relief Committee which are on the same microfilm and found an entry for relief to the widow Page for 1846.

Lyn

tomasmacgiolla
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Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by tomasmacgiolla » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:29 pm

LYN,
Well done with all those discoveries on the Clonrush site –I missed many of those. It’s a tedious task especially when sections were written in latin!
My source for Edmund Page who was the oldest name we have in the Oghilly family tree is not accessible at the moment. He lives in Scotland and he also is a descendent of the Coose Pages who earlier descended from the Oghilly family.However I have got information from other Page relations in Canada who are descendents of the Scottish branch which suggests that Edmund Page’s parents were Cromwellian settlers who were transplanted to the Woodford area in the period 1645-52. This obviously predates the arrival of the Clonrush Pages by a hundred years. Where this information comes from I don’t know but I intend to investigate further.If this is correct it puts in doubt a possible connection between the Galway and Clonrush Pages.However not all the Galway Pages are connected to the Oghilly Pages and could still be descendents of the Clonrush/Mountshannon Pages.It is also a unlikely coincidence that such a large concentration of Page families could come to live in such a small geographical area without some connection between them.Could the families have been connected prior to their arrival in the Clare/Galway area? This source also suggest that the Pages were a Welsh/Norman family who came to Ireland in the 13th century. I have seen several references to La Page as a Norman family in Ireland.
The names you mention in connection to the Page family in the Clonrush records are very rare and unique and names that totally disappeared from the area-names such as Dugart,Beck and Hartneady. The search gets more intriguing but if were easy it wouldn’t be half as much fun.
Thomas

Lyn Coyne
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Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by Lyn Coyne » Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:55 pm

Thomas,

I've gone through the Clonrush marriage register and found only two entries that might be relevant for 1852. In April, James Page married Margaret Conroy: witnesses Stephen Conroy and Bridget Mullin. In September, Patrick Sheehan married Judith Flannery: witnesses Wm Hogan and ? Page. There is nothing more until 1875 when Thomas Page married Margaret Geohegan: witnesses David Page and Bridget ? Then, in 1878, David Page married Catherine McNamara: witnesses Thomas Page and Margaret Burke.

Your information from Page relations in Canada descended from your Scottish branch, suggesting that Edmund Page's parents were Cromwellian settlers transplanted to the Woodford area in the period 1645-52, is fascinating and certainly requires further investigation.

I agree with you that it seems an unlikely coincidence that that such a large concentration of Page families could come to live in such a small geographical area without there being some connection between them. It is intriguing to speculate whether the families might have been connected prior to their arrival in the Clare/Galway area. Norman antecedents may not be entirely fanciful.

Lyn

tomasmacgiolla
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Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:56 pm

Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by tomasmacgiolla » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:15 pm

Lyn,
The records in the Clonrush parish register are a bit too recent for the Clare Pages as many seem to have left/moved by 1840’s -1850’s.It is strange that there are no Page names in Griffiths Valuation in the Clonrush /Mountshannon area in the 1850’s. Of course this register didn’t include those who didn’t i own or rent land or house ,so landless labourers and others could be excluded .
Several of the Page names you found are from the Oghilly/Coose branch whose wives were from the Clonrush parish.The Thomas Page who married Mary Geoghegan was my great grandfather who lived in Coose just inside the Galway County border today.The David Page who married Catherine McNamera was his brother and he was the witness at Thomas’s wedding three years earlier. This David Page moved to Scotland and his grandson was the person I referred to earlier who first introduced the Edmund Page mentioned in the last post. It was from the Scottish branch that the Page contacts in Canada I also referred to earlier originally came. Of course the reason these two marriages are recorded in the Clonrush was because Mary Geoghegan and Catherine McNamera were from that area. And a further connection to the Clonrush area –my great great grandfather-and the father of Thomas above ,married Margaret Sheehan. It was he who was born in Oghilly but moved to Coose.Therefore it is very likely that the Patrick Sheehan who married Judith Flannery was a nephew of that Margaret Sheehan since ? Page was a witness to his wedding.
It’s amazing how many marriage connections there were between the “Galway” Pages and the Clonrush /Mountshannon area and again suggests a connection between the two sides?
The James Page is interesting as you believe the James Page mentioned in the Tithe Applotments was your great grandmother’s uncle. There was no James in the Galway branch as far as I know. Anyway the search goes on.
Thomas

Lyn Coyne
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:25 pm

Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by Lyn Coyne » Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:46 pm

Thomas,

This gives me a clear picture of your great grandfather and his brother and their father, your great great grandfather, and your Scottish connection. What a pity the Clonrush records don't start ten years or so earlier.

I've done a bit of a potted history from the internet and read that it was in Connaught and the County of Clare that the Forfeiting Proprietors of the other provinces in Ireland, who obtained Transplanters' Certificates were transplanted. When the county Clare, like other parts of Ireland, was devastated under the Commonwealth Government of Ireland, to make room for the Cromwellian Settlement, the old Irish families who were dispossessed had to seek homes and refuges wherever they could for themselves and their families.

In addition to the plantations, thousands of independent settlers arrived in Ireland in the early 17th century, from the Netherlands and France. Many of them became chief tenants of Irish landowners. By 1641 there were calculated to be up to 125,000 Protestant settlers in Ireland. Also a considerable number of English Catholics settled in Ireland between 1603-1641, in part for economic reasons but also to escape persecution in England. In Ireland they could blend in with the local majority-Catholic population in a way not possible in England. Many single men married Irish women, although barred from law by doing so.

I need to do a lot more reading.

Lyn

Lyn Coyne
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:25 pm

Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by Lyn Coyne » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:14 pm

Hi Thomas,

I've been looking at that 1849 birth on the Clonrush Register again (Margaret born to John Egan and Eliza Dugard: sponsors Edmund Beck and Eliza Page). Whatever way you look at it, it is intriguing.

Michael Page of Gurteeny and John Egan were both in 13th Light Infantry and Michael Page's mother was Margaret Egan so John Egan and Michael Page will most likely be cousins. Michael Page had returned from India unfit for service in 1845 and was a patient at the Chelsea Hospital. It therefore seems logical that sponsor Eliza Page will be a relative of Michael Page who would have been unable to attend. Woodford Parish Registers start in 1821, too late for Michael's baptism but show four sisters: Jane b. 1823, Letitia b. 1833, Judith b. 1834 and Ann b. 1837. No Eliza unless born before 1821.

I then decided to look at Woodford marriages and found, in 1821, that a David Page married Jane Burke: witnesses Patrick Page and Eliza Page. I found no other reference to this Eliza Page who you would presume was born in the early 1800's. However, maybe she was married to a Page. The Dugard's are certainly interesting. There is apparently an Ann Fanny Bloxsom (nee Dugard) on the Killaloe Register. An Ancestry reference to her states that she married Thomas John Bloxsom in 1835 when she was 17. I have also found another reference to a Daniel Dugard marrying a Frances Page in Kilfennane, Limerick, in 1821 and it looks as if it could be the same person, widowed, who married Thomas Bloxsom of Mountshannon in 1835. Dugard is a Huguenot surname as is Bloxsom.

I've also tried to look at the South African connection and found Tobin's and Hartneady's of Co Clare who emigrated initially to South Africa but then went on to New Zealand, although too late (c. 1860) to have any bearing on Eliza Page making her way to South Africa. As well, I've found a great article by Donal P. McCracken of the University of KwaZulu in Natal. It's called "A Minority of a Minority of a Minority: the Irish in South Africa." Other people quote that single Irish women were sent to the Cape on a few occasions: 20 in 1849 and 46 in 1851, but he gives details.

As you wrote, the search gets more intriguing but if it were easy it wouldn't be half as much fun.

Lyn

tomasmacgiolla
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:56 pm

Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by tomasmacgiolla » Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:28 pm

Lyn,
You may have hit on an interesting correlation between the Clonrush and Galway Pages. As you know Gurteeny is a neighbouring townland to Oghilly.The Page /Egan connection seems strong.I think I can identify some of the names on your recent post. The David Page who married Jane Burke was an Oghilly Page and a brother of my great great grandfather,Thomas Page . David inherited the family farm/estate and he was one of 14 children born to Michael Page and Letty(likely a version of Letitia) Lyons. Of these 14 I only have the names of 9 of David’s siblings-Edward who married Bridget Whelan,Michael Page who married Bridget Connaughton (referred to in earlier post),Francis who married Ann Broderick,Ann(no record),Thomas who married Margaret Sheehan and moved to Coose(my g g grandfather),Martin (no record),Patrick(no record) and Elizabeth. This probably is the Elizabeth who was witness to the David and Jane Burke marriage with her brother Patrick.I have no other record of her.Jane Burke died young and David later married Mary Davy and they had 6 children of whom Thomas P was one-he wrote the memoir from which much of the above is taken.
I don’t know of a connection to the Michael Page who was in the Light Infantry-it does seem logical that he was connected to the Eliza Page who was sponsor to Clonrush baptism of Margaret Egan but I have no date for birth of Elizabeth born in Oghilly- Thomas ,my gg grandfather was born in 1815.
Your reference to the Huguenot names is also intriguing as I have been diverted into the hist of iron mining in the Lough Derg region especially in Woodford, Whitegate and Scarriff.The possible connection to Page history goes back to Bruce Elliott’s book. Thomas Crosdaile, who brought in the families from west Clare, inherited iron works in Whitegate as he already has works in Woodford. There is an interesting article online you might like to read-the Slieve Aughty Furnace Project-which gives some details.The local Clare newspaper ,The Clare Champion,also has a few articles online about a festival in Mountshannon in the summer of 2015 which I missed. An old memory /myth came into my mind recently that the Pages were Welsh miners brought to Ireland because of their mining knowledge. Huguenot families were also brought in for that reason. From my reading it seems the Woodford mines were coming to an end in the late 1700’s but the Whitegate furnace was relatively new in the 1760’s. Were the Pages brought in to work/advise on these works as well as being tenant farmers? Certainly there is an old belief that the Woodford Pages had some involvement in the iron mining industry-as you know these can be myth but they often have some basis in reality. The Huguenot names you referred to in Clonrush were most likely involved in this activity but it seems it was short lived.There is a limited Crosdaile family site online which you might like to look up.
Anyway that’s it for 2015-let’s hope for new progress in 2016-happy new year
Thomas Page

Lyn Coyne
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Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by Lyn Coyne » Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:34 pm

Correction: the male witness to the Page/Burke wedding in 1821 was Patrick Burke, not Page.

Lyn Coyne
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:25 pm

Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by Lyn Coyne » Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:36 am

Hello Thomas,

Some exciting news to report first up in 2016. I have found the shipping record for Eliza Page's voyage to South Africa. She sailed on the "Zenobia" from Gravesend, Kent, and arrived in Table Bay on 5 September, 1850. There were 230 passengers on board but I have only found a listing for herself and 12 other girls on the eEGGSA Passenger List Project. The notes read: "The undermentioned immigrants having arrived in the "Zenobia", persons desirous of engaging their services are requested to apply at Immigration Depot 6 without delay."

Some of the names are very Irish: Anne Minogue, Biddy McNamara, Margaret Murphy, Mary Roughan, Ellen Ryan and Anne Sheehan. In my looking at the Clonrush Parish Register, Roughan is very much a Co Clare name. I have also found a Martin Hartneady who arrived in Cape Town on the "Diadem' in February 1851, presumably on the same emigration scheme as Eliza. Unlike her, he settled in South Africa and became a wine dealer.

I now have to see if it is possible to access some details of Eliza Page's employment via deposit journals to get an idea of when she left for Australia. Perhaps it was this leg of her journey when she travelled as a nanny with a family. It would also be interesting to get some details of the emigration scheme that she and Martin Hartneady were able to access.

Let's hope that 2016 will be a good research year for us both.

Lyn

Lyn Coyne
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:25 pm

Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by Lyn Coyne » Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:05 am

Thomas,

In response to your 26 December posting: was it common in Ireland for Eliza to be used as a diminutive of Elizabeth? I am asking this because Eliza (Page) Coakley called one of her daughters Eliza and another one Elizabeth Anne.

I haven't as yet looked at the Slieve Aughty Furnace Project but will do so. I have earlier looked at some Croasdaile genealogy which was interesting and will revisit it.

It's certainly plausible that the earlier Page's might have been brought into the area to advise on iron works and later became tenant farmers.

I must also consult Clare newspapers to see if there is any mention of emigration schemes to South Africa around 1850.

The search goes on..............

Lyn

tomasmacgiolla
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:56 pm

Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by tomasmacgiolla » Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:58 pm

Lyn,
Well done on finding Eliza Page’s immigration record. It’s a great feeling when you make a breakthrough like that. I looked up that ship and the girls who accompanied Eliza had local surnames as you say. Minogue is a common enough name in Clare and in the Clonrush /Mountshannon area in particular up to today and so is McNamara and Sheehan although the name Sheehan isn’t as common today.In fact my great great grandfather married a Margaret Sheehan from the Clonrush area in 1839 and moved to Coose from Oghilly and my greatgrandfather’s brother, David ,married a Catherine McNamera from Mountshannon in1878 and moved to Scotland.
What an incredible journey for those girls not knowing where they would end up with no relatives there I presume.It also shows the desperate situation of girls like those in the post famine years.And then to see that Eliza moved to Australia later!!!!What fascinating experiences she must have had -one would love to get some idea but alas that is most unlikely.I don’t know anything about record keeping in South Africa and whether it is possible to trace her movement there.You stated earlier that she moved to Australia circa 1850 so that she didn’t spend much time in SA.One would imagine that she moved to Australia with a family she was acting as nanny for in SA.
It is not so common to use Eliza rather than Elizabeth but i always assumed it was the same name-in Ireland Liz ,Lizzy or Beth would be more common.
Best of luck in your search,
Thomas

Lyn Coyne
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:25 pm

Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by Lyn Coyne » Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:36 pm

Hi Thomas,

I was in the city today meeting my cousin (she is also a descendant of Eliza Page) so I called into the State Library and did some searching of the Births, Marriages and Deaths Indexes. David Page and Bridget Greelish had 11 children:

1870 Ann born at Penshurst
1872 Dennis Patrick born at Penshurst
1873 Francis born at Mt Rouse (died in 1874)
1875 Michael born at Penshurst
1877 Mary born at Penshurst
1878 Joanna born at Mt Rouse (died at 4 months)
1880 Francis born at Mt Rouse
1882 David born at Mt Rouse
1884 Thomas born at Mt Rouse
1886 Martha born at Mt Rouse
1888 Catherine born at Penshurst

David Page died aged 66 at Penshurst in 1898. Son Dennis Patrick Page married Margaret Malone in 1898 and David Thomas Page was born in 1899.

All this information was on the Pioneer Index. I will follow through on the Federation, Edwardian and Great War Indexes when I am next in town.

It's quite a dynasty, isn't it?

Lyn

tomasmacgiolla
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:56 pm

Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by tomasmacgiolla » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:48 pm

Hello Lyn,
Yes that's a lot of descendents. Who was this David Page ?-have we come across him before?
Thomas

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