Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria, 1850

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Lyn Coyne
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Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by Lyn Coyne » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:53 pm

Hello Thomas,

Very interested to read your post. I do know of the Oghilly Pages and recall that when my mother's cousins went to Clare in 1967 they were advised by the local Church of Ireland minister to get in touch with the family. I wrote to an Annie Page of Woodford a few of years ago and she very kindly wrote back and said she had passed on my letter to a member of the family. I never heard back. I am now on my way out and will very much look forward to getting your family tree.

Lyn

tomasmacgiolla
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Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by tomasmacgiolla » Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:09 pm

Hi Lyn,
I will give a brief account of our family tree . As yet I haven’t made a connection to your branch of the family but perhaps we will. The oldest couple I have is a Edmund Page (1712-1772) who married Ann Flannery(1742-?). I got these details from a distant cousin and as yet haven’t confirmed these and I am unable to contact this person at the moment. However all his detail on their descendants are very reliable as you will see later. From this couple the Ohilly Pages descended but where they lived I do not know as Oghilly house dates only from the 1780’s/1790’s. This couple’s son Michael Page who lived in Oghilly married Letty Lyons and they supposedly had 14 children!!!!
The information about Michael\ Letty and their descendents comes from a fascinating memoir written by their grandson Thomas P Page who emigrated from Oghilly in 1847 to the US .Thomas P’s father and Michael’s son was David Page who married Mary Davy. My great great grandfather Thomas Page , (my father,grandfather,great grandfather and great great grandfather were called Thomas which is confusing at times) was son of Michael Page,brother of David and therefore an uncle of Thomas P Page.
The Oghilly Pages were prosperous as they rented a large estate (up to 300 acres in the 1850’s Griffiths Valuation) and they were also landlords as they sublet part of the estate to smaller tenants-a common enough practice at the time. Thomas P refers to this in his memoir. My g g grandfather married Margaret Sheehan and moved to Coose south-a small townland on the present Clare\Galway border a few kms south of Oghilly This must have been a big come down for him as he is recorded in Griffiths Valuation as sharing 163 acres with 10 others –a type of community farming that survived in some parts of the west of Ireland even after the famine.My father was born in Coose but moved to Rossmore when he married my mother.
Another son of Michael Page and Letty Lyons (and brother of David and my g g grandfather Thomas) was also called Michael and he married Bridget Connaughton.Their son Martin (born 1815 died 1872) was the Martin who became the policeman in Victoria you refer to in your post. I have a printout of his death notice giving all these details.You write that his father’s name was Martin but my record says Michael.The dates match up –born in 1815 ,died 1872,was unmarried and his last position was police inspector at Heathcote, Victoria.
Another person you refer to was a Liz Page who married Laurence Taylor and moved to Australia. You refer to the fact they moved to the same suburb of Melbourne as John Page and Eliz Blackall and this may suggest a connection between the Oghilly Pages and the Clonrush /Mountshannon branch as Eliza Page who married Laurence Taylor was Thomas P Page’s sister and my great great grandfather’s niece. Thomas P refers to her in his memoirs. It was hardly a coincidence that they moved in to the same suburb.
A connection between the Clare Pages and the Oghilly Pages seems unlikely at first sight because of the wealth of the latter but that wealth was exceptional-the vast majority of the Galway Pages were poor tenant farmers even those related to the Oghilly Pages
For the moment that is a lot of info –I hope it makes sense. If you wish to make one to one contact I would be happy to send you any material I have .I’m not sure how this is done on the forum.
Thomas Page

brendan
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Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by brendan » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:15 pm

Inisparran Island is still known locally as Page's Island. It is now uninhabited but there is a fisherman's hut on the northern shore. Mountshannon (Inis Cealtra) and Whitegate (Clonrush) now form one parish in County Clare. But at times in the past Inis Cealtra and Clonrush were separate parishes in County Galway.

Lyn Coyne
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:25 pm

Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by Lyn Coyne » Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:52 am

Hi Brendan,

Thank you for your post. I take it you live somewhere around the general area. It seems amazing that the island is still known locally as Page's Island. My ancestor left there by 1849 and her father had died before this date. By the Tithe Applotment Books, John Page was living on the island by 1830 and I wonder just how long he and his family actually lived there. An island sounds romantic but I imagine living there was bleak and very basic.

Lyn

Lyn Coyne
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:25 pm

Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by Lyn Coyne » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:12 am

Hello Thomas,

It would be interesting to confirm your cousin's source for Edmund Page and Anne Flannery as these are very early dates for this area. Would I be right in assuming that your branch of the Page's is Catholic?

John Page and Elizabeth Blackall are recorded as Protestants on the "Elizabeth" which fits well with Professor Bruce Elliott's thesis. It would be great to establish a connection between the Oghilly Page's and the Clonrush/Mountshannon branch.

If you look at the Public Member Family Trees on Ancestry, you will find John Thompson Page, b. 1810 in Mountshannon, Galway, died in 1873 in Malvern, which is very close to where I was brought up. He and Elizabeth Blackall came out here with four children: James, Anne, Catherine and Jonas. He later remarried to Bridget Barratt and had another five children. The death certificate for John Page gives his father as Thomas Page and his mother as Elizabeth Thompson.

By the way, on Rootsweb GENANZ-L Archives I found a post by Bill Spence of Albany, Western Australia in 1998 on the family of Lawrence Taylor and Elizabeth Page. Some of his information is not accurate but he was asking if there was anyone who could add to this family's story. Sadly, there were no replies.

Another Public Member Family Tree on ancestry is for Anne Page, born in Woodford in 1846 whose father is given as John Page of Mountshannon, the reference for which is the Tithe Applotment Books, and then Loughrea in the Griffiths Valuation of 1857. This John Page was married to Hannah O'Brien. On the Victorian Shipping lists are a John Page, 22, and an Anne Page, 17, who came out on the "Vanguard" in 1863. Her age fits well with this Anne Page and perhaps they were brother and sister.

There is also a David Page of Galway, b. 1832 who came to Australia in 1860. He married Bridget Greenlish and they had a tribe of children. His parents were Francis Page and Ann Broderick.

You are so lucky to have the memoir written by Thomas P. Page of Oghilly.

I agree with you that a connection between the Clare Page's and the Oghilly Page's seems unlikely at first sight because of the wealth of the latter, but I also don't doubt that many of the Galway Page's, even those related to the Oghilly Page's, would have been poor tenant farmers.

It's clear, too, from what I have read online by Gerard Madden, that there was a lot of unrest in the general Mountshannon area between the local residents and the imported ones and that there must have been a lot of impoverishment due to over-population and poor land. Perhaps this is indicative of the Page's that Professor Bruce Elliott mentions as having applied to the Colonial Office to emigrate.

By the way, I found the letter that Annie Page of Bawnmore, Gurteeny, Woodford, wrote to me in 2004. She married John Page in 1948, son of Patrick Page. Her father-in-law was also Patrick Page and he had brothers, Michael and John , in Australia and sisters Mary, Margaret, Elizabeth and Annie. Annie Page passed my letter onto Matthew Page of Oghilly House who knew of Page's Island but I never heard from him. That's it for now.

Lyn

Jimbo
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Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by Jimbo » Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:31 pm

Hi Lyn,

Regarding John Page the farmer of Moorfield, Galway that I had suggested a few months back as worthy of further research. Had I known the distance of Moorfield from Inishparran not sure that I would have been so keen on suggesting. Using Google Maps even today the 112 K journey takes 1 hour 52 minutes!

Thomas Page provided a very interesting clue that the gaelic version of Page is "Mac Giolla".

On rootsireland I did a search for any "Eliza Page" with a father's surname of "Page" born in Clare / Galway / Limerick within 10 years of 1833, with the below results:

1) 1823, Elizabeth Gil, Galway
2) 1825, Elizabeth Gill, Galway
3) 1835, Ellizabth Page, Galway
4) 1841, Elizabeth Page, Galway
5) 1843, Elizabeth Gill, Limerick

Rootsireland is pretty clever to know that Page and Gill are equivalent.

To get the birth / baptism details would have cost 25 credits under the old rootsireland pricing plan. I had earned loads of free searches as had quite a bit of luck finding my Limerick ancestors. Unfortunately, upon using the last of my 25 credits on my family tree, the remainder of my free searches disappeared. Anyways, the new pricing plan is US$ 28 for one month of unlimited access which might be worth your while to investigate the Elizabeth Page / Gill births further as well as having a look for the John Page / Gill marriage to Catherine Wall.

Best of luck,
James

tomasmacgiolla
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Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:56 pm

Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by tomasmacgiolla » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:00 pm

Hello Lyn,
Thank you for all those leads-I will explore them as far as I can at this end. Thank you James for your post. The name Gilmore is also connected and in Scotland a hunting guide was known as a gilly. I will also take your advice and explore that roots site.
As far as I know Lyn the all Galway Pages were R .Catholic including the Oghilly Pages.You mentioned that you thought your great grandmother had been a RC and she married a protestant. Reading Bruce Elliott’s book seems to suggest that the Page settlers who came to Clonrush were protestant as he writes that protestant freeholders were introduced into the area just after he refers to the Pages. But I suspect that the Pages were not freeholders but were tenants of the introduced freeholders-the Clarkes who were protestant. By the time of the Tithe Applotments the Clarkes and Longs were still substantial landowners while the Pages were very poor tenants.However whether the Pages were protestant I don’t know.You do refer to the fact that George Clarke was connected to the Pages by marriage and the list of names you give connected to the Pages-Harbrough,Brown,Blackall, Boucher etc would be regarded locally as protestant names .
What a pity there was no response to Bill Spence-it would be very interesting to know his connection to Laurence Taylor and Eliz Page.That find of an Ann Page born in Woodford but whose father John was born in Mountshannon sounds like a very interesting lead as perhaps it seems to connect the two areas.
I can give you some info on David Page and Bridget Greenlish.A Francis Page born in Oghilly in the early 1800’s and a brother of my great ,great.grandfather married an Ann Broderick. I have no more details on them apart from that but it seems to be the same family.
I have no doubt that many if not most of the descendents of the Clonrush /Mountshannon Pages emigrated in the mid 19th century either before or after the famine. But I have no record of any Page family in the East Clare/South Galway area before the 1740’s and it seems likely that they may have spread north from their initial settlement in the Clonrush\Mountshannon region as by the time of the Tithe Applotments there are at least 10 to 15 Page families in Galway(-it’s difficult you don’t if the same name is the same person holding land in different parts or a different person).After all it’s nearly a hundred years after the Clare settlement.
I know the Bawnmore Pages you refer to,they are neighbours of the Oghilly Pages and connected I think. I intend to get in contact with the Oghilly Family over the next few months and see what knowledge they have. I will update with other details when I explore further
Thomas Page

Lyn Coyne
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Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by Lyn Coyne » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:25 pm

Hello again James,

Thank you for your post. I agree with you that RootsIreland is clever to pick up on the Page/Gill link. I will spend some time - and money - investigating the site. I seem to remember years ago that parish records in Eliza's part of Galway were not available before 1846?

Lyn

Lyn Coyne
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:25 pm

Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by Lyn Coyne » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:09 pm

Hello Thomas,

Thank you for your post. Researching our Page's is certainly challenging. Until reading Professor Bruce Elliott's work, I did not question that our great grandmother was a "lapsed Catholic". We were told that the local RC priest in Warrnambool made a house call and was left in no doubt that his visit was not welcomed. I guess we'll never know the truth of the matter.

Those Page marriage connections to George Clarke and the list of the names connected to the Page's in the marriage bonds do seem to imply earlier protestant origins.

I tend to agree with you that the Page's were not freeholders but rather the tenants of the introduced freeholders, the Clarke's.

Re Bill Spence of Albany, Western Australia: he states that according to family tradition Lawrence Taylor, a draper, and Elizabeth Page came from Clare, Ireland, to Sydney, Australia, in about 1855. He states that they had 10 children and one son was named after his father, Lawrence Sylvester Taylor. He married Eliza Jane Twohy in Victoria in 1869 and they had at least 5 children, the youngest of whom, Lawrence Joseph, went to New Zealand. According to Bill Spence, Lawrence Sylvester Taylor Jnr. came to Western Australia in about 1890 after his wife died. He married again to May Elizabeth Hagan in 1907, the year that his mother died in Western Australia. A quick search online suggests that Bill Spence and family still live in Albany.

Re Anne Page of Woodford, I would think that the submitter of the family tree on Ancestry has just looked at the Tithe Applotment books and has assumed that her father is the John Page of Mountshannon that I mentioned in my first post as leasing 2 acres of second quality land. As you point out, it it difficult to know whether two references to a person of the same name might be one person leasing land in two different locations or whether they are in fact two different people. Here I am very lucky that there is no doubt that John Page on Page's Island is mine and that this is the reference that his daughter gives for her birthplace.

It is just possible that the John Page leasing land in Mountshannon could also be my John Page, but it might well be John Page, the baker, who married Elizabeth Blackall.

I will try to make touch with the submitters of Anne Page's family tree.

I'll look forward to hearing from you further down the track, Thomas, when you make contact with the Oghilly Page's.

tomasmacgiolla
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Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:56 pm

Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by tomasmacgiolla » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:22 pm

Lyn,
Just came across another detail that might be relevant. I came across as list of Co. Clare freeholders for the early 19th century. Freeholders were land owners or those tenants who had leases for their lives or for several lives. At one stage those freeholders who had property worth 40 shillings or more were eligible to vote and that is why this list was drawn up. It lists a John Page living in Scarriff in 1914 renting land from William Read. It also lists a William Page. As you may know Scarriff is only 7 or 8 kms south of Mountshannon on Lough Derg. The names listed after John on the table could be the other lives in the lease-perhaps his sons ? grandsons? In Bruce Elliott’s book he lists a Philip Read as a landlord in the Mountshannon region in 1855 (page24) . Indeed the Reads seem to have had a long and important connection to the region according to the book.
Thomas Page

tomasmacgiolla
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Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:56 pm

Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by tomasmacgiolla » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:24 pm

That should be 1814-the date given for the freeholder list for John Page
Thomas Page

Lyn Coyne
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:25 pm

Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by Lyn Coyne » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:14 pm

Thomas,

This is exciting. I have not investigated the library website as well as you have done.

So we have, in 1814, John Page of Scarriff, landlord William Reade with John Page, John Page and Henry Page as Lives and William Page of Scarriff, landlord William Reade with William Page and John Page as Lives. And, under Alphabetical List of Landholders, William Reade with Freeholder David Flannery at Scarriff, and Lives David and Pat Flannery and John Page, Senior, in 1815. As you note, Scarriff is only about 8 km south of Mountshannon. At the time of the GV, Philip Reade was one of the principal lessors in the parish of Clonrush and Iniscaltra. He owned half of the parish of Mountshannon and had a country house overlooking Holy Island and Lough Derg. Also, in my notes, I have recorded "Applotment Book of the Tithes of the Parish of Iniscaltra, Counties of Clare and Galway, Diocese of Killaloe, made in Nov 1833 by Edward Reade, Tithe Commissioner appointed by Government".

We are unearthing a lot of Page's!

Lyn

Lyn Coyne
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Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by Lyn Coyne » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:46 am

Thomas,

Just a further detail that I found on Ancestry: one of the sons of Elizabeth Page and Laurence Sylvester Taylor born before they emigrated was Michael Augustus Page Taylor and he was born in Scarriff.

Lyn

tomasmacgiolla
Posts: 24
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Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by tomasmacgiolla » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:45 pm

Lyn,
The fact of their son’s birth being recorded in Scarriff suggests that Laurence Taylor and Eliz lived in the Clare area as Scarriff was the civil recording centre for births,marriages and deaths in the Whitegate,Mountshannon region. Portumna was the centre for places north of there. I notice also a trait found in Oghilly Page families of using double barrel Christian names even in everyday usage.
I have been struggling through at the RC Clonrush parish records online and while they can be difficult to read I have found a few Page family enteries. One interesting one is for Dec 1847 where it names a Pat Wall and Eliza Page as sponsors for the baptism of a child called Peter to parents ----? Wall and Mary Doogan. You mentioned Wall as the name of your great grandmother’s mother. Being sponsors didn’t mean they were a couple but it suggests they were related.The records for Clonrush only date from 1846 unfortunately.
Your theory that Henry and James Page recorded in the tithe applotments were your great grandmother’s uncles ties in with the story passed down that a number of Page brothers were the first settlers in the East Clare region. You mentioned that George Clarke,one of the first settlers, had a sister Kathleen who married a Thomas Page and Clarke’s nephew was John Page (his sister’s son ?). I suggest that perhaps the other early Page settlers were brothers of that Thomas Page and brothers in law of George Clarke.
You refer to the C. of I.register held in the library of the Rep.church body in Dublin. I live not to far away from there and when I get time will call there and see what info I can get.
Thomas Page

Lyn Coyne
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:25 pm

Re: Eliza Page:Inisparran, Clare, to Warrnambool, Victoria,

Post by Lyn Coyne » Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:07 pm

Thomas,

I will join you in trawling through the RC Clonrush Parish records on the NLI website. These were not available when I last tried to do some searching some years back.

I feel confident that Eliza Page and Pat Wall who were sponsors at the baptism of Peter Wall in 1847 will be my great grandmother and her cousin, probably the brother of Marianne Wall who was to be a witness at her marriage in 1858.

I like your theory that the early Page settlers in East Clare were brothers of the Thomas Page who married George Clarke's sister Kathleen, and therefore brothers-in-law of George Clarke.

I do feel that there would have been blurring of the religious boundaries over the years and that is why I believe it is important to have a look at the C of I Registry held by the RCB in Dublin, as Professor Elliott suggests.

Lyn

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