Kilmaley baptisms 1832-1843, Bridget Fraly

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murf
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Kilmaley baptisms 1832-1843, Bridget Fraly

Post by murf » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:24 am

Many thanks to John Mayer for his recently presented transcriptions of the Kilmaley Parish baptisms 1832-1843, at
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... jmayer.htm
Within I found the baptism of my g. grandmother Bridget Fraly, 17 Feb 1843, which had previously eluded my best efforts to locate it. I noted with interest that John had been unable to decipher the mother's maiden name (given as Sarah Ca....)
I had some time ago extracted from the International Genealogical Index on familysearch the christenings of Pat, Michael and Jane Fraly, children of Michael Fraly and Sarah (or Sally) Cammel. Now the name Cammel appears to be extremely rare, only three occurrences in all Ireland in 1901 census. This makes me wonder if this may have been a mis-transcription.
A further clue is the place of residence (given as Rathcrona(sic)). All other records I have for Michael Fraly(or Frawley) place him in the townland of Lehaknock(also in Kilmaley Parish). In Griffiths Valuation the townland of Rathcrony had six occupiers, two of which had the surname of Cahill.
So from this I suspect that Cammel may be a mis-transcription of Cahill, and that Michael's wife Sarah originated from Rathconry, and that they resided in Rathconry for a period after their marriage. Confirmation of this theory may come if John Mayer is planning to extend his transcriptions beyond 1843, which should pick up other members of Michael and Sarah's family.
It is interesting also to note that the spelling variants Fraly and Fraley had virtually disappeared by the 1901 census, being replaced totally by Frawley.

johnmayer
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Re: Kilmaley baptisms 1832-1843, Bridget Fraly

Post by johnmayer » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:02 pm

Murf,

Well I went ahead and looked at the next few years and found in Feb. of 1847: Pat of Michael Fraly and Sarah Cammel. Sponsors are Patrick Cammel and Mary McGuire. It is clearly written as Cammel in both instances. If you would like to e-mail me, I will send you the screen shots of both entries, and any others I may find. Dundeemayer@comcast.net.

John

murf
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Re: Kilmaley baptisms 1832-1843, Bridget Fraly

Post by murf » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:07 pm

My suspicion of a mistranscription proved to be incorrect. As you say John, the Baptism of Pat Fraly in 1847 clearly shows the surname Cammel for both the mother Sarah and the sponsor Pat Cammel (probably a brother of Sarah).
In the 1901 census, Sarah, then an 80 yo widow, gives her birthplace as Co Clare, but apart from these Kilmaley baptisms I can find no other reference to this family name in the Co Clare sources. Has anyone any knowledge of this name in connection with Clare?

mcreed
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Re: Kilmaley baptisms 1832-1843, Bridget Fraly

Post by mcreed » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:44 am

In 1868, a Mary Cammell from Meelick/St. Patricks parish in County Clare, was searching for her sister Ellen, who was married to "Patrick Riley Of Parish Kilfinora, Co.Clare" in the Boston Pilot http://infowanted.bc.edu/record/?recid=38363

There is no reference to a Cammell in either the Tithes, Griffiths or 1901 Census for County Clare. See the "Combined list of surnames which occur in the 1901 Census of Population of County Clare, the Griffith's Valuation 1855 of County Clare, and the Tithe Applotment Books (1820s-1840s) for County Clare, including the number of occurences for each surname collected in each source. "
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... mbined.htm

murf
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Re: Kilmaley baptisms 1832-1843, Bridget Fraly

Post by murf » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:52 pm

Well thanks, that's another occurrence of the name in Clare, but it would seem difficult to show any connection with Sarah and Pat. It is quite possible that Pat emigrated. There are several of that name in the migration lists. Sarah died at Lehaknock in 1902. I suppose the best that I can say for her origins is that she was born in Clare.

johnmayer
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Re: Kilmaley baptisms 1832-1843, Bridget Fraly

Post by johnmayer » Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:13 pm

Murf,

I am currently working on 1863 Kilmaley Baptisms and found Pat Cammel as a sponsor on March 17, for the baptism of Mary Corrie, the daughter of John Corrie and Anne Boland of Bealcragga.

murf
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Re: Kilmaley baptisms 1832-1843, Bridget Fraly

Post by murf » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:01 am

Thanks for that John.
Now that the parish registers are available online courtesy NLI, I am able to view that entry in the twinkle of an eye.
Come to mention it, I am a little surprised this latter momentous event has yet to engender some enthusiasm on this forum.
Murf

ROJAMC42
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Re: Kilmaley baptisms 1832-1843, Bridget Fraly

Post by ROJAMC42 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 7:12 pm

MURF

SEE IF THESE HELP

1843 Feb. 17 Frawley Bridget Michael Ca….. Sarah Thomas Frawley & Bridget Markham Rathcrona
1854 Dec. Frawley Simon Michael Cammel Sally John Qualey and …y Frawley Lehaknock XR - Fraly
1854 Dec. Frawley Catherine Michael Cammel Sally Pat Kelly and Suzanne Hehir Lehaknock
ALSO
1849 Jun. Fraly Michael Michael Cammel Sally Pat Markham & Jane Cammel Lehaknock
1847 Feb. 4 Fraly Pat Michael Cammel Sarah Pat Cammel & Margaret McGuire Lehaknock XR Frawley
1852 May. Fraly Jane Michael Cammel Sarah John Kelly & ??? Cammel Lehaknock

ROJAMC42
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Re: Kilmaley baptisms 1832-1843, Bridget Fraly

Post by ROJAMC42 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:26 pm

MURF

JUST LOOKED IN THE KILMALEY GRAVEYARD THAT'S ON THE CLARE LIBRARY SITE, THANKS TO JOHN MAYER, THERE IS A MICHAEL & SAHAH FRAWLEY, ie,
Frawley Michael 4/15/1885 77 Photo Erected by Sarah Frawley for her husband Michael who died 15th April 1885
THERE'S MORE. U MIGHT TRY IT.
SEEMS SOMEWHERE I SAW THAT THE NAME SPELLING CHANGED !

BOB MCN

murf
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Re: Kilmaley baptisms 1832-1843, Bridget Fraly

Post by murf » Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:20 am

Thanks Bob
I did already have this info courtesy of John Mayer's transcription efforts
I have made no further advances re the Cammel family
Cheers, Murf

ROJAMC42
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Re: Kilmaley baptisms 1832-1843, Bridget Fraly

Post by ROJAMC42 » Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:26 am

MURF,

NOTE THAT THE FIRST 3 LINE ITEMS ARE LAST NAME "FRALY" AND THE LAST 3 ARE "FRAWLEY"

BOB MCN

murf
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Re: Kilmaley baptisms 1832-1843, Bridget Fraly

Post by murf » Sun Mar 13, 2016 10:04 pm

Yes, in my original post to this thread I made note of the fact that the variants Fraly and Fraley of the Frawley family name had fell into disuse by the 1901 census. I haven't heard the Irish pronunciation of the names Fraly and Frawley, but I rather suspect that they are indistinguishable.
In the case of this family it could be that one priest spelt the name Fraly and another spelt it Frawley, hence the different spellings in the register.
Note that when my g grandmother Bridget was baptised in 1843 the name was spelt Frawley. When she was married in 1864, the marriage certificate showed her name as Bridget Fraley, and when my grandmother was born in 1867 her mother's name was shown on the birth certificate as "Bridget Phillips fomerly Fraly".

M. McNamara
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Re: Kilmaley baptisms 1832-1843, Bridget Fraly

Post by M. McNamara » Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:38 pm

I'm presently going through the Sixmilebridge baptism & marriage registers starting in 1829 with a view to posting them in the Clare Co. library website. It is a slow but fascinating task. The registers include entries by Fr. Cornelius Clune PP (born c. 1770, educated in France) and Fr. Thomas Quinn VP (born c.1805, educated in the newly opened Maynooth) Fr. Clune died in Sixmilebridge in c. 1844, Fr. Quinn went on to be PP in Inagh-Kilnamona. There are many things in the register that are of interest and deserve to be written about. One of them, relevant to this topic, is the difference in the spelling of surnames by the two priests. The younger priest's spelling is closer to or is the same as modern spelling, for example (with the elder priest's version first), Fraly/Frawly, McInerheny/McInerny, Kough/Keogh, Couny/Cooney, Hallaran/Halloran etc. Therefore, it would appear that the standardisation of the spelling of Irish surnames was a drawn out process in the 1800s and probably culminated by the time of Griffith's Valuation in c.1850. Furthermore, it has been a given that the misspelling of Irish surnames in the English speaking countries/colonies was a result of a phonetic transscription of the names by immigration officials. Undoubtedly true in many occasions, the above would suggest that the same surnames were spelled in different ways before the emigrant left Ireland.

murf
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Re: Kilmaley baptisms 1832-1843, Bridget Fraly

Post by murf » Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:17 am

The priest's identity was not generally recorded in the Kilmaley baptism register, but the sequence of spellings of the Fraly/Frawley name supports the supposition that different priests favoured different spellings. The Fraly/Fraley variants disappeared after 1858, and from 1860 onwards Frawley was used exclusively.
I admire your tenacity in taking on the Sixmilebridge transcriptions, a monumental task. I am sure there will be many looking forward to seeing them appear in due course. Good luck with that. :shock:

ROJAMC42
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Re: Kilmaley baptisms 1832-1843, Bridget Fraly

Post by ROJAMC42 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:10 pm

MURF
RAN ACROSS THIS SITE Irish Genealogy http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... search.jsp?

IT SEEMS CAMMEL OR VARIATIONS THEREOF MAY COME FROM "DUBLIN"

WHEN CHECKING THIS SITE IT MAY LOOK LIKE THERE IS NO ASSOCIATION WITH CAMMEL, MOVE THE CURSOR OVER THE NAME AND CAMMEL IS IN THE RECORD, ie, SPONSOR.

HOPE THIS WORKS

BOB MCNAMARA

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