niece/nephew = grandchild ?

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pwaldron
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Re: niece/nephew = grandchild ?

Post by pwaldron » Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:07 am

Another example:

In 1901, Delia Whelan, aged 5, born in Co Clare, was described as niece of Margaret Walsh, aged 50, in Sragh at
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... h/1078537/

In 1911, Bridget Whelan, aged 13, born in Jersey City, was described as stepdaughter and Margaret Walsh, aged 65, was described as mother-in-law of Patrick O'Neill, in Sragh at
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... gh/360958/

Although the name, implied birth year, birthplace, relationship to Margaret Walsh and the spelling of the townland name are all different, I believe that these two records refer to the same person. Once again, niece in 1901 means granddaughter.

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Re: niece/nephew = grandchild ?

Post by pwaldron » Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:18 am

Another example - a girl with the same name and same implied birth year and from the same townland as the previous example, although their relationship at best is distant:

In Glascloon in 1901, Bridget Whelan (3) was a niece of James Foran, Sr. (65) and James Foran, Jr. (27) was also in the household:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... n/1080122/

In Glascloon in 1911, Bridie Whelan (13) was a niece of James Foran, Jr. (37) and James Foran, Sr. was gone:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... on/365194/

In 1901, niece means granddaughter.

Bridget's parents were living in S(h)ragh with their other 10 children:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... h/1078572/
and
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... gh/360957/

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Re: niece/nephew = grandchild ?

Post by pwaldron » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:13 am

Another example:

Given the age gap of 56 years between head of household Mary Ryan (60) and her "niece" Mary Walsh (4) at http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... n/1080111/ in 1901, I was immediately suspicious that the child was a granddaughter of Mary Ryan née O'Keefe, rather than her literal niece, who would have to be a sister's child.

Sure enough, Mary Walsh is missing from her parents' household in 1901 at
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... e/1078366/
but reappears in 1911 at
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... re/360785/

Mary Walsh's paternal grandmother is correctly described as Honor Walsh, mother, in her son's household in 1901, but in 1911 she is described as Honor OBrien, mother-in-law. O'Brien was her maiden surname.

Mary Walsh's maternal grandmother again has a young grandchild, Daniel Cahil [one L], staying with her in 1911, but the relationship is described correctly as "Grand Son":
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... on/365198/

However, Daniel Cahill [two Ls] is double counted in 1911, as he also appears with his parents and paternal grandmother:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... re/360782/

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Re: niece/nephew = grandchild ?

Post by pwaldron » Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:26 pm

murf wondered back on Christmas Eve whether there was a gender bias either in the numbers of children living with uncles, aunts or grandparents or in the usage of wrong English terminology to describe these relationships. I thought it might be time to do a count of the examples above, and so far there are 15 nephews and 16 nieces listed, so no evidence of any sort of gender bias.

However, none of the 16 nieces had a sister in the same household, but the 15 nephews included one set of 5 brothers, two sets of 2 brothers and only six singletons.

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Re: niece/nephew = grandchild ?

Post by pwaldron » Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:54 pm

For completeness, here's an example of a nephew wrongly described as a son, in a household where the head indicates that he is a bigamist. One of his so-called wives must be his sister-in-law, and the order of the entries suggests that his so-called son is far more likely to be his nephew:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... t/1082249/

I think this is probably the same family in 1911, although they have moved and there are large age discrepancies for the parents:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... gh/360955/

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Re: niece/nephew = grandchild ?

Post by pwaldron » Fri May 01, 2015 11:16 pm

Another example:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... e/1080175/

Norah Hanrahan, described as niece of Margaret Connell, was her granddaughter, born in Jersey City, NJ on 18 Nov 1886 to Michael Hanrahan and Annie (O')Connell and baptized Honora Hanrahan on 21 Nov 1886.

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Re: niece/nephew = grandchild ?

Post by pwaldron » Sun May 03, 2015 3:35 am

A Kerry example:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... re/272838/

Mary and Annie Teresa Woulfe were both granddaughters of the head of household Ellen Woulfe, but are both described as niece on the handwritten return; one has been mistranscribed as "Aunt"!

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Re: niece/nephew = grandchild ?

Post by pwaldron » Thu May 21, 2015 4:35 pm

Here's a surprising example from a county Limerick family of mixed religion and with no knowledge of the Irish language. Being of Palatine descent, they probably knew more German than Irish.

In 1901 at
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... g/1487220/
Elizabeth Sparling (0) and Margaret Vokes (3) were both described as "nieces" of Elizabeth Sparling (56).
The younger Elizabeth was granddaughter of the older, as can be confirmed in the same household in 1911:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... eg/615949/

The other "niece" Margaret Vokes was actually a stepgranddaughter, i.e. a stepdaughter of the older Elizabeth's daughter. In 1911, Margaret is again in the Sparling household with her stepmother's brothers. The older Elizabeth Sparling is now in the Vokes household with her daughter, son-in-law and six Church of Ireland grandchildren, along with two more Catholic stepdaughters of her daughter Ann:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... ka/642238/

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Re: niece/nephew = grandchild ?

Post by pwaldron » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:34 pm

I don't seem to have mentioned this one before:

In 1911, Bridget and Johanna Burns, daughters of Richard Burns and Johanna O'Shea, are double-counted, as daughters with their parents in Ballyartney at
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... ey/362175/
and as niece and nephew [sic] with their maternal grandparents in Lack West at
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... st/366053/

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Re: niece/nephew = grandchild ?

Post by pwaldron » Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:59 am

Another example:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... in/365367/
Thomas Mahony (9) appears to have been Mary Clancy (75)'s grandson and not her nephew as described.

His mother and his other four siblings are at
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... gh/361766/

In 1901, his mother was twice wrongly described with her parents-in-law at
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... h/1079401/
First, she was entered as "wife", and that was changed to "daughter", which appears in the transcription. It should clearly be "daughter-in-law".

Finally, Ellen Quealy, who was Mary Clancy's 70-year-old sister in 1911, had been her 50-year-old "aunt" in 1901 at
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... n/1080294/
(the aunt 16 years younger than the niece!).

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Re: niece/nephew = grandchild ?

Post by pwaldron » Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:46 am

In Cloughaunbeg East in 1901, Michael and Honor Whyte's household included his "Niece" Molly Tubridy (11):
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... t/1078191/

By 1911, Honora Whyte had been widowed. Her household now included "Grand Daughter" Mary Tubridy (23):
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... t_/360621/
Despite the two-year age discrepancy and the change from nickname to official name, it seems clear that this is the same person.

Also in the household in 1911 was a second "Grand Daughter" named Nora Tubridy (2), whose birth I cannot identify at civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie.

Mary Tubridy, daughter of Joseph Tubridy and Bridget Whyte, was baptised in Kilmurry Ibrickan parish on 12 Sep 1888. Her parents and siblings can be found in Doonogan, at
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... n/1079252/
and
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... an/361636/
Joseph Tubridy and Bridget Whyte did have a younger daughter Norah (1 in 1901, 12 in 1911), but she is hardly the two-year-old of the same name enumerated with her grandparents in 1911.

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Re: niece/nephew = grandchild ?

Post by pwaldron » Sat Sep 26, 2015 12:16 am

Another example in a Church of Ireland family where nobody spoke Irish:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... un/363661/

Cissie O'Donnell was the daughter of John George O'Donnell and Rachel Brew, but was described as `niece' by her maternal grandparents.

Her parents and their other four children were at home in Doonmore:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... re/365173/

murf
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Re: niece/nephew = grandchild ?

Post by murf » Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:32 pm

Here's another one for your list Paddy.
Terrence O'Brien, 2 yo nephew of Head of Household Margaret Lyons in Ballyduff More in 1901 http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... e/1072296/

becomes her 13 yo grandson in 1911. http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... re/356585/

I haven't tracked down his parents.

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Re: niece/nephew = grandchild ?

Post by pwaldron » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:24 am

Another example:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... t/1078620/
Margaret McGrath (18) is described as "niece" of William Carey (70).

She was his granddaughter, daughter of Thomas McGrath (52) and Johanna Carey (50), who are at
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... g/1078443/
with five more children.

A seventh McGrath child Michael (13) was visiting his aunt Ellen Corry née Carey at
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... y/1076366/

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Re: niece/nephew = grandchild ?

Post by pwaldron » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:14 am

Another example from Limerick:

Patk. Mann was a "nephew" in his grandfather's household in 1901:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... t/1495707/

By 1911, his grandparents were gone, his uncle was head of household, but Patrick Mann was stil a nephew:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... st/624405/

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