Looking for Mathew O'Brien--1835-1845

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Doug
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Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:20 am

Looking for Mathew O'Brien--1835-1845

Post by Doug » Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:36 pm

I am looking for information on one Mathew O’Brien and his wife Mary Scully. Mathew emigrated to America sometime after September 1839 and I believe before 1 June 1840. Subsequent to his emigration and before the rest of the family could join him Mary died.
Based on a research report we received from The Clare Heritage Center the following Baptismals were found.
? BAPTISED 30-12-1833
SPONSORS Patrick Moroney

Thomas BAPTISED 04-12-1837
SPONSORS Martin O’Dea & Bridget Hogan

William BAPTISED 06-12-1840
SPONSORS Mary McMahon”

It is unfortunate that the priest neglected to record the first child’s Christian name for the 1833 baptism.

I think at this point I will interject some discussion about Mathew’s arrival in Virginia and William’s birth date. I have located a Mathew O’Brien in the 1840 Federal Census for Virginia, Bedford County, Southern District. The data for the 1840 census was suppose to be taken as of 1 June that year and the enumerators had 18 months to gather the data. As you can imagine having that much time between effective date of the census and gathering of the data could lead to errors. It is entirely possible for Mathew to be in Bedford County for that census and still be the father to William. If we believe this scenario then Mathew could not leave Clare until late September 1839 at the earliest and must have arrived in the Bedford area of Virginia by late May 1840.
Returning to the Baptismal Registers we can now locate Mathew and Mary O’Brien. The children were baptized in what is today known as the ecclesiastical Parish of Bodyke-Tomgraney which at one time comprised the old Civil Parishes of Kilnoe-Tomgraney. The priest recorded the family’s address as Knockbrack. Knockbrack is a subdivision of the bigger townland of Drummod. Drummod is a townland situated in the old Civil Parish of Kilnoe(Bodyke). If you review an Ordnance Survey map of that time period you will see that Drummod was sited just over a mile south of the village of Bodyke.
Another comment by the researcher was that sponsors were often close relatives of the family and based on that they examined the above listed sponsors in the hope of uncovering a connection between these families and the families of O’Brien and Scully.

In examing those records they found a Connor Hogan and his wife Norry O’Brien who resided at Knockbrack. The researcher believes there is a possibility that Norry O’Brien was a sister to Matthew O’Brien. Additionally the records show a Thomas Hogan whose wife was Mary Scully also residing at Knockbrack. They believe this Mary Scully may have been a relative to Mathew’s wife Mary Scully. Unfortunately the researcher gave no clue as to why they believe this is a possibility.

The researcher also examined the Tithe Applotment Land Records for the old Civil Parish of Kilnoe which were dated 1827. There was no evidence of an O’Brien holding in either the townland of Knockbrack or Drummod at this time. Please note this does not mean that O’Briens were not living in the townland but only that they held no titheable property.
From a study of the Tithe Applotment Books for the area they found just one Scully holding in the Parish as follows:
A John Scully was shown holding 1 acre of 2nd Quality land and 2 acres 2 roods 20 perches of 3rd quality land. This property was situated at Clonmoher, which is a townland situated about 3 miles north of Knockbrack/Drummod. Again without backup information the researcher states “there is reasonable possibility that John Scully listed at Clonmoher in 1827 may have been the father of your great-great-grandmother Mary Scully.”

The last land records evaluated were the Griffith Valuation Books of 1855. This valuation was undertaken to determine the amount of tax each tenant should pay towards the support of the poor within his Poor Law Union. In addition to giving the name of the occupier or tenant it provides the name of the immediate lessor, the name of the townland or city location, the area and value of holding and the value of the house. These records contain the names of every householder and every occupier of land during this period. After reviewing these records they failed to uncover any evidence of an O’Brien holding at Knockbrack/Drummod at this time. There were also no Scully’s holding/leasing property at Clonmoher in 1855.
Douglas Burnett
Satellite Beach
Florida

Paddy Casey
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Matthew O'Brien

Post by Paddy Casey » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:31 pm

Doug,

If I understand correctly this information you posted is the report from the CHC.

Have you found additional information in the Clare Library datasets ?

Paddy

Doug
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:20 am

Mathew O'Brien

Post by Doug » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:29 pm

Good Morning Paddy
I have not found any new info on the library website. I was hoping that since the report is almost 10 years old that maybe new information had surfaced and someone could provide a direction to continue to search. We are going to be in Dublin the first week in NOV and plan on going to NAI and NLI. We then will spend a week operating out of Limerick and I plan on visiting the Clare Library as well as Bodyke and some of the area names associated with the report.
Doug
Douglas Burnett
Satellite Beach
Florida

jjaob
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Location: Shannon, Co. Clare
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Matthew O'Brien, Knockbrack

Post by jjaob » Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:03 pm

Hi Doug and Paddy,

I have been working with Doug on this. Family tradition has it that Matthew came from Knockbrack. At the time Matthew resided at Knockbrack the whole of the townland was the property of John O'Callaghan i.e the O'Callaghan-Westropp Estate.

The Rental Books for this Estate exist from 1830 onwards in the Ms. section of the National Library.

If Matthew is not listed in the Rent Books I can onlly assume that he was an agricultural labourer and was working for some farmer or perhaps a realative. The original researcher could be right in saying that there is some clue in the names of Matthews children's sponsers.

Patrick Moroney and the Hogan that is married to an O'Brien are likely contenders.

Any other ideas?

John O'Brien

Doug
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:20 am

Post by Doug » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:38 am

Good Evening John
We just got back to FLorida from a short vacation. Did some Square Dancing in North Carolina and then a weeks worth of research in Tennessee. We had a productive week working on my wife's family. I have to get that sorted out and then get back to working on my Irish connection so I will be ready for the trip this fall.
For your diary we are booked into the Marriott in Limerick fm 7-14 Nov. Hopefully we might meet for lunch or dinner while in the area.
We will have our own transport.
Douglas Burnett
Satellite Beach
Florida

smcarberry
Posts: 1159
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:31 pm
Location: USA

Matthew O'Brien sought by family

Post by smcarberry » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:33 pm

Doug,

Let's throw some more data into the pot and see if it helps. There is an
online version of the books which contain a Boston newspaper's column
published in the 1800s in which anyone could post that a relative or friend
had not been heard from and needed to re-establish contact. Most U.S.
libraries have that multi-volume set or can obtain it on interlibrary loan,so
if the below online version seems good, I would urge you to get the
published version. This is the link for the online version:

http://infowanted.bc.edu/search/

I have seen the Hogan and Moroney connection before in East Clare.
Now that I know that my own O'Connell family had an intermarriage
with a Johanna Moroney in the 1840s, I will be keeping an eye out for
Moroney data.

I show below some O'Brien listings from the online version of Missing Friends, involving the same Virginia area as you gave for your
Mathew.

Sharon Carberry

Seeker:
James O'Brien
Relation to missing: Brother
Residence: IL, Shelby Co, Shelbyville
Date of advertisement: 07-05-1856
Person sought:
Mathew O'Brien of Bodique, Clare
departed 1842
1st location: Va., Campville Co. [likely: Campbell Co., Virginia]

Seeker:
Thomas O'Brien
Relationship to missing: Father
Contact Names: Nolan, Morgan
Contact address: NJ, Jersey City
Date of Advertisement: 10-25-1856
Person Sought:
Mathew O'Brien of Limerick
[no parish info given]
1st location: Va, Lynchburg

Doug
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:20 am

Post by Doug » Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:33 pm

Good Morning Sharon-at least in Florida it is morning
Thanks so much for this info. I am now trying to find a site which I have access to which has this newspaper as part of its database.
The James O'Brien sounds very promising and I am hoping the newspaper ad may contain more information.
The second one is close--mainly since it list Lynchburg. I have gone through the census carefully for Campbell County(contained Lynchburg back then) as well as Bedford and Amherst(adjacent counties). There were two Mat O'Briens and I am not convinced they are the same. The age difference was to great in my mind to be a census taker error.
Again Thanks so much for looking this up and sharing.
The Search Goes On
Doug
Douglas Burnett
Satellite Beach
Florida

smcarberry
Posts: 1159
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:31 pm
Location: USA

James O'Brien of Shelbyville IL

Post by smcarberry » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:10 am

I have a likely prospect for Mathew's brother James who posted in 1856
a Missing Friends ad and stated his address as Shelbyville IL. The 1860
census for Shelby County IL has this family:

Rose township, post office: Shelbyville
O'Brien
James 30 Ire RR laborer
Mary 25 "
Bridget 7 "
Julia 2 IL

I cannot find them in 1870 but the 1880 census has a couple of the right
ages in a neighboring county, with children born in/after 1860:

1880 IL Coles Co., Stockton
O'Brien
James 51 Ire Section boss [that's an RR term]
Mary E. 47 "
William F. 20 IL RR agent
Elizabeth 16 "
James 14 "
Cornelius 12 "
Mary A. 9 "
two boarders, both single laborers:
McGough, John 50 Ire
Casey, James 46 Ire

A brief look in the 1900 census for Illinois-born O'Briens named William
and Cornelius (Condy or Corny) failed to show any in the U.S. of a
suitable age. I also didn't find the parents. The Illinois Statewide
Marriage Index has several Bridget and Julia O'Brien marriages in
the 1870s, which could be further researched. The gap in these first
girls' ages suggests the birth of another child, which could have been a
son named Thomas who then died young. Shelby and Coles were then
very rural and the burial could have been very informal, and the gen. sites at the county level now are not detailed enough to provide cemetery
burial info. Coles County was the place where Abe Lincoln grew up in the famous log cabin.

Sharon Carberry

Skyrish2us
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:39 pm

Re: Looking for Mathew O'Brien--1835-1845

Post by Skyrish2us » Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:07 am

For many years I have been looking for information about one Bridget Scully a direct ancestor of mine. I came across this post recently and believe there may be a connection with your family. My Bridget Scully and your Mary Scully may have been related. My Bridget Scully married a John Hogan and lived most of her life in Blackhill, County Clare which is not far at all from Knockbrack. All the names you mention in your post figure in my research and my Hogans married into families with these surnames. My Hogans married McMahons and Moroneys and O'Briens. I realise that these names are common in Ireland but the close proximity of the families in Clare leads me to believe that it is possible that there may have been a connection. Do you know any more about your Mary Scully? The Clare Heritage centre provided me a report but the Scully branch was omitted.

Doug
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:20 am

Re: Looking for Mathew O'Brien--1835-1845

Post by Doug » Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:06 am

I have no more information on the family. I am still looking but so far negative results. If you think info about the family that I have might help you I will be glad to share. I realize to some extent that is the age old how do I ask for something when I don't know what you have. The majority of what I have is after the O'Briens get to Va. I have also connected with descendants of the member of the family that went to Texas. Hopefully we will be able to share information. Not sure what else I can offer right now but am open to suggestions.
Happy New Year and may we all have good luck in the new year with our family searches.

Douglas Burnett
Satellite Beach
FL
Douglas Burnett
Satellite Beach
Florida

Skyrish2us
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:39 pm

Re: Looking for Mathew O'Brien--1835-1845

Post by Skyrish2us » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:25 am

I suspect now that your Mary Scully and my Bridget Scully may have been sisters and that my Bridget was the sponsor named as Bridget Hogan (she married John Hogan) on the baptism in 1837.

smcarberry
Posts: 1159
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:31 pm
Location: USA

Re: Matthew O'Brien sought by family

Post by smcarberry » Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:11 pm

smcarberry wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:33 pm
....
Now that I know that my own O'Connell family had an intermarriage with a Johanna Moroney in the 1840s, I will be keeping an eye out for Moroney data.
....
End of quote

Today's posting, 13 Sep 2021:
It took only 14 years, but now DNA is a factor in this puzzle. I match with 4 living descendants of a Moroney of Kilnoe: two sisters, their male first cousin, and their niece. Not all four are fully disclosing DNA data, but I share with one sister 17 cM on Chromosome 9, right side, a very common sharing I have with Irish descendants.

I have traced back their lineage to James Moroney who, with wife Anne [Mc]Carthy, had their first son John baptized 10 Apr 1841 in the Parish of Kilnoe while residing at "Dromode" (Drummod). Their wedding had occurred 20 Jan 1839 in the Parish of Sixmilebridge, undoubtedly the Carty-Carthy-McCarthy home parish, where the witnesses were Maurice Connell (my family ?) and Charles McCarthy, subsequently listed as Anne's father in U.S. records and also as a Sixmilebridge freeholder in 1825 and 1841. Anne's sister Mary married, Sixmilebridge Parish 1844, to John Egan and also emigrated to the U.S. Anne went on a familiar path through Ohio to Wisconsin, and then permanently settled in Texas, while her sister Mary settled in Iowa.

A few Moroneys stayed in Drummod: 1901 (widow Mary age 80, two adult children Patrick & Kate), and Catherine in 1926.
If anyone knows of descendants of those individuals, kindly post or message me with contact info as I would like to arrange for further DNA testing.

Trying to pick up the thread of my earlier reference to a Connell-Moroney marriage, I think it involves the O'Callaghan's Mills Parish 4 Jul 1839 baptism of a child of James Connell and Judy Moroney, for which one sponsor was James Moroney, the next baptism for a child of that couple being on 7 Aug 1840, another on 10 Aug 1842, another on 6 Nov 1844, another on 2 Feb 1846, another on 14 Nov 1847 (name Johannah instead of Judy as in all prior ones), and a final one (mother Judy) on 18 Dec 1853, all while the family resided at Cappalaheen. Children of that marriage went to Connecticut, California, and Australia. James Connell married a second time, with some children of that marriage emigrated to Connecticut and England.

Sharon Carberry

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