Charles McCarthy & Emilia Gill of Ennistymon/Liscannor

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pjcr
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Charles McCarthy & Emilia Gill of Ennistymon/Liscannor

Post by pjcr » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:12 pm

Hi All

I'm currently researching my family history and I'm fairly certain that my grandmother's grandfather & grandmother were Charles McCarthy and Emilia Gill. Interestingly my mother had always said that her grand mother's people had opened the first Post Office in what she thought was Liscannor. When I searched familysearch, just about the only match for a Charles & Emilia was a marriage on 4 Feb 1864 in ..... Liscannor ! It might be a complete coincidence but it's all I have to go on at the moment. I have ordered that marriage cert and some birth certs as well, so we'll see. Anyway that marriage record mentioned her father as Edward Gill and his father as Florence McCarthy. I found two entries in Kilmanheen for Florence McCarthy (1820s-1840s Clare Tithe Applotment Books: Surname Index), which again sounds promising. The only detail I can find for an Edward Gill is on familysearch for an 1872 death.

Could anyone shed any light on the Gill and McCarthy families of that time, and the Post Office connection if possible ?

I note there is a book in the National Library called "Introduction to the post offices of County Clare, Ireland
by John Mackey and Tony Cassidy" http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000017141

Thanks

pwaldron
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Liscannor Post Office

Post by pwaldron » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:26 am

Tony Cassidy asked me to post this:
I cannot login to reply. Personally I find this is an incredibly difficult site to login - one of the worst - what is wrong with it? I usually give up when I could have supplied required answers.

Anyway, if you could possibly post a response mentioning my name as author of the book, the answer is: Sorry, but its a big NO

The names Charles McCarthy and Emilia Gill, who we are told married on 4 February 1864, do not appear in any form among the comprehensive records I now have for Liscannor.

The only thing that I can come up with is that perhaps a female relative of Emilia Gill married one of the Perry males.

The office opened in 1858 and I have details of all Sub Postmasters and Mistresses. From 1858 to 1894, it was in the hands of the Perry family. Then from 1894 to 1908 in the hand of Patrick Considine. Then from 1908 to 1970 in the hands of the Thynne family. That looks nice and steady until you look into their records.

One reason why the records are so comprehensive is that it had probably the worst record for misdemeanors and comings-and-goings among the Sub Postmasters and Mistresses among all of the Post Offices of Co Clare.

For the record: Office declared vacant means simply: Official was dismissed / sacked.

Peter Thynne and his comings-and-goings might be considered to be connected with Nationalist activities - we are told that he was arrested 27 July 1917 under the Defense of the Realm (Act). [otherwise DORA] - but why would he be allowed back so many times? Up 'til 1922 and the handing over to the Provisional Government / Free State, the British controlled Post Office system would have been extremely strict on that sort of thing.

Anyway I am attaching a copy [not for publication] of my modified Liscannor Post Office notes to give you the complete details of officials. The Sub Postmaster and Sub Postmistress details are complete and there are also details of many of the Postmen.

Best wishes

Tony Cassidy
Last edited by pwaldron on Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pjcr
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Re: Liscannor Post Office

Post by pjcr » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:35 pm

pwaldron wrote:Tony Cassidy asked me to post this:
I cannot login to reply. Personally I find this is an incredibly difficult site to login - one of the worst - what is wrong with it? I usually give up when I could have supplied required answers.

Anyway, if you could possibly post a response mentioning my name as author of the book, the answer is: Sorry, but its a big NO

The names Charles McCarthy and Emilia Gill, who we are told married on 4 February 1864, do not appear in any form among the comprehensive records I now have for Liscannor.

The only thing that I can come up with is that perhaps a female relative of Emilia Gill married one of the Perry males.

The office opened in 1858 and I have details of all Sub Postmasters and Mistresses. From 1858 to 1894, it was in the hands of the Perry family. Then from 1894 to 1908 in the hand of Patrick Considine. Then from 1908 to 1970 in the hands of the Thynne family. That looks nice and steady until you look into their records.

One reason why the records are so comprehensive is that it had probably the worst record for misdemeanors and comings-and-goings among the Sub Postmasters and Mistresses among all of the Post Offices of Co Clare.

For the record: Office declared vacant means simply: Official was dismissed / sacked.

Peter Thynne and his comings-and-goings might be considered to be connected with Nationalist activities - we are told that he was arrested 27 July 1917 under the Defense of the Realm (Act). [otherwise DORA] - but why would he be allowed back so many times? Up 'til 1922 and the handing over to the Provisional Government / Free State, the British controlled Post Office system would have been extremely strict on that sort of thing.

Anyway I am attaching a copy of my modified Liscannor Post Office notes to give you the complete details of officials. The Sub Postmaster and Sub Postmistress details are complete and there are also details of many of the Postmen.

Best wishes

Tony Cassidy
Thanks Tony for that colourful (!) history of Liscannor Post Office. There doesn't seem to be a lot of info on the Gill family. Hopefully the marriage cert will give some further info.

Would you know if there was a Post Office in Ennistymon as well by any chance ? If so, would you have any listings for that ? Thanks for your help.

topdog
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Re: Charles McCarthy & Emilia Gill of Ennistymon/Liscannor

Post by topdog » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:23 pm

Hi
Sorry for the delay
I can now log in easily (hallelujah) thanks to E Stackhouse.

Ref: McCarthy & Gill in Liscannor Post Office.
As I said earlier - sorry but no!
As for other surrounding post offices: Ennistymon 1779 to present; Lahinch 1843 to present; Doonagore 1902 to 1926; Kilshanny 1886 to 1988; Doolin 1848 to 2002, in each case the names McCarthy and / or Gill do not appear.

In the 1901 Census there were only 7 persons named Gill in the whole of Co Clare while by 1911 that had increased to 12 - in each case all living in Kilrush or Ennis Urban. Again we draw a blank for a Gill in the post office of either location.

In fact it is safe to say that no-one by the name of Gill was appointed as a postmaster or mistress in County Clare.

Dare I ask have you got the correct county? The name McCarthy sounds more possible for Co Cork - but I cannot help you with the post offices there

Tony Cassidy

pwaldron
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Re: Charles McCarthy & Emilia Gill of Ennistymon/Liscannor

Post by pwaldron » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:21 pm

By 1867, Charles McCarthy and Emilia Gill were having children in Annicariga registration district (around Killaloe and Ogonnelloe) and between 1871 and 1875 they were having children in Cork: see https://familysearch.org/search/records ... id=1584963

Liscannor is in Roadford registration district, so I suspect that the first Liscannor subpostmaster Edward Perry may be the same Edward Perry who married Eliza Coffey and had one child born in Roadford:
https://familysearch.org/search/records ... id=1584963

topdog
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Re: Charles McCarthy & Emilia Gill of Ennistymon/Liscannor

Post by topdog » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:56 am

Following up Paddy’s comments ref Killaloe & Ogonnelloe

Maybe we should try to “put this to bed” in terms of service in the Post Office in Co Clare.
We were originally looking for Charles McCarthy and Emilia Gill servin as Postmaster at Liscannor in the 1840-1860 period

I have already indicated that they are not listed as have served as Postmasters at Liscannor nor offices within approx 10 miles radius, i.e. Lahinch / Ennistymon / Kilshanny / Doonagore or Doolin.

I have already suggested that perhaps a female relative of Emilia Gill married one of the Perry of Liscannor males

P Waldon wrote
By 1867, Charles McCarthy and Emilia Gill were having children in Annicariga registration district (around Killaloe and Ogonnelloe) and between 1871 and 1875 they were having children in Cork: see https://familysearch.org/search/records ... id=1584963

I am afraid that for Killaloe and Ogonnelloe, as to serving as Post Masters the same applies – not listed. Ogonnelloe can definitely be excluded as it did not open until 6 July 1897!

That leaves some very distant possibilities
(1) If relatives, they worked as unpaid (and unrecorded) assistants.
(2) They served as paid assistants employed directly by the Postmasters (and therefore unrecorded) rather than be employed by the General Post Office

(3) Charles McCarthy was employed as a Postman / Mail Car Driver or similar
(4) Emilia Gill was employed as an official Post Office Clerical Assistant or Telegraphist
[(3) and (4) would not have been recorded on Post Office 303 records; nor would they appear in the Postmaster General’s Minute books unless they committed a misdemeanour that warranted dismissal or a court case]



Note: In all, cases for Postmaster read also Postmistress or Sub Postmaster or Sub Postmistress as appropriate. It is worth noting that for a period in the first half of the 20th Century all persons in charge of a Post Office were officially known as Postmasters whether male or female!

Clare Admin
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Re: Charles McCarthy & Emilia Gill of Ennistymon/Liscannor

Post by Clare Admin » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:15 pm

As regards the comment from Tony Cassidy
I cannot login to reply. Personally I find this is an incredibly difficult site to login - one of the worst - what is wrong with it? I usually give up when I could have supplied required answers.
please note that I have created a new announcement on the forum to help anyone who simply forgets their login details. It is important to bear in mind that all passwords are case sensitive. Clare Admin

pjcr
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Re: Charles McCarthy & Emilia Gill of Ennistymon/Liscannor

Post by pjcr » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:51 pm

Apologies to you both topdog and pwaldron for not replying sooner but I was waiting on copies of certs for

1. The marriage between Charles McCarthy and Emilia Gill .... 4th Feb 1864
2. The birth of Mary McCarthy (my g-grandmother i believe), daughter of Charles and Emilia ....12th Nov 1864
3. The birth of Justin McCarthy, son of Charles and Emilia .... 5th October 1876
4. The birth of Ellen Murphy (my grandmother), daughter (I believe) of Mary McCarthy Murphy

4. It looks like Ellen Murphy's birth wasn't registered, so I'm going to have to confirm the McCarthy-Murphy link from another angle.

However, going on the assumption that the McCarthy - Murphy link is right,

3. Justin's cert shows Charles McCarthy and Emilia Gill as parents with a Mary McCarthy as being present at the birth, in Cork. Charles is down as a labourer.

2. Mary's cert shows Charles and Emilia again, but Charles profession is down as an RIC Constable, so it looks like he was from Cork but stationed in Clare. The address is Liscannor and what looks like Kilmserce or Kilinserce or Kilma arce ???

1. Charles and Emilia marriage cert shows them married in Liscannor Church. He's 30, she is 18 (!). Again Charles is a Constable while his father Florence (deceased) was a coastguard. Emilia's father Edward was a farmer. I checked Griffiths Valuation and there were 12 Edward Gills from Mayo, Meath, Derry, Kildare, Donegal and Westmeath. Unfortunately none from Clare. In the 1901 census, Emilia puts Co. Galway as her birthplace.

So it looks that if there is a post office connection then it might be through a sister marrying a postmaster rather than anything else. Otherwise my relatives mistook post office for police office !

My next task is to get on to the Garda museum and find the record for Charles McCarthy.

Thank you both for you help.

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