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 Post subject: Scariff - Monahan
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 1:33 am 
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Location: Saint Paul, USA
Several years ago the Clare Heritage Center sent me a report stating, more or less, that there was no factual basis supporting the family story that the Monahans of Central Falls, Rhode Island, came from Scariff, Clare, Ireland. Since then, I found:
1. My Grandfather, Edward F. Monaghan's naturalization petition stating he was born in Clare.
2. His sister, Bridget Monahan's naturalization petition stating that she was born in Scariff, County Clare and that her mother's name was Ellen Flannery.
3. Their sister, Annie Monahan's, ship manifest entry from 1899 stating that her last place of residence was Scariff. She was traveling with at least two other women from Scariff.
4. Annie's ship manifest entry from 1923 stating that her closest living relative, her brother Michael Monaghan, resided at Scariff, Clare.

Given all this, why have I been unable to get any Irish information about the Monahan/Monaghan of Scariff, Clare? It is a puzzlement.

Michael Monahan


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 Post subject: Re: Scariff - Monahan
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 11:38 am 
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Location: USA
In reply to your question, timing may play a part. Your query to the Clare Heritage Center was made some years ago, before the current wave of digitized records. Monahan/Monaghan is not a native Clare family, so it is likely that there are at best only a few scattered record entries in the filmed parish entries, which include records only up to 1880. Thus a researcher trying to find a comprehensive picture of a Monahan family in Clare records using only the filmed records might have been unable to see a match with your family's data.

Now however Clare birth registrations can be viewed: http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsea ... html#start
You will see a few records before 1880, then some in Ennis, and eventually in the range of 1920-40 or so, the Scariff group emerges. Remember that it is possible for some baptisms to go unrecorded or perhaps a baptism was done outside of Clare. If there were Monahan families in the Whitegate area, Galway registrations should be consulted for the 1800s.

Another possibility to note is that the CHC's transcriptions were made many years ago as part of an employment effort to include youth of the county. So far as I know, there has been no effort made to make corrections as errors have become known. My own review of a CHC report of particular baptisms compared with the actual parish film showed mistakes in transcribing names and skipping entries. You may want to consult the involved films yourself.

Sharon Carberry
USA


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 Post subject: Re: Scariff - Monahan
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 11:03 pm 
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Location: Ballina, Killaloe
Sharon is unduly defensive of the Clare Heritage Centre, which indexed all surviving Clare parish records up to 1900 away back in the 1980s. The records available on microfilm stop at 1880, but the indexing used the original registers, not the microfilms.

On the other hand, I suspect that the CHC may have done its best with the available records and Michael's original information in this case. There do not seem to be any Mona(g)hans in the Scarriff area in the censuses of 1901 or 1911. But the area is full of Flannerys. So my guess is that Ellen Flannery married a Mona(g)han and went to live with him in some other part of the county or country. Bridget, particularly if she was the eldest child, might have been born in her Flannery grandparents' home. And if there was no Flannery to inherit the home place, it might have been passed on to Michael Monaghan some time between the 1911 census and the 1923 manifest entry. Pure speculation on my behalf, particularly as Michael hasn't given enough dates to enable any checking of my hypotheses.

But, as Sharon says, there is very little evidence in online records of the Monahan-Flannery connection.

Could there have been a change of surname for some reason?

Remember also that the boundary between counties Clare and Galway was moved southwards in 1898 and that the area around Whitegate and Mountshannon now in Clare was in Galway before 1898.


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 Post subject: Re: Scariff - Monahan
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 4:00 pm 
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Location: Saint Paul, USA
I agree that my post lacked important information. So here is what I have:

1. The CHC report I mentioned was from 2000.

2. Grandfather, Edward Francis Monaghan, aka Edmond, Edmund; b. 20 Nov. 1866, County Clare; d. 30 Jan 1933, Rhode Island, USA. First arrived in USA in June 1882 at Boston per his naturalization petition. In 1911, he arrived in Boston from "Queenstown" aboard the Franconia in the company of two of his daughters suggesting a family visit to Ireland.

3. His sister Bridget Monahan, b. May 1871, Scariff, County Clare, to Edward Monaghan and Ellen Flannery per naturalization petition. She lived with, and worked as a bookkeeper for, her brother for a considerable period before disappearing from census records.

4. Their sister, Annie Monahan, b. 1873 (?). In 1899, she arrived in New York in the company of Bridget McMahon and Helene Thornton aboard Etruria, all three listed their place of birth as Scariff, County Clare. (Also aboard this ship was Julia Higgins listed as from "Scarriff"). Annie stated her age as 26 and that she was going to her sister, Bridget Monahan, at Central Falls, Rhode Island.

5. In 1923, Annie arrived at Boston traveling aboard "Sanaria" stating: her age as 38 (making her date of birth 1885 not 1871); her place of birth as Scariff, County Clare; her last place of residence as Dublin; that she was last in USA in 1913, her closest relative, Michael Monaghan, resided at Scariff, County Clare, and that her final destination was to her brother Edmond Monahan at Central Falls, Rhode Island.

Does any of this help examine the dead end I have experienced so far with Irish sources? I recognize that Monaghan/Monahan is not a common Clare name but Flannery certainly is and a few Monahans appear to have lived around Ennis.

Michael Monahan


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 Post subject: Re: Scariff - Monahan
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 4:27 pm 
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Location: Ballina, Killaloe
Hi Michael

In 2000, the CHC had access to full indexes of surviving Clare parish registers, so should have been able to find the Mona(g)han/Flannery family if any of the children was recorded in a surviving baptismal register anywhere in the county (including areas once in Galway but now in Clare and areas in Limerick in parishes which straddle the county boundary).

As I understand it, your birth information is all from secondary sources, and none of it has been confirmed in primary sources.

You should try to find confirmation in nationwide civil birth records. If your birthdates and birthplaces for Ed, Bridget and Annie are correct, then all three (like any births in the 32 counties of Ireland between 1864 and 1880) should appear at both
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsea ... ionDetails
and
https://familysearch.org/search/collect ... ed-records

My quick efforts to locate them have so far failed. For example, according to familysearch.org, there are five Ed* Mona*han births registered in Ireland in 1866 or 1867, but all of them are in Ulster. See if you have any more success.

I must admit that I am just as baffled as you about this! I suspect a complicated solution, like a lot of moving around, or a change of surname, or blatant understating of ages.

Paddy


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 Post subject: Re: Scariff - Monahan
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 5:13 pm 
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Paddy:

Would it have made a difference to CHC that I only had Ed's information in 2000? I did not learn about the Flannery connection until 2005, more or less, and the rest of the information only recently.

Michael Monahan


Last edited by puritanlane on Sat May 21, 2011 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Scariff - Monahan
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 8:33 pm 
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Location: Saint Paul, USA
This morning - 0900 hours local time - I received a telephone message from Antoinette O'Brien of the Clare Heritage Center saying that she had found birth information for my grandfather, Edward, and his brother, Michael, and sister, Annie. During our subsequent telephone conversation Ms. O'Brien gently pointed out that the reason for my inability to find the information was that Edward was, in reality, Edmund Minogue, date of birth Dec. 1866, who somehow became Edward Monaghan upon his arrival at Boston in 1882.

Given this development and given that my first post could be interpreted as a complaint about CHC rather than merely whining about my lack of success, I withdraw the post without reservation. I have nothing but praise for CHC in general and Ms. O'Brien in particular.

I also congratulate Paddy Waldron for correctly predicting the main source of my frustration.

Finally, I pledge never again to whine about Irish record-keeping.

Michael Monahan or perhaps Minogue.


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 Post subject: Re: Scariff - Monahan
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 10:18 pm 
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Location: Ballina, Killaloe
I too may have been a little harsh in this case on the CHC!

It must be quite a shock to find that one's family has been using the wrong surname for generations!

We should all have consulted Edward MacLysaght's `The Surnames of Ireland' (Dublin:Irish Academic Press):
(p.219, 6th ed., 1985)
(O) Monaghan Ó Manacháin (manach, monk). A numerous name
mainly found in the counties adjoining the original homeland of the
sept (as Map). It is also numerous in Fermanagh where it is said to
be of Oriel origin. IF Map Roscommon. See Minogue and
Monks.
(p.217)
(O) Minogue, Minnock Ó Muineóg. Woulfe's derivation from Manach,
monk, is not generally accepted but is to some extent corroborated
by the fact that Mannix and Monaghan are used as synonyms of it.
It is an east Clare sept, which spread across Lough Derg from
Ballyminogue to north Tipperary. MIF Map Clare.

The CHC and similar bodies presumably already look for the Minogue/Monaghan/Monahan equivalence in all their searches.

By coincidence, I knew the late Peig Roche née Flannery, daughter of James Flannery and Bridget née Minogue of Ballinrooaum (see 1911 census). (Bridget's maternal uncle Thomas Frost married my GGGaunt Margaret Kett in 1873.)

Paddy


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:53 am 
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A recent query prompted me to return to this thread.

The surname Mannix did not occur in Clare in the Tithe Applotment Books, but there were seven households in Griffith's Valuation, and then just one in 1901 and 1911, in the townland of Drummin:

http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... mbined.htm
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... fithm2.htm
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... n/1083621/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... in/366859/

The surname Molyne(a)ux in Kerry is pronounced very like Mannix (with an audible X at the end, and not in the French style!).

I suspected from the wide variation in numbers that there must be a synonym of Mannix in regular use in Clare. Sure enough, MacLysaght and de Bhulbh both say that is an anglicisation of Ó Mainchín, from the same root as Munchin. MacLysaght says further that this name can also be anglicised as Manahan and Manihan and that "Mannix is sometimes used for Minogue in east Clare".


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 Post subject: Re: Scariff - Monahan
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:14 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:31 pm
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A few specific examples of Mannix and Minogue being interchangeable in Clare:

1. The Rootsweb "mailing list" for County Clare has at least one posting by a family member about the use of both surnames;

2. See attachments, one self-explanatory as to source and the other is an excerpt from Tom McDowell's transcription from Ellis Island ship arrivals database, organized by civil parish and now part of the Library's donated material (online).

I keep a computer file for "Mannix, Minogue" in which I found a Scarriff reference, adding potentially another placename for the Minogue research under discussion - see third attachment, Mrs. William Mannix. Boucher is a rare surname in Clare, with its alternative spelling of Bouchier, basically a family of the gentry/landlord class.

Sharon Carberry
Attachment:
Mannix aka Minogue, 1890s Feakle.jpg
Mannix aka Minogue, 1890s Feakle.jpg [ 14.87 KiB | Viewed 305 times ]
Attachment:
Minogue 1920 Parteen probate, sis Tynan.jpg
Minogue 1920 Parteen probate, sis Tynan.jpg [ 21.21 KiB | Viewed 305 times ]
Attachment:
Mannix, Mrs.Cath,89 d.1902, nee Tuohy, Scrf, dMA.jpg
Mannix, Mrs.Cath,89 d.1902, nee Tuohy, Scrf, dMA.jpg [ 43.6 KiB | Viewed 305 times ]


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