In my search for my GGG Grandfather Matthew/Mathias Fitzpatrick whom I know from 1840 until at least 1849 lived in Ballyea, he might have still been there as of 1880 as his daughter Catherine ( my GG Grans ) married in the parish of Clarecastle in late September of that year. Research lead me to 4 Matthews in Clare.
1) b.1804 d. 1884 (Ennis), 2) b. 1818 d. 1908 ( Ballyvaughan), 3) b. 1827 d. 1879 ( Ennistimon) and 4) b. 1839 d. 1914 ( Ennistimon)
Now, while trying to makes connections to probable Father and Siblings I found the 1825 Tithe Applotment book a Matthias that had land at Tullassa, Drumcliff; Illane, and another in Kilfarboy as well. What I would like to know is...... Is there any reason I should ( with info I have ) consider that any one of other then the 1804 Matthew/Matthias could own this land ? Also, how typical was it for a person to lease several properties in places which are not exactly close to one another. I know the 1839 Mathias had land in Kilfarboy in 1901 and yet I found his actual residence to be in Gleninagh. I do already believe that there is another Mathias/ Matthew prior to 1804 floating about but until I find born then a hunch based off a naming pattern I am not adding him into the fray..
Hope someone can help, Danielle
Questions on owning land in 1820's
Moderators: Clare Support, Clare Past Mod
Re: Questions on owning land in 1820's
Hi Danielle
Remember that many of those listed as landholders in the Tithes died before 1864, so that they don't show up in civil registration indexes.
If you get a photocopy (4 euro) of the 1880 marriage record it may say that the bride was living at Ballyea and may make it clear whether or not her father was still living (sometime deceased fathers are not marked as such, so not all marriage certificates provide definitive proof).
Likewise, a photocopy of the 1884 death record may make it clear whether or not the deceased was from Ballyea.
See http://www.groireland.ie/fees.htm for more on ordering photocopies.
If you have four different dates of death, you are obviously looking at four different namesakes.
There are two townlands called Ballyea in County Clare, one in Killone civil parish, which is in Ennis Poor Law Union for purposes of BMD registration; the other is in Kilmacrehy parish and Ennistimon PLU.
You obviously have sources that you have not mentioned in your initial message; the more information you provide, the more likely there will be someone who can answer your questions.
Best wishes
Paddy
Remember that many of those listed as landholders in the Tithes died before 1864, so that they don't show up in civil registration indexes.
If you get a photocopy (4 euro) of the 1880 marriage record it may say that the bride was living at Ballyea and may make it clear whether or not her father was still living (sometime deceased fathers are not marked as such, so not all marriage certificates provide definitive proof).
Likewise, a photocopy of the 1884 death record may make it clear whether or not the deceased was from Ballyea.
See http://www.groireland.ie/fees.htm for more on ordering photocopies.
If you have four different dates of death, you are obviously looking at four different namesakes.
There are two townlands called Ballyea in County Clare, one in Killone civil parish, which is in Ennis Poor Law Union for purposes of BMD registration; the other is in Kilmacrehy parish and Ennistimon PLU.
You obviously have sources that you have not mentioned in your initial message; the more information you provide, the more likely there will be someone who can answer your questions.
Best wishes
Paddy
Re: Questions on owning land in 1820's
Hi Paddy, I have to admit I am at my wits end trying to reply this is my 3rd attempt as the other two time I hit submit it tells me I need to login again and wipes everything I've written away! So I am going to up load John and Catherine's Wedding record 1st then write everything out again. As you can see that it doesn't designate Matthew as dead, but with what I have to this point logically Matthew's death would be registered in Ennis. I can't say it would surprise me if my GGG Grandfather died and it wasn't indicated.
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Re: Questions on owning land in 1820's
Third time is the charm right ? I recieved the Wedding record of John and Catherine in late March 2010 and I submitted a request to the clare Heritage center in April, a month later. From April until late December 2010 I had come up with the 4 death record indexes from familysearch.org and located 3 Matthew Fitzpatricks.
The first Matthew was found on an 1855 Griffith valuation having land in Kilfarboy near a Michael Fitzpatrick and Michael Fitzpatrick Junior.. For a while I thought this was my GGG as he was the only one I could find anywhere in Co.Clare. Even when I found him on the 1901 Census and figured his birth to be about 1839 when I was working with a January 1854 birth for Catherine I thought" Well stranger things have happened.".. This Mathias/Matthew is the son of Michael and Anne Sexton, the eldest of 7 the last being Michael in 1852. Mathias married a little later in life close to 1870 to a Margaret"Peggy" Lynch and had several children himself,none were a Catherine.
The second came in the form of forum posts by a Dale Piercey whom is a descendant of James Fitzpatrick and Maria Commane. It is believed that the Matthew he found married to a Catherine/Sarah Hassett with daughters Mary and Margaret baptized in Ballyglass, Doora in 1841 and 1843. This Matthew is said to be James and Maria's eldest of 11 children thought to be born about 1818. Now, James, Maria and 8 of the 10 recorded children that lived past childhood imigrated to Australia about 1850, though there is no indication of Matthew and his family doing so nor is there any records showing Matthew and Catherine having any other children in Ballyglass. I have talked to other descendants who cannot find any other information on this couple and think they might have immigrated to the US but I havent found anything on this end that makes me believe this is so either.
The third Matthew again came from forum posts and emails with descendants. I think could be one or both of the 1825 Mathew/Mathias's in the Tithe Applotment book. He married a Bridget Stack and has been traced to Ballard their eldest is a Helen in 1834 their youngest Michael in 1852. No Catherine anywhere in site and no inkling that there could be a child unaccounted for after Michael.
The final Mathew came to me in late December from the Clare Heritage Center. They provided me with Mathew and Anne O'Connor whom had 4 daughters on record all baptized in the Parish of Clarecastle with the Parish records indicating that this family lived in Ballyea. The baptisms are as follow; Bridget Nov 6,1840, Catherine Jan 10,1843, Anne Sept 5 1845 and Ellen Nov 15 1849.
Dispite the fact that I only had the date of a tenative birth of Jan 1854 for Catherine from the 1900 US Census from Manhattan where John and Kate moved to in November 1881 and this Catherine is 10 yrs older, I am 95% sure that this is my family. The connection to Clarecastle, the fact that she has an older sister Bridget whom probably married a McNamara and was the witness on the Wedding record,it explains why I have struck out 5 times on searches for Kate's death record in New York and why they only had one child, luckily a son in March 1883 and Kate said she only had the one pregnancy as of 1900 too. The most tell tale thing is this is the only Catherine born to a Matthew on record.
On the report from the Heritage Center it has a Thomas Fitzpatrick as Anne and Ellen's male Sponsor meaning that there is a connection and I also found a Patrick whom had land in Ballyea Middle and North.These two names are found with a Mathew paying on land at Tullassa, Drumcliff in the 1825 Tithe Applotment Book database at this site along with a Michael and Denis. I figured that somehow this bunch was related on some level to the Matthew on some level, then I found that Drumcliff is part of the Ennis district and also tied to the Killone/Clarecastle Parish, this bolstered my feeling of a possible family connection not only to each other but possibly my family; another factor is based on what I have and found, the name Matthew/Mathias was not a popular name at this time I would say it seems likely the name was given for a tie to relative, perhaps a naming pattern is in place.
I know that I have read the family members can inherit their family's land this is a large reason why I am curious to know if there were any conditions to this type of inheritance ? Could a minor aged child be willed lands? As I am toying with the idea that the 5 Fitzpatricks in Tullassa are brothers with a father named Matthew who may have died prior to 1825. My other question on how commons was it that a land owner/leasee having, ( lets say ) a home in Kilfarboy and farmlands in Drumcliff? If this was typical it could potentially lead to the revelation if yet an other Matthew not on record. So, I am hoping that this information will help. If there is anything in particular that is needed, please do tell me, if I have it I'll give it to you.
Thank you for your help, Danielle
The first Matthew was found on an 1855 Griffith valuation having land in Kilfarboy near a Michael Fitzpatrick and Michael Fitzpatrick Junior.. For a while I thought this was my GGG as he was the only one I could find anywhere in Co.Clare. Even when I found him on the 1901 Census and figured his birth to be about 1839 when I was working with a January 1854 birth for Catherine I thought" Well stranger things have happened.".. This Mathias/Matthew is the son of Michael and Anne Sexton, the eldest of 7 the last being Michael in 1852. Mathias married a little later in life close to 1870 to a Margaret"Peggy" Lynch and had several children himself,none were a Catherine.
The second came in the form of forum posts by a Dale Piercey whom is a descendant of James Fitzpatrick and Maria Commane. It is believed that the Matthew he found married to a Catherine/Sarah Hassett with daughters Mary and Margaret baptized in Ballyglass, Doora in 1841 and 1843. This Matthew is said to be James and Maria's eldest of 11 children thought to be born about 1818. Now, James, Maria and 8 of the 10 recorded children that lived past childhood imigrated to Australia about 1850, though there is no indication of Matthew and his family doing so nor is there any records showing Matthew and Catherine having any other children in Ballyglass. I have talked to other descendants who cannot find any other information on this couple and think they might have immigrated to the US but I havent found anything on this end that makes me believe this is so either.
The third Matthew again came from forum posts and emails with descendants. I think could be one or both of the 1825 Mathew/Mathias's in the Tithe Applotment book. He married a Bridget Stack and has been traced to Ballard their eldest is a Helen in 1834 their youngest Michael in 1852. No Catherine anywhere in site and no inkling that there could be a child unaccounted for after Michael.
The final Mathew came to me in late December from the Clare Heritage Center. They provided me with Mathew and Anne O'Connor whom had 4 daughters on record all baptized in the Parish of Clarecastle with the Parish records indicating that this family lived in Ballyea. The baptisms are as follow; Bridget Nov 6,1840, Catherine Jan 10,1843, Anne Sept 5 1845 and Ellen Nov 15 1849.
Dispite the fact that I only had the date of a tenative birth of Jan 1854 for Catherine from the 1900 US Census from Manhattan where John and Kate moved to in November 1881 and this Catherine is 10 yrs older, I am 95% sure that this is my family. The connection to Clarecastle, the fact that she has an older sister Bridget whom probably married a McNamara and was the witness on the Wedding record,it explains why I have struck out 5 times on searches for Kate's death record in New York and why they only had one child, luckily a son in March 1883 and Kate said she only had the one pregnancy as of 1900 too. The most tell tale thing is this is the only Catherine born to a Matthew on record.
On the report from the Heritage Center it has a Thomas Fitzpatrick as Anne and Ellen's male Sponsor meaning that there is a connection and I also found a Patrick whom had land in Ballyea Middle and North.These two names are found with a Mathew paying on land at Tullassa, Drumcliff in the 1825 Tithe Applotment Book database at this site along with a Michael and Denis. I figured that somehow this bunch was related on some level to the Matthew on some level, then I found that Drumcliff is part of the Ennis district and also tied to the Killone/Clarecastle Parish, this bolstered my feeling of a possible family connection not only to each other but possibly my family; another factor is based on what I have and found, the name Matthew/Mathias was not a popular name at this time I would say it seems likely the name was given for a tie to relative, perhaps a naming pattern is in place.
I know that I have read the family members can inherit their family's land this is a large reason why I am curious to know if there were any conditions to this type of inheritance ? Could a minor aged child be willed lands? As I am toying with the idea that the 5 Fitzpatricks in Tullassa are brothers with a father named Matthew who may have died prior to 1825. My other question on how commons was it that a land owner/leasee having, ( lets say ) a home in Kilfarboy and farmlands in Drumcliff? If this was typical it could potentially lead to the revelation if yet an other Matthew not on record. So, I am hoping that this information will help. If there is anything in particular that is needed, please do tell me, if I have it I'll give it to you.
Thank you for your help, Danielle
Re: Questions on owning land in 1820's
Hi Danielle
I would still like to see the photocopies of the death records!
My first hunch on looking at the marriage certificate was that John McNamara, the coachman, and Catherine Fitzpatrick, the housemaid, were probably both working for the O'Gormans of Buncraggy. I checked Griffith's Valuation and confirmed that the O'Gormans then occupied the whole townland of Buncraggy, in which there was only one house. By the 1901 census, there were four other much smaller houses in the townland.
Thomas O'Gorman and Margaret Agnes Kelly of Buncraggy had a daughter Alice born in the first quarter of 1878. Depending on the number of servants in the house, the housemaid's duties might have included looking after the two-year-old daughter of the house in 1880. Alice's son, Dr (William) Giles Keane, aged 90, is still living, in England.* His interest in family history might not extend to the servants who looked after his infant mother, but there's no harm in asking. I'll send you the last address I have for him in a private message.
The servants in Buncraggy House could have come from anywhere, inside or outside the parish of Clareabbey, but would probably have married in Clarecastle, wherever they originated.
The second thing to note from the marriage certificate is that both fathers were laborers (American spelling was contaminating Clare English even back in 1880!). This means that they would have held a tiny amount of land, if any.
A third potentially significant observation is that the O'Gormans of Buncraggy are buried in Kilfarboy, 34km to the west. So they might have recruited housemaids from Kilfarboy.
It is unusual that the 62-year-old Matthias in the 1901 census appears initially to have been enumerated twice, in different parishes. In Kilcorcoran, he was living alone, said he was married, could read and write, and proved it by signing the return. In Fermoyle West, he was living with his wife and children, could NOT read, and proved it by marking the return with an X! So maybe there really were two different exactly contemporary namesakes. But, if they were, where was the wife of the Kilcorcoran man?
By 1911, there was only one male Mat* Fitzpatrick older than 15 in Clare, now in the townland of Ardnacullia South, a widower, lame, able to read and write, living as a boarder with the McInerney family. But in Fermoyle West, the illiterate Mary Fitzpatrick was now a widow, living with three of the same children that were living with herself and Matthias in 1901.
So I think it's slightly more likely that there were two different exact contemporaries with the same name than just one trying all sorts of inconsistent tricks to conceal a marriage breakdown!
I also think that it's unlikely that any of these would be the same person listed in Griffith's Valuation in 1855, as it is unlikely that a 16-year-old would be a registered occupier in 1855.
Your message would be easier to follow if you specified the precise townland as well as the parish for each Fitzpatrick family that you refer to, especially those in Kilfarboy parish, where there seem to have been several families! There are townlands called Ballard in both Killard and Killinaboy parishes, many miles apart.
Finally, to avoid losing your work, see if you can find a box to tick saying you wish to remain logged in indefinitely, and/or type your message in your favourite autosave-enabled text editor and copy and paste it to the forum when it is complete!
Hope this helps
Paddy
*Dr. Giles Keane died on Sep 19, 2011. R.I.P.
I would still like to see the photocopies of the death records!
My first hunch on looking at the marriage certificate was that John McNamara, the coachman, and Catherine Fitzpatrick, the housemaid, were probably both working for the O'Gormans of Buncraggy. I checked Griffith's Valuation and confirmed that the O'Gormans then occupied the whole townland of Buncraggy, in which there was only one house. By the 1901 census, there were four other much smaller houses in the townland.
Thomas O'Gorman and Margaret Agnes Kelly of Buncraggy had a daughter Alice born in the first quarter of 1878. Depending on the number of servants in the house, the housemaid's duties might have included looking after the two-year-old daughter of the house in 1880. Alice's son, Dr (William) Giles Keane, aged 90, is still living, in England.* His interest in family history might not extend to the servants who looked after his infant mother, but there's no harm in asking. I'll send you the last address I have for him in a private message.
The servants in Buncraggy House could have come from anywhere, inside or outside the parish of Clareabbey, but would probably have married in Clarecastle, wherever they originated.
The second thing to note from the marriage certificate is that both fathers were laborers (American spelling was contaminating Clare English even back in 1880!). This means that they would have held a tiny amount of land, if any.
A third potentially significant observation is that the O'Gormans of Buncraggy are buried in Kilfarboy, 34km to the west. So they might have recruited housemaids from Kilfarboy.
It is unusual that the 62-year-old Matthias in the 1901 census appears initially to have been enumerated twice, in different parishes. In Kilcorcoran, he was living alone, said he was married, could read and write, and proved it by signing the return. In Fermoyle West, he was living with his wife and children, could NOT read, and proved it by marking the return with an X! So maybe there really were two different exactly contemporary namesakes. But, if they were, where was the wife of the Kilcorcoran man?
By 1911, there was only one male Mat* Fitzpatrick older than 15 in Clare, now in the townland of Ardnacullia South, a widower, lame, able to read and write, living as a boarder with the McInerney family. But in Fermoyle West, the illiterate Mary Fitzpatrick was now a widow, living with three of the same children that were living with herself and Matthias in 1901.
So I think it's slightly more likely that there were two different exact contemporaries with the same name than just one trying all sorts of inconsistent tricks to conceal a marriage breakdown!
I also think that it's unlikely that any of these would be the same person listed in Griffith's Valuation in 1855, as it is unlikely that a 16-year-old would be a registered occupier in 1855.
Your message would be easier to follow if you specified the precise townland as well as the parish for each Fitzpatrick family that you refer to, especially those in Kilfarboy parish, where there seem to have been several families! There are townlands called Ballard in both Killard and Killinaboy parishes, many miles apart.
Finally, to avoid losing your work, see if you can find a box to tick saying you wish to remain logged in indefinitely, and/or type your message in your favourite autosave-enabled text editor and copy and paste it to the forum when it is complete!
Hope this helps
Paddy
*Dr. Giles Keane died on Sep 19, 2011. R.I.P.
Last edited by pwaldron on Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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smcarberry
- Posts: 1282
- Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:31 pm
- Location: USA
Re: Questions on owning land in 1820's
Regarding the very earliest Matthew Fitzpatrick in your posting, there is a bit more information online for him and an apparent relative Michael Fitzpatrick, since both those men were unsuccessful defendants in eviction cases involving Kilfarboy property. In the Donated Material section of the Genealogy portion of the Library's website, there is a database that I contributed, listing the main details contained in a report in a British publication called the Parliamentary Papers. My posting about that database, plus guidance on how to get to the actual court case for all the reported details, appears at: http://www.ourlibrary.ca/phpbb2/viewtop ... =ejectment
I should also mention that post-1855, you can consult the Valuation Office (Dublin) "canceled book" listings for each of the townland locations inhabited by a Fitzpatrick, to see when and to whom the property passed. Dublin also has the Deeds office, which has books detailing the transfer of property dating back to 1708, with finding aids arranged by surname and by property location. There is an ongoing project (Registry of Deeds Index Project organized by fellow Clare descendant Nick Reddan) to place online details that lead to those transactions. I checked it for any Fitzpatrick of Clare, but none appears:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... ame088.htm
Hope this helps. I realize that it doesn't address the generation that you most immediately need.
Sharon Carberry
I should also mention that post-1855, you can consult the Valuation Office (Dublin) "canceled book" listings for each of the townland locations inhabited by a Fitzpatrick, to see when and to whom the property passed. Dublin also has the Deeds office, which has books detailing the transfer of property dating back to 1708, with finding aids arranged by surname and by property location. There is an ongoing project (Registry of Deeds Index Project organized by fellow Clare descendant Nick Reddan) to place online details that lead to those transactions. I checked it for any Fitzpatrick of Clare, but none appears:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... ame088.htm
Hope this helps. I realize that it doesn't address the generation that you most immediately need.
Sharon Carberry