Please help us locate Clare descendants we could meet there

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gvary
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Please help us locate Clare descendants we could meet there

Post by gvary » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:57 pm

We (husband, wife, adult son) are arriving in Shannon on September 18 for our first trip to Ireland. We would like to see if we can locate any of my wife's living relatives. What we know is that one set of her maternal great-grandparents was Honore Mitchell and William Ryan of Kilnaboy, Corofin, Clare, and her maternal grandmother was Delia Ryan, born November 8, 1880. Her other set of maternal great-grandparents was Margaret Sheedy and Patrick Toohey of Cappabane, Scariff, Clare, and her maternal grandfather was Patrick Toohey, born April 3, 1879.

Any help you can provide to point us in the direction of identifying living relatives would be most appreciated. Perhaps one or more of the panelists at your upcoming genealogy session on August 24 has some thoughts.

Thank you for any assistance you can provide.

Liz, George and Crispin

Paddy Casey
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Re: Please help us locate Clare descendants we could meet there

Post by Paddy Casey » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:58 pm

gvary wrote:We (husband, wife, adult son) are arriving in Shannon on September 18 for our first trip to Ireland. We would like to see if we can locate any of my wife's living relatives. What we know is that one set of her maternal great-grandparents was Honore Mitchell and William Ryan of Kilnaboy, Corofin, Clare, and her maternal grandmother was Delia Ryan, born November 8, 1880. Her other set of maternal great-grandparents was Margaret Sheedy and Patrick Toohey of Cappabane, Scariff, Clare, and her maternal grandfather was Patrick Toohey, born April 3, 1879.
Note that the family name is spelled Tuohy in Clare. There are large numbers of Tuohys in the present-day Clare phone book at http://www.eircomphonebook.ie/search/re ... tuohy.html , many of them around Scariff. There are no Tooheys in the phone book.

Also, your Cappabane may be Cappaghabaun, a locality in the Scariff area.

Here's a first step: if you go to the Clare Library website at http://www.clarelibrary.ie and trawl their data you will find the 1901 census of Cappaghabaunpark at http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... k131_2.htm and there you will see the Tuohy family, parents Patrick Tuohy and Margaret Tuohy, with their children who were there on the night of the census. Patrick, born April 3 1879, is not listed but he may have been out of town on the day of the census or may even have emigrated at that young age. In the Index to Biographical Notices in the Clare Champion newspaper 1935-1985 at http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... piont2.htm you will see that a Patrick Tuohy of Cappabane, Scariff died 30-May-1980 in England. The newspapers containing those biographical notices are held at the Local Studies Centre, Clare County Library, The Manse, Harmony Row, Ennis (see http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/librar ... studi1.htm ). Ink in a lot of time during your Clare visit for browsing there. Specifically, check out that newspaper entry to see whether the Patrick Tuohy who died in England was "yours" and, if so, where he died. You might find his descendants there in England. The one in the Biographical Notices was a bit old to be "yours" but you never know.

This might get you started on the Tuohys. Proceed in an analogous manner with the Ryans, Mitchells and Sheedys. There is a lot more on that website for you to get through before September 18th.

Paddy

gvary
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Re: Please help us locate Clare descendants we could meet there

Post by gvary » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:30 pm

Thank you, Paddy, for the search advice. It is possible Patrick had already come to the States at that point, as we know he got here around the turn of the 20th century. He died and is buried in New York, so he is not the one who died in England.

Would those sources allow you to track descendants who might still be in the area?

Liz, George and Crispin

Paddy Casey
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Re: Please help us locate Clare descendants we could meet there

Post by Paddy Casey » Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:56 am

gvary wrote:Would those sources allow you to track descendants who might still be in the area?
Liz, George and Crispin
gvary wrote:Would those sources allow you to track descendants who might still be in the area?
Liz, George and Crispin
Yes, working forwards in time from the old records can allow you to pinpoint the exact place they came from and, in turn, that allows you to focus your search for living relatives geographically. They may have moved away or even emigrated but many didn't. I have found several living people this way. However, unless you have some stroke of luck it usually requires hard work delving in the old records. Much of that delving can be done on-line, much of that thanks to the records at http://www.clarelibrary.ie

Basically, you have to decide whether you have the time and inclination to do this work. Personally I'd go for it but I don't know what else you have on your plate. And, as I keep repeating here, one should always remember the adage from the Way of Zen: the journey is more important than the destination. Put another way, you'll have fun searching and will almost certainly find lots of new information about your ancestors even if you don't nail down those present-day descendants.

Here is an example of geo-focussing: you refer to William Ryan of Kilnaboy, Corofin. County Clare is crawling with Ryans so you might think you have a difficult task. But a dabble in the Clare Library site will quickly reveal the records of the Griffith's Valuation of 1855 and there, in the alphabetical list of Ryans at http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... fithr3.htm you will see that there was a John Ryan in the townland of Drummoher in the parish of Killinaboy (note the variant spelling of Kilnaboy) in the union of Corrofin (again, note the variant spelling of Corofin). So now you have a possible townland for your Ryans. If you then go to the 1901 census of Drummoher at http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... r16_16.htm you will see that the Ryans were still there. Then, in the Index to Biographical Notices at http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... pionr3.htm you will see a George Ryan of Crossard in Kilnaboy who married 26-Mar-1955. And guess what ? Crossard is right next to Drummoher (see the 1842 map on the Clare Library website at http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... 66DslT0|Fx ).

And then to Honora Mitchell. Go to the 1901 census of Corrofin Town at http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... 4_19_2.htm and there you will find a Mitchell family. Take it from there.

Use the Eircom phonebook (see above) to search for living names in "your" localities.

Remember to use variant spellings if a search attempt doesn't produce hits.

And so it goes on. I could go on and on and on but will leave it to you to do the homework.

Once you have localised your families with these searches the next step is to travel to Clare and knock on doors in the localities you have identified and ask about families of those names. Ask at post offices and pubs and, if the parish priest is about and has time*, ask him about your family names. Ask who is the oldest/most knowledgeable person in the area and then go and knock on her/his door. Knock, ask, knock, ask, knock, ask. You will have the time of your life and meet all sorts of interesting and welcoming people. You will drink more cups of tea than you thought possible and, as a consequence, as you drive around the County you will constantly be looking for hedges to go behind. It will be the experience of your life.

Paddy

* Please be gentle here. The parish priests are working all hours caring for the living and dying and recently dead so not all have ample time for the long-dead. But you'll pick up the vibes and be able to tune your requests accordingly.

pwaldron
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Re: Please help us locate Clare descendants we could meet there

Post by pwaldron » Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:39 am

A few quick follow-ups to the advice from Paddy Eile above ...

The England & Wales death index at http://www.ancestry.com will show you that the Patrick Tuohy whose death was registered in the second quarter of 1980 in Luton district was born on 28 Nov 1913.

His birth was registered in Scarriff Union early the following year:

Name: Patrick Tuohy
Registration District: Scarriff
Event Type: BIRTHS
Registration Quarter and Year: Jan - Mar 1914
Film Number: 101075
Volume Number: 4
Page Number: 311
Digital Folder Number: 4194694
Image Number: 00368
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958

If his father is the Jeremiah Tuohy (40, unmarried) in Cappaghabaunpark in the 1911 census, then Jeremiah appears to have gone to the neighbouring Portumna Union to find a bride:

Name: Jeremiah Tuohy
Registration District: Portumna
Event Type: MARRIAGES
Registration Quarter and Year: Jan - Mar 1913
Estimated Birth Year:
Age (at Death):
Mother's Maiden Name:
Film Number: 101262
Volume Number: 4
Page Number: 243
Digital Folder Number: 4199364
Image Number: 00467
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958

Above from http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsea ... name=tuohy and http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... rk/369180/

Searching the IGI at http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/ ... _form=true for children of Patrick and Margaret Tuohy (putting nationalist inclinations aside and looking in the British Isles) will show that Jeremiah's birth was registered under the alternative version Darby in county Galway and that he was born on 26 Apr 1873.

Bear in mind that the boundary between counties Clare and Galway in the area between Scarriff and Portumna was redrawn around the time of the introduction of the County Councils (1898 or thereabouts). Mountshannon and its hinterland was moved from Galway into Clare.

If you get Jeremiah's marriage certificate you'll be able to identify his wife and see if she was sufficiently younger than him that she might have left a dynasty of other descendants for you to track down on your visit.

gvary
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Re: Please help us locate Clare descendants we could meet there

Post by gvary » Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:40 pm

Thank you very much for your additional information. What I seem to have found is that Patrick and Margaret Tuohy (correct first names of the maternal great-grandparents according to my brother-in-law) were residents of Cappaghaunpark, Moynoe Parish and were listed in both the 1901 and the 1911 censuses. As Paddy suggested, the name Cappabane we were using needed searching for different spellings. Jeremiah was listed as a son, 27, in the 1901 census and a son, 40, in the 1911 census. [Dates seem not to match frequently]. The Tuohys were listed in the 1911 census as having had 8 children, 7 of whom were still alive. We believe my wife's maternal grandfather, Patrick, had already come to the States by 1911, and he probably was not at home for the 1901 count.

I have also located William and Honor Ryan (again, first names match and Honor is unusual) in the censuses in Killinaboy, not Kilnaboy as we were advised (thanks, again, Paddy). They had 11 children of whom 9 were living. While Delia, wife's maternal grandmother, is not listed in the 1911 census, she was in the 1901 census. Again, we believe she had already left for the States by 1911.

So, it looks like we've tracked the great-grandparents (and grandparents) to their homes. Armed with that, we will move on as you and Paddy have graciously suggested.

Again, our deepest thanks for your help.


Liz, George and Crispin

Paddy Casey
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Re: Please help us locate Clare descendants we could meet there

Post by Paddy Casey » Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:30 am

gvary wrote:Again, our deepest thanks for your help.
Liz, George and Crispin
Glad we could help you, Liz, George and Crispin.

If you are successful with your search and certainly if you manage to make contact with a living Clare relative please do come back to us here and let us know the results. The feedback is most important to us, firstly because it interests us and secondly because it might give some other Clare-searcher a leg-up in their quest.

Happy hunting !

Paddy

gvary
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Re: Please help us locate Clare descendants we could meet there

Post by gvary » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:12 pm

We have had good preliminary -- partial -- success. From the 1901 and the 1911 Census, we identified what we believed was the home of one set of my wife's great-grandparents, as the name of her grandmother was on the 1901 Census, listed as seamstress in that household in Crossard and we knew the grandmother came from that area. Another relative here in the States confirmed the grandmother was a seamstress, and another mentioned a relative had visited Crossard years ago and met a cousin, Liam, there,

Then, following the advice above, I went through the Clare phone directory online to find if any Ryans still lived in Crossard. One name came up and I have talked to him on the phone and his niece (who has e-mail). So far, this seems solid and we are progressing.

Having trouble with the Tuohys from Cappaghabaunpark, though. A whole lot of Tuohys in the phone directory and none listed there or Cappabane that I saw so, rather than a lot of expensive blind calls from the States, I have asked the Church for contact information for the parish church that covers Cappaghabaunpark/Cappabane and will try that route if I hear back from the Church.

Again, the advice above is much appreciated and has been vital to our progress to date. Any other ideas, please send them along.

Regards.

Liz, George And Crispin

Lou Gage
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Re: Please help us locate Clare descendants we could meet there

Post by Lou Gage » Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:07 pm

Most interesting series of posting. I too am flying into Shannon later in Sept. and am hoping to find some relatives. However, "my" Jones of either Feakle or Scraiff are a hard lot to sort out. Either my research has bad data or there were several different Jones families in the area. So, as Paddy says I will content myself with the journey. I am hoping to get some more research done at the 2 achurches Feakle or Scariff but am finding it tough to contact the Fathers. Does anyone know if the Clare Lib. has all the records of RC churches in its' collection or online. What I do know is William Jones b. 1862 lost a brother Matthew in 1879 in hurling acciedent. William migrated to USA in 1880's. Lots of holes to fill. Any and all help appreciated. Lou Gage George hope your visit is great! LouG

gvary
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Re: Please help us locate Clare descendants we could meet there

Post by gvary » Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:38 pm

I do not know if Clare library has that info. I contacted our local parish here in the States.

We were fortunate in that the geographic locales we knew about were relatively small, although I still have not located the one set.

Good luck.

George

pwaldron
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Re: Please help us locate Clare descendants we could meet there

Post by pwaldron » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:54 am

Clare County Library Local Studies Centre has the LDS microfilms of the Clare parish registers.

Did the filming stop at 1880 for all parishes?

Paddy Casey
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Re: Please help us locate Clare descendants we could meet there

Post by Paddy Casey » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:45 pm

pwaldron wrote:Clare County Library Local Studies Centre has the LDS microfilms of the Clare parish registers.

Did the filming stop at 1880 for all parishes?
I can't answer this general question but the baptism records of the parish of Tubber are filmed up to 23-Mar-1881 (date of the last baptism). The parish priest has no Tubber records between that date and 1890. Neither he nor I know why filming did not continue from 1890.

Some time back I made a determined effort to find out more about the microfilming project (e.g. Exactly who did the filming for the LDS ? Where did they do it - in situ in the parishes or at some central site ? How did they decide which dates to cover ? How were the records collected from the parishes ? Did they just film what each PP sent/gave them or did they have some dialogue with the PP to ensure that they were getting all the records from that parish ? Was a log of all these processes kept and, if so, where is it ? Were there written agreements between the Church (e.g. the dioceses) and the LDS and, if so, what did they cover ?). I was unable to find anyone with answers to these questions. Chats with people at the NLI drew a blank and I couldn't find anyone there who was about at the time of The Great Microfilming.

The answers are probably all in the vaults at SLC so that when we are all annihilated by the coming asteroid strike future visitors to our planet will be able to reconstruct the events.

Paddy

pwaldron
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Re: Please help us locate Clare descendants we could meet there

Post by pwaldron » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:54 pm

Paddy

The Irish Genealogical Research Society has a speaker from the LDS Church giving a lecture in Dublin on October 5. Remind me nearer the time to put all your questions to him!

\pw

smcarberry
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Re: Please help us locate Clare descendants we could meet there

Post by smcarberry » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:08 am

The choice of using 1880 as a cut-off date in the filming of RC parish registers in Ireland appears to have been a decision by the National Library of Ireland, which did the filming. LDS films are copies from that filming, for the most part. See the pdf file on this NLI page: http://www.nli.ie/en/parish-register.aspx

John Grenham and James G. Ryan also point to the NLI cut-off year as being the reason that RC register films stop at 1880. See the screenshots.

Sharon Carberry
Grenham p35, parish reg.jpg
Grenham p35, parish reg.jpg (60.2 KiB) Viewed 38079 times
Jas G Ryan, parish reg filming.jpg
Jas G Ryan, parish reg filming.jpg (38.46 KiB) Viewed 38078 times

Paddy Casey
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Re: Please help us locate Clare descendants we could meet there

Post by Paddy Casey » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:47 pm

smcarberry wrote:The choice of using 1880 as a cut-off date in the filming of RC parish registers in Ireland appears to have been a decision by the National Library of Ireland, which did the filming. LDS films are copies from that filming, for the most part. See the pdf file on this NLI page: http://www.nli.ie/en/parish-register.aspx

John Grenham and James G. Ryan also point to the NLI cut-off year as being the reason that RC register films stop at 1880. See the screenshots.

Sharon Carberry
Grenham p35, parish reg.jpg
Jas G Ryan, parish reg filming.jpg
As this is a very important topic of general interest but is not related to the title of this thread I have started a new thread.

Paddy

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