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 Post subject: tithes clare 1820s
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:43 pm 
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Would any person know how tithes were actually collected
in Clare in the 1820s?


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 Post subject: Re: tithes clare 1820s
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:31 pm 
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I think they were collected by Tithe Proctors. See the second paragraph here: https://www.historyireland.com/18th-19t ... in-castle/

Sheila


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 Post subject: Re: tithes clare 1820s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:32 am 
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Hi Matthew

It occurs to me that your question may be about the manner in which tithes were collected, rather than about who collected them. I really don’t know for sure, but I think payments were made at the house of the Tithe Proctor, so that he did not have to go about collecting them. In the case of rent owed to the landlord, I gather that it was paid at the house, or office of his agent on Gale Day (there were two Gale Days in the year) and there are a couple paintings that illustrate this. I imagine that tithes were paid once a year in a similar way, but to the clergyman, or his proctor, rather than to the landlord.
Here is a passage from The Tithe Proctor, by William Carleton, which describes some tithe-defaulters lining up to make their excuses to the Tithe Proctor, Mr. Purcell:
"The situation in which the parties stood, during this dialogue, was at the rear of the premises into which the proctor's office opened, and where the country people were always desired to wait. They stood at the end of the stable, adjoining a wall almost eight feet high, on the other side of which was the pig-sty….When John Purcel was seen in the office, the tithe defaulters, for such they were, went to the outside of the window, where they all stood until it became the turn of each to go in".

Sheila


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 Post subject: Re: tithes clare 1820s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:01 am 
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Hi Matthew

I’m not surprised that you wonder how tithes were collected – I dipped into The Strangers Gaze: Travels in County Clare 1534 – 1950 (Clasp Press 2004, ed Brian O Dalaigh)* to see if any travelers to Clare had anything to say about tithes and I came upon this comment by Rev. James Hall, who toured East Clare in 1812:
“There belongs to the bishopric a dean, archdeacon, vicar-general, chancellor, and many others, who all receive considerable revenues from it, but who are scarcely ever seen here, except when they come to receive the money. One item of the bishop’s income is the tenth of the eels caught in the river, at Killaloe” (p 159).
* http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... s_hall.htm

Now how on earth did anyone calculate that number of eels? The business of collecting tithes may not have been as straightforward as I’d thought.

Sheila


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 Post subject: Re: tithes clare 1820s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:55 am 
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Here are a couple newspaper notices from Co. Clare that confirm the existence of the Tithe Proctor. The first two are advertisements for a Tithe Proctor, or someone who will fulfill that role.

From Ennis Chronicle and Clare Advertiser, Thurs. July 18, 1805 (p. 1):
The Rectorial Tithes of Kilrush To Be Set, on such terms as may be agreed on. Application to be made to the Rev. George Gustavus Baker, at the Rectory, near Limerick; or the Rev. Robert Weldon, at Ennis: http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... y_1805.pdf

From Senan Scanlan’s book, ‘West and South Clare Newspaper Notes from c1800 to 1950’ : http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... _notes.htm.
1812 20th January (CJ). (Advertisement)
To be let.....The Impropriate Tithes.....of the Parish of Kilmurray
Ibrickane, as held by Francis Casey, Esq., and his representatives. Proposals to be made to the Earl of Egremont, No. 4, Grosvenor Place, London, and to Thomas Crowe, Esq., Ennis,

1821 22nd November (CJ).
The Tithe proctors of the Rev. A. Davoren and the Rev. J. Otway, were deprived of their tithe books a few days ago in the neighbourhood of Miltown Malbay: they received no personal injury, but were cautioned by the peasantry against coming to look for tithes for the future, as they were determined they said, not to pay any.

Sheila


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 Post subject: Re: tithes clare 1820s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:28 pm 
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Thanks Sheila for such a comprehensive follow up to my query.

I have been examining in detail the tithe applotment books for
the parishes of Killeely and Saint Munchin that cover
Meelick and the adjoining North Liberties of Limerick.
Holders of even one acre had to pay.

The exemption of grass land was so unfair to those
who had to set potatoes to survive.


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 Post subject: Re: tithes clare 1820s
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:04 am 
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Hi Forum members
Could someone discuss the notion of "landless" in relation to ancestors not mentioned in the Tithes or Griffiths please?
One researcher suggested to me that towns people were possibly not included in these surveys ?
Thanks, Moranding


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 Post subject: Re: tithes clare 1820s
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:18 am 
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People listed in the tithe applotment books constituted only a portion
of those occupying land. Some of them had sub-tenants of whom no record appears.
There was a lot of subletting in pre-Famine Ireland.


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 Post subject: Re: tithes clare 1820s
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:02 am 
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The National Archives of Ireland hold the surviving Tithe Applotment Books. The following link will take you to a fuller explanation of the Tithes:

http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarc ... /about.jsp

The Ejectment Books @ the Clare Library site give some details of those who may have lost their tenancy (due to failure to pay tithes). Also the Clare Court of Registry posting at the Library site give some insights into the "landless" and how they may have tried to gain a foothold on "commons".

My guess is that after the disaster of Cromwell, many "landless" ended up on what was left of the common land of the earlier clans and the termon lands. The Griffiths Valuations maps show how many people are often sharing small plots on "commons".

cheers, Kerry


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 Post subject: Re: tithes clare 1820s
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:22 am 
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Some of the people who were living in towns did pay tithes. For example, people living in Mill Street, Ennis, paid tithes: http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarc ... _00633.pdf

I think the reason these people were paying tithes was because it was a levy on tillage (not on pasture, which had been exempted by an act of 1735), and this meant that someone who had only a small plot of tillage (maybe potatoes) was liable for tithes.

Usually you get only one or two paragraphs on Tithes in history books on Ireland, but Gearóid Ó Tuathaigh gives a bit more in his book, Ireland Before The Famine 1798 – 1848 (Gill and Macmillan 1972). He explains why, although “the chorus of protests against the Tithe system was such a loud one”, abolishing it was not an easy matter for the Government of the day, because the income from tithes was the private property of the Established Church, with the same inalienable rights as any other form of private property – it was not the property of the Government - “Moreover, the fact that by the 1830s about one fifth of the total tithe revenues belonged to lay proprietors indicates that tithes had indeed changed hands as private property”.

Sheila


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